"Worship" - What does it mean to you?

[MamaSheep]

Recently I have been pondering the different ways I've seen and heard this word used amongst people of different backgrounds. Everything from sun-worship (meaning lying in the sun to get a tan) and worshipping celebs or significant others ("he worships the ground she walks on" for example, or "hero worship") to exclusively religious usage ("worship service", "worship team", "worship God"). How do you use it? What do you mean by it? Is it a noun or a verb to you--or both? Is it external, visible action, or something more internal--or both? Is it something a person does for him or herself, or something that is, or can be, done on your behalf by another person or group, such as a pastor or "worship team"? Or both? Is it emotional, intellectual, physical, spiritual, social, or some combination? Is worship, as a verb, something that can only be done consciously, or only unconsciously, or can it be both? (In other words, can you worship someone or something without realizing it? Does being aware of the fact that you are worshipping diminish the worship?) Is worship something that is directed at a specific being or object, or is it a more generalized, undirected sense or feeling (or whatever)--or can it be both?

 

I'm just mulling this over lately, and wondering if anyone might be willing to contribute some thoughts on the subject.

Edited November 19, 2010 by MamaSheep

[lionfamily1999]

It's showing reverence, adoring, paying homage to or showing great regard to something (thank you dictionary.com):lol:.

 

I don't believe that the self is the center of worship or worship is done for the self (except when you're worshipping yourself, which does happen). I think celebrity worship is when people center much of their attention on a particular celebrity or else much of their time and attention to a great many celebrities or celebrity itself. I think that people worship all kinds of thing. Coming from a Christian viewpoint, this is idol worship and we're warned against it, because it pulls us from worshipping God.

 

At church, worship can be used so many different ways. Worship is often meant to be singing (Praise and Worship), it can also mean praying at the altar, but I think many of our old hyms get it right. When we go to church and we focus on God we're truly worshipping. Even if no one is singing, even if it's a time of quiet prayer, we're worshipping God. When we go out into the world and minister to others we are, imo, worshipping God in the way He likes best. We're spreading the gospel, we're furthering His kingdom, we are worshipping. I think that ideally, Christians should always be in a state of worship. Of course, none of us can live up to the ideals, but when you listen to the description of heaven and the people singing "Holy Holy Holy" how much more worshipful can you get? How incredible would it be if we did all turn our worship to God?

 

We can worship cars (spend most of our money on them, worry about them at night, build small fortresses to keep them and security systems to keep them safe), we can worship our children (pretty much the same way we worship cars, although the "security systems" we build are often different), we can worship our pets (see above), we can worship our hobbies. Humans are capable of worshipping everything under the sun. When we allow something to take up our time and thoughts, when we allow it to become a large part of our life, we can end up worshipping it. For years I worshipped dh, I have worshipped music, I have worshipped my job.

 

That went long, :p, oops, but I see I didn't answer half of your questions....

 

I was going to say it's both a noun and a verb, but I think it's more a verb than anything else, if that makes sense.

 

I do not believe that someone can worship for you. They can worship you, but I believe that for a person to worship it's something they themselves have to actually do. It can be emotional, intellectual, physical, spiritual, and social. I think worship happens nearly every moment of our lives. It's what we worship that changes. Because I believe that, I also believe that you can worship something without realizing it. Being aware of what you're doing, though, imo, empowers you to make the right decisions of WHAT you're worshipping.

 

How and to what a person's worship is directed is up to the individual.

Edited November 19, 2010 by lionfamily1999

[Parrothead]

I very rarely use that word. Even being a member of the Worship and Spirituality Committee for my parish, I rarely actually say the word worship in speaking or writing.

[lionfamily1999]

I very rarely use that word. Even being a member of the Worship and Spirituality Committee for my parish, I rarely actually say the word worship in speaking or writing.

Gads, my post must've been like nails on a chalk board. I'm sorry.

[MamaSheep]

It's showing reverence, adoring, paying homage to or showing great regard to something (thank you dictionary.com):lol:.

 

I don't believe that the self is the center of worship or worship is done for the self (except when you're worshipping yourself, which does happen). I think celebrity worship is when people center much of their attention on a particular celebrity or else much of their time and attention to a great many celebrities or celebrity itself. I think that people worship all kinds of thing. Coming from a Christian viewpoint, this is idol worship and we're warned against it, because it pulls us from worshipping God.

 

At church, worship can be used so many different ways. Worship is often meant to be singing (Praise and Worship), it can also mean praying at the altar, but I think many of our old hyms get it right. When we go to church and we focus on God we're truly worshipping. Even if no one is singing, even if it's a time of quiet prayer, we're worshipping God. When we go out into the world and minister to others we are, imo, worshipping God in the way He likes best. We're spreading the gospel, we're furthering His kingdom, we are worshipping. I think that ideally, Christians should always be in a state of worship. Of course, none of us can live up to the ideals, but when you listen to the description of heaven and the people singing "Holy Holy Holy" how much more worshipful can you get? How incredible would it be if we did all turn our worship to God?

 

We can worship cars (spend most of our money on them, worry about them at night, build small fortresses to keep them and security systems to keep them safe), we can worship our children (pretty much the same way we worship cars, although the "security systems" we build are often different), we can worship our pets (see above), we can worship our hobbies. Humans are capable of worshipping everything under the sun. When we allow something to take up our time and thoughts, when we allow it to become a large part of our life, we can end up worshipping it. For years I worshipped dh, I have worshipped music, I have worshipped my job.

 

That went long, :p, oops, but I see I didn't answer half of your questions....

 

I was going to say it's both a noun and a verb, but I think it's more a verb than anything else, if that makes sense.

 

I do not believe that someone can worship for you. They can worship you, but I believe that for a person to worship it's something they themselves have to actually do. It can be emotional, intellectual, physical, spiritual, and social. I think worship happens nearly every moment of our lives. It's what we worship that changes. Because I believe that, I also believe that you can worship something without realizing it. Being aware of what you're doing, though, imo, empowers you to make the right decisions of WHAT you're worshipping.

 

How and to what a person's worship is directed is up to the individual.

 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It sounds like you and I think along at least somewhat similar lines on this--except that I have never thought of worship as being primarily applied to singing at church. I guess my church doesn't use it in that way, though certainly singing is viewed as one of many ways to worship. I am glad you went long. I like long. :) Also, my list of questions was meant to sort of give some idea of things I'd like to hear about, but certainly not as a listing of questions that all needed to be answered in responses. I hope people will feel free to pick and choose, or to ask and answer questions I didn't think to include. I didn't take a long time to thoughtfully formulate my question, I just sort of tossed it together and put it out there.

 

I very rarely use that word. Even being a member of the Worship and Spirituality Committee for my parish, I rarely actually say the word worship in speaking or writing.

 

Why is that? Is it on purpose, or just that it doesn't come up?

[lionfamily1999]

--except that I have never thought of worship as being primarily applied to singing at church.

That's how I hear it used most often. "It's time for worship" means, "The choir's rearin' to go, get in there!" :lol: I guess I would say that singing at church is the 'mainstream' definition as I hear it.

[MamaSheep]

That's how I hear it used most often. "It's time for worship" means, "The choir's rearin' to go, get in there!" :lol: I guess I would say that singing at church is the 'mainstream' definition as I hear it.

...huh...

 

I have heard it used this way by other people outside my faith too. I wonder how common that is, and when and how that came to be...

[lionfamily1999]

...huh...

 

I have heard it used this way by other people outside my faith too. I wonder how common that is, and when and how that came to be...

It's listed under the definition of "worship" on dictionary.com so I guess it's a common usage.

[MamaSheep]

It's listed under the definition of "worship" on dictionary.com so I guess it's a common usage.

 

Interesting...I'm off to dictionary.com. :)

[MamaSheep]

It's listed under the definition of "worship" on dictionary.com so I guess it's a common usage.

 

Interesting...I'm off to dictionary.com. :)

 

Ok, apparently I'm missing it, could you point me in the right direction over there at dictionary.com? The only reference there to music in church as worship that I found was down close to the bottom in the "Encyclopedia" entry:

 

... ritual drama, prayers of many sorts, dancing, ecstatic speech, veneration of various persons and objects, sermons, silent meditation, and sacred music and song. Also included in worship are acts of private response: spoken or unspoken prayers, silence, the assumption of particular postures, ritual acts and gestures, and individual acts of veneration of persons or objects.

 

 

Is this what you meant, or am I missing something up there in the main definitions?

 

(P.S. Since it's so hard to read tone sometimes when all you have to go by is type, I want to make sure to clarify that I am not criticizing the word being used in this way, I'm just interested and exploring because it is less familiar to me. But I am also aware that many, many people use it in this way, so yes, it's pretty common. I am in a rabbit-trail sort of mood today, and likely to drift down any random line of thought tossed in my path.)

Edited November 19, 2010 by MamaSheep

[TXMomof4]

To me worship is active (in church). Singing, praying, hearing God's word - that is active. Serving and loving others is active. It's not just emotion, it's action.

 

I agree that the word is thrown around a lot but kind of gives us insight into society. Worshipping an athlete, celebrity, etc may just seem like a figure of speech, but I think there's more truth to it than we care to admit. Not literally bowing our knee to that person, but allowing it to consume our thoughts and allegiences. If I spent half as much time worrying about my relationship with God as I do worrying about how the Cowboys will play this Sunday, I'd be in a whole different place spiritually.

[lionfamily1999]

Okay, I could have sworn I saw it as a number two or three, but you're right it's not there. I'm sorry! Thank you for pointing that out (how embarassing).

[MamaSheep]

Okay, I could have sworn I saw it as a number two or three, but you're right it's not there. I'm sorry! Thank you for pointing that out (how embarassing).

Oh please don't be embarassed! I was sure I must be missing something and feeling a little dim-witted...lol. Maybe you saw it somewhere else. Anyway, I agree with you that at least in some denominations it is very common usage. I just was wondering how widespread that is (since it doesn't seem to be the case universally), and when it started being used that way. I shall just go on happily wondering. And I really do appreciate your input in my train of thought. :)

[MamaSheep]

To me worship is active (in church). Singing, praying, hearing God's word - that is active. Serving and loving others is active. It's not just emotion, it's action.

 

I agree that the word is thrown around a lot but kind of gives us insight into society. Worshipping an athlete, celebrity, etc may just seem like a figure of speech, but I think there's more truth to it than we care to admit. Not literally bowing our knee to that person, but allowing it to consume our thoughts and allegiences. If I spent half as much time worrying about my relationship with God as I do worrying about how the Cowboys will play this Sunday, I'd be in a whole different place spiritually.

 

I agree that there has to be more to it than just a feeling. I have been pondering, though, where the line is between "active" and "passive" (to throw out terms that I am sure are inadequate in some way...sigh). Where does "feeling" become "doing"? Because I would say that it is just as worshipful to pray in one's mind as it is to pray vocally (though maybe some would disagree?), even though the former could not be observed as "active" by an outside observer. And then...I would also say that a worshipful "act" without the proper intent would probably not be "true" worship either. For example, a person might pray by rote aloud while their mind was engaged with worrying about how the Cowboys will play this Sunday (to use your example), and I am not sure that could really be considered "worship" even though it would certainly appear that the person was "worshipping". I dunno...it seems like somewhere this overlaps with the whole "faith without works is dead" and "dead works" issues.

 

And now I find myself pondering the intersection of "worship" and "faith".

 

Thanks for posting!

[kpnick in nc]

A couple of things come to my mind as I think about the word "worship." Once a pastor briefly addressed the etymology of the word and he used the phrase "worth-ship," which helps me see the wide range of uses the word can have.

 

Next, one quote from a sermon that has stuck with me through the years is, "What do you think about when there's nothing else to think about? That is what we worship." I know that homeschooling moms have very few moments when there's *nothing* to think about :tongue_smilie:, but it is a very thought-provoking statement!

[TXMomof4]

I agree that there has to be more to it than just a feeling. I have been pondering, though, where the line is between "active" and "passive" (to throw out terms that I am sure are inadequate in some way...sigh). Where does "feeling" become "doing"? Because I would say that it is just as worshipful to pray in one's mind as it is to pray vocally (though maybe some would disagree?), even though the former could not be observed as "active" by an outside observer. And then...I would also say that a worshipful "act" without the proper intent would probably not be "true" worship either. For example, a person might pray by rote aloud while their mind was engaged with worrying about how the Cowboys will play this Sunday (to use your example), and I am not sure that could really be considered "worship" even though it would certainly appear that the person was "worshipping". I dunno...it seems like somewhere this overlaps with the whole "faith without works is dead" and "dead works" issues.

 

And now I find myself pondering the intersection of "worship" and "faith".

 

Thanks for posting!

 

I don't know how feeling becomes doing. You're right. How many times have I sat in service, sang the songs, and had zero "response" in my heart? How many people leave saying they didn't "get" anything out of the service?

 

One of the first sermons I heard at my old church really brought this home to me - worship isn't FOR me. I am worshipping God. I am there to honor and adore my God. Putting that in my mind instead of complaining that the singing isn't good that Sunday really helped me to experience worship. Taking a meal to someone as an act of worship - to honor God - instead of doing it simply because it's a good thing changes the perspective a little. Looking at the beautiful flower and thinking about the fact that God created that beauty and sincerely being thankful for that gives me a heart of thankfulness which leads to an attitude of worship.

 

That same preacher - his name was Prentice Meador, died a few years ago. His favorite book of the Bible was Psalms. After he died, several other preachers published a book of sermons on Psalms in honor of Prentice. They included one of his sermons titled "Hallelujah - Word of Praise" and it discusses why Psalms, and praise itself is important. He discusses worship as "the language of praise."

 

From his sermon:

 

"On the one hand, I wanted to follow God's word in every detail. If there was anything in praise that I was missing, I wanted it. On the other hand, I did not want my expressions of praise to God to be inappropriate, empty, or insincere. For years, I just laid the matter aside and ignored it while living my Christian life.

To resolve the dilemma, I thought I needed to learn the language of praise. Where could I go to learn the language of praise? Where could I find biblical praise not used just for special occasions, but used to include everything that is truly human within me - my heart, my mind, my sould, and my salvation? I found that our world is not particularly interested in the language of praise. And then one of the most obvious facts about learning the language of praise became clearere. For some reason, it had strangely escaped me. I realized that human beings do not have capability, the intellect, or the capacity to help me learn such a language. I must bring myself to sit at the feet of God. If I were able to work my way through some of my problems concerning praise, only God could teach me out of his special book on praise: the Psalms."

 

He goes on to look at the book of Psalms, but I thought that section was particularly powerful.

 

It is so easy to slip into going to church because that's what we do. To sit in the pew, mouth the correct words and carry on. But there has to be more!

[HRAAB]

Worship is giving honor and adoration to God. I can't think of it in any other terms. Worship is spiritual (interior) and active (exterior). We worship God by our interior thoughts as well as how we live our lives.

[MamaSheep]

Next, one quote from a sermon that has stuck with me through the years is, "What do you think about when there's nothing else to think about? That is what we worship." I know that homeschooling moms have very few moments when there's *nothing* to think about :tongue_smilie:, but it is a very thought-provoking statement!

Well, now, that's interesting. Earlier this week someone else in my life quoted an almost identical statement, though in answer to a different question and probably from a different source. And not talking to me, though I was included in the conversation. Maybe God is trying to tell me something...lol.

 

Worship is giving honor and adoration to God. I can't think of it in any other terms. Worship is spiritual (interior) and active (exterior). We worship God by our interior thoughts as well as how we live our lives.

 

I like the way you stated that. I want to make sure that I am not misunderstanding you, though. When you say you can't think of it in any other terms, do you mean that nothing else actually truly qualifies as "worship" in your mind (for example, "worship" of a false god), or just that in your view God is the only proper object of worship?

 

I don't know how feeling becomes doing. You're right. How many times have I sat in service, sang the songs, and had zero "response" in my heart? How many people leave saying they didn't "get" anything out of the service?

 

One of the first sermons I heard at my old church really brought this home to me - worship isn't FOR me. I am worshipping God. I am there to honor and adore my God. Putting that in my mind instead of complaining that the singing isn't good that Sunday really helped me to experience worship. Taking a meal to someone as an act of worship - to honor God - instead of doing it simply because it's a good thing changes the perspective a little. Looking at the beautiful flower and thinking about the fact that God created that beauty and sincerely being thankful for that gives me a heart of thankfulness which leads to an attitude of worship.

 

That same preacher - his name was Prentice Meador, died a few years ago. His favorite book of the Bible was Psalms. After he died, several other preachers published a book of sermons on Psalms in honor of Prentice. They included one of his sermons titled "Hallelujah - Word of Praise" and it discusses why Psalms, and praise itself is important. He discusses worship as "the language of praise."

 

From his sermon:

 

"On the one hand, I wanted to follow God's word in every detail. If there was anything in praise that I was missing, I wanted it. On the other hand, I did not want my expressions of praise to God to be inappropriate, empty, or insincere. For years, I just laid the matter aside and ignored it while living my Christian life.

To resolve the dilemma, I thought I needed to learn the language of praise. Where could I go to learn the language of praise? Where could I find biblical praise not used just for special occasions, but used to include everything that is truly human within me - my heart, my mind, my sould, and my salvation? I found that our world is not particularly interested in the language of praise. And then one of the most obvious facts about learning the language of praise became clearere. For some reason, it had strangely escaped me. I realized that human beings do not have capability, the intellect, or the capacity to help me learn such a language. I must bring myself to sit at the feet of God. If I were able to work my way through some of my problems concerning praise, only God could teach me out of his special book on praise: the Psalms."

 

He goes on to look at the book of Psalms, but I thought that section was particularly powerful.

 

It is so easy to slip into going to church because that's what we do. To sit in the pew, mouth the correct words and carry on. But there has to be more!

 

So true. And yet, I find it fascinating that when I approach worship with a focus on God, and not my own entertainment/enlightenment/benefit, one result is that I also get more out of it. God is so interesting that way.

 

I think of this sometimes when I hear people advising each other to find a church they like, with a worship style that appeals to them, and with a doctrine that agrees with what they believe. It seems a little backward to me. If we are going to worship God, it seems that we should look for a church with doctrine God agrees with, rather than that which agrees with our preconceived ideas, and a worship style that appeals to God, and that God approves of. But I fully admit that my ideas about church are somewhat outside the "mainstream" in general, so...y'know...whatever. But I agree with you that worship should be focused on God, not on the believer doing the worshipping.

[lionfamily1999]

Where does "feeling" become "doing"? ...it seems like somewhere this overlaps with the whole "faith without works is dead" and "dead works" issues.

 

And now I find myself pondering the intersection of "worship" and "faith".

 

Thanks for posting!

First, I think that the overlap is right there, when feeling becomes doing :D Our faith grows into works when it stops being passive, we move past the "milk" phase into the "meat" phase, we become active.

 

Well, do you have faith in the Cowboys? I think that we like to make worship and faith sound like things we have to conciously decide to do, because that gives us the green card to be lazy in it. If you aren't on guard against falling into idol worship, then you're almost garunteed to end up worshiping idols. I just read, today, humans are only good at readying themselves for hell, only God can prepare us for heaven. Think about that. Left to our own devices we aim low (like hell low). It's only through God that we're able to rise above it. So, when we think we're just taking a break from worshipping God, maybe we are just leaving room for worldly things and prepping ourselves for a long hot eternity.

Next, one quote from a sermon that has stuck with me through the years is, "What do you think about when there's nothing else to think about? That is what we worship." I know that homeschooling moms have very few moments when there's *nothing* to think about :tongue_smilie:, but it is a very thought-provoking statement!

I think that's a great definition. If you could call it a definition :lol:

It is so easy to slip into going to church because that's what we do. To sit in the pew, mouth the correct words and carry on. But there has to be more!

Your entire post was beautiful, but I didn't want to take an entire page for my post :p

 

I think a big problem many churches face today is the deadness of spirit of much of the congregation. We forget that it's not about us. We forget that there are things greater than us. There are reasons bigger than hanging out. We forget our place.

So true. And yet, I find it fascinating that when I approach worship with a focus on God, and not my own entertainment/enlightenment/benefit, one result is that I also get more out of it. God is so interesting that way.

 

I think of this sometimes when I hear people advising each other to find a church they like, with a worship style that appeals to them, and with a doctrine that agrees with what they believe. It seems a little backward to me. If we are going to worship God, it seems that we should look for a church with doctrine God agrees with, rather than that which agrees with our preconceived ideas, and a worship style that appeals to God, and that God approves of. But I fully admit that my ideas about church are somewhat outside the "mainstream" in general, so...y'know...whatever. But I agree with you that worship should be focused on God, not on the believer doing the worshipping.

Our pastor had just taught on the selfish monsters at church. Well I think... In my opinion... I like it this way... I think this is important... This is important to me... He asked us how often we ask God first. It was a moment for me, I was definitely convicted. We have our projects and we forget that we belong to God. It's His business we should be about.

 

 

 

I'm reading a book right now called, "The Mind of Christ." He talks about unity in the church body. The one that has really struck me is unity of purpose. Does our church have a unity of purpose? We should, all Christians should share a unity of purpose, furthering the kingdom of heaven, God's Will and sharing the gospel. It's a lot to think about.

 

This thread could not have come at a better time for me :)

[MamaSheep]

First, I think that the overlap is right there, when feeling becomes doing :D Our faith grows into works when it stops being passive, we move past the "milk" phase into the "meat" phase, we become active.

 

Hmmm...I'm not sure I can agree. I think that there is both passive contemplation and outward action in both the "milk" phase and the "meat" phase.

 

I am also not convinced that "faith" and "worship" are the same thing (although I'm not sure that's what you were saying either). I think they are very closely related, but...slightly different. I think maybe worship grows out of faith. But then...the more I think about it, faith can grow out of worship as well. Or at least, worship can help already existing faith to increase. Now I'm really thinking myself around in circles

 

Well, do you have faith in the Cowboys? I think that we like to make worship and faith sound like things we have to conciously decide to do, because that gives us the green card to be lazy in it. If you aren't on guard against falling into idol worship, then you're almost garunteed to end up worshiping idols. I just read, today, humans are only good at readying themselves for hell, only God can prepare us for heaven. Think about that. Left to our own devices we aim low (like hell low). It's only through God that we're able to rise above it. So, when we think we're just taking a break from worshipping God, maybe we are just leaving room for worldly things and prepping ourselves for a long hot eternity.

 

Well, I have somewhat unorthodox ideas about original sin and human depravity. But that's a whole other discussion.

 

Our pastor had just taught on the selfish monsters at church. Well I think... In my opinion... I like it this way... I think this is important... This is important to me... He asked us how often we ask God first. It was a moment for me, I was definitely convicted. We have our projects and we forget that we belong to God. It's His business we should be about.

 

It's kind of tricky, isn't it? Because we do have our own opinions and thoughts and preferences. And we also know we need to value the opinions, thoughts, and preferences of other people. But yes, we should be about God's business, not about pursuing our own personal preferences. And I think that applies both to issues relating to church, and to our own personal lives, if we are Christians. In our church, those in leadership positions are very much expected and encouraged to prayerfully seek God's will with regard to the things under their stewardship, and I have definitely seen a difference between that approach and one where everyone is trying to campaign for their own pet projects.

 

I'm reading a book right now called, "The Mind of Christ." He talks about unity in the church body. The one that has really struck me is unity of purpose. Does our church have a unity of purpose? We should, all Christians should share a unity of purpose, furthering the kingdom of heaven, God's Will and sharing the gospel. It's a lot to think about.

 

I don't personally see a great deal of unity in "traditional", "mainstream" (for lack of better terms) Christianity. It seems very, very fragmented. The general consensus seems to be that all the fragmentation is perfectly fine, so long as everyone agrees on the fundamentals--but there is no unity on what the fundamental issues even ARE, let alone on what the "correct" understanding and application of those issues might be. In my opinion (ahem) this is not a small problem.

 

This thread could not have come at a better time for me :)

 

Good! Then I'm glad I started it. :)

[ma23peas]

"Here I am to Worship, Here I am to bow down, Here I am to say that You're my God, You're altogether lovely, altogether worthy, altogether wonderful to me."

 

"Majesty, worship His Majesty...unto Jesus, be all glory honor and power!"

 

Those two songs pretty much sum up how I define the word. I think sometimes my children or adults even have 'idols' but I don't think they 'worship' them...my son has an idol with Xbox on occasions, but he does not worship it....worship for me means to put nothing higher than that which you worship....I've been fortunate that as long as I can remember God has always held that spot.

 

Tara

[Chris in VA]

Haven't read all the replies--

 

Since we are the temple, isn't everything we do an act of Worship? :001_smile: Maybe it should be, anyway.

[MamaSheep]

"Here I am to Worship, Here I am to bow down, Here I am to say that You're my God, You're altogether lovely, altogether worthy, altogether wonderful to me."

 

"Majesty, worship His Majesty...unto Jesus, be all glory honor and power!"

 

Those two songs pretty much sum up how I define the word. I think sometimes my children or adults even have 'idols' but I don't think they 'worship' them...my son has an idol with Xbox on occasions, but he does not worship it....worship for me means to put nothing higher than that which you worship....I've been fortunate that as long as I can remember God has always held that spot.

 

Tara

 

So...you're saying that a person can only worship one thing at a time, that one thing being whatever takes highest place in a person's life? Do I understand you correctly? How does polytheism fit with this? Are you saying you don't believe there is any such thing as polytheism? Or maybe I just misunderstood what you were saying.

 

Maybe it would help me out if you explained a little more about what you mean by "having idols", and how that is different than worship.

 

Haven't read all the replies--

 

Since we are the temple, isn't everything we do an act of Worship? :001_smile: Maybe it should be, anyway.

 

Interesting thought. So to you, worship is pretty much strictly things we 'do' -- or at least 'should do'?

Edited November 21, 2010 by MamaSheep

[Chris in VA]

Well, I'm thinking of the verse in Romans--here's a page of translations of it.

[MamaSheep]

Well, I'm thinking of the verse in Romans--here's a page of translations of it.

 

Oh I was thinking you were referring to the bit in 1 Corinthians 6:19-20. I can't figure out how to make your nifty site show both verses, but here it is from the KJV:

 

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

 

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

 

But Romans is interesting in that context too...hmmm....

[guateangel]

Worship is giving honor and adoration to God. I can't think of it in any other terms. Worship is spiritual (interior) and active (exterior). We worship God by our interior thoughts as well as how we live our lives.

 

 

:iagree:

[Rosie_0801]

I very rarely use that word. Even being a member of the Worship and Spirituality Committee for my parish, I rarely actually say the word worship in speaking or writing.

 

 

Me either. I think it is a kind of creepy word. So you lot are welcome to it :)

 

Rosie

[MamaSheep]

Me either. I think it is a kind of creepy word. So you lot are welcome to it :)

 

Rosie

 

Creepy, eh...I have to admit I have never thought of it like that. Always nice to get a fresh perspective, makes me think. :)

[Negin]

As a Baha'i, worship, to us, is not just prayer and spirituality. Work, when done in the spirit of service, is worship.

[MamaSheep]

As a Baha'i, worship, to us, is not just prayer and spirituality. Work, when done in the spirit of service, is worship.

 

I'm so glad you joined the discussion. I have to admit I don't know much about Baha'i.

[TXMomof4]

As a Baha'i, worship, to us, is not just prayer and spirituality. Work, when done in the spirit of service, is worship.

 

That falls in line with the definition of worship - honoring and adoring God. How better to honor and adore than to serve in his name?

[lionfamily1999]

Hmmm...I'm not sure I can agree. I think that there is both passive contemplation and outward action in both the "milk" phase and the "meat" phase.

 

You could be right. :lol: I've lost this thread for a while and have to reorient myself to it. There is a lot of action with new Christians, in the milk phase, but the action seems to be passive. It's not that they are trying so much as their cup overflows everywhere they go. Maybe that's the way it should always be (without forethought, without trying at all).

I am also not convinced that "faith" and "worship" are the same thing (although I'm not sure that's what you were saying either). I think they are very closely related, but...slightly different. I think maybe worship grows out of faith. But then...the more I think about it, faith can grow out of worship as well. Or at least, worship can help already existing faith to increase. Now I'm really thinking myself around in circles

 

They aren't, the same way that faith and works are two separate things, but they are (imo) linked very closely. When we have faith, we lift whatever we have faith in up. If we worship something then we end up having faith in it. I think faith and works are the same way. If you have no works then there is something lacking in the faith department. If you have no faith, then your works are hollow. If you aren't worshipping something then how much faith do you have in it? If you don't have faith in something how can you worship it?

 

 

Well, I have somewhat unorthodox ideas about original sin and human depravity. But that's a whole other discussion.

 

Okay :)

 

 

It's kind of tricky, isn't it? Because we do have our own opinions and thoughts and preferences. And we also know we need to value the opinions, thoughts, and preferences of other people. But yes, we should be about God's business, not about pursuing our own personal preferences. And I think that applies both to issues relating to church, and to our own personal lives, if we are Christians. In our church, those in leadership positions are very much expected and encouraged to prayerfully seek God's will with regard to the things under their stewardship, and I have definitely seen a difference between that approach and one where everyone is trying to campaign for their own pet projects.

 

The pastor's point was, whenever we go the way WE think is right, without first turning to God for guidance, we're going the wrong way. We have our opinions and our pride. Our pride is like a well laid out map with all the routes leading down. Rather than saying that we don't like a particular worship style, we should consider if God is glorified through it and (through prayer, study) discern how God wants us to stand.

 

 

I don't personally see a great deal of unity in "traditional", "mainstream" (for lack of better terms) Christianity. It seems very, very fragmented. The general consensus seems to be that all the fragmentation is perfectly fine, so long as everyone agrees on the fundamentals--but there is no unity on what the fundamental issues even ARE, let alone on what the "correct" understanding and application of those issues might be. In my opinion (ahem) this is not a small problem.

 

 

The unity of purpose should be shared though. It says, very clearly, that we are to spread the good news and share the gospel. Even the different parts of modern Christianity that seldom agree agree on that (or should).

 

I totally agree that this is not a small problem. It's HUGE. How in the world are we supposed to go about our Father's business when there are so many that either blindly ignore what that business is or (even worse) tear down the ones that are going about it?!?

 

I do take comfort, though, in the thought that God knows there are 'tares' in our fields and He will root them out in His own time.

 

What amazes me is that there are Christians and churches that worry about bringing people to Christ, because then more people will go to "their" church :001_huh:

 

Makes me want to say, "Pardon me, WHOSE church?!?"

Good! Then I'm glad I started it. :)

:D

[MamaSheep]

You could be right. :lol: I've lost this thread for a while and have to reorient myself to it. There is a lot of action with new Christians, in the milk phase, but the action seems to be passive. It's not that they are trying so much as their cup overflows everywhere they go. Maybe that's the way it should always be (without forethought, without trying at all).

I'm not sure what you mean by passive action. Do you mean that it does not seem to take conscious effort?

 

It might be interesting to delve into what constitutes "milk" and what constitutes "meat". But again, that's probably a whole other discussion unto itself.

 

They aren't, the same way that faith and works are two separate things, but they are (imo) linked very closely. When we have faith, we lift whatever we have faith in up. If we worship something then we end up having faith in it. I think faith and works are the same way. If you have no works then there is something lacking in the faith department. If you have no faith, then your works are hollow. If you aren't worshipping something then how much faith do you have in it? If you don't have faith in something how can you worship it?

 

Ok, I think I'm with you there. :)

 

Okay :)

 

The pastor's point was, whenever we go the way WE think is right, without first turning to God for guidance, we're going the wrong way. We have our opinions and our pride. Our pride is like a well laid out map with all the routes leading down. Rather than saying that we don't like a particular worship style, we should consider if God is glorified through it and (through prayer, study) discern how God wants us to stand.

Yes, that. Especially the bolded part.

 

 

The unity of purpose should be shared though. It says, very clearly, that we are to spread the good news and share the gospel. Even the different parts of modern Christianity that seldom agree agree on that (or should).

 

I totally agree that this is not a small problem. It's HUGE. How in the world are we supposed to go about our Father's business when there are so many that either blindly ignore what that business is or (even worse) tear down the ones that are going about it?!?

 

Well, I think part of the problem is that they can't agree on what the Father's business is, or what exactly is the gospel they should be sharing.

 

I do take comfort, though, in the thought that God knows there are 'tares' in our fields and He will root them out in His own time.

Me too.

 

What amazes me is that there are Christians and churches that worry about bringing people to Christ, because then more people will go to "their" church :001_huh:

 

Makes me want to say, "Pardon me, WHOSE church?!?"

 

:D

I see your point, but I don't think most people mean it that way when they say "our church". I think most people (including me) use it just as a shorter way of saying something like, "the church of which I am a member" or "the church my family attends", or something along those lines.

 

It is an interesting line of thought, though--what makes a church God's, rather than man's.

[yslek]

Haven't read all the replies--

 

Since we are the temple, isn't everything we do an act of Worship? :001_smile: Maybe it should be, anyway.

 

:iagree:

[yslek]

Well, I'm thinking of the verse in Romans--here's a page of translations of it.

 

You beat me to it. This was exactly what I thought of, also. :)

[lionfamily1999]

I'm not sure what you mean by passive action. Do you mean that it does not seem to take conscious effort?

 

Yes, but as I wrote that I realized that what I was trying to say was wrong. Not that it isn't as full of intention (I do believe new Christians don't try nearly as hard to spread the gospel), but that there's something 'wrong' with that. :lol: I just confused myself ;)

It might be interesting to delve into what constitutes "milk" and what constitutes "meat". But again, that's probably a whole other discussion unto itself.

 

Well, it's your thread ;)

 

I think milk vs meat is easier to describe using examples than actually trying to define it.

 

 

Ok, I think I'm with you there. :)

 

 

Yes, that. Especially the bolded part.

 

 

 

Well, I think part of the problem is that they can't agree on what the Father's business is, or what exactly is the gospel they should be sharing.

 

That last part, imo, is obvious. We've all fallen short. We all need to be saved. We are saved through Christ. From there, things splinter, but I guess that's the basest basic of the Christian faith. I think CS Lewis put it best in 'Mere Christianity.' He didn't try to send anyone to a specific denomination, just to get them to trust Christ for their salvation.

 

Me too.

 

 

I see your point, but I don't think most people mean it that way when they say "our church". I think most people (including me) use it just as a shorter way of saying something like, "the church of which I am a member" or "the church my family attends", or something along those lines.

 

It is an interesting line of thought, though--what makes a church God's, rather than man's.

Ah, but those that say they don't want new people because it will change their church, I think they need to search themselves. I think when they say 'my' church, they don't simply mean, 'the church I attend,' they mean their (in the possessive) church. I know more and more people that believe that they should have utter control of their church, that any change should go through them. They, imo, have moved beyond thinking it's the house of God in which they worship to really believing it belongs to them.

[MamaSheep]

Yes, but as I wrote that I realized that what I was trying to say was wrong. Not that it isn't as full of intention (I do believe new Christians don't try nearly as hard to spread the gospel), but that there's something 'wrong' with that. :lol: I just confused myself ;)

Well, as long as we're all confused together...lol. I have often thought that those who are new seem to have an abundance of enthusiasm for sharing what they have found with others.

Well, it's your thread ;)

True...true...

I think milk vs meat is easier to describe using examples than actually trying to define it.

That may be. But then, I think that until we can agree as to what IS the gospel, and what IS the Christian way of life, it's pretty useless to try to categorize different parts of it as "milk" or "meat". It's difficult to evaluate a set until we know what that set consists of.

 

That last part, imo, is obvious. We've all fallen short. We all need to be saved. We are saved through Christ. From there, things splinter, but I guess that's the basest basic of the Christian faith. I think CS Lewis put it best in 'Mere Christianity.' He didn't try to send anyone to a specific denomination, just to get them to trust Christ for their salvation.

 

I quite enjoyed "Mere Christianity".

 

After people begin to trust Christ for their salvation, though, they are confronted with the denominational splintering and conflicting scholarly opinions, and they have to figure out what to do about that. I know others disagree with me, and I am truly not saying this to offend anyone, and I hope it won't be taken that way, but I don't think that is how God intends it to be. There is a lot in the Bible about unity--one Lord, one faith, one baptism, be of one mind, one body in Christ. Yet the denominations and scholars can't even agree on what it means to be fallen, or what it means to be saved, or how we are saved through Christ. If there is so little unity, if the church is not functioning as God directs, can it really be God's church? Again, I'm not trying to start fights or hurt anyone's feelings, I'm just putting some thoughts out there. I think it's a reasonable question to ask.

 

Ah, but those that say they don't want new people because it will change their church, I think they need to search themselves. I think when they say 'my' church, they don't simply mean, 'the church I attend,' they mean their (in the possessive) church. I know more and more people that believe that they should have utter control of their church, that any change should go through them. They, imo, have moved beyond thinking it's the house of God in which they worship to really believing it belongs to them.

 

Oh I see what you mean. I think I misread what you wrote before and I thought you meant something else. Sorry. :)

 

I guess it's not an attitude I've come across a lot.

[lionfamily1999]

Well, as long as we're all confused together...lol. I have often thought that those who are new seem to have an abundance of enthusiasm for sharing what they have found with others.

 

Yes, and their spill it over everyone they come into contact with. They don't even have to try. It's just there, beaming out of every pore.

True...true...

 

That may be. But then, I think that until we can agree as to what IS the gospel, and what IS the Christian way of life, it's pretty useless to try to categorize different parts of it as "milk" or "meat". It's difficult to evaluate a set until we know what that set consists of.

 

 

I thought the gospels were the gospel? I know there is a lot I don't know about other denominations, but with a few exceptions, I thought that was pretty well agreed on. I see what you mean about the milk and meat. I come from a biblical perspective, so I always assume that the Bible would be the center of the discussion.

I quite enjoyed "Mere Christianity".

 

After people begin to trust Christ for their salvation, though, they are confronted with the denominational splintering and conflicting scholarly opinions, and they have to figure out what to do about that. I know others disagree with me, and I am truly not saying this to offend anyone, and I hope it won't be taken that way, but I don't think that is how God intends it to be. There is a lot in the Bible about unity--one Lord, one faith, one baptism, be of one mind, one body in Christ. Yet the denominations and scholars can't even agree on what it means to be fallen, or what it means to be saved, or how we are saved through Christ. If there is so little unity, if the church is not functioning as God directs, can it really be God's church? Again, I'm not trying to start fights or hurt anyone's feelings, I'm just putting some thoughts out there. I think it's a reasonable question to ask.

I'm surprised there is disagreement over what it means to be fallen. I mean, we all know what a sin is, that's in black and white. We know that Christ died so that we could be forgiven and our sins could be washed away, rather than concealed by the blood of a sacrifice... Or I guess I'm assuming again. I don't think that any denomination corners the market on God's church. I think there are bodies (churches) of every denomination that are an acceptable part of the larger body of Christ. Even those individual churches have issues (I'm POSITIVE of that), but the Spirit is among them and they have fruit to show for it.

 

This is why, while I'm now a Baptist, I don't take another person's denomination (or my thoughts on their denomination) into account as far as what I believe of their spirit. I let them show me that. Good people can be found in terrible churches. Terrible people, truly anti-Christian people, can be found in the best churches.

 

 

 

 

Oh I see what you mean. I think I misread what you wrote before and I thought you meant something else. Sorry. :)

 

I guess it's not an attitude I've come across a lot.

I have seen it here and there. It led me to my personal belief that pastor led churches can be very dangerous to the congregation's spirituality. It's why I prefer a church where the body decides, rather than a single person. In a larger sense, I've seen it in unwelcoming people when visiting a church.

 

That's not to say that all pastor led churches are heading in the wrong direction. My issue is that you're relying on one person to keep their faith together. I guess it's the same reason for believing in a government where there are checks and balances. To throw a little secular wisdom on it, "absolute power corrupts absolutely."

[Annabel Lee]

Just a few thoughts: God is deserving of worship whether we "feel" like it or not. Worship, as I think of it, is not isolated to song, dance, & music. Worship can be submitting & aligning oneself to His will (in many forms) and can be applied to actions, subconcious state of mind, and concious actions/feelings/attitudes we put on.

[MamaSheep]

I thought the gospels were the gospel? I know there is a lot I don't know about other denominations, but with a few exceptions, I thought that was pretty well agreed on. I see what you mean about the milk and meat. I come from a biblical perspective, so I always assume that the Bible would be the center of the discussion.

Well, technically "gospel" means "good news". In very broad strokes, the "good news" is that Jesus, the Son of God, came to Earth, lived a sinless life, redeemed mankind from sin, and conquered death so that we may be forgiven and live again. The books in the Bible that we call "the gospels" are four explanations of the "good news", but (IMO) the gospel is not limited to those books of the Bible, but is also expressed in Acts, and the epistles (and throughout scripture, really), and from pulpits, on street corners, across kitchen tables, and so forth--the "good news" is the gospel no matter where or how it is expressed. But if you go any deeper than a very, very broad overview (and some may disagree with some of my phrasing above, for that matter), there are all sorts of complications. For example, part of the "good news" is that people can be saved from sin through Christ. But there are a number of points of view as to what it means to be "saved", what constitutes "sin", and how exactly we are supposed to come to Christ and gain access to His salvation. Some say that God just chooses some to be saved and others not, and nothing man can do will have any influence on whether God chooses them or not. Some say all that is required is for a person to speak certain words affirming their belief in Christ. Some teach that in order to come to Christ and accept His gift of salvation it is necessary to have faith, sincerely repent, and make a good-faith effort at living according to the teachings of Jesus, repenting again as necessary. Some believe that it is necessary to make a formal commitment, not only inwardly, but outwardly in the form of baptism, confirmation, etc. And again, there are disagreements as to the meanings of words like, "faith", "repentance", and "baptism". It can get rather convoluted.

 

Interestingly, "Biblical" is another one of those words people disagree about. To some it means a teaching is drawn from the Bible, and ONLY from the Bible, with no outside influence whatever. To others it means a teaching is in harmony with the teachings of the Bible. Many denominations see church "tradition" as being very much Biblical in this sense, whereas other denominations condemn "tradition" as being non-Biblical.

 

I'm surprised there is disagreement over what it means to be fallen. I mean, we all know what a sin is, that's in black and white. We know that Christ died so that we could be forgiven and our sins could be washed away, rather than concealed by the blood of a sacrifice... Or I guess I'm assuming again.

 

For some denominations, it is a sin for a woman to wear pants. In other denominations there is no sin anymore, at least for Christians, because sin is understood to be a breach of the law, but Christ did away with the law and therefore a Christian, who is in Christ cannot breach the law anymore because there is no law, there is only Christ. To some, "sin" is primarily guilt inherited from Adam's transgression in the garden and is a state in which we exist that is entirely separate from what we may do--though because we are sinful in nature due to this inherited guilt, everything we do is sin until we come to Christ. I've heard some interesting explanations of sin over the years.

 

And not that it's really here or there, but I have never understood OT blood sacrifice as a concealment of sin, but rather as a symbol of Christ's coming sacrifice--which we now remember through communion rather than anticipate with sacrifice.

 

I don't think that any denomination corners the market on God's church. I think there are bodies (churches) of every denomination that are an acceptable part of the larger body of Christ. Even those individual churches have issues (I'm POSITIVE of that), but the Spirit is among them and they have fruit to show for it.

 

Hmm...I guess I don't see God's church as a "market" commodity. I also don't see it as an institution that's organized by man and accepted by God as an offering. I'm trying to think of a good way to explain how I think of it, but I'm not sure I can put it adequately into words. I guess I think of it more along the lines of a governmental structure--a "kingdom". If a particular "community" in the "kingdom" (figuratively speaking) operates according to the laws established by the "king", which are administered by a "governor" who has been given official authority by the "king" to supervise affairs in the "kingdom", then one could say that the community is legitimately part of that kingdom. Say there's another community, though, where the people have elected their own "governor", and they do whatever that "governor" says, regardless of whether what he says aligns with the laws of the "king". Or, yet another community where the people have a more democratic approach--they vote on laws, some of which align with the laws established by the "king", and some of which follow the preferences of the local community instead, and they elect a governor that will enforce the laws voted in by the community, whether or not those laws align with the king's will. I am not sure that you could say they are part of the "kingdom". Allies, maybe, and as allies maybe they would reap some of the benefits of their alignment with the kingdom--but part of the kingdom? I think that's a bit of a stretch. That's kind of how I see God's church. If God is truly in charge, calling the shots, and the ministers are truly appointed and authorized by God, and the church is administered according to God's instructions, then it's God's church. If the minister is in charge, or the people are in charge, then it seems to me that it's the minister's church, or the people's church. But I do think that God responds to every seeking heart, regardless of what church, or even religion, they belong to. Does that make sense?

 

This is why, while I'm now a Baptist, I don't take another person's denomination (or my thoughts on their denomination) into account as far as what I believe of their spirit. I let them show me that. Good people can be found in terrible churches. Terrible people, truly anti-Christian people, can be found in the best churches.

 

Oh, I totally agree. Good people can definitely be found in terrible churches (and even other religions), and terrible people can be found in the best churches. You will get no argument on that from me. :) And I let people show me who they are too, regardless of their religion or denomination.

I have seen it here and there. It led me to my personal belief that pastor led churches can be very dangerous to the congregation's spirituality. It's why I prefer a church where the body decides, rather than a single person. In a larger sense, I've seen it in unwelcoming people when visiting a church.

 

That's not to say that all pastor led churches are heading in the wrong direction. My issue is that you're relying on one person to keep their faith together. I guess it's the same reason for believing in a government where there are checks and balances. To throw a little secular wisdom on it, "absolute power corrupts absolutely."

I do agree that power can corrupt. But I would throw in a caveat that God, who is the only absolute power, is entirely incorruptible.

[lionfamily1999]

Well, technically "gospel" means "good news". In very broad strokes, the "good news" is that Jesus, the Son of God, came to Earth, lived a sinless life, redeemed mankind from sin, and conquered death so that we may be forgiven and live again. The books in the Bible that we call "the gospels" are four explanations of the "good news", but (IMO) the gospel is not limited to those books of the Bible, but is also expressed in Acts, and the epistles (and throughout scripture, really), and from pulpits, on street corners, across kitchen tables, and so forth--the "good news" is the gospel no matter where or how it is expressed. But if you go any deeper than a very, very broad overview (and some may disagree with some of my phrasing above, for that matter), there are all sorts of complications. For example, part of the "good news" is that people can be saved from sin through Christ. But there are a number of points of view as to what it means to be "saved", what constitutes "sin", and how exactly we are supposed to come to Christ and gain access to His salvation. Some say that God just chooses some to be saved and others not, and nothing man can do will have any influence on whether God chooses them or not. Some say all that is required is for a person to speak certain words affirming their belief in Christ. Some teach that in order to come to Christ and accept His gift of salvation it is necessary to have faith, sincerely repent, and make a good-faith effort at living according to the teachings of Jesus, repenting again as necessary. Some believe that it is necessary to make a formal commitment, not only inwardly, but outwardly in the form of baptism, confirmation, etc. And again, there are disagreements as to the meanings of words like, "faith", "repentance", and "baptism". It can get rather convoluted.

 

Interestingly, "Biblical" is another one of those words people disagree about. To some it means a teaching is drawn from the Bible, and ONLY from the Bible, with no outside influence whatever. To others it means a teaching is in harmony with the teachings of the Bible. Many denominations see church "tradition" as being very much Biblical in this sense, whereas other denominations condemn "tradition" as being non-Biblical.

 

 

 

For some denominations, it is a sin for a woman to wear pants. In other denominations there is no sin anymore, at least for Christians, because sin is understood to be a breach of the law, but Christ did away with the law and therefore a Christian, who is in Christ cannot breach the law anymore because there is no law, there is only Christ. To some, "sin" is primarily guilt inherited from Adam's transgression in the garden and is a state in which we exist that is entirely separate from what we may do--though because we are sinful in nature due to this inherited guilt, everything we do is sin until we come to Christ. I've heard some interesting explanations of sin over the years.

 

And not that it's really here or there, but I have never understood OT blood sacrifice as a concealment of sin, but rather as a symbol of Christ's coming sacrifice--which we now remember through communion rather than anticipate with sacrifice.

 

 

 

Hmm...I guess I don't see God's church as a "market" commodity. I also don't see it as an institution that's organized by man and accepted by God as an offering. I'm trying to think of a good way to explain how I think of it, but I'm not sure I can put it adequately into words. I guess I think of it more along the lines of a governmental structure--a "kingdom". If a particular "community" in the "kingdom" (figuratively speaking) operates according to the laws established by the "king", which are administered by a "governor" who has been given official authority by the "king" to supervise affairs in the "kingdom", then one could say that the community is legitimately part of that kingdom. Say there's another community, though, where the people have elected their own "governor", and they do whatever that "governor" says, regardless of whether what he says aligns with the laws of the "king". Or, yet another community where the people have a more democratic approach--they vote on laws, some of which align with the laws established by the "king", and some of which follow the preferences of the local community instead, and they elect a governor that will enforce the laws voted in by the community, whether or not those laws align with the king's will. I am not sure that you could say they are part of the "kingdom". Allies, maybe, and as allies maybe they would reap some of the benefits of their alignment with the kingdom--but part of the kingdom? I think that's a bit of a stretch. That's kind of how I see God's church. If God is truly in charge, calling the shots, and the ministers are truly appointed and authorized by God, and the church is administered according to God's instructions, then it's God's church. If the minister is in charge, or the people are in charge, then it seems to me that it's the minister's church, or the people's church. But I do think that God responds to every seeking heart, regardless of what church, or even religion, they belong to. Does that make sense?

 

 

 

Oh, I totally agree. Good people can definitely be found in terrible churches (and even other religions), and terrible people can be found in the best churches. You will get no argument on that from me. :) And I let people show me who they are too, regardless of their religion or denomination.

 

I do agree that power can corrupt. But I would throw in a caveat that God, who is the only absolute power, is entirely incorruptible.

Ack! I have a ton of work to do right now and cannot address everything else, but that bolded part. You are absolutely right. (Ducking head)

[TXMomof4]

Well, as long as we're all confused together...lol. I have often thought that those who are new seem to have an abundance of enthusiasm for sharing what they have found with others.

 

{snip}

 

After people begin to trust Christ for their salvation, though, they are confronted with the denominational splintering and conflicting scholarly opinions, and they have to figure out what to do about that. I know others disagree with me, and I am truly not saying this to offend anyone, and I hope it won't be taken that way, but I don't think that is how God intends it to be. There is a lot in the Bible about unity--one Lord, one faith, one baptism, be of one mind, one body in Christ. Yet the denominations and scholars can't even agree on what it means to be fallen, or what it means to be saved, or how we are saved through Christ. If there is so little unity, if the church is not functioning as God directs, can it really be God's church? Again, I'm not trying to start fights or hurt anyone's feelings, I'm just putting some thoughts out there. I think it's a reasonable question to ask.

 

 

 

.

 

I don't think there's a way to characterize actions as milk or meat. Sure a new believer will have enthusiasm that hopefully will follow through as action. But does his understanding match that? Of course the joy of the realization that Christ died for me is an overwhelming and exciting thing. But what happens when there are tests to your faith? I think it's very hard to go to the depths with your faith until it's been tested. Believing God is relatively easy before anything happens. It's when the storm hits and you come out with God on the other side that your faith and trust in God can deepen. Very much like marriage, actually. DH and I loved each other at first. Now we LOVE each other - after the hardships and joys we've experienced together we KNOW we can trust each other and that allows our love to grow.

 

In a bible class a few years ago someone was talking about idolatry and pointed out that every. single. instance has to do with putting our own desires first. If I want society to accept me, I tend to focus my time and energy on money and appearances. If I want my children to be successful, I focus all my time and energy on their education. It's easy to take those things and know in and of themselves they aren't bad things, but when I focus on them I can't focus fully on God either.

 

He drew a picture with God at the top and self at the bottom. If we aren't fully focused on God, we can't move towards him because every action will take us further away from him. Until we put our eyes on God, we're moving backwards in our growth. So basically, we're running around in circles all the time because none of us keeps our eyes fully on God all the time.

 

It was a good mental picture for me.

[MamaSheep]

I don't think there's a way to characterize actions as milk or meat. Sure a new believer will have enthusiasm that hopefully will follow through as action. But does his understanding match that? Of course the joy of the realization that Christ died for me is an overwhelming and exciting thing. But what happens when there are tests to your faith? I think it's very hard to go to the depths with your faith until it's been tested. Believing God is relatively easy before anything happens. It's when the storm hits and you come out with God on the other side that your faith and trust in God can deepen. Very much like marriage, actually. DH and I loved each other at first. Now we LOVE each other - after the hardships and joys we've experienced together we KNOW we can trust each other and that allows our love to grow.

 

In a bible class a few years ago someone was talking about idolatry and pointed out that every. single. instance has to do with putting our own desires first. If I want society to accept me, I tend to focus my time and energy on money and appearances. If I want my children to be successful, I focus all my time and energy on their education. It's easy to take those things and know in and of themselves they aren't bad things, but when I focus on them I can't focus fully on God either.

 

He drew a picture with God at the top and self at the bottom. If we aren't fully focused on God, we can't move towards him because every action will take us further away from him. Until we put our eyes on God, we're moving backwards in our growth. So basically, we're running around in circles all the time because none of us keeps our eyes fully on God all the time.

 

It was a good mental picture for me.

 

I thoroughly agree. As I tried to say earlier, I think that there is both inner faith and outer action both at early, young stages and in later, deeper, more 'tested' times. The depth of understanding and commitment might be different, but there is both belief and action all the way through. I think, though, that some 'teachings' might be classified as milk or meat. Some teachings are understood more deeply and clearly, and are easier to actually put into practice once other, simpler things are mastered. But I think they kind of exist on a continuum, not clear-cut black and white categories, and I don't think it's particularly useful to try to sort which are which, especially in settings where not everyone even agrees what the valid teachings actually are. IYKWIM.

[ereks mom]

...who deserves my worship except God. It would be idolatry for me elevate anyone or anything else to that level. Worship can be a noun (I give God my worship) or a verb (I worship God). It can also be an adjective: the worship team facilitates the worship of God in our church. Anything that brings us to an awareness of God is part of worship--prayer, singing, sermons, Bible study, etc. And yes, even things that are not usually associated with church at all can be part of worship--hiking in the woods, holding a brand-new baby--as long as you become aware of God's presence through that activity.

[MamaSheep]

Ack! I have a ton of work to do right now and cannot address everything else, but that bolded part. You are absolutely right. (Ducking head)

 

No problem. I've got a busy day ahead of me too and I'm not sure how often I'll be able to drop in here today.

 

I didn't figure you were talking about God when you said absolute power corrupts absolutely, and I definitely agree that some people have seriously abused power in the name of religion.