missesd Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I got a chance to look at WWE last night at Barnes and Noble. To me it just looked a thicker and perhaps more in depth copy of the FLL. I am looking for something to help my son and daughter, who are 6 and 8, work on and perfect their penmanship. Is this really what WWE is for?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuckabella Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 WWE is for writing, FLL is for grammar. IF you looked at FLL 1&2 combined in one book, that was out before WWE was published. The newer versions of FLL have the narration, dictation and copywork taken out so as not to be redundant when done with WWE. FLL is meant to be done orally and WWE written. Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I got a chance to look at WWE last night at Barnes and Noble. To me it just looked a thicker and perhaps more in depth copy of the FLL. I am looking for something to help my son and daughter, who are 6 and 8, work on and perfect their penmanship. Is this really what WWE is for?? WWE is for the composition aspect of "writing." It's not for the penmanship aspect. Although, penmanship can be worked on via the copywork in WWE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missesd Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share Posted January 30, 2011 WWE is for the composition aspect of "writing." It's not for the penmanship aspect. Although, penmanship can be worked on via the copywork in WWE. I am overwhelmed by all the LA... and I think my ADD 8 yr old is going to spend hours crying... Right now we are doing FLL. It's our first year doing the "Classical" method, so I wanted to ease everyone in. As my teens keep telling me, homeschooling was supposed to mean less hours of school :confused: So now I have: Spelling Grammar Writing- penmanship Writing- composition And Reading.... ?????????? LLATL is sounding better and better every dang day :( I just want to cry, but I want to do this right, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In2why Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I have both and I feel that WWE is redundant and wish I hadn't wasted our money on it. We copy the poetry that we are working on or other selections from subjects. They narrate oral reading that we do in History and as for dictation, I use the phrases and sentences from AAS or out of his readers. I think WWE just adds another book and subject and I like to streamline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 If penmanship is what you need, look for a handwriting program like Handwriting Without Tears. WWE and FLL are not intended for what you are asking. I will say I felt WWE was redundant to SOTW with the AG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lulubelle Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I do not think WWE is redundant at all. It is extremely important and very different than FLL. The most important part of WWE is for the child to learn to narrate/summarize something they have read or heard read to them and begin to format that into a written form. It is the building blocks to writing! Very, very important. Do not skip it. FLL teaches the parts of the sentence and english grammar and structure. There is some copywork in the older version of FLL, but very little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I am overwhelmed by all the LA... and I think my ADD 8 yr old is going to spend hours crying... Right now we are doing FLL. It's our first year doing the "Classical" method, so I wanted to ease everyone in. As my teens keep telling me, homeschooling was supposed to mean less hours of school :confused: So now I have: Spelling Grammar Writing- penmanship Writing- composition And Reading.... ?????????? LLATL is sounding better and better every dang day :( I just want to cry, but I want to do this right, too. Well, I can't speak from the experience of having more than two children, but I will say that I find that the further along I go, the easier it gets to teach these individual aspects. And I know different people here find different ways of incorporating them into other things. I just read a comment that said FLL has taken out the composition parts and is all oral now - have you tried that? I didn't know the newer versions were like that. The oral grammar in FLL doesn't take very long each day. Also, you might try teaching whoever needs the penmanship practice how to make the letters, and then having him/her practice during (WWE or on your own) copywork, instead of using a separate penmanship "program." Another idea you might like, if you want to use WWE for composition, is to just use the instructions from the Instructor manual. I found it easier to figure out what and how to teach, than to go step by step through workbooks. Hopefully some others will have other ideas for you. Hang in there! It won't all come together at once, but you'll get things figured out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homemama2 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I think my ADD 8 yr old is going to spend hours crying Then it IS too much. Just because some people use 'x' curriculum, does not make it best for YOUR family. How is your child's penmenship? If they know how to neatly print their letters (or write in cursive, if you're doing cursive), then the copywork in WWE is where they practice their penmenship. If the child needs to learn to form the letters, then do just penmenship until they can form the letters, and then move to copywork. For my eight year old, I tell him that whatever writing he is doing that day (spelling or whatever), that needs to be in his best handwriting (this IS his penmenship). And if I know he has done his limit in writing for the day, then we do grammar and spelling orally. Also every subject does not have to be done every day. You could do grammar 3 days a week, and penmenship/copywork the other two, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In2why Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I do not think WWE is redundant at all. It is extremely important and very different than FLL. The most important part of WWE is for the child to learn to narrate/summarize something they have read or heard read to them and begin to format that into a written form. It is the building blocks to writing! Very, very important. Do not skip it. FLL teaches the parts of the sentence and english grammar and structure. There is some copywork in the older version of FLL, but very little. But if you do narrations, both oral and written in any of your other subjects, like history or science then it can be. I find it more natural to incorportate narrations in subjects we are already studying instead of buying and using another book. But different people enjoy and use different things that work for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I will say I felt WWE was redundant to SOTW with the AG. I must be missing something- what does WWE have to do with SOTW? I can see WWE being a little redundant with FLL if one does the copywork/dictation/narration exercises in the latter. But SOTW isn't LA but history. :confused::confused::confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missesd Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 Then it IS too much. Just because some people use 'x' curriculum, does not make it best for YOUR family. How is your child's penmenship? If they know how to neatly print their letters (or write in cursive, if you're doing cursive), then the copywork in WWE is where they practice their penmenship. If the child needs to learn to form the letters, then do just penmenship until they can form the letters, and then move to copywork. For my eight year old, I tell him that whatever writing he is doing that day (spelling or whatever), that needs to be in his best handwriting (this IS his penmenship). And if I know he has done his limit in writing for the day, then we do grammar and spelling orally. Also every subject does not have to be done every day. You could do grammar 3 days a week, and penmenship/copywork the other two, for example. They both can form their letters, but their penmanship is very sloppy. Maybe that's normal and I shouldn't concerned?? I like the idea up above too... thank you :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missesd Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 If penmanship is what you need, look for a handwriting program like Handwriting Without Tears. WWE and FLL are not intended for what you are asking. I will say I felt WWE was redundant to SOTW with the AG. What is AG?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeaganS Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 What is AG?? It's the activity guide that goes with SOTW. It sounds like you might benefit from reading the essay at the beginning of the book. It explains the thought process behind WWE. Here's a copy of it in case you didn't: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/media/downloads/pdfsamples/wwesample.pdf You could also listen to the writing lectures that SWB has put out, they pretty much say what's in this essay, but in a little more detail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missesd Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 It's the activity guide that goes with SOTW. Ohhh, I have that, just in PDF form. I love it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRmommy Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I don't have any experience with either as my son is just 4.5 years old, but I ran across this youtube video with SWB that I thought was helpful to understand this history behind FLL and WWE. Hope this helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 We do FLL and WWE and skip the copywork portion of the FLL lesson (referring to levels 1 and 2 of FLL) because copywork is covered in WWE. FLL takes about 5-10 minutes a day and contains 100 lessons in levels and 1 and 2, so it may be done 3 times a week. WWE is a more stringent and demanding program than FLL for my boys so I am mindful of this and have worked at a level below the child's grade level as needed. No need to make anyone cry or frustrate them to the point that they are not learning. WWE is intended to be used 4 times a week but can be adjusted as needed. We double up lessons on some days. Most handwriting programs can be done in a few minutes a day and don't have to be done daily. We use A Reason for Handwriting, and my boys are responsible for working through the book in a diligent manner, doing the required work...or they can finish in the summer - their choice. I know these choices can be very overwhelming at first, but in time you will find a good fit for you and your dc.:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChandlerMom Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 They both can form their letters, but their penmanship is very sloppy. Maybe that's normal and I shouldn't concerned?? I like the idea up above too... thank you :) Good penmanship is what happened when I wasn't looking! Seriously. My 7.5yo had average-to-lousy penmanship, then Nov-Dec we were focussed on other subjects and didn't do a lick of work (and I mean ANY at all) of handwriting or dictation and little writing. Her handwriting was on my "to do list" that I never got around to do! :lol: Then last week I asked dd to write a list of animals on the board and she wrote it more clearly than I can! I've had her journaling every day this month and somewhere something "clicked" and she has immaculate writing now. I had incredibly lousy handwriting (lefty) until I got into college and somehow during freshman year my handwriting went form illegible to immaculate as well. Anyway, I'm not going to claim that is true for everyone, but I do suspect that as long as they can form their letters and get some regular practice (less may be more), there is a good chance it will mature on it's own. If your LA is so heavy in writing you think your DD will rebel/cry/hate learning -- seriously consider removing it. As she gets older, if her handwriting hasn't improved, then you can make it a priority. :) I think at 8 you are still fighting with fine muscle coordination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verity Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 My two older boys have pretty serious fine motor problems (autistic spectrum/aspergers) so handwriting amd copywork is a big struggle for them both. If I forced them to do copious copywork every day it would be incredibly painful and non-productive. I use FLL/WWE and SotW as major components of our homeschool. This is our second year of doing this, oldest son's third year at home. I've tried several other programs but keep coming back to this selection. FLL focuses on learning grammar: the names of the parts of speech, how to diagram, how the words fit together properly. I don't ever do any of the copywork in FLL. WWE focuses on reading a short selection (fiction and nonfiction) and gently leading the student to be able to summarize the passage. This is the first step in learning to do something like writing a book report. WWE separates the steps of summarizing a passage from being able to summarize and write down your idea at the same time - a step that is ignored in most regular classrooms. The dictation portion of WWE is practice for the student to hold a sentence in their mind and be able to write it down. These incremental steps are very important, especially for students with learning disabilities. I have tried several times this year to use history to do the narration, dictation for my younger son to streamline his work further but I find myself going back to WWE for two reasons: 1) I like the exposure to so many valuable selections of books that otherwise I might forget or my son might not read, I often choose a read aloud based on the selection in WWE. 2)When I try to come up with my own dictation sentences I find it difficult to find ones appropriate in length and spelling content on my middle son's level. I use the AG primarily to help me with narration questions and for coloring pages, games and book selections. I can come up with my own questions (and frequently do, but sometimes I need the mental break and am glad to not have to recreate the wheel in every class). I buy all three (WWE, FLL, and the AG) in e-book format so I can just print out the student pages that I need and will be able to use these over and over again for my three students. I agree with the recommendations about lightening up on the writing requirements for kids who have struggles in the fine motor department. I'm using Handwriting Without Tears for the older boys cursive and my youngest for print. Having a struggling writer do one piece of copywork to their best ability daily is enough for me, I do everything else I can orally with a struggling writer in lower grades. My 8 year old does WWE, FLL, math and spelling most days. Depending on the amount of writing in WWE/FLL for that day I may do some of his writing for him in FLL, it just depends on the day. Ditto for his Latin for Children. For my son with Asperger's I acted as a secretary writing his answers for outlining and math until just recently (beginning of this year). Last year I also did alot of his writing in Latin and FLL. At 12 years old I'm finally seeing some real improvement in his ability to write on his own and stay on task. Find other fun ways to strenthen those fine motor skills: playdough (rolling, mashing, pinching, shaping), coloring, drawing, any crafts - perler beads, legos, etc... it's amazing how much better my boys handwriting is after a year+ of lots of "exercising" their hands through play. Good luck with finding a good fit for your family! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallory Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I must be missing something- what does WWE have to do with SOTW? I can see WWE being a little redundant with FLL if one does the copywork/dictation/narration exercises in the latter. But SOTW isn't LA but history Because SOTW already has the narration exercises with questions already done and you can complete the WWE skills using the history book you are already studing. Then you just pull out a dictation from either STOW or another book you are reading for history and you've finished writing and history all in one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Because SOTW already has the narration exercises with questions already done and you can complete the WWE skills using the history book you are already studing. Then you just pull out a dictation from either STOW or another book you are reading for history and you've finished writing and history all in one! But WWE-style narration has a different focus than the kind of CM-style narration done in history. The focus of narrations in WWE (at least in WWE1, which is the only level I have used) is summarizing- what is the main point in *ONE* sentence? Whereas when we're doing narrations for history, my student can re-tell it with however much detail he/she can remember. Learning to summarize is an important skill that will be useful later on when it comes to writing thesis sentences. I see the two types of narrations as being complementary skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelanieM Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Because SOTW already has the narration exercises with questions already done and you can complete the WWE skills using the history book you are already studing. Then you just pull out a dictation from either STOW or another book you are reading for history and you've finished writing and history all in one! I can absolutely see this working for a lot of people. However, I think one of the best parts of WWE is the progression and incremental increase in skill level. It's so nice to have that laid out for you so that you don't have to find something 'just right' for the level you're working at. Total time saver, and sometimes the difference between getting done and not getting done, for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommyto4 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I use WWE for my two boys and find it easy to use and so effective. We also do SOTW, but I must admit that we just do the comprehension questions and an oral narration. I figure we get enough written narrations in WWE. This leaves more time for the fun activities in SOTW and keeps the kids excited and happy to do history together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallory Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 But WWE-style narration has a different focus than the kind of CM-style narration done in history. But the narrations in SOTW are summary narrations, not CMish narrations. They are the whole section in 2 or 3 sentances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I do WWE *and* STOW narrations. At the point of WWE1 we're at (week 5 this week), we're still doing 2 paragraph passages and asking for one thing. In SOTW, it's a whole chapter or section, and I often ask for 3-5 sentences. I'm writing either way. But yeah, we do both. I'm mean like that. :D I must say, my son's narration skills are improving by leaps and bounds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 But the narrations in SOTW are summary narrations, not CMish narrations. They are the whole section in 2 or 3 sentances. Huh? I'm sitting here with my copy of the 2009 edition of TWTM and in the grammar stage history chapter it says to "read to the child (or give him a reading assignment) and then ask him to tell you what he's just read." That sounds to me like CM-style narration as opposed to the summarizing in WWE1. When it comes to history and science, I want my kids giving me as detailed narrations as they can remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 :bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallory Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) Huh? I'm sitting here with my copy of the 2009 edition of TWTM and in the grammar stage history chapter it says to "read to the child (or give him a reading assignment) and then ask him to tell you what he's just read." That sounds to me like CM-style narration as opposed to the summarizing in WWE1. I think that is because you like CM narrations ;) I don't believe SWB ever recomends that kind of narration. On page 112 it says to ask the child one important thing they remembered from their history for thier narration for first grade. On page 118 it says second graders should be writing half thier narrations. While it doesn't say an amount, I know my second graders couldn't write more then maybe 3 sentances at the very most and one or two was more common- so 4 to 6 sentances at the most. Then for third graders it says one or two paragraphs per sections, still summarizing, not picking out all the details. And all the example narrations in SOTW AG's are short. I don't think they get much more then 4 or 5 sentances even in SOTW 3 (and I think 4 has almost all outlines). On page 59 it says to keep narrations of reading books under 5 sentances. Edited to add this link- http://dev.welltrainedmind.com/tips-for-narration/ article by SWB about summary narrations in history, Edited February 1, 2011 by Mallory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehogs4 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 I am overwhelmed by all the LA... and I think my ADD 8 yr old is going to spend hours crying... Right now we are doing FLL. It's our first year doing the "Classical" method, so I wanted to ease everyone in. As my teens keep telling me, homeschooling was supposed to mean less hours of school :confused: So now I have: Spelling Grammar Writing- penmanship Writing- composition And Reading.... ?????????? LLATL is sounding better and better every dang day :( I just want to cry, but I want to do this right, too. look at the Phonics Road. It may be the answer to your prayers. It includes all of the above and teaches you how to teach it to your student. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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