If someone lies by either omitting facts or misconstruing the truth, then...

[4kids4me]

I have someone in my life that has caused a lot of upheaval. Her discretion is poor, her memory is poor. She has bipolar but I *thought*, based on my observation, that it was under control with meds (I've seen when it's not under control, so I thought I knew when it's bad). This person put herself in a very dangerous position, which my dh and I saved her from (this person very likely would have been physically or financially harmed because of...because of what? Uh the bipolar? The lack of discretion and memory???).

 

Fast forward through many difficult details (sorry!)...

 

It turns out that this person isn't in my life any more but I hear that she's telling lies about me and about why we're not in each other's lives.

 

So what is this called? Is this a form of abuse? Is it just an unbalanced person? Can it be that she's balanced (which in the case of her bipolar, I think she IS actually very level) but it's just a *really bad personality*??? Or maybe her bipolar meds (lithium) is killing her brain?

 

I ask this because I'm trying to figure it out for my peace. This certainly isn't physical abuse, but can it be called another form? I'm just not sure! This person has torn apart my peace for over a year and it's been very, very difficult to deal with.

 

I'm editing to add a little more information based on what one poster was asking to help explain:

 

Well, I'm trying to be a little discreet so as not to be disrespectful but I'll give a little more information....

 

It's my mom, and the issue is that based on extreme circumstances last year, and continuing through this year, I put restrictions on when she can see my kids as she's put my kids in situations that were unsafe (though she wouldn't admit that she's done that)....so she can come here but they're not going out alone with her or to her home (basically supervised visits here). In the last five months she's chosen not to come see them -- my sister says she's "grieved" not being able to see the kids any more -- and more recently called twice to talk to them, telling them she misses them (which is a bunch of crap, because there's no reason to miss them since she IS allowed to see them). From my very good friends, who's mom is friends with my mom, I hear that Mom's said that I'm keeping the kids from her and not allowing them to see her. The mom of my friends was saying how horrible I was and it was so terrible I was keeping the kids from my mom, etc. So now I'm trying to sort out my feelings on what Mom's been saying about me behind my back...the continued lies and misconstruing the truth is very mentally taxing. To boot, I feel like she's using my kids to continue to play mental games with me. I refuse to put my kids in the middle, but am having a hard time cutting off all ties between her and the kids, though I really want to. (You know, I AM trying to be a good daughter despite what's going on.)

Edited November 1, 2010 by 4kids4me

[simka2]

Does she have any "real" power of you? I mean, is she in any kind of authority?

 

Abuse "usually" involves someone in a place of power, real or believed. If you believe she has power over your life, but she really doesn't...then it's time to figure out how to take that away from her. KWIM?

 

This is in no way saying that what she is doing isn't wrong or painful. It's also, not saying it isn't a part of her illness. I think what's hard is that when the victims can't label it, we struggle with knowing how to find healing.

 

Especially, when the one who hurts us has a medical diagnoses, that seems to make the behavior...okay. It's a very fine line to walk. I would suggest a lot of soul searching on what you can handle in your life, and maintain the quality of life you want.

 

The people in your life who really matter, won't believe the things she says.

 

Now, if what she is saying has the ability to affect your livelihood...you can look into "libel."

 

Hope that helps

[4kids4me]

Does she have any "real" power of you? I mean, is she in any kind of authority?

 

Abuse "usually" involves someone in a place of power, real or believed. If you believe she has power over your life, but she really doesn't...then it's time to figure out how to take that away from her. KWIM?

 

This is in no way saying that what she is doing isn't wrong or painful. It's also, not saying it isn't a part of her illness. I think what's hard is that when the victims can't label it, we struggle with knowing how to find healing.

 

Especially, when the one who hurts us has a medical diagnoses, that seems to make the behavior...okay. It's a very fine line to walk. I would suggest a lot of soul searching on what you can handle in your life, and maintain the quality of life you want.

 

The people in your life who really matter, won't believe the things she says.

 

Now, if what she is saying has the ability to affect your livelihood...you can look into "libel."

 

Hope that helps

 

Well, I'm trying to be a little discreet so as not to be disrespectful but I'll give a little more information....

 

It's my mom, and the issue is that based on extreme circumstances last year, and continuing through this year, I put restrictions on when she can see my kids as she's put my kids in situations that were unsafe (though she wouldn't admit that she's done that)....so she can come here but they're not going out alone with her or to her home (basically supervised visits here). In the last five months she's chosen not to come see them -- my sister says she's "grieved" not being able to see the kids any more -- and more recently called twice to talk to them, telling them she misses them (which is a bunch of crap, because there's no reason to miss them since she IS allowed to see them). From my very good friends, who's mom is friends with my mom, I hear that Mom's said that I'm keeping the kids from her and not allowing them to see her. The mom of my friends was saying how horrible I was and it was so terrible I was keeping the kids from my mom, etc. So now I'm trying to sort out my feelings on what Mom's been saying about me behind my back...the continued lies and misconstruing the truth is very mentally taxing. To boot, I feel like she's using my kids to continue to play mental games with me. I refuse to put my kids in the middle, but am having a hard time cutting off all ties between her and the kids, though I really want to. (You know, I AM trying to be a good daughter despite what's going on.)

[asta]

I have someone in my life that has caused a lot of upheaval. Her discretion is poor, her memory is poor. She has bipolar but I *thought*, based on my observation, that it was under control with meds (I've seen when it's not under control, so I thought I knew when it's bad). This person put herself in a very dangerous position, which my dh and I saved her from (this person very likely would have been physically or financially harmed because of...because of what? Uh the bipolar? The lack of discretion and memory???).

 

Fast forward through many difficult details (sorry!)...

 

It turns out that this person isn't in my life any more but I hear that she's telling lies about me and about why we're not in each other's lives.

 

So what is this called? Is this a form of abuse? Is it just an unbalanced person? Can it be that she's balanced (which in the case of her bipolar, I think she IS actually very level) but it's just a *really bad personality*??? Or maybe her bipolar meds (lithium) is killing her brain?

I ask this because I'm trying to figure it out for my peace. This certainly isn't physical abuse, but can it be called another form? I'm just not sure! This person has torn apart my peace for over a year and it's been very, very difficult to deal with.

 

I'm editing to add a little more information based on what one poster was asking to help explain:

 

Well, I'm trying to be a little discreet so as not to be disrespectful but I'll give a little more information....

 

It's my mom, and the issue is that based on extreme circumstances last year, and continuing through this year, I put restrictions on when she can see my kids as she's put my kids in situations that were unsafe (though she wouldn't admit that she's done that)....so she can come here but they're not going out alone with her or to her home (basically supervised visits here). In the last five months she's chosen not to come see them -- my sister says she's "grieved" not being able to see the kids any more -- and more recently called twice to talk to them, telling them she misses them (which is a bunch of crap, because there's no reason to miss them since she IS allowed to see them). From my very good friends, who's mom is friends with my mom, I hear that Mom's said that I'm keeping the kids from her and not allowing them to see her. The mom of my friends was saying how horrible I was and it was so terrible I was keeping the kids from my mom, etc. So now I'm trying to sort out my feelings on what Mom's been saying about me behind my back...the continued lies and misconstruing the truth is very mentally taxing. To boot, I feel like she's using my kids to continue to play mental games with me. I refuse to put my kids in the middle, but am having a hard time cutting off all ties between her and the kids, though I really want to. (You know, I AM trying to be a good daughter despite what's going on.)

 

Lithium is actually neuro protective, not neuro degenerative, so it would not be "killing her brain". Mental illness, with few exceptions, will get worse, not better, as one ages in the absence of medication (the exception to this is that researchers have found that, in the elderly, for some reason, their manic phases appear not to go as "high").

 

Can she have a "bad" personality? (I'm assuming you mean borderline personality disorder) Of course she can. Anyone can. But unless you are sitting down with her and her psychiatrist, you're never going to know.

 

There are all sorts of people on the planet who simply behave poorly. There isn't necessarily a medical reason for it; sometimes people are just *ssholes. Even amongst the bipolar, some people are nice, and some are simply jerks.

 

If I were in your shoes, I would be more curious as to what *else* was going on medically in her life. If someone has been out of the picture for a while and then reappears with a different set of behaviors, I would want to know what had changed (meds, new medical condition, etc.).

 

 

a

[DaffodilDreams]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: - - am in a similar situation and just wanted you to know I feel for you. I'm so sorry you're experiencing this behavior from your mom.

[lisabelle]

I'm sorry you're going through this. I have a mom who is very similar, only she has never been able to keep the grandchildren separate from their parents, so when she's been angry at one of her children...all of a sudden the kids have no grandmother anymore.

 

Personally, I had to cut my mom out of my life. I keep in touch with one of her friends, so I imagine I'll hear about it if she gets herself into a real jam, or if she gets herself well-medicated.

 

It's easier for me though, because my siblings cut her out of their lives way before I did, so I don't have to hear about her bad-mouthing me to my brothers and sister.

 

It's hard. I can't even recommend you do what I did. I feel horrible about it all the time, but I couldn't come up with a solution that worked for me or for my family other than to avoid dealing with it. I can't fix it...she has to fix it...so until she does I can't work with her.

[4kids4me]

If I were in your shoes, I would be more curious as to what *else* was going on medically in her life. If someone has been out of the picture for a while and then reappears with a different set of behaviors, I would want to know what had changed (meds, new medical condition, etc.).

 

Nothing has changed with her. Yes, I've not been in her life for five months, but she's the same. We've been dealing with this for a long time, it's just that now her behaviour has crossed over and has affected us because we've had to put ourselves out there and get her out of a tough situation.

 

As far as the "bad personality" goes, that's a quote from our family doctor that I called 12 years ago, before she was diagnosed with bipolar, when I asked him if he thought she had bipolar. "No," he says, "she's just got a bad personality."

 

I'm not sure if she's got borderline personality disorder -- I'm familiar with it. I guess there are many, many personality disorders...maybe she's got one of them. :confused:

[Jean in Newcastle]

It has escalated because she's not getting her way on her own terms. She wants her outrageous claims of your "abuse" to get sympathy for herself from others (which she's getting so that reinforces it) and she wants it to reach your ears so that it will manipulate you into giving into her. Stay strong. You know the facts - that she's the one keeping herself from her grandkids. Giving in won't help - it might temporarily ease certain pressures but it will lead back to the other pressures and dangers that led you to making these choices in the first place. :grouphug: We believe that you are a good mom and a good daughter. :grouphug: You are showing love and respect for your mom by putting up these boundaries even if she can't see it. These boundaries are for her own good as well as for the good of your family.

[simka2]

Well, I'm trying to be a little discreet so as not to be disrespectful but I'll give a little more information....

 

It's my mom, and the issue is that based on extreme circumstances last year, and continuing through this year, I put restrictions on when she can see my kids as she's put my kids in situations that were unsafe (though she wouldn't admit that she's done that)....so she can come here but they're not going out alone with her or to her home (basically supervised visits here). In the last five months she's chosen not to come see them -- my sister says she's "grieved" not being able to see the kids any more -- and more recently called twice to talk to them, telling them she misses them (which is a bunch of crap, because there's no reason to miss them since she IS allowed to see them). From my very good friends, who's mom is friends with my mom, I hear that Mom's said that I'm keeping the kids from her and not allowing them to see her. The mom of my friends was saying how horrible I was and it was so terrible I was keeping the kids from my mom, etc. So now I'm trying to sort out my feelings on what Mom's been saying about me behind my back...the continued lies and misconstruing the truth is very mentally taxing. To boot, I feel like she's using my kids to continue to play mental games with me. I refuse to put my kids in the middle, but am having a hard time cutting off all ties between her and the kids, though I really want to. (You know, I AM trying to be a good daughter despite what's going on.)

 

 

We are dealing with this same situation...on STERIODS!!! MIL told everyone we could we were withholding the grandkids from her. We weren't, but there was a change in the ground rules. She refuses to abide by the rules...therefore we are withholding the kids....:tongue_smilie:! Anyway, at first people were soooooo mad at us. "How can your dh even call himself a pastor!!!!!" type comments. Eventually, by calmly telling the truth to people the tide changed. Unfortunately, the people who sided with her at first felt very ashamed with how they treated us, and the relationships have not been able to reconnect.

 

After a few months of us actively telling our side, very calmly...she moved 1000 miles away. That really cinched it, people knew the truth and it was undeniable.

 

Hang in there. Stick to your guns. I cannot tell you how many times I would beat people to the punch and say "It just breaks my heart that their grandparents have decided it's to much trouble to be in our lives."

 

She never had an answer for that.

[4kids4me]

It has escalated because she's not getting her way on her own terms. She wants her outrageous claims of your "abuse" to get sympathy for herself from others (which she's getting so that reinforces it) and she wants it to reach your ears so that it will manipulate you into giving into her. Stay strong. You know the facts - that she's the one keeping herself from her grandkids. Giving in won't help - it might temporarily ease certain pressures but it will lead back to the other pressures and dangers that led you to making these choices in the first place. :grouphug: We believe that you are a good mom and a good daughter. :grouphug: You are showing love and respect for your mom by putting up these boundaries even if she can't see it. These boundaries are for her own good as well as for the good of your family.

 

So to you and other posters...what would you call someone that's lying about you...is it a form of abuse...or psychological manipulation?

[simka2]

So to you and other posters...what would you call someone that's lying about you...is it a form of abuse...or psychological manipulation?

 

Slander, gossip...I know it hurts like hell! But that's what it is.

 

Remember, abuse is a legal term. It doesn't reflect the pain of someones words.

 

It's also "easier" in a sense to keep up the boundaires if we can call something by a specfic label. For some reason, the term "gossip" doesn't hold as much weight. As it should!

 

Your boundaires, are your boundaires...and you can enforce them.

 

I might substitute the term "toxic" for "abuse" in this context. ;)

[secular_mom]

So to you and other posters...what would you call someone that's lying about you...is it a form of abuse...or psychological manipulation?

I would call her a manipulative liar who is trying to control other people. Lying in this fashion is definitely an attempt to manipulate the situation and the people involved.

[Harriet Vane]

So to you and other posters...what would you call someone that's lying about you...is it a form of abuse...or psychological manipulation?

 

It sure feels abusive and manipulative, doesn't it?

 

There's someone in my life who is actively lying about me (has been over the last two years) and it's unbelievably mean. :grouphug:

[Jean in Newcastle]

So to you and other posters...what would you call someone that's lying about you...is it a form of abuse...or psychological manipulation?

 

It's both really. But you have to realize that it most probably is not the clear-headed kind of sadistic abuse or manipulation. She's lying to herself too.

[unsinkable]

:grouphug:

 

I hope you find some peace! I give you so much credit for still giving your mom a chance even though she is mistreating you and your family!

[AK_Mom4]

To boot, I feel like she's using my kids to continue to play mental games with me. I refuse to put my kids in the middle, but am having a hard time cutting off all ties between her and the kids, though I really want to. (You know, I AM trying to be a good daughter despite what's going on.)

 

My two cents.... call her on it. Call her up and invite her over to visit with the kids on Tuesday. She will either take you up on it, or come up with some reason why she can't make it so she can continue the drama. And if she can't make it, I would probably stop the phone calls to the kids

 

People rarely hear anything good about themselves in gossip. And that's what this is - your friend said that her mom said that your mom said.... Best to just ignore it and refuse to listen if you can.

[JVA]

The DSM (Diagnostic Statistic Manual - the guidebook for mental health has all personality disorders organized by types. It's published by the American Psychiatric Assoc. and provides the legal and definitive definitions for providers and insurance companies- therefore- I'd say it's reliable) will give you the ins and outs of disorders....

This sounds like something in the cluster B grouping....maybe Borderline Personality Disorder? Histrionic?

Maybe putting a name on it will help.

 

http://www.suite101.com/content/clusterbdisorcers-a780

 

I am sorry you're going through this. Protecting your children and showing respect to your mother in the ways you are are the best things you can do. If you lived nearby, I'd come give you a hug. :grouphug: We have a loo-loo in our family, too. No fun.

[4kids4me]

:grouphug:

 

I hope you find some peace! I give you so much credit for still giving your mom a chance even though she is mistreating you and your family!

 

If you guys only knew the whole story, too. I thought I was at least giving her something, even when she deserved nothing...and now even that she's screwed up. Funny thing is, she's now creating her own reality as I want her completely out of our lives. I'm so tired of her destruction.

[simka2]

If you guys only knew the whole story, too. I thought I was at least giving her something, even when she deserved nothing...and now even that she's screwed up. Funny thing is, she's now creating her own reality as I want her completely out of our lives. I'm so tired of her destruction.

 

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: to you!!! I will say this. My life and my kids quality of life is so much better right now. We have no contact with the In-laws, but it has been wonderful for us and our marriage!

[Irishmommy]

My mom is the same way. She's alleged that I am abusing my children and that dh abuses me. She is just in her own reality, that is not in line with the rest of the world. I don't really care what she says about me to those who choose to believe her. I will not let her sickness destroy my family as it has her own. I will not take the kids to see her, nor will I encourage them to talk to her. I've told them we can see Nana again when she is making better decisions, but right now her choices are hurting her and others around her. So, I haven't said we are never seeing her again, just not right now. My mom has been controlling and manipulative her whole life. Every few months she emails me to try and reengage me in a dialogue, but I haven't ever responded to her. There is no point in me trying to reason with those who cannot. I have not spoken to her since we did an intervention for her in May. We let her know then what the consequences of her not accepting the help we were offering her. She saw it as threats (of course, because she did not even see that she had problems). Anyway, I don't plan on talking with her for at least a year. I have to keep myself and my kids safe from her insanity. No nana is better than seeing crazy nana and getting the idea that her behavior is acceptable or normal, imo. I love her, but I cannot live in her sickness with her, when there are viable treatment options for her and she does not have to live her life like that...okay, stepping off my soapbox.

 

Sorry, what I meant to say was, you are not alone. I'll pray for you.:grouphug:

[WTMCassandra]

Have you considered that the very reason she is slandering you now is exactly because you did help her months ago? If she is personality-disordered (and frankly it sounds like it), she could have felt "one down" because of your help and unconsciously need to put you in your place (beneath her). It is not pretty to be related to the personality disordered. PM me if you would like to talk about this offline. (((4kids4me)))

[4kids4me]

Have you considered that the very reason she is slandering you now is exactly because you did help her months ago? If she is personality-disordered (and frankly it sounds like it), she could have felt "one down" because of your help and unconsciously need to put you in your place (beneath her). It is not pretty to be related to the personality disordered. PM me if you would like to talk about this offline. (((4kids4me)))

 

This is part of the bigger picture, actually. We had to have the police come in and help her out of a sticky situation and the one cop told her three times that she shouldn't have been in that situation in the first place and even told her that sometimes the parent becomes like the child and the child like the parent. She took that as very arrogant (the cop was our age) and twisted his words around six months later (as well as twisting our words around). She says we treat her disrespectfully, dishonouring, like a child, etc, etc, etc. It'd be too hard to get into the whole story now, but you've hit the nail on the head, as other posters have with how she acts.

[WTMCassandra]

I am so sorry. I think you should strongly consider backing away from the situation. You can't control what she says to other people, and likely she will continue her pattern of slander. I think you should protect yourself and your children the best that you can. It is hard, hard to be slandered all over the place and not be upset by it, but truthfully, it reflects more on her than you. She is probably going to find something to slander you about--let it be because you are legitimately protecting yourself and your children. This is hard, hard. I'm so sorry.

[cindergretta]

My mother has Borderline Personality Disorder. Our motto here is: Don't engage crazy!

 

You must set your boundaries and stick to them. All her baloney is abusive and toxic. You and your dc do not need that.

 

It took me *many* years to disengage and cut her off, but we did (I needed a LOT of help from dh) and we are all so much happier. I felt awful for ages (she has told everyone everywhere what a horrid daughter I am, a horrid Christian, a bad wife, a terrible mother... <sigh>) But now I *know* that people who love me and care about me know and understand that that isn't true and that those who would believe her lies (including herself!) are not worth my losing sleep over. Am I just an evil person all the way around? No. ((shrug)) So let her be crazy without me!

 

Let your mom be crazy WITHOUT you!! (((((hugs))))) Engaging her, calling her on it, trying to make it work, and so on will only lead *you* to frustration. You actually can't win and the real losers will be you, your sanity, and your dc. Too high a price to pay, in my estimation.

 

I am so sorry. It is a really lousy place to be when it is our own mother (or father or sibling) from whom we need protecting. :(

[tex-mex]

I would call her a manipulative liar who is trying to control other people. Lying in this fashion is definitely an attempt to manipulate the situation and the people involved.

:iagree: If it is the mental illness doing this -- that is her "reality". So sorry it is affecting you this badly. Remind yourself this is the mental illness doing this to her -- there have been times with my SIL and her paranoid schizophrenia she will accuse my hubby or parents of terrible stuff -- but it never happened. We couldn't call her a liar, either. She needed to up her meds and the psychosis went away. It just sucks. :grouphug:

[Laurie4b]

I would tell your sister and your friend whose mom knows your mom the facts. Tell them gently and with sympathy toward your mother. If your demeanor remains calm and gentle and you just repeat the facts, that gives you credibility, especially over time.

[4kids4me]

I would tell your sister and your friend whose mom knows your mom the facts. Tell them gently and with sympathy toward your mother. If your demeanor remains calm and gentle and you just repeat the facts, that gives you credibility, especially over time.

 

Those that are close to me -- my sister and friend -- know what's going on (my sister is part of the story). My friend told his mom bits of the story, so that put her feelings of me being a "horrible person" to rest.

 

I think what I struggle with most, more than the slander, is knowing that I need to completely cut off the relationship. I think Cindergretta put it best...what she felt in disengaging completely is how I'm feeling...it's a hard thing, especially since we're conditioned from birth that family comes first. I don't want her to continue to talk to them on the phone, though, because of how manipulative she can be.

[kalanamak]

Borderline Personality Disorder? .

 

Very often, when a person this dysfunctional gets a potpourri of diagnoses, such as bipolar AND dementia, etc, it is BPD. I would read up on this.

IME, those she first sucks in will soon see through her, and those that don't have some unmet need in themselves and no amount of trying to show them what is the matter works. BPDers are expert at "splitting" people as a means of exerting control . I think of them as a desert within, and a perfect example of the phrase "go away and stop leaving me alone".

 

I would ignore the insults and the REPORTS of insults. Twain had a lovely quote about how it takes two to hurt you: the insulter and the "friend" who runs to you with the news.

[4kids4me]

Thanks for the encouraging words, EVERYONE! It's been a tough go of it and I'm weary.

[cindergretta]

Thanks for the encouraging words, EVERYONE! It's been a tough go of it and I'm weary.

 

It takes time. (((hugs))) And it is so weary-ing. :( But when the transition is complete and you are free, you will feel so much better. And not nearly so weary. (It is exhausting trying to cope with a mentally ill relationship.)