Latin class project - What do you think of this?

[natalie]

Okay, here goes.

 

For some reason this assignment is really bugging me. Of course, I may very well be completely wrong, and it is in fact a perfectly reasonable assignment.

 

My dd12 informed me she has a 5 minute powerpoint presentation on St. Augustine due in 2 weeks. It is for her online latin class. Just so you know, the class is using Latin for Children B. I understood this to be for younger children than my dd, which is why we choose it. We wanted a nice gentle class. She took LfC A online last year with the same teacher and it was great.

 

When she told me, I didn't really think much of it. I just made a note to look for books. [embarassing confession here - I've heard of St. Augustine, but couldn't really tell you anything about him :blushing:] Of course our library has nothing. Library interloan here is unreliable and takes at least a week to get a book, almost always longer. Since she only has two weeks to do the project, I didn't even try getting anything that way. I went straight to Amazon.

 

So I'm looking for books, and I'm not entirely certain the content is appropriate. I was searching for Augustine of Hippo. There are none that I could find for children.

 

Today, while searching these boards, I discovered there are actually two St. Augustine's ... another embarassing moment :blushing:. Augustine of Kent sounds much better, so off I go to search for books again. I found ONE book for children (young adults) on this subject.

 

I did some web searches for both of them, but nothing for children jumped out at me. [While typing this post, we've figured out that the project is indeed on Augustine of Hippo, so now I have zero books located.]

 

 

So after typing all of this, I guess what is bothering me is:

 

1. The fact that a latin class for younger children has a presentation such as this for 25% of the class grade.

 

2. I think the subject matter is over her head, and not all of its subject matter (upon my admittedly very brief review) is appropriate for her (specifically, my dd).

 

3. Annoyance with the fact that I have two weeks to: locate books, purchase them, have them delivered, have dd read them, and teach her how to use powerpoint. [and still keep up with teaching all of my other children - our reason for taking an online class was to make life easier!]

 

4. Annoyance with the fact that there really aren't enough resources [or any at all] at her level to prepare a 5 minute powerpoint presentation without basically copying.

 

5. The fact that a latin class at this level has a project of this type in the first place. Has anyone else with younger children had projects of this type assigned in a foreign language class?

 

6. It seems to me, this is will be a fairly religious topic. The class was not represented as such though. I really see no need to have my daughter put in hours of work for that. [Yes, I'm aware LfC has some religious content, but I think it is extremely minimal.]

 

So...am I way off base? I am feeling particularly grumpy and irritable today for some reason. Maybe this just pushed me right over the edge. Right now, however, I am fighting the barely resistable urge to email the teacher. Please set me straight!

[Laura Corin]

I don't think I can help with the larger issue, but there's a good book by Barbara Willard called 'Augustine Came to Kent'. There's also mention of the story in Britannia, by McCaughrean and maybe in Our Island Story/An Island Story, by Marshall.

 

Laura

[natalie]

I don't think I can help with the larger issue, but there's a good book by Barbara Willard called 'Augustine Came to Kent'.

 

Laura

 

Thanks, Laura.

 

That is the one I found [that's when I realized there were actually 2 Augustine's :blushing: ].

 

Unfortunately, we found out it is the "other" Augustine she is to present on. I don't suppose you can come to my rescue with some resources for that one too :D ?

 

[i hope that comes across right. I'm never certain when I type something online if it will be taken the way I intended and am always afraid I will offend. :)]

[Kates]

It's more a history topic than a religious topic...yes, it's church history, but the church had a huge impact on history. It's kind of hard to get around that, unless you're just going to ignore a huge chunk of what actually happened.

 

However, I teach LfC A-C as well as Latin Alive...I really couldn't see assigning a project of that depth for my LfC B class - and they're your dd's age. My high school class, yes...but not the middle school. And if I did, I'd give them more than 2 weeks (a month sounds more appropriate), AND I'd give the parents advance warning if they were to round up materials - especially for an online class, where your students could be in downtown Manhattan or out in the boonies somewhere. (Actually, if I were to assign that to middle school kids, I'd give them resource materials and then allow them the option of adding more research in. Not all MS kids are at the point of finding and applying their own research.)

 

Personally, I would contact the teacher and let them know your difficulties. This project is most likely designed to broaden the students' understanding of Latin in the broad range of history (which includes church history), not to send them into an all-out tailspin trying to find materials. It really sounds like poor planning on the teacher's part.

[Laura Corin]

Sorry, I'm no good on the other Augustine.

 

Best of luck,

 

Laura

[natalie]

It's more a history topic than a religious topic...yes, it's church history, but the church had a huge impact on history. It's kind of hard to get around that, unless you're just going to ignore a huge chunk of what actually happened.

 

Kates, thank you for responding. I have no intentions of ignoring that part of history. My ds13 is actually using TOG Year 1 for history this year, online through Lampstand Learning Center. That has huge amounts of religious content because it is weaved through history, and I have no problems with it at all. We are both enjoying it immensely. I definitely feel it is important to have that knowledge because that is what caused things to happen as they did. You can't truly study history without it. I guess it just seemed so advanced in topic for that age level, and that is what is bugging me. Without a better religious background, it is a rather overwhelming undertaking for someone that age.

 

This project is most likely designed to broaden the students' understanding of Latin in the broad range of history (which includes church history), not to send them into an all-out tailspin trying to find materials.

 

I think you are right about the project's purpose. Unfortunately, we are in a major "tailspin"! Materials are a problem definitely, as well as the depth and scope [5 minutes seems like it would require a LOT of material].

 

I just didn't want to contact the teacher and make a fuss if I'm way out of line with my thinking.

 

Thanks again for responding!

Edited October 21, 2010 by natalie

[8filltheheart]

Am I missing something b/c I would not do the assignment via books. I would do online research of St. Augustine......there is TONS of info available on him appropriate for children.

 

http://www.google.com/search?q=st.+augustine+biography+for+children&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[Mrs.W]

Augustine: The Farmer's Boy of Tagaste by P. De Zeeuw is a chapter book (93 pages) on Augustine of Hippo. I think we got our copy from Veritas Press.

[natalie]

Am I missing something b/c I would not do the assignment via books. I would do online research of St. Augustine......there is TONS of info available on him appropriate for children.

 

http://www.google.com/search?q=st.+augustine+biography+for+children&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

That is a valid question.

 

There are several reasons for books versus online. First, as Kates stated:

 

Not all MS kids are at the point of finding and applying their own research.

This is where my daughter is right now. She just turned 12 and is just now learning these skills. Sorting through websites, deciding which are reliable, keeping track of which websites she got which information from, knowing which websites are safe, etc is a lot for her at this age to handle.

 

Also, even though "for children" was entered as one of the search terms, it does not mean that all is appropriate for children. [i actually did that same search prior to my original post as I know that is something that bothers some people :tongue_smilie:]

 

Links from that search take me to sources that broach such subjects as abortion, homosexuality, lust, etc. I'm not saying that no children should ever see these things, but it is not right for my daughter at this time in her life.

 

Some links over her head, as well as inappropriate.

 

Others are links simply to blogs; short biographies of a paragraph or so [hardly enough to fill a 5 minute presentation]; or to pages that are not for children, but simply have the word children on the page somewhere.

 

Anyway, that is the reason we were looking for books geared toward children :001_smile:.

Edited October 21, 2010 by natalie

[natalie]

Augustine: The Farmer's Boy of Tagaste by P. De Zeeuw is a chapter book (93 pages) on Augustine of Hippo. I think we got our copy from Veritas Press.

 

Is this a biography or a historical fiction? Do you think that it would provide enough information for a 5-minute presentation?

 

I just looked at Amazon and only saw it used, which may run into time issues - i.e. will we have enough time to get it, read it, and prepare a presentation. I will have to look around to see if we can get expedited shipping without paying a small fortune.

 

Thank you!

[natalie]

Argsmommy,

 

I see you have a 12-year-old daughter. Is this typical of a project you would expect of her or from her school [i see she goes to a classical school part time]?

 

I know my daughter is somewhat behind her peers in regards to writing as we've chosen to take a slower journey than others might. We truly believe, however, that this is what she needs, and that in the long run going slow will pay off for her.

 

We may have to reconsider online classes for her [other than her writing:tongue_smilie:] until she reaches that point if this is par for the course. We were caught off guard though, as it never occured to us that a beginniner level foreign language course would have a project such as this thrown in!

 

Thanks for any input!

Edited October 21, 2010 by natalie

[Faithr]

What I advise especially if you can't get Augustine of Tagaste in time to read and use it for the power point presentation is to find anthologies of saints biographies. There are many of these in the Catholic world. You could call up a Catholic church and see if they have a library or can recommend a library that would contain children's biographies of saints. Now maybe you could do this with other churches too, but since I'm Catholic I know that very often Catholic Churches have libraries with such resources. I'm sitting here with two such books on my desk. If I could I would lend them to you! One is called 57 Stories of the Saints and the other is Saints for Young Christians. Or if there happens to be a Catholic bookstore near you, you could pick them there. Maybe Protestant stores sell them as well????

 

Another lead is to look up Augustine's mother St Monica. In fact in the books I've mentioned, she's is paired with St. Augustine because their story is so intertwined.

 

I don't know how detailed the power point has to be but you could mention things like how big the Roman Empire was including North Africa. Maybe discuss Augustine' travels. Augustine was famous as a teacher of Rhetoric before he became a Christian. Your daughter could explain what that meant. Your daughter could also take famous quotes from St. Augustine such as "Our hearts are restless, Lord, until they rest in thee and try to find them in the original Latin. St. Augustine was converted by the teachings of St. Ambrose who is another very famous personage who converted many pagans to Christianity. So your daughter could learn a bit about him as well as he figures greatly in St. Augustine's story.

 

I wonder what on line class this is? I do think that this project is much more suitable to high schoolers than middle schoolers. And I also think they should have given you more information about St. Augustine or suggestions for your daughter. I'd complain.

[8filltheheart]

I think you are probably making the assignment more difficult than it needs to be.

 

FWIW, if it were my child, I would assist in the search for information so that the assignment serves the dual purpose of meeting the class's requirements as well as learning how to search for appropriate information.

 

It would be very simple to create a 5 min presentation of Augustine by giving a brief overview of his life, a short synopsis of several of his major literary works (City of God, Confessions, On Christian Teaching), and if there was a need for more time, info on his role in teaching against heresy.

 

If you really want a biography, though, I would recommend St. Augustine and his Search for Faith by Milton Lomask. It is OOP but is readily available.

Edited October 21, 2010 by 8FillTheHeart

[8filltheheart]

What I advise especially if you can't get Augustine of Tagaste in time to read and use it for the power point presentation is to find anthologies of saints biographies. There are many of these in the Catholic world. You could call up a Catholic church and see if they have a library or can recommend a library that would contain children's biographies of saints. Now maybe you could do this with other churches too, but since I'm Catholic I know that very often Catholic Churches have libraries with such resources. I'm sitting here with two such books on my desk. If I could I would lend them to you! One is called 57 Stories of the Saints and the other is Saints for Young Christians. Or if there happens to be a Catholic bookstore near you, you could pick them there. Maybe Protestant stores sell them as well????

 

Another lead is to look up Augustine's mother St Monica. In fact in the books I've mentioned, she's is paired with St. Augustine because their story is so intertwined.

 

I don't know how detailed the power point has to be but you could mention things like how big the Roman Empire was including North Africa. Maybe discuss Augustine' travels. Augustine was famous as a teacher of Rhetoric before he became a Christian. Your daughter could explain what that meant. Your daughter could also take famous quotes from St. Augustine such as "Our hearts are restless, Lord, until they rest in thee and try to find them in the original Latin. St. Augustine was converted by the teachings of St. Ambrose who is another very famous personage who converted many pagans to Christianity. So your daughter could learn a bit about him as well as he figures greatly in St. Augustine's story.

 

I wonder what on line class this is? I do think that this project is much more suitable to high schoolers than middle schoolers. And I also think they should have given you more information about St. Augustine or suggestions for your daughter. I'd complain.

 

Great suggestions, Faith. I love the idea about famous quotes.

[LND1218]

I also agree that kids this age aren't always ready to research on their own. It does seem like an odd assignment for LfC B because it's really geared for 4th graders. (DD 8 is in A - online this year in 3rd grade. DD 12 did it online in 5th.) Definitely, talk to the teacher about it.

 

On the other hand, this is very typical with classical classes esp online. I have one who is 12, and it's very common to have things like this.

 

My kids have all been asked to all start preparing presentations from a young age, so they get a lot of experience with it. 5 minutes isn't very much time at all. You would be surprised how little information it takes.

 

Was the requirement no more than 5 minute or no less than 5 minutes? That makes a big difference. Do a quick trial run through to see how much information she can get through in 5 minutes while doing a PP. It's surprising little information. It really is.

 

We recently wrote a 6 minute presentation for my 8 year old from a picture book on a historical figure. We had to keep taking stuff out because it was way too long!

 

Also usually teachers put projects like this out there from the beginning of the class. If you haven't received one, ask for a syllabus for the class so you aren't caught off guard in the future.

 

We use a lot of online resources - just filter them either through an internet filter or you doing it.

 

When I am researching online with my kids, I get them online show there where to go, what to do, etc. If we are using a search engine, I have them type in the words then I ask them to avert their eyes while the results come up. I pull up a few check them out and then we explore them together. Sometimes I print sections - sometimes I have to cut and paste into Word to avoid inappropriate material. It's not something they do alone. I don't think a teacher would have any trouble with you helping her out to find resources. I don't see that as any different than buying a book for her to read. You are just guiding her to the resources.

 

We usually have good results with Encyclopedia Britannica. Or look at the bottom of the page on any given topic on Wikipedia - they often have links, resources, etc. We often start there for direction on reputable sites.

 

Good luck with this! We loved studying Augustine when we did a few years ago! Augustine of Hippo anyway. I would guess that is the direction the teacher was thinking because he spoke Latin. :D

[natalie]

:001_smile:

What I advise especially if you can't get Augustine of Tagaste in time to read and use it for the power point presentation is to find anthologies of saints biographies. There are many of these in the Catholic world. You could call up a Catholic church and see if they have a library or can recommend a library that would contain children's biographies of saints. Now maybe you could do this with other churches too, but since I'm Catholic I know that very often Catholic Churches have libraries with such resources. I'm sitting here with two such books on my desk. If I could I would lend them to you! One is called 57 Stories of the Saints and the other is Saints for Young Christians. Or if there happens to be a Catholic bookstore near you, you could pick them there. Maybe Protestant stores sell them as well????

 

Another lead is to look up Augustine's mother St Monica. In fact in the books I've mentioned, she's is paired with St. Augustine because their story is so intertwined.

 

I don't know how detailed the power point has to be but you could mention things like how big the Roman Empire was including North Africa. Maybe discuss Augustine' travels. Augustine was famous as a teacher of Rhetoric before he became a Christian. Your daughter could explain what that meant. Your daughter could also take famous quotes from St. Augustine such as "Our hearts are restless, Lord, until they rest in thee and try to find them in the original Latin. St. Augustine was converted by the teachings of St. Ambrose who is another very famous personage who converted many pagans to Christianity. So your daughter could learn a bit about him as well as he figures greatly in St. Augustine's story.

 

 

 

Oh, Faithr! Thank you so much! What a wonderful help you’ve been!

 

I will check at the Catholic church for your book suggestions.

 

I had to let out a little giggle at the idea of going to a nearby Catholic or Protestant bookstore though. You would have too, if you were me. The only “bookstores†in our county are a Wal-mart and a Kmart, exactly one of each :D !

 

I did locate a Catholic bookstore in the next county, however. I will call them tomorrow as well. If they have either of those, I think I will make the drive and get them. If they don’t have them, I located 57 Stories of the Saints at adoremusbooks. When I’ve ordered from them in the past, I’ve always been amazed at how quickly my books have arrived! I really prefer to purchase books whenever I’m able so as to avoid situations like these with the younger children. All of our books get lots of use!

 

Your other suggestions are wonderful as well. I love the idea of the quotes in Latin!

 

My daughter may make it through this after all [even if I still think this assignment is too much for this level class :tongue_smilie:].

[Faithr]

I love adoremus books too! Glad I could help! Hope it works out for you. Please do tell us how it all goes!

[regentrude]

I do understand see what the problem is.

 

To get info for a five minute presentation does not require mountains of books. Since she is not supposed to write a full research report, internet plus an encyclopedia would do nicely. All she needs are about 5-6 slides.

 

I think it is actually an easy assignment for a 12 y/o. My 11 y/o has been designing power point presentations since 5th grade, he loves it and it is an easy tool that gives you great results - very rewarding for kids. It is easy to incorporate pictures, backgrounds, etc. Much easier than writing a report.

 

If you feel you can not let her do internet research unsupervised (my kids have been doing this for years, with no problems), it will still be faster for you to sit with her for an hour than to run to libraries and bookstores.

 

I also think 12 y/o it is not too early to get public speaking experience (in other countries, students begin much earlier to give presentations in front of the class).

 

So, i don't quite see the issue.

[regentrude]

I see you have a 12-year-old daughter. Is this typical of a project you would expect of her or from her school

 

I'm not argysmommy, but I have an 11 year old son whom I expect to prepare presentations on his history and science topics and then present to a group of family and friends. For a half hour presentation he would need about two weeks to research and prepare.

So for us, this type of assignment is very typical - and much more fun for the child to complete than writing a report or filling out work sheets.

[abbeyej]

Argsmommy,

I see you have a 12-year-old daughter. Is this typical of a project you would expect of her or from her school [i see she goes to a classical school part time]? ...

 

Just chiming in to say that I have an 11yo son, and the assignment seems very reasonable to me. You don't need a "pile of books" for a 5 minute presentation. You need some basic biographical information, a few pictures (not necessarily of St Augustine), and a couple of quotes.

 

I think you're making this more difficult than it needs to be -- and because of that, it's also more overwhelming and upsetting than it needs to be.

[Socalmom]

My younger DD attends a Catholic school and recently had to do a short report on a saint. I was able to find some books at the library that might be helpful - The Treasurey of Saints & Martyrs by Margaret Mulvihill and The Loyola Treasury of Saints by David Self. They each have 2 pages about Augustine. You might be able to find something at your library and use online resources if you need to add more detail.

 

Margie

[Mrs.W]

Sorry for the late reply! Yes, my DD12 has to do lots of little oral presentations like that, but not powerpoint presentations (probably due more to humble facilities than anything else). What I am surprised about however is that it's for LFC B. Seems like it might be a bit too much for the expected age group.

 

Augustine of Tagaste is historical fiction, so maybe for a short presentation other sources are more appropriate (especially if you are going to have to pay a fortune for shipping). It looks like you've received several good suggestions, so hopefully you're feeling better about things.

 

BTW, we loved LFC! My daughter only completed A & B and then skimmed C before she started at her private school, yet she knew her Latin very well compared to her peers that had been at the school for years. The Latin teacher acted like I was some amazing Latin scholar because I taught her so well! :lol:

[ladydusk]

 

Augustine by Simonetta Carr is a protestant look at Augustine of Hippo. This is a nice series of books for children on figures from Christian history. Just another resource if you/others are looking for more.

[Kirch]

You might be able to find enough information (or at least a good start) in an encyclopedia at your library. You might also check to see if they have any books on church history. They won't be aimed at children, but you might be able to help your daughter glean enough info from them for the assignment.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Just for an example, my kids that have done PS would have had that assignment in 2nd grade. Find internet info, type into powerpoint, add pics. The end. I don't think it seems out of a 12yo's range. JMHO

[angela in ohio]

I think it's an historical paper, not a religious one. We read and discussed City of God in my college readings class, and that was at a state school with an atheist professor. :D He is a major historical figure.

 

I don't think you need to buy a bunch of books. My 1999 World book has a page on him that could be used to make a 5-minute PP, with some additional internet searches for images.

 

I think it's excellent that they're assigning extra projects. Some kids get through Latin and never learn much beyond the book. My 14 yo dd is doing a paper for Latin this year.

 

I also don't think it's too much for the age. LFC is for 3rd-6th graders or so, I think, and this is an appropriate assignment for that age range, imho.

 

I do think 25% of the grade is high. That would make me think it will be graded easily, though, as it is probably meant to be an easy a way for students to bring their grades up. You often see projects of that type used to offset the grades for those who have trouble with tests or the material.

[natalie]

I do understand see what the problem is. [i'm assuming you meant "do NOT understand" :D]

 

To get info for a five minute presentation does not require mountains of books. Since she is not supposed to write a full research report, internet plus an encyclopedia would do nicely. All she needs are about 5-6 slides.

 

I read, outloud, word-for-word, the entire encyclopedia entry on Augustine of Hippo. It took me 2 minutes 52 seconds. Okay, we could stretch that into 5, but, in my mind, that is basically copying, which is plagiarism.

 

If you feel you can not let her do internet research unsupervised (my kids have been doing this for years, with no problems), it will still be faster for you to sit with her for an hour than to run to libraries and bookstores.

 

 

Lol … did you happen to catch the number and ages of the children in my signature? Trust me, it’s much easier to order books, or even drive to pick them up, [and going to the library wasn’t something we had an option of anyway since they have no books about him, just the same encyclopedia we have], than it is to sit with one child for that length of time uninterrupted. I’m sure others will disagree, but every family has different circumstances. Our family circumstances make that difficult.

 

I also think 12 y/o it is not too early to get public speaking experience (in other countries, students begin much earlier to give presentations in front of the class).

 

 

In general, I agree with this. I particularly think a powerpoint presentation is a great way to ease them into this, rather than the way it was done when I was a kid – just you and possibly a posterboard in front of the class. Yikes … that still brings back those feelings of dread!

 

So, i don't quite see the issue.

 

 

My dd, though 12, is enrolled in a class meant for approximately 4th grade; those are 9 year-olds. [Needless to say, there is a reason for this, which I won’t go into.] So, actually this isn’t an assignment for a 6th or 7th grade class, but for a 4th grade class, which in my mind is a huge difference.

[natalie]

I'm not argysmommy, but I have an 11 year old son whom I expect to prepare presentations on his history and science topics and then present to a group of family and friends. For a half hour presentation he would need about two weeks to research and prepare.

So for us, this type of assignment is very typical - and much more fun for the child to complete than writing a report or filling out work sheets.

 

Ah, but I also see your 13 year-old (usually 8th grade) is taking college physics and your 11 year-old (usually 6th grade) is doing algebra. They do not appear to necessarily be your typical children.

 

You may not have caught this, but we have our 12 year-old enrolled in a LfC B class (for reasons I do not feel the need to go into). According to the CAP website, the LfC series is meant for 3rd – 6th grade, which would put LfC B at 4th – 5th grade.

 

[Just as a side note, my daughter would vehemently disagree with you about the worksheet thing! Lol!]

[natalie]

You don't need a "pile of books" for a 5 minute presentation. You need some basic biographical information, a few pictures (not necessarily of St Augustine), and a couple of quotes.

 

 

Maybe that’s where my thinking is off. In my mind, copying from one encyclopedia is not acceptable, but is merely copying the work of others.

I think you're making this more difficult than it needs to be -- and because of that, it's also more overwhelming and upsetting than it needs to be.

Upsetting is probably a bit too strong a word. Highly annoyed, yes (but over it now :D). Upset as in distraught, no.

[natalie]

My younger DD attends a Catholic school and recently had to do a short report on a saint. I was able to find some books at the library that might be helpful - The Treasurey of Saints & Martyrs by Margaret Mulvihill and The Loyola Treasury of Saints by David Self. They each have 2 pages about Augustine. You might be able to find something at your library and use online resources if you need to add more detail.

 

Margie

 

Thank you! Our library does not have these, or anything similar, but I will check at the bookstore when I go! For some reason it didn't occur to me to look for treasuries/anthologies. There is a possibility some people we know may even have some of these. I will ask around.

[natalie]

Sorry for the late reply!

 

Thanks for taking the time to come back!

 

My daughter is loving LfC as well! It’s nice to know you had such good results with it. I hope we will have the same experience!

 

Thanks again. :001_smile:

[natalie]

Augustine by Simonetta Carr is a protestant look at Augustine of Hippo. This is a nice series of books for children on figures from Christian history. Just another resource if you/others are looking for more.

 

Thank you! It looks great! They also had Augustine, the Farmer’s Boy of Tagaste, which my dd is scheduled to read anyway next year (I like to plan ahead … lol!) The company is located fairly nearby, too, which hopefully means we will get the books soon.

[natalie]

Just for an example, my kids that have done PS would have had that assignment in 2nd grade. Find internet info, type into powerpoint, add pics. The end. I don't think it seems out of a 12yo's range. JMHO

 

Wow! I’m impressed!

 

My dc started out in ps. Dd’s older brother went through 4th grade. Although technically he was 3rd grade age – they skipped him past 3rd into 4th. He was considered the star of the school. He maxed out on all standardized testing and was one of the very few that was considered to have “exceeded standards†in writing. There is no way he would have been able to do this project in 2nd grade. My other children when in 2nd grade, even less of a chance. In 2nd grade, approximately age 7, mine were still working on capitalization, punctuation, spelling, and grammar. A very simple report on dogs, a simple science project with a report and presentation, a well-known famous person, perhaps. Researching a topic primarily on the internet, assembling the information, putting it in their own words (I do not permit copying), typing, proper grammar & composition, finding images and inserting them into the presentation, independently in 2nd grade, not a chance! I’m even impressed that your son was able to navigate powerpoint independently!

 

You, your children, and their school should be very proud [or I should be very ashamed :tongue_smilie:]. (No “snark†intended – I am very impressed! :001_smile:)

[natalie]

I think it's an historical paper, not a religious one. We read and discussed City of God in my college readings class, and that was at a state school with an atheist professor. :D He is a major historical figure.

 

I don't think you need to buy a bunch of books. My 1999 World book has a page on him that could be used to make a 5-minute PP, with some additional internet searches for images.

 

I think it's excellent that they're assigning extra projects. Some kids get through Latin and never learn much beyond the book. My 14 yo dd is doing a paper for Latin this year.

 

I also don't think it's too much for the age. LFC is for 3rd-6th graders or so, I think, and this is an appropriate assignment for that age range, imho.

 

I do think 25% of the grade is high. That would make me think it will be graded easily, though, as it is probably meant to be an easy a way for students to bring their grades up. You often see projects of that type used to offset the grades for those who have trouble with tests or the material.

 

Our World Book is 2003, I believe [i’m feeling too lazy to get up and double check right now … lol … please forgive me :)]. I checked earlier and it only has ½ page, which took me under 3 minutes to read aloud. It could be stretched out longer though.

 

I’m over the religious thing. I agree that although he was a religious figure, he was an important historical figure as well. It does seem to me though that the topic is more complex due to the fact that it is religious in nature as well, particularly for a child that does not yet have that background.

 

I think maybe where I’m going wrong, judging from many of the comments, is in my own expectations of this presentation. When I give my children a writing assignment, which I do, just on easier topics [e.g. a report on penguins is much simpler than a report on St. Augustine!], I expect them to read multiple resources about the subject. I do not let them rely solely on information found on the internet or copy out of an encyclopedia. I expect them not to simply be copying facts, but to actually understand the information and to be able to answer questions about it, thereby expanding upon the few blurbs that may get put onto a powerpoint screen. I also expect them it do primarily on their own, checking in with me for guidance as needed of course, as it is their project, not a “mommy & me†project.

 

So, I guess I just need to “let go†a little!

 

I’m over the initial annoyance. Sometimes one little thing can push you over the edge. This was one of those times, but I'm over it now. We’ll put on smiles, get to it, and get it done! :001_smile:

 

Thanks to everyone for the book suggestions. They were very helpful. They will be great resources in the future as well – we will be covering that time period in our history next year!

[angela in ohio]

Maybe that’s where my thinking is off. In my mind, copying from one encyclopedia is not acceptable, but is merely copying the work of others.

 

Upsetting is probably a bit too strong a word. Highly annoyed, yes (but over it now :D). Upset as in distraught, no.

 

Unless your child was born knowing about Augustine, they will need to "copy" from somewhere. Whether it is several novels about Augustine or an encyclopdia entry and some internet searches, the facts need to be copied from somewhere. No, you can't copy word for word sentences, but birth dates, names of parents, etc. are facts. A PP slide usually has info in more of an outline form, anyway, so copying out sentences isn't necessary. We use multiple sources for papers, as well, but this isn't a paper, just a PP.

 

Your library should have online access to several encyclopedias. You can pop on their site, print a few off, and have dd use those for info. As others have said, there are basic pieces of info you use for biographical works: birth, death, education, family, major works, etc. You can do a slide on each topic.

 

If it was me, I would explain to the teacher that my dd was older, and that I felt it more appropriate for her to write a paper than do a PP, which are usually for younger pre-paper-writing students. That would be less work for you, as you wouldn't have to help with the PP. If you think she needs more time, I would state that also.

 

If you don't want her to do the project, you can just not do it. You can still give her whatever grade you want for the class, no matter what the teacher gives her. As the homeschool mom, that is ultimately your call.

Edited October 22, 2010 by angela in ohio

[Joyofsixreboot]

Wow! I’m impressed!

 

My dc started out in ps. Dd’s older brother went through 4th grade. Although technically he was 3rd grade age – they skipped him past 3rd into 4th. He was considered the star of the school. He maxed out on all standardized testing and was one of the very few that was considered to have “exceeded standards†in writing. There is no way he would have been able to do this project in 2nd grade. My other children when in 2nd grade, even less of a chance.

 

You, your children, and their school should be very proud [or I should be very ashamed :tongue_smilie:]. (No “snark†intended – I am very impressed! :001_smile:)

 

Don't be too impressed. It was still 2nd grade content. They were directed to use Yahooligans to avoid "bad" web sites. Most of the kids seemed pretty familiar with the computer stuff. The teacher showed them all in groups of 4 or so how to use it. Many of them obviously copied and pasted from the encyclopedia. Slide 1 XXX was born XXX Slide 2 person's pic Slide 3 XXX was very good atXXX Slide 4 another pic. You get the idea but they did it. When the first one came home with the assignment I couldn't imagine it but they did it. I think the first one they did was an 'autobiography' so that got them used to the powerpoint without having to find info.

[regentrude]

I read, outloud, word-for-word, the entire encyclopedia entry on Augustine of Hippo. It took me 2 minutes 52 seconds. Okay, we could stretch that into 5, but, in my mind, that is basically copying, which is plagiarism.

...

My dd, though 12, is enrolled in a class meant for approximately 4th grade; those are 9 year-olds. [Needless to say, there is a reason for this, which I won’t go into.] So, actually this isn’t an assignment for a 6th or 7th grade class, but for a 4th grade class, which in my mind is a huge difference.

 

When my son was in a normal public elementary school in Germany, they did oral presentations in front of the class is 4th grade. So yes, I think it is appropriate even for a 4th grader who does not have to be an advanced student.

 

Using a source to find information is not plagiarism. Copying the entry word for word into a paper is plagiarism, but using the information about when he lived, what he did etc. is OK. You have to find the information somewhere and use it.

 

Giving a presentation and speaking freely is slower than reading facts alound from a printed text. There will be an introduction and conclusion, one will point to the visuals on the slides (a portrait, a map, a photograph of one of his books). I would say three minutes of read-aloud-text could easily correspond to five minutes of a free presentation. And again, unless she reads aloud the encylcopedia entry it is not plagiarism - the slides would just have a few key facts, and she would create her own sentences as she speaks.