God's love, Free Will and some tough questions for anyone up for it.

[mykdsmomy]

 

It comes down to faith...trust...foolishness to many.

 

This sums it up beautifully! Thank you :grouphug:

[susankenny]

Hi Judy,

 

I've not read past your post to see the replies yet. I wanted to share an excerpt from a wonderful book by Oswald Chambers (Conformed to His Image) as it addresses your question specifically.

 

"God nowhere holds a man responsible for having inherited the disposition of sin any more than he is held responsible for being born. We have nothing to do with our birth or what we inherit, because we had no choice in either. A person will say, "If I am not responsible for having a wrong disposition, what I am I held responsible for?" God holds each one responsible for not allowing Jesus Christ to deliver him from the wrong disposition when he sees that is what He came to do. A man gets the seal of condemnation when he sees the light and prefers the darkness (John 3:19)."

 

 

The entire book is absolutely phenomenal and addresses many tough questions. Hope this snippet helps though.

 

Love,

Susan

 

 

ETA - oh the explanation above follows Oswald Chamber explaining that only Adam & Christ were creations of God, while we are all actually pro-creations & through our birth, our lineage (hereditary) of sin is passed from generation to generation, etc. I hope that makes sense, as it's hard to sum up a book in a sentence or two.

Edited February 8, 2011 by susankenny

[LittleIzumi]

As a fellow LDS'er, I'm going to disagree with how you interpreted the scripture I put in bold. ;) It's not "get as close as you can, and then Jesus makes up the rest. We're supposed to try, BUT we will never be able to accomplish much without Him. We are to *include Him* in our efforts to keep the commandments, not keep the commandments relying only on our own strength, and then have him pick up the rest. It's to be a partnership, not a relay. ;) When I read that scripture, to understand it better, I sometimes read it as "for it is by God that we are saved, after all the medical intervention we can do". When someone has a pneumonia or cancer, or any other illness, it is God who heals us. We still take medicines, do chemo, do whatever we can within our own power to facilitate healing, but God gets the credit for the success, because HE made those medical interventions possible. Because HE alone can heal us.

 

/LDS Tanget. ;)

 

:confused: I never said we didn't, lol. Without God my spirit & body wouldn't even exist or be breathing. He is always present in everything we do. I just meant it's not grace=blanket pass to do anything or works=we can save ourselves. We have to keep the commandments that we know as best as we can, and to make up the remaining distance to God we never could reach ourselves, Christ sacrificed Himself in the Atonement. :)

 

/LDS tangent #2 :tongue_smilie:

Edited February 8, 2011 by LittleIzumi

[LittleIzumi]

In my experience, if your instincts are telling you there's something wrong with the world, they're usually right. However one views God, he gave us minds and emotions for a reason, and if they're screaming at you, saying, "No, that's not right!" it's for a reason.

 

I agree, although I'm with a PP that those are the from God, telling us something is just. not. right. For me I have that with the idea of infants going to hell (if not baptized). My mind twists inside out even trying to comprehend that. I have never been able to believe that for even a single moment, and my religion does not agree with that either so I don't have to really wrestle with that. I can't imagine if I did. I know some do believe in that. :)

 

Although I know that we have finite, linear little brains & there is absolutely no way we can comprehend the tiniest fraction of what God does or how or why. (But it's human nature to try.)

Edited February 8, 2011 by LittleIzumi

[Heidi]

But why did He have to choose any suffering at all? Why not just make us with no ability to feel jealousy or anger? Why not just make us with the ability to feel love? Again this goes back to the robot argument but my bottom line is: If God loves us and wants us to be with Him forever, then why didn't he make us so? Why Why Why did he give us sin and weakness and pain? Why not just skip right to heaven? He knows that not all of us will choose Him and yet He still allows us this free will that is detrimental to some souls? We could all only know love and that wonderful feeling because instead of making us as we are, He could have made us with pure love in our hearts. (I hope I'm making sense here and please know I'm not arguing with you or anyone else here, I'm just trying to understand this as best as I can)

 

 

I love Gooblink's response. It really does come down to faith and we can't have all the answers here and now.

 

However, just some more to think about...

 

How about the law of opposites? If there were no pain, how would you know joy? If there were no pain, how could there be pleasure? If there were no sin, would righteousness exist? If there were no hate, could there be love? And if not, what is the point of our existence? What is the point of God?

 

Maybe some do believe that only love can exist without hate, etc., and that there really is no need of opposition. I don't know.

 

I hope this doesn't offend anybody that I post this, but in the Book of Mormon it reads,

 

22. "And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy."

 

2 Nephi 2:22-25

 

If fact, most the chapter talks about the law of opposites and free agency. But I love that last sentence, "Adam fell that men might be; and men are that they might have joy" Yes, we all have agency, both the righteous and the wicked. However the purpose of it all, the end of our creation, is to have joy. You may not agree with that sentiment, but I thought I'd throw it out there to ponder.

 

It's my personal belief that those that come to this earth and only experience great suffering at the hands of evil men, it will be made up to them in the next life because of the atonement of Christ. Christ suffered for all, not only for sin, but all the pain and suffering we would feel during this earthly existence. He has sufficient balm to heal, whether in this life or in the life to come.

[goldberry]

23And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

 

 

Just curious, why would they have had no children, when they were given the commandment to fill the earth before they fell into sin? They would have fulfilled God's original purpose, only without sin and the consequences of it.

[LittleIzumi]

Just curious, why would they have had no children, when they were given the commandment to fill the earth before they fell into sin? They would have fulfilled God's original purpose, only without sin and the consequences of it.

 

From an LDS teacher's manual:

 

"Have class members read Genesis 1:28 (or Moses 2:28) and Genesis 2:16–17 (or Moses 3:16–17) to discover two commandments given to Adam and Eve by Heavenly Father: to multiply and replenish (fill) the earth and to refrain from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Explain that Adam and Eve could not keep both these commandments. If they chose to eat the fruit, they would be cast out of the Garden of Eden. But if they did not eat the fruit and remained in the garden, they would not be able to have children (to “multiply and replenish the earth”). Because the Garden of Eden was a place of innocence, while Adam and Eve lived there they could not change or progress in any way, including having children (see 2 Nephi 2:22–23)."

followed by a quote from an apostle

"To bring the plan of happiness to fruition [fulfillment], God issued to Adam and Eve the first commandment ever given to mankind. It was a commandment to beget children. A law was explained to them. Should they eat from ‘the tree of the knowledge of good and evil’ (Genesis 2:17), their bodies would change; mortality and eventual death would come upon them. But partaking of that fruit was prerequisite to their parenthood” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1993, 46; or Ensign, Nov. 1993, 34)."

[Wayfaring Stranger]

We have free will but he has ultimate control over everything. He has the ability to change our will but he chooses not to. Are you saying that he doesn't have the ability to do that? (I just want to clarify because maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying :001_smile: )

 

 

Yes, I am saying that God does not have the ability to change our will. That is what "free will" means, that it is ours to do with as we choose and it cannot be controlled or changed by God (or anyone else). God can guide it and influence it but He cannot change it or control it. There is a story about a skeptic who asked a monk "If God can do anything can he make a rock so big that even he cannot move it?" The monk answered "Yes, the rock of the human will."

 

If this were not true, than it would not matter that Jesus did the "will of the Father" even though he was fully man. He had a human will just like every person (He also is fully God, this is a great mystery). He had to choose to do the will of the Father. In the same way we have to choose to be like Christ, to choose God's will over our own. But God cannot change our will.

 

In the same way we cannot control our children's will. We guide and influence them by teaching them that moving cars are not safe but when they turn 16 they are still more likely to be killed by a moving car than anything else. Is the answer then not to have kids, or have them and not love them. No at some point we give the keys to the kids we love but we cannot control their will, even to save them from death.

[Gooblink]

Yes, I am saying that God does not have the ability to change our will. That is what "free will" means, that it is ours to do with as we choose and it cannot be controlled or changed by God (or anyone else). God can guide it and influence it but He cannot change it or control it. There is a story about a skeptic who asked a monk "If God can do anything can he make a rock so big that even he cannot move it?" The monk answered "Yes, the rock of the human will."

 

If this were not true, than it would not matter that Jesus did the "will of the Father" even though he was fully man. He had a human will just like every person (He also is fully God, this is a great mystery). He had to choose to do the will of the Father. In the same way we have to choose to be like Christ, to choose God's will over our own. But God cannot change our will.

 

In the same way we cannot control our children's will. We guide and influence them by teaching them that moving cars are not safe but when they turn 16 they are still more likely to be killed by a moving car than anything else. Is the answer then not to have kids, or have them and not love them. No at some point we give the keys to the kids we love but we cannot control their will, even to save them from death.

 

Are you saying God cannot because He hasn't the power? Or is this a "cannot" meaning his self-imposed moratorium on human will changing?

 

I do believe we have the choice to do His will, but the Bible is full of examples where God hardens or softens hearts...maybe that's the influence part you mentioned?

 

I'll have to mull this one over a bit - find a quiet space with my Bible and a chai latte. :)

[LittleIzumi]

I remember reading this essay, Let's Create a Perfect World, a couple of years ago, and wonder if it might be interesting for you to read now. http://www.frederica.com/writings/lets-create-a-perfect-world.html

 

LOVE!!

[Mergath]

I remember reading this essay, Let's Create a Perfect World, a couple of years ago, and wonder if it might be interesting for you to read now. http://www.frederica.com/writings/lets-create-a-perfect-world.html

 

I don't think that anyone expects a perfect world where dogs never die and people don't get angry. But a world without widespread famine has to be possible. God certainly could have more evenly distributed the natural resources of this world without violating the very laws of physics. A world without AIDS would have been nice, too, and is also very possible. Or how about a world where no child is born with a fatal illness and dies after minutes or hours or months of agony? Why not a world where no one is born with developmental delays so severe they are never able to care for themselves?

 

(Just for the record, if anyone tries to use the excuse that AIDS orphans and the severely handicapped are here solely for the purpose of teaching us rich Westerners about kindness or some such nonsense, I really will throw up.)

 

Also, if a world filled with so much pain and misery is a necessity, that still doesn't explain why God feels the need to punish non-believers for eternity afterwards, as well. Surely this world is punishment enough for many people.

[Gooblink]

I don't think that anyone expects a perfect world where dogs never die and people don't get angry. But a world without widespread famine has to be possible. God certainly could have more evenly distributed the natural resources of this world without violating the very laws of physics. A world without AIDS would have been nice, too, and is also very possible. Or how about a world where no child is born with a fatal illness and dies after minutes or hours or months of agony? Why not a world where no one is born with developmental delays so severe they are never able to care for themselves?

 

(Just for the record, if anyone tries to use the excuse that AIDS orphans and the severely handicapped are here solely for the purpose of teaching us rich Westerners about kindness or some such nonsense, I really will throw up.)

 

Also, if a world filled with so much pain and misery is a necessity, that still doesn't explain why God feels the need to punish non-believers for eternity afterwards, as well. Surely this world is punishment enough for many people.

 

Famine is the result of government and corporate (human) corruption.

 

I think a case can be made that most diseases have roots in some human behavior, including environmental corruption.

 

It hit me today - you know why there's suffering? Because humans decided they didn't need God running the show. I think it was C.S. Lewis who put it that, sooner or later, either you say to God, "Let Thy will be done," or He says to you, "Let Thy will be done." God's given the world over to itself so we can run it the way we see fit. (Romans, read all about it)

 

Incidentally, it's the people who are suffering who cry out to God, not those of us who live a pretty comfortable life on the sidelines. Maybe He allows suffering not so much so you can feel compassion, but so that those who realize they need God will see His power.

 

As to the bolded - that doesn't bear out scripturally. No doubt Satan believes in God, yet he's facing eternal "punishment." It takes something other than disbelief to be sentenced to eternal separation from God. One must blatantly reject God, and in order to that you've gotta believe He's there, right? Why would God punish those who don't know Him, when faith itself is a gift from God?

 

Just some thoughts I'm noodlin'.

[sbgrace]

OP, upthread (I think way upthread) someone linked a podcast about OT war and violence. This one. It's worth listening to I think if you haven't yet. The end will, at least, give you a different perspective I believe on your questions (though perhaps already expressed--I haven't followed every post). It's worth the time I think--the end is especially relevant. It addresses the very things you originally asked I believe and does it biblically and with church historical teachings in mind.

 

I don't think that anyone expects a perfect world where dogs never die and people don't get angry. But a world without widespread famine has to be possible. God certainly could have more evenly distributed the natural resources of this world without violating the very laws of physics. A world without AIDS would have been nice, too, and is also very possible. Or how about a world where no child is born with a fatal illness and dies after minutes or hours or months of agony? Why not a world where no one is born with developmental delays so severe they are never able to care for themselves?

 

(Just for the record, if anyone tries to use the excuse that AIDS orphans and the severely handicapped are here solely for the purpose of teaching us rich Westerners about kindness or some such nonsense, I really will throw up.) I'll throw up with you! I've never heard that and I'm sorry you have. Yuck and twisted. Fortunately, I don't think that's a common view. It's certainly not based on any teaching in scripture! I think the most common view, which you might not like any better, is well expressed here. It's only 12 minutes. I think it's sound teaching. Again, it may not sit any better with you! I've had a share of suffering. I've had a lot of why me, why my child, why my family. I'm not comparing my lot in life to the lot of others--some will have it better and many worse. But most of us have darkness and some seem to have more than others. I think, were Christ here on earth, he would heal these things as was his pattern on earth. When He is in the heart of a person (really in there) they alleviate suffering in others with all they have as well. True believers serve all rather than condemn and judge. I think suffering and pain on earth will be a momentary experience compared to eternity. That is my hope and belief.

 

Also, if a world filled with so much pain and misery is a necessity, that still doesn't explain why God feels the need to punish non-believers for eternity afterwards, as well. Surely this world is punishment enough for many people.

 

I think the bible is very clear that God doesn't want anyone to perish. I don't know what your previous exposure to Christian thinking has been (sounds, um, horrible from what you've posted) but it's possible what you find so distasteful is the teaching of some mistaken people rather than the truth. FWIW, I will not make a hard stand on how the end will play out because I don't think it's entirely clear. I believe those who "perish" in whatever sense that occurs will have decided and desired to be there rather than with God. Perhaps the "there" is the way those people (assuming there are those people) will experience God's love in fact as has been expressed on this thread already I think.

Edited February 9, 2011 by sbgrace

[goldberry]

From an LDS teacher's manual:

 

"Have class members read Genesis 1:28 (or Moses 2:28) and Genesis 2:16–17 (or Moses 3:16–17) to discover two commandments given to Adam and Eve by Heavenly Father: to multiply and replenish (fill) the earth and to refrain from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Explain that Adam and Eve could not keep both these commandments. If they chose to eat the fruit, they would be cast out of the Garden of Eden. But if they did not eat the fruit and remained in the garden, they would not be able to have children (to “multiply and replenish the earthâ€). "

 

Thanks for your response.

[LittleIzumi]

As to the bolded - that doesn't bear out scripturally. No doubt Satan believes in God, yet he's facing eternal "punishment." It takes something other than disbelief to be sentenced to eternal separation from God. One must blatantly reject God, and in order to that you've gotta believe He's there, right? Why would God punish those who don't know Him, when faith itself is a gift from God?

 

Just some thoughts I'm noodlin'.

:iagree:

[Celia]

mykdsmomy,

 

One thing you might want to ponder is, why did God make people? Not just "why did he make us the way that he did".

 

If we believe that God made man solely for the purpose of saving us (knowing that he could see the beginning from the end), then really, the plan didn't work out so well, did it? Especially if one believes in a torturous hell. There is another reason!

 

 

Here's a list of Bible references to look up... see what you make of it.

 

1. Num. 14:21 cp. Ex. 33:18 to see what that 'glory' is.

2. Isaiah 45:18

3. Ps. 115:16

4. Gen. 1:26-27

5. Gen 2:7 (note.. dust of earth + breath of life = living soul. Reversal of the process is Job 34:12-15)

6. Gen. 3:15 (promise of redemption)

7. Gen. 13:12-17 (promise to Abraham of a land and a seed)

8. 2 Sam. 7:12-17 (seed would rule eternally over the promised land)

9: Matt. 1:1 cp Gal. 3:26-29

10. Heb 11:39 Abraham hasn't received the promise yet

 

Story's not quite done here, but I was trying to give you a brief summary of the plan and purpose of God as revealed in the Bible (you initially said you weren't taught the Bible), and I promised myself I'd stop at 10 to not be overwhelming! I don't want to comment too much on the verses I posted, because the best way to understanding is to work through it.

[lionfamily1999]

Ok, well as a mother, I have unconditional love for my children (as God has for his). I know how scary the world can be and I want to protect them from harm and from making huge mistakes. I would stop my child from running in the street because the consequence could be death.

Yes, but eventually even we have to relinquish control to our children. Have you ever let your child get hurt? Say, they keep trying to pull something off the table or tug a cat tail, or some other bit of mischeif and no matter how many times you say not to and explain why they keep going back. Do you ever let them get hurt? Sometimes we're all hard headed and sometimes pain is the only consequence we'll pay attention to.

How can our faith teach us that God loves us so unconditionally yet if we don't choose Him, we will live eternity in hell, lake of fire, eternal ****ation?

I can't imagine telling my child that if they make a mistake, they will spend eternity in a place that would be painful and agonizing for them...especially if I knew I could prevent that.

 

What if your child chooses to leave your house and chooses to live a life of pain? You can't control them, you can't force them to do what you KNOW is better for them. All you can do is give them the truth and hope they'll live by it.

 

Rejecting God is not a mistake, like an oopsie (I mean it IS a mistake, but not like spilling milk or tripping or miscalculating). It's a mistake, like believing the scummy character that tries to convince hapless victims to trust him.

God knows better than we do the horrors of hell. How can a God who claims to love us unconditionally set us up for such eternal pain? I realize this all goes back to free will and robots (this is how it was always explained to me) but He still "programmed" us in a way. He designed us so of course there is a "robot" element to us. I have had people say "Well if you didn't have free will then you would just be like a puppet/robot and would have no choice...God loves you so much He gives you a choice and wants you to choose Him". I get that but why, if He loves us so much and knows the horrors that await us if we don't choose Him, would he not protect us? I would much rather be a robot who is blissfully happy and spends eternity with Him than a human that could screw up and wind up spending eternity in hell.

 

One more thing. I keep hearing "we're all sinners in need of Christ". Ok, I get that....but God created us! He created us to be sinners in need of Christ so why do I have to go around saying I'm wretched without Him? I didn't ask to be here. I didn't ask to be wretched. God created me as wretched (in this line of thinking).

Being lost without God, being a 'wretch,' is a fact, like being thirsty is being without water. It isn't that God made us sinners or wretched, it's that He gave us a choice and we chose sin, that removed us from Him and now we're wretched. No one asks to be stuck in the wilderness without water, but that doesn't negate the thirst.

 

I am just putting all this out there and I realize it's raw and probably offensive to some. (I'm seriously feeling like lightening bolts are about to strike me :001_huh: ). I just need some perspective on this.

 

I have to say that I praise God for my many many blessings. I want to spend eternity with Him. I just don't understand some of the contradictions I am hearing/seeing. Maybe I don't have a strong understanding of the bible and am using common sense to try and figure this all out?

 

:bigear:

I think you're stuck in a common place. :grouphug:

[silliness7]

Thank you! The funny thing is lately, I've been drawn back to my Catholic roots a bit....but even more interested in EO.

 

I don't know how to find those social groups..:001_huh: I've tried but for some reason I don't see them. Is there a link?

 

Also, I know what you're saying about us choosing to be apart from Him (like a child who goes to their room) but my bottom line is that HE created us and has the power to save us from ourselves but gives US that choice when we are sinners by nature (His design). The love I have for my child, regardless of how much they rejected me, would never stop me from protecting them. I would never give them an ultimatum or choosing me or choosing an eternity of agony. Even if they rejected me, I would still want them to be safe. (I hope I'm making sense here).

 

While you're researching RC or EO I would recommend researching theology behind the Protestant Reformation. Most western evangelical churches have this concept of "free will" like you are describing and is troubling you but protestants did not always think like this. And many still don't. The Bible speaks of predestination and election. Since it is free will that is bothering you I would start there. A pp mentioned Romans. I 2nd that recommendation.

[silliness7]

Quoting:

"But why did He have to choose any suffering at all? Why not just make us with no ability to feel jealousy or anger? Why not just make us with the ability to feel love? Again this goes back to the robot argument but my bottom line is: If God loves us and wants us to be with Him forever, then why didn't he make us so? Why Why Why did he give us sin and weakness and pain? Why not just skip right to heaven? He knows that not all of us will choose Him and yet He still allows us this free will that is detrimental to some souls? We could all only know love and that wonderful feeling because instead of making us as we are, He could have made us with pure love in our hearts. (I hope I'm making sense here and please know I'm not arguing with you or anyone else here, I'm just trying to understand this as best as I can)"

 

I don't have all the answers, by any means. But I think the place to start making sense of it all is to realize that it isn't about MAN. It is about CHRIST and HIS GLORY. The entire redemption scenario isn't ultimately about redeeming man it is ultimately about glorifying Christ...glorifying Christ. I think that theology gets skewed when we make it all about man. What's in it for man? How is that fair to man?

 

Human beings are born looking out for their own interests so this is a normal, typical trap to fall into. That is the chief characteristic of our sin nature, after all. Men are sinners and men hate God. Men have no claim whatsoever upon God. BUT...Christ who is not a sinner, who IS God and LOVES the Father perfectly did not look out for his own interests when he gave up heaven, suffered through earth, death, and hell in order to redeem people who HATED him. What human being would do that?

 

Not only that, but through Christ's resurrection we see that God has power over death and sin and broke that power. Through Christ's ascension we see that Christ is in heaven ruling the universe. He has been glorified and we glory in that. His glory is our glory. Without it, we have nothing even if we have the whole world. The glory of the world is nothing compared to Christ's glory.

 

Yes there is great suffering on earth. But Christ entered into our suffering, willingly to redeem a people who would glory in his glory. Christ suffered. The picture of God is incomplete without Christ. Christ shows us what God is like. He isn't sadisticly striking people with horrors and diseases and suffering. He got off his throne and suffered and died and went to hell. The perfect God of the universe did that. How can it be? Praise be to God!

 

ETA: Also think about the Garden of Eden. We think about it as the perfect place. It was not perfect. There was one thing wrong with it. Man could fall. The perfect, sinless man Adam when given the choice between GOD and HIMSELF chose HIMSELF. Free will is NOT a good thing. Think about heaven. Will we have the ability to fall into sin in heaven? Absolutely not! The Garden of Eden was never intended to be the end all be all. It had a fatal flaw. Heaven with our suffering Savior and redeemer is what it's all about. But how could the Savior suffer and how could he redeem without man being lost to God? Again, it goes back to a perfect God demonstrating his perfect attributes so that he can be glorified as he ought to be.

Edited February 9, 2011 by silliness7

[justamouse]

I hope so too. I have some thoughts but I'm not feeling like I can articulate them well this late at night and I'm not sure I'm brave enough to do it anyway!

 

I will say that I do not think the Western Christianity understanding on this sort of thing is whole. Your questions (so common, I hope you know that these thoughts are common) and the typical answers I've heard come from that perspective. My upbringing and experience was from that perspective myself but the more I learn and the more I study about the early church particularly, the more I realize the perspective is skewed.

:iagree:

 

Lack of sufficient answers to questions like this is what led me down the path of EO.

[Mergath]

Famine is the result of government and corporate (human) corruption.

 

I think a case can be made that most diseases have roots in some human behavior, including environmental corruption.

 

It hit me today - you know why there's suffering? Because humans decided they didn't need God running the show. I think it was C.S. Lewis who put it that, sooner or later, either you say to God, "Let Thy will be done," or He says to you, "Let Thy will be done." God's given the world over to itself so we can run it the way we see fit. (Romans, read all about it)

 

Incidentally, it's the people who are suffering who cry out to God, not those of us who live a pretty comfortable life on the sidelines. Maybe He allows suffering not so much so you can feel compassion, but so that those who realize they need God will see His power.

 

As to the bolded - that doesn't bear out scripturally. No doubt Satan believes in God, yet he's facing eternal "punishment." It takes something other than disbelief to be sentenced to eternal separation from God. One must blatantly reject God, and in order to that you've gotta believe He's there, right? Why would God punish those who don't know Him, when faith itself is a gift from God?

 

Just some thoughts I'm noodlin'.

 

Yes, if you live in modern-day North Korea, then famine is most definitely the result of a corrupt regime. However, there have been many, many famines throughout history that were the result of nothing more than a lack of rain, or the soil becoming too salty, or a hundred other environmental factors that people have no control over.

 

Same with disease. Millions upon millions of people throughout history have died of disease through no fault of their own, or of any person on Earth's. Where was your God then? He certainly could have made a world where that didn't happen while still allowing us to make our own decisions.

 

There's suffering because we live in a world governed by natural laws, where everything is impermanent and pain and death are a part of life. Personally, I find that comforting- believing in the Christian god and knowing he allowed these things to happen wouldn't exactly endear him to me. I can't believe any beneficient creator would design a world where one person lives and dies in luxury, but another person has to decide which of her children to let starve to death so she can continue to feed the others.

 

Are you saying that God allows so many to suffer so that the rest of us will realize we need God? Sorry, that still triggers my upchuck reflex. I refuse to believe that all those people in pain are just convenient props for the rest of us to ponder.

 

Everyone is rejecting someone's version of God.

[Mergath]

 

I think the bible is very clear that God doesn't want anyone to perish. I don't know what your previous exposure to Christian thinking has been (sounds, um, horrible from what you've posted) but it's possible what you find so distasteful is the teaching of some mistaken people rather than the truth. FWIW, I will not make a hard stand on how the end will play out because I don't think it's entirely clear. I believe those who "perish" in whatever sense that occurs will have decided and desired to be there rather than with God. Perhaps the "there" is the way those people (assuming there are those people) will experience God's love in fact as has been expressed on this thread already I think.

 

Yes, my exposure has, overall, been quite negative.

 

One thing I wonder about is the people, like me, who are raised surrounded by, shall we say, poor examples of Christians who make the entire institution seem horrendous and inhumane. If the Christian God actually is up there, do all of us- and I'm sure there are many- who have only heard a twisted and repulsive version of Christianity end up in the eternal BBQ? I'm not terribly worried, but it is something that crosses my mind from time to time.

[LittleIzumi]

Yes, if you live in modern-day North Korea, then famine is most definitely the result of a corrupt regime. However, there have been many, many famines throughout history that were the result of nothing more than a lack of rain, or the soil becoming too salty, or a hundred other environmental factors that people have no control over.

 

Same with disease. Millions upon millions of people throughout history have died of disease through no fault of their own, or of any person on Earth's. Where was your God then? He certainly could have made a world where that didn't happen while still allowing us to make our own decisions.

 

There's suffering because we live in a world governed by natural laws, where everything is impermanent and pain and death are a part of life. Personally, I find that comforting- believing in the Christian god and knowing he allowed these things to happen wouldn't exactly endear him to me. I can't believe any beneficient creator would design a world where one person lives and dies in luxury, but another person has to decide which of her children to let starve to death so she can continue to feed the others.

 

Are you saying that God allows so many to suffer so that the rest of us will realize we need God? Sorry, that still triggers my upchuck reflex. I refuse to believe that all those people in pain are just convenient props for the rest of us to ponder.

 

Everyone is rejecting someone's version of God.

 

TBH, everyone dies, period. It's just returning home to Him. Whether they die from famine, or from disease (exotic or coronary), or from old age, we're still going the same place in essentially the same fashion. This Earth thing is pretty temporary no matter how you look at it. As for the question on the next post that I didn't quote, I don't claim to know exactly, besides ascribing to a very individualized judgment--He knows your heart and what you know/believe and why you chose what you did. :thumbup1:

[Wayfaring Stranger]

Yes, my exposure has, overall, been quite negative.

 

One thing I wonder about is the people, like me, who are raised surrounded by, shall we say, poor examples of Christians who make the entire institution seem horrendous and inhumane. If the Christian God actually is up there, do all of us- and I'm sure there are many- who have only heard a twisted and repulsive version of Christianity end up in the eternal BBQ? I'm not terribly worried, but it is something that crosses my mind from time to time.

 

God is the only Judge. In my opinion the fixation with heaven and hell in our time is unhealthy. And one of the most destructive believes (errors IMHO) in history is that we can know who is in and who is out. I do not even know that I will avoid the "eternal BBQ." Or even what it means.

 

From my reading of scripture those who profess to be a child of God will be judge more harshly. But as I said there is only one Judge and it is not any of us.

[Gooblink]

Are you saying that God allows so many to suffer so that the rest of us will realize we need God? Sorry, that still triggers my upchuck reflex. I refuse to believe that all those people in pain are just convenient props for the rest of us to ponder.

 

Everyone is rejecting someone's version of God.

 

No, I'm saying that people who are suffering are the ones who typically cry out to God for relief and when we realize (through our own suffering) we need God, He demonstrates His power.

 

Hey, I still allow for the possibility I'm wrong, and that all my spiritual experiences have natural explanations. I don't believe it, but it's possible.

 

Won't know for sure 'til we board the mystery train, eh?

 

:001_smile:

[sbgrace]

Yes, my exposure has, overall, been quite negative.

 

One thing I wonder about is the people, like me, who are raised surrounded by, shall we say, poor examples of Christians who make the entire institution seem horrendous and inhumane. If the Christian God actually is up there, do all of us- and I'm sure there are many- who have only heard a twisted and repulsive version of Christianity end up in the eternal BBQ? I'm not terribly worried, but it is something that crosses my mind from time to time.

 

I mentioned that I don't feel comfortable making a dogmatic statement about how it will play out in the end because I don't think it's clear enough to do that. But I believe, if it matters, that to end up apart from God (eternal BBQ :tongue_smilie: is one of the concepts I think people run off with...not clear at all) you would decide to reject His free offer to be with him instead. When a specific person makes that choice exactly I don't know. But I think it's a choice the person makes--not something thrust upon them from a vindictive God. God is love. True love never fails--not yours, mine, and certainly not God's. If Christ's painful sacrifice couldn't bring all who desired into God's love it would be love failing. I suspect the people you've had contact with had beliefs that betray a lack of understanding of scripture and early church teaching both. Human ideas introduced late in human history. Sad for them and I believe sad to God. I'm sorry you've had so much contact with unloving people who didn't know the truth themselves. From my perspective God knows what you've experienced as I believe God knows all about (and loves) each of us.

Edited February 10, 2011 by sbgrace