s/o easy readers- what's wrong with memorizing a list of sight words?

[calandalsmom]

:iagree: I kept hitting the wall with SWR with ds7. I went to Recipe for Reading (a pure O-G) program, and went all the way up through the syllabication chapter with him, and then switched back to SWR. We just finished section D and it's been a breeze for him so far, and he's beginning to really be able to track/read a sentence fluidly. (Yeah for him!!!) And, he's finding all the rule pages/markings kinda fun...wanting to mark EVERYTHING!!!:lol: Anyway, I say all that b/c what you said rings true for us too. WRTR/SWR are solid, but too much too fast for some kids.

 

With my littlers, I am just doing Recipe for Reading in K before diving into SWR in 1st. I hope that will save any confusion down the road.

 

 

 

 

Those same 100 words can be learned through phonics, without the risk to those students with dyslexic tendencies.(with *very* few exceptions) Why not teach them phonics? ime - Many kids are learning sight words before ever learning to read cvc words. I don't *get* that!!!

 

My POV: If we are talking about us HSers each teaching our own, teach in whatever way works best for your dc. Educate yourself on the pros/cons of your methods, and tweak as necessary. If we are talking about classrooms full of kids, I think it is *malpractice* to teach in a manner that is known to cause serious problems for such a large percentage of students! Yes, that's dramatic.:tongue_smilie: But, when it's *MY* child who lies in that percentage, well....I'm bound to get that way whether we are talking about reading, vaccines, or carseats...:auto:ymmv

 

 

I don't think most classrooms across the country are relying on whole language tho they incorporate sight words. They are not relying enough on phonics and are leaning towards implicit rather than explicit phonics. I just dont think statistics bear out the assertion that schools are teaching sight words before covering some basic phonics and CVC words. Its certainly not the case in any of the 3 states we have lived in (OH, NJ and IN). The standards reflect that

 

http://dc.doe.in.gov/Standards/AcademicStandards/StandardSearch.aspx

 

Research seems to indicate what I believe: that for most average learners, some combination of both whole language and explicit phonics is the best of both worlds, at least that seems to be the gist of the research I am seeing out of IU.

[siloam]

I don't think most classrooms across the country are relying on whole language tho they incorporate sight words. They are not relying enough on phonics and are leaning towards implicit rather than explicit phonics. I just dont think statistics bear out the assertion that schools are teaching sight words before covering some basic phonics and CVC words. Its certainly not the case in any of the 3 states we have lived in (OH, NJ and IN). The standards reflect that

 

http://dc.doe.in.gov/Standards/AcademicStandards/StandardSearch.aspx

 

Research seems to indicate what I believe: that for most average learners, some combination of both whole language and explicit phonics is the best of both worlds, at least that seems to be the gist of the research I am seeing out of IU.

I wouldn't argue that average learners do fine with both.

 

But there are kids in the classroom who are not yet diagnosed and those who will never struggle quite enough to be considered for special services. They are the ones who are shredded in the process. And it takes so little more time and effort to just do a straight phonics appraoch and save those kids.

 

I know because I was one of them. Never was bad enough to qualify for services, but couldn't' sound out new words to save my life till I was 34. Couldn't read a pronunciation guide in Websters dictionary either. If only they had taken the time to teach straight phonics it would have saved me 34 years of reading problems and embarrassment. It is ridiculous and unnecessary.

 

Heather

Edited August 27, 2010 by siloam

[Lovedtodeath]

I am in IN and my daughter's school was stressing sight reading as the children were learning phonemic awareness (rhyming, etc.).

[ClassicalTwins]

I see I was quoted here with a link to lengthy conversation with ElizabethB. Here is my 2cents for what it is worth...

 

My twins went to a preK program and were sounding out cvc words and attempting to read as they moved to K. While attending ps where they were TAUGHT as explained to me by their K/1 teacher...the first word attack skill when reading is to look at context ie the picture and try to decode the word by the picture using the first letter...."we don't encourage sounding out....actually that is the last resort".

 

What did this translate into when reading with them the word "bug" could be but, ball, bear, or anything in the picture that possible started with "b".

 

I had to extremly frustrated children who did not want to read because the story made no sense and since if they tried to sound words out they were reminded to "look at the context of the picture".

 

After working with them for a few weeks with ElizabethB's suggestions, some playing on my part they got better and as one exclaimed one day "Sounding out does work!! Ms(insert K teacher name)....was dumb!" Now they do know it doesn't work all the time and then they can look at the picture or I just tell them, but they are not guessing every word on the page!

[FO4UR]

I don't think most classrooms across the country are relying on whole language tho they incorporate sight words. They are not relying enough on phonics and are leaning towards implicit rather than explicit phonics. I just dont think statistics bear out the assertion that schools are teaching sight words before covering some basic phonics and CVC words. Its certainly not the case in any of the 3 states we have lived in (OH, NJ and IN). The standards reflect that

 

http://dc.doe.in.gov/Standards/AcademicStandards/StandardSearch.aspx

 

Research seems to indicate what I believe: that for most average learners, some combination of both whole language and explicit phonics is the best of both worlds, at least that seems to be the gist of the research I am seeing out of IU.

 

I'm in OH. What the standards say and what actually happens from the children's POV may be 2 different things. I *know* people here who are having their 5yo's memorize a list of sight words BEFORE entering the K classroom, per school request. Of these same 5yo's, some do not even know their letters & sounds and most cannot blend to read a cvc word. So, in practice, they are memorizing sight words well before any phonics instruction at all!

 

Granted, that may be different in other districts and in other states. This is the reality of my irl friends here in "small-town" Ohio.

[catz]

Both my kids learned to read phonics side-by-side with sight words. They are both very prodigious readers. They really only needed an introduction and some encouragement to take off. My son went to PS for kindy and this is what they did there. They were very phonics heavy too though. What I've noticed with my kids is they move a word from "sound out" status to "sight word" status very quickly. So I think every kid is different. There are kindergartners and 1st graders just not ready to track words yet. I think as long as your reinforcing phonics practice, it doesn't hurt to learn and know a few sight words and it pays to watch for your own child's learning style.

[Snowfall]

Our local elementary school has their entire year online. I've looked at what they're doing in K and 1st grade, both last year and this year. In K, they're teaching the first list of sight words the second week of school, despite the fact that they're just starting on the sound the letter A makes (and they go alphabetically). 27 weeks into the school year, they know all the short vowel sounds and all the common consonant sounds (like when 'c' stands for /k/ or 'g' stands for /g/), but not the long vowel sounds OR the less common consonant sounds (like when 'c' stands for /s/ or 'g' stands for /j/). Yet they're reading words like 'little' and 'she'.

 

There's no way on earth that's a good combination of phonics and sight words. That's a whole bunch of sight words, with very, very little phonics. How little? So little that by the time they hit first grade, they've been "reading" their controlled readers for months, but their spelling lists consist of words like 'me', 'he', 'but', 'it'. I'm not saying a first grader should be able to spell harder words than that, but if the school and teachers are claiming these kids can actually READ (as in look at new words and read them) then they should be way past spelling simple words like that. Not to mention the fact that they shouldn't spend the first couple months of first grade learning the same words all over again. Supposedly my school district is a good one. :001_huh:

[Aoife]

I am right in the middle of dealing with the aftermath of a child who learned to read by sight words memorization and has finally reached the point where it has become painfully evident and is really causing troubles for her. She had a lot of trouble learning to read period in PS and now that she has learned to read the PS way she is having a terrible time spelling :( So we are now facing starting back at square one and teaching her actual phonics.

 

 

Now my question for you all is what about programs like OPGTR that teach phonics but also some sight words? I am using OPGTR with DS1 and it does teach some words as sight words like as, has, is, the, A, was ect. In your opinion is there a better way to teach a child these words then just as sight words and if so how? Is there a book or other resource I can get that can help me teach these words in another way that would make things easier on DS in the long run? I definitely would rather take the long slow path now then try and fix problems later down the line. :)

[Lovedtodeath]

In your opinion is there a better way to teach a child these words then just as sight words and if so how? Is there a book or other resource I can get that can help me teach these words in another way that would make things easier on DS in the long run? I definitely would rather take the long slow path now then try and fix problems later down the line. :)

OG programs usually cover these things. In OG based programs, as, for example, is a regular word because s has two sounds. /s/ and /z/. You can also look at Elizabeth's link, at the second half of the page it will give you some resources for teaching the sight words phonetically.

Since it only takes a few extra hours to teach the extra rules/patterns you need to teach them phonetically, why risk it?

[FO4UR]

 

 

Now my question for you all is what about programs like OPGTR that teach phonics but also some sight words? I am using OPGTR with DS1 and it does teach some words as sight words like as, has, is, the, A, was ect. In your opinion is there a better way to teach a child these words then just as sight words and if so how? Is there a book or other resource I can get that can help me teach these words in another way that would make things easier on DS in the long run? I definitely would rather take the long slow path now then try and fix problems later down the line. :)

 

I am using Recipe for Reading for K level, and SWR after that.

 

Your library probably has The Writing Road to Reading. Check that out. WRTR was written out of inspiration from Dr. Orton. (Orton- Gillingham...Recipe for Reading is O-G). SWR is a spin-off of WRTR. All About Spelling is O-G from what I understand and is highly popular on this board, though I've never used it.

[siloam]

like as, has, is, the, A, was

 

None of those are rule breakers that need to be memorized. All can be explained with basic phonics.

 

I would suggest Recipe for Reading, Spell to Write and Read, Writing Road to Reading, Phonics Road to Reading, ABeCeDarian. All are strong programs. There are other o/g programs, but they tend to be spendy because of the controlled readers: Horizons, Sounday, Prevent Academic Failure, Wilson Reading, S.P.I.R.E. Actually Explode the Code is also o/g based, and works well for a lot of kids.

 

Heather

[Beth in SW WA]

If your library has it maybe pick up a copy of Spell to Write and Read or Writing Road to Reading(did I get that title right:confused1:) even if you don't use SWR or WRTR you do walk away with a better understanding of the English language.

 

I just spent the last 3 full days in Wanda Sanseri's advanced SWR class. Wanda is amazing.

 

Master phonograms & spelling rules first. Sight words later. Much later. :)

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Actually Explode the Code is also o/g based, and works well for a lot of kids.

Heather, your posts on this topic (and especially comparing the true OG programs that are sequential and ordered to the spin-offs) are so helpful! This helps me too. I was planning to use at least some of WP Phonics with Jake before we start Phonics Road. I know that they use the vertical phonogram method and use ETC books.:)

[johnandtinagilbert]

I don't think most classrooms across the country are relying on whole language tho they incorporate sight words. They are not relying enough on phonics and are leaning towards implicit rather than explicit phonics. I just dont think statistics bear out the assertion that schools are teaching sight words before covering some basic phonics and CVC words. Its certainly not the case in any of the 3 states we have lived in (OH, NJ and IN). The standards reflect that

 

http://dc.doe.in.gov/Standards/AcademicStandards/StandardSearch.aspx

 

Research seems to indicate what I believe: that for most average learners, some combination of both whole language and explicit phonics is the best of both worlds, at least that seems to be the gist of the research I am seeing out of IU.

The ones here are relying heavily on sight words and it shows by 3rd grade. Schools are so worried about children and FCAT scores that they want the appearance of reading more than they are fulfilling the skill of reading.

I'm in OH. What the standards say and what actually happens from the children's POV may be 2 different things. I *know* people here who are having their 5yo's memorize a list of sight words BEFORE entering the K classroom, per school request. Of these same 5yo's, some do not even know their letters & sounds and most cannot blend to read a cvc word. So, in practice, they are memorizing sight words well before any phonics instruction at all!

 

Granted, that may be different in other districts and in other states. This is the reality of my irl friends here in "small-town" Ohio.

:iagree: my friend's dc received that list too and b/c her daughter hadn't yet memorized the long list of words, they were talking about her failing K in December! I shared some phonics materials with her and viola...her daughter was reading far better books (beyond controlled readers) by the end of 1st grade.

 

I am right in the middle of dealing with the aftermath of a child who learned to read by sight words memorization and has finally reached the point where it has become painfully evident and is really causing troubles for her. She had a lot of trouble learning to read period in PS and now that she has learned to read the PS way she is having a terrible time spelling :( So we are now facing starting back at square one and teaching her actual phonics. ME TOO...it's a bummer

 

 

Now my question for you all is what about programs like OPGTR that teach phonics but also some sight words? I am using OPGTR with DS1 and it does teach some words as sight words like as, has, is, the, A, was ect. In your opinion is there a better way to teach a child these words then just as sight words and if so how? Is there a book or other resource I can get that can help me teach these words in another way that would make things easier on DS in the long run? I definitely would rather take the long slow path now then try and fix problems later down the line. :)

as, has, and is are phonetic words :) as someone else mentioned the second sound of S is /z/. I wanted to add The Phonics Road to Spelling and Reading to the list of OG programs. It has changed the way we home school and I LOVE it. I'll never rec. anything less than a solid phonics based program again. Especially now that I'm living the results of a smart child who was taught primarily to guess and use sight words...it's a nightmare.

[MerryAtHope]

Merry, is there any news on AAR? More samples? Cost? What it will have besides the reader? Phonemic awareness activities like in Before the Code? I forgot all about it because it isn't available yet.

 

Sorry, I don't have any new news on AAR! What I know:

 

All About Reading Pre-1 is tentatively set to come out in October. This program covers phonological awareness; sounds of the letters of the alphabet plus beginning phonograms such as sh, th, ch; learning to blend sounds in order to read CVC words; and more. The instruction is through child-friendly hands-on activities. By the time the child completes the program, he has a strong foundation for reading and spelling and can easily move right into All About Spelling and All About Reading.

 

All About Reading follows the same sequence as All About Spelling, and the first level of the program is due to be released by the end of the year. This is for new and struggling readers of all ages. The program includes decoding skills, fluency, comprehension, vocabulary and lots and lots of reading practice. It will use letter tiles just like AAS does.

 

Merry :-)

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Master phonograms & spelling rules first. Sight words later. Much later. :)

Orton-Gillingham.com has this program: Sensational Strategies for Teaching Beginning Readersâ„¢ with a video that teaches parents how to teach the OG method. Phonics Road also has videos that teach her method to the parent (actually, she teaches every lesson to the parent, which can be slow sometimes... but relaxing too. lol).

[Beth in SW WA]

Orton-Gillingham.com has this program: Sensational Strategies for Teaching Beginning Readersâ„¢ with a video that teaches parents how to teach the OG method. Phonics Road also has videos that teach her method to the parent (actually, she teaches every lesson to the parent, which can be slow sometimes... but relaxing too. lol).

 

Imho, the danger of the OG link you mentioned is associating cutesy pictures with the sounds. Students need to see the phonogram only to learn the sound without any extra cues to clutter that process.

 

Again, I'm coming off 21 hours of Wanda Sanseri. I'm a bit biased. SWR is teacher intensive, but the results are fabulous.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Imho, the danger of the OG link you mentioned is associating cutesy pictures with the sounds. Students need to see the phonogram only to learn the sound without any extra cues to clutter that process.

I thought it was weird that they had the pictures on the cards, too. It is the official OG program! The follow up is Recipe for Reading, and then How to Teach Spelling. I have been communicating with them.

[ClassicalTwins]

. Especially now that I'm living the results of a smart child who was taught primarily to guess and use sight words...it's a nightmare.

 

 

Please. make. the. guessing. stop.....and finally it has begun to!!!!

[Lovedtodeath]

@ Beth again... Do you know I am going with WP partly because of their phonogram cards? They have cues like Abe the Astronaut from Australia. I know... bad, bad... but Emily could have used those I think... of course now I will stop trying to remember ou and she will rattle them off... so I could be wrong.:tongue_smilie:

[siloam]

Orton-Gillingham.com has this program: Sensational Strategies for Teaching Beginning Readersâ„¢ with a video that teaches parents how to teach the OG method. Phonics Road also has videos that teach her method to the parent (actually, she teaches every lesson to the parent, which can be slow sometimes... but relaxing too. lol).

It is one of those things where you could buy a SWR, WRTR or AAS card pack and still use the program.

 

For those who are wondering why, the problem for some LD kids is that they form a dependency on recalling the picture order to recall the sound, which slows them down terribly. Automatic recall of the letter to the sound is needed and might take longer without the pictures, but you eliminate the danger of forming a dependency.

 

Same thing with music. The brain stores music in a different place than it does reading information, so in order to recall it the student has to sing it. Average students can use it as a bridge to get there faster, but a certain amount of LD students will become dependent on it in order to remember the information at all. Given LD students are sensitive to begin with, they are often put into situations where they would rather be wrong than be caught singing the song under their breath.

 

Heather

[Lovedtodeath]

Given LD students are sensitive to begin with, they are often put into situations where they would rather be wrong than be caught singing the song under their breath.

Oh Heather, I think you know my daughter.

[siloam]

Heather, your posts on this topic (and especially comparing the true OG programs that are sequential and ordered to the spin-offs) are so helpful! This helps me too. I was planning to use at least some of WP Phonics with Jake before we start Phonics Road. I know that they use the vertical phonogram method and use ETC books.:)

 

Thanks!

 

How is Phonics Road going? I have a love hate relationship Barton right now. The first level is all sound work, which with my ds auditory processing issues is his weakest area. I think I am going to end up moving him on to level 2 because he can read CVC words; he does great with sound to letter recall, he just doesn't do sound alone recall well. I figure I can continue to work on level 1 as well go because I do realize he needs that ability for spelling. I just don't want to hold him up on reading for it.

 

The funny thing is WP does the same thing the other program you posted does, they use pictures on their phonogram cards. :rolleyes:

 

Heather

[Aoife]

OK so could I continue teaching with OPGTR and ETC and when we hit a "sight" word use something else to teach the word phonetically rather then teaching them as memorized sight words with the cards as the book instructs? Or would it just be better to switch into something else all together and if so what would be the best and easiest to implement for a teacher or that I can use for a beginning reader and remediating a 9yo? I like hand holding in this area so scripted is best :) thanks!

[ElizabethB]

Please. make. the. guessing. stop.....and finally it has begun to!!!!

 

:hurray:

 

:party:

 

:hurray:

 

:001_smile:!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ElizabethB]

OK so could I continue teaching with OPGTR and ETC and when we hit a "sight" word use something else to teach the word phonetically rather then teaching them as memorized sight words with the cards as the book instructs? Or would it just be better to switch into something else all together and if so what would be the best and easiest to implement for a teacher or that I can use for a beginning reader and remediating a 9yo? I like hand holding in this area so scripted is best :) thanks!

 

Those are good, but you will need to supplement with nonsense words to stop the guessing problems and help switch over from guessing mode to sounding out mode.

 

My game makes both nonsense and real words, and my online lessons have nonsense words and are specifically designed for a remedial older student. I will link to the game later if you can't find it, I can not link well right now.

 

I can also have more detailed advice later if you wish!

[FO4UR]

 

 

For those who are wondering why, the problem for some LD kids is that they form a dependency on recalling the picture order to recall the sound, which slows them down terribly. Automatic recall of the letter to the sound is needed and might take longer without the pictures, but you eliminate the danger of forming a dependency.

 

Same thing with music. The brain stores music in a different place than it does reading information, so in order to recall it the student has to sing it. Average students can use it as a bridge to get there faster, but a certain amount of LD students will become dependent on it in order to remember the information at all. Given LD students are sensitive to begin with, they are often put into situations where they would rather be wrong than be caught singing the song under their breath.

 

Heather

 

:iagree:

 

Happy Phonics! ds7's breakthrough with the phonograms came through playing the HP games. Those games give enough concentrated practice with 1 phonogram (or group of phonograms) at a time. It's a betrayal of Wanda Sanseri and SWR:tongue_smilie:, but I LOVE LOVE LOVE the way most of the phonograms are taught/practiced. No songs. No picture cues. Just focused practice that doesn't feel like torture!:001_smile:

[siloam]

OK so could I continue teaching with OPGTR and ETC and when we hit a "sight" word use something else to teach the word phonetically rather then teaching them as memorized sight words with the cards as the book instructs? Or would it just be better to switch into something else all together and if so what would be the best and easiest to implement for a teacher or that I can use for a beginning reader and remediating a 9yo? I like hand holding in this area so scripted is best :) thanks!

 

Yes that would work. Even if they don't know the sound yet you can just give it to them every time they come to the word. Like with the, you can first explain that it came from thee, and when it was shortened to the we also started to be lazy in our pronunciation and we most people incorrectly use thu. I generally give my kids the option to use either the or thu as a pronunciation. But if they are reading and hesitate at the word I don't make them sound it out because they haven't been directly taught those sounds yet. I sound it out for them and I always use the phonetically correct e. Same with a, allow them to use either, but if I have to step in and help I use the correct long a.

 

Heather

 

[siloam]

Those are good, but you will need to supplement with nonsense words to stop the guessing problems and help switch over from guessing mode to sounding out mode.

 

My game makes both nonsense and real words, and my online lessons have nonsense words and are specifically designed for a remedial older student. I will link to the game later if you can't find it, I can not link well right now.

 

I can also have more detailed advice later if you wish!

 

Adding in nonsense words would be even better. It forces the child to use the rules whether they like it or not. ;) We all know the problem is they would rather not, so this makes them. Once they can use the rules proficiently with nonsense words they generally automatically use them when reading. Sneaky hua? :D

 

Heather

[johnandtinagilbert]

Imho, the danger of the OG link you mentioned is associating cutesy pictures with the sounds. Students need to see the phonogram only to learn the sound without any extra cues to clutter that process.

 

Again, I'm coming off 21 hours of Wanda Sanseri. I'm a bit biased. SWR is teacher intensive, but the results are fabulous.

We are getting through this by not using their cards. Since I kinda combined SS, PR and Recipe for Reading, it's easy enough to do the cards yourself, simply by writing them on notecards. I.e....I totally agree with you!

 

Please. make. the. guessing. stop.....and finally it has begun to!!!!

I know what you mean. I am working through this by using nonsense words. It is finally beginning to slow down...it's been an entire year!

 

OK so could I continue teaching with OPGTR and ETC and when we hit a "sight" word use something else to teach the word phonetically rather then teaching them as memorized sight words with the cards as the book instructs? Or would it just be better to switch into something else all together and if so what would be the best and easiest to implement for a teacher or that I can use for a beginning reader and remediating a 9yo? I like hand holding in this area so scripted is best :) thanks!

Yes, keep what you're doing, just use phonetic rules where possible. You may want to go through and teach the second sounds of letters before moving forward. (like the second sound of s we mentioned earlier). I was going to suggest what Heather did below.

 

Adding in nonsense words would be even better. It forces the child to use the rules whether they like it or not. ;) We all know the problem is they would rather not, so this makes them. Once they can use the rules proficiently with nonsense words they generally automatically use them when reading. Sneaky hua? :D

 

Heather

Heather, I continue to heart you on this subject matter. You articulate this area so well and bless me each time I read your posts.

[Teachaheart]

I agree, though I do have one exception. Some dyslexic and LD students are overwhelmed by the volume. They need the incremental approach that full o/g (as apposed to WRTR being o/g based) program use. O/G program do eventually get where Spalding goes, it just takes longer to get there because it directly teaches each sound one at a time to mastery.

 

I had two dyselxic students who had previous incremental phonics instruction who did great with SWR (WRTR offshoot) and I had one who despite having some incremental instruction and reading at a 2nd grade level fluently, was in tears daily becuase more than one rule or new sound at a time left her feeling lost. It probably goes back to the concrete vs. abstract that I was talking about earlier. Abstract thinkers can take in information in any order and mentally put it in its place. Concrete thinkers have a hard time doing this. They need to see the big picture then learn things one step at a time in order to mastery.

 

For non dyslexic students, even concrete thinkers they are often able to see enough of the pieces and how they fit to do Spalding, eventually. They would probably be overwhelmed at first, but step by step they would come out of the fog. It gets non-LD students reading faster than straight o/g can and without using sight words.

 

Heather

 

 

Thanks for chiming in here, Heather! I understand exactly what you are saying. I have one student whom I strongly suspect is dyslexic, and I've had to modify and supplement Spalding and take it at a slower pace with him. That, of course, is one benefit of having a 1:1 student/teacher ratio. O/G programs are without a doubt the best for students with dyslexia and dysgraphia.

[Aoife]

So I am at the stuck place of deciding between going with AAS again or SWR and I am just not sure which to choose :lol: So for those of you that have used both or either which is more open and go and has more hand holding and is more "scheduled". I can see with SWR I'd need the set which is 90 on amazon. With AAS I would need the tiles and the level 1 and 2 sets most likely which would run 79 + ship so they are comparable for the initial cost of start up for me.

[ElizabethB]

So I am at the stuck place of deciding between going with AAS again or SWR and I am just not sure which to choose :lol: So for those of you that have used both or either which is more open and go and has more hand holding and is more "scheduled". I can see with SWR I'd need the set which is 90 on amazon. With AAS I would need the tiles and the level 1 and 2 sets most likely which would run 79 + ship so they are comparable for the initial cost of start up for me.

 

AAS is idiot proof, lots of hand holding and such.

 

It took me ten years of tutoring and 3 or 4 read throughs until I understood WRTR, and I have not looked extensively at SWR, but it looks almost the same as WRTR.

[Aoife]

AAS is idiot proof, lots of hand holding and such.

 

It took me ten years of tutoring and 3 or 4 read throughs until I understood WRTR, and I have not looked extensively at SWR, but it looks almost the same as WRTR.

 

 

Thanks! that is exactly what I needed to hear :) AAS it is then and thanks a ton for all the info ladies I have added like crazy to my bookmark list :lol:

[siloam]

So I am at the stuck place of deciding between going with AAS again or SWR and I am just not sure which to choose :lol: So for those of you that have used both or either which is more open and go and has more hand holding and is more "scheduled". I can see with SWR I'd need the set which is 90 on amazon. With AAS I would need the tiles and the level 1 and 2 sets most likely which would run 79 + ship so they are comparable for the initial cost of start up for me.

Hands down AAS is more scripted. With SWR you have to read the SWR manual and understand the program before you can start the spelling lists in the WISE guide. AAS you can set up the cards, tiles and read the intro. From there it is pretty open and go. Now the schedule is loose, so you can adjust it for the child. But in the AAS yahoo group there are some examples of how different people use it.

 

For example my oldest does a "step" (like a chapter or unit) in two days. The first day she does all the analysis/teaching work, the second she spells the words and does the writing station. My 3rd dd does a step over a couple of weeks, doing each little analysis/teaching piece on separate days, then she only does parts of the spelling list at a time.

 

Heather

[siloam]

Thanks for chiming in here, Heather! I understand exactly what you are saying. I have one student whom I strongly suspect is dyslexic, and I've had to modify and supplement Spalding and take it at a slower pace with him. That, of course, is one benefit of having a 1:1 student/teacher ratio. O/G programs are without a doubt the best for students with dyslexia and dysgraphia.

 

Agreed!

 

You also nailed the distinct advantage of WRTR over SWR, you can modify it to meet a students need because the lists are not pre-selected.

 

Heather

[Dinsfamily]

I went with SWR over WRTR because of the extra hand-holding, but it isn't scripted like AAS. I haven't used AAS but I've gathered that it moves slower than SWR and has a bit of a different structure. Both good programs but would fit different needs.

 

The initial cost may be the same (when buying AAS 1&2) but SWR would be cheaper in the long run.

[Beth in SW WA]

AAS is idiot proof, lots of hand holding and such.

 

It took me ten years of tutoring and 3 or 4 read throughs until I understood WRTR, and I have not looked extensively at SWR, but it looks almost the same as WRTR.

 

Before my first exposure to WRTR or SWR I had no formal training or specialization in these methods. If *I* figured it out - and am having success -- anyone (and I mean *anyone*) can learn the method and teach it.

 

AAS, from what I read & hear, is more simple to get started. Do the students learn the 70 phonograms, advanced phonograms & spelling rules (as outlined by Spalding and elaborated on by Sanseri)?

 

Wanda mentioned this week that she did not know if the think-to-spell method (the heart of her program) is used by the new'ish programs like AAS and PR. She despises the use of magnets since the students are not seeing, saying, hearing, writing the words as they think-to-spell. The logic required to mark/analyze the words according to rules is a lesson in and of itself. No logic workbooks needed here. :)

 

Her new dvd, Hidden Secrets, which I bought months ago, is a wonderful intro to her program.

 

I totally understand that SWR & WRTR are not for everyone. It is the meat & potatoes of a language arts program and requires some heavy attention (hence, the 3-day advanced class).

[creekmom]

Thank you for all the responses! When I mentioned being tempted to teach the way ps does, I did not mean whole language. My nephews' school is very successful at teaching reading (it's a blue ribbon school with unbelievable test scores and parent support). My sister said they do both- sight words and phonics. I don't know how extensive the phonics teaching is, but it apparently works pretty well. After reading your responses, I'm reminded that the phonics approach is "tried and true" and will continue to use it.

 

I do have a question for ElizabethB - your opinion of phonics/programs means a lot to me. It is my understanding that you prefer the Websters program first, and that OPGTR and Phonics Pathways rank highly with you as well. Are you also giving AAS your stamp of approval as far as teaching reading goes?

[siloam]

Before my first exposure to WRTR or SWR I had no formal training or specialization in these methods. If *I* figured it out - and am having success -- anyone (and I mean *anyone*) can learn the method and teach it.

 

I haven't had formal training and still I struggle with SWR, after three years of using it. But I know it is partly because I need to see the big picture then see the pieces in order step by step (extreme concrete thinker here) and that isn't the way the program is laid out. I also have never finished the SWR guide, being dyslexic myself I am a slow reader, and she goes into such detail on each section that I get bogged down in getting the deeper details.

 

AAS I opened and went (after prepping the cards and tiles). I don't have any prep work on a daily basis either, just when I go to the next book.

 

AAS, from what I read & hear, is more simple to get started. Do the students learn the 70 phonograms, advanced phonograms & spelling rules (as outlined by Spalding and elaborated on by Sanseri)?

 

Yes, just not from the beginning. Just like SWR holds of on teaching the advanced phonograms till later, AAS just has more steps of phonograms, but eventually gets to the same place. Level 1 starts out with 32 phongorams, and each level there after adds more.

 

The spelling rules are introduced as the student is expected to spell the words, not up front all at once.

 

BTW this is the point that Dr. Orton and Spalding went their separate ways on. Spalding went for a program that appeals to more main stream kids getting them reading quickly (and WRTR/SWR does that). O/G programs target LD students that just can't memorize that volume of material, especially without practically using it.

 

Wanda mentioned this week that she did not know if the think-to-spell method (the heart of her program) is used by the new'ish programs like AAS and PR. She despises the use of magnets since the students are not seeing, saying, hearing, writing the words as they think-to-spell. The logic required to mark/analyze the words according to rules is a lesson in and of itself. No logic workbooks needed here. :)

 

AAS does, I can't speak specifically to PR, but I want to say someone told me it did. We need LovedtoDeath to weigh on on this one.

 

AAS teaches 4 spelling strategies. The first of which is to pronounce for spelling like SWR teaches. Next it to Analyze the word. 1. What letters are being used to spell each sound? 2. What spelling rules apply? 3. Use syllable rules, 4. Is there a silent e and what job is it functioning in? and 5. Is there a prefix or suffix? Step 3 is to use scratch paper and try different spellings to see if one looks right. This is for situations where more than one phonogram can be used like /er/ words, is it nurse or nerse? Writing out can help you see it. The 4th strategy is to identify the base words, using the example of addition having the base word of add, gives you a clue that the d might be doubled and why.

 

I know Wanda doesn't like the use of tiles, and I agree that there is a danger in having them in the program that some parents will drop the writing part, not realizing its importance.

 

BUT AAS wants the child to use the tiles first, then follow it up by writing the same exact thing. If someone does otherwise they are modifying the program. I actually find more people drop the tiles in favor of writing because they have older kids who just aren't into the tiles. My oldest two only use the tiles for new teaching, and write all their spelling words.

 

BTW I do have Barton level 1. I haven't used it I am getting ready to and I haven't watched the videos yet, so I might have missed something. There are two things that I don't care for in it. First they use visualizing of things to represent sounds like apples for short a (no pictures in print, just have the child see it in their mind). I am with Wanda on that one, I don't care for it. Second is they don't seem to follow all the work up with writing. I am going to have my ds visualize the letter not an apple and I will have him also writing everything he builds with tiles.

 

The tiles really do the same analyzing as the mark ups. The child has to first think about what tiles are being used, if there is a two letter phonogram they have to remember and find the two letter phonogram tile instead of the two separate tiles. They have to think with y if it is functioning as a vowel or as a consonant because you use red if it is a vowel and blue if it is a consonant. Because it uses syllable rules (which I know Wanda is also not big on, and I am fine with that) it forces the student to look at the vowels and consonants and what function they are working as in the word in order to get the syllable tags right. Once more they also have other reinforcements like the silent e book where they child lists each silent e word under the different silent e rules. There is no checking the brain at the door here either.

 

That said both are excellent programs. I think SWR is stronger for regular students because it gets them reading more quickly, and it probably is a little stronger for auditory learners. I think AAS is a bit stronger for LD students because it isn't as overwhelming (though some LD students don't have that problem, depends if they are an abstract or concrete thinker) and I think it works better for hands on learners because the tiles provide something for the fingers to do. For example my ds was stuggling with blending. He is a kinesthetic learner, who is always moving and touching things. In Barton they have hands movements the child can join in on and just by using those he was able to focus and both blend and break words appart that he could not do so before. Vision students can go either way. If they do better with color the tiles will probably work better, but if they don't need color then the markings can serve the same function just as well.

 

Heather

[ElizabethB]

I do have a question for ElizabethB - your opinion of phonics/programs means a lot to me. It is my understanding that you prefer the Websters program first, and that OPGTR and Phonics Pathways rank highly with you as well. Are you also giving AAS your stamp of approval as far as teaching reading goes?

 

I've only seen the samples, but I've been impressed with those, and I like all the same other phonics programs that many people who like AAS like. (I also do like all OG methods, but the cost is so high (except for Recipe for Reading by Traub and Bloom) that I try to recommend other things first unless money is no object and the student doesn't have much experimentation time left.

 

It seem like you could use AAS for reading and spelling for an older child who already has some phonics knowledge and could move through fairly quickly, but just spelling for a younger child who hasn't learned much phonics yet.

 

With my remedial students, getting them to do some spelling and nonsense words seem to help speed the remediation process. The Webster syllables allow them to advance to a higher final reading grade level.

[Aoife]

I am about to put through my AAS order and just wanted to double check on one thing first :tongue_smilie:

 

My DS is young (4yo) and he isn't quite ready for writing yet so would be a huge problem to modify AAS to skip the writing and just use the tiles for now until he is ready for that part? He is really loving the learning to read process and is eager to get to where he can read the big boy books we have collected for him. We plan on continuing with OPGTR but skipping learning "sight words" and do the AAS right alongside. I may take a break though with the OPGTR to begin the AAS and get through the beginning of book one then pick back up with it and do them alongside. Just when we come to "sight words" in OPGTR we'll approach them by teaching them phonetically rather then by memorization. I can say that I did notice that after learning the first few "sight words" DS would start to guess more at other words instead of sounding them out like he had been doing previously.

 

Thank you so much ladies!!! I really can't thank you enough for your help and wisdom in this area!! :D :grouphug:

[siloam]

I am about to put through my AAS order and just wanted to double check on one thing first :tongue_smilie:

 

My DS is young (4yo) and he isn't quite ready for writing yet so would be a huge problem to modify AAS to skip the writing and just use the tiles for now until he is ready for that part? He is really loving the learning to read process and is eager to get to where he can read the big boy books we have collected for him. We plan on continuing with OPGTR but skipping learning "sight words" and do the AAS right alongside. I may take a break though with the OPGTR to begin the AAS and get through the beginning of book one then pick back up with it and do them alongside. Just when we come to "sight words" in OPGTR we'll approach them by teaching them phonetically rather then by memorization. I can say that I did notice that after learning the first few "sight words" DS would start to guess more at other words instead of sounding them out like he had been doing previously.

 

Thank you so much ladies!!! I really can't thank you enough for your help and wisdom in this area!! :D :grouphug:

 

I wouldn't drop it entirely I would modify it. Generally at that age the problem is they don't have the fine motor control needed. Thus I have them write in sand with their index finger. It doesn't take a lot of motor control, but still gets the physical hand movements going.

 

But if needed, yes, even Wanda has paper tiles to use with such young children. The goal is always to get them writing ASAP though.

 

Heather

[johnandtinagilbert]

 

Wanda mentioned this week that she did not know if the think-to-spell method (the heart of her program) is used by the new'ish programs like AAS and PR.

PR says the word, says it in a sentence, then asks for which sounds the child hears. The teacher writes out the word for the student (or the student may write it out) using sounds. If a child says a instead of ay for example, the teacher reminds of rule tunes or gives hints toward the correct sound of /A/ "What other sounds do you know say /A/?" or "Can you think of a team that says /A/. Pretty much think-to-spell as I understand it. It does provide spelling cards that can be made into tiles, but we admittedly never use them. We stick to using the white board for the initial spelling of each word (they are now writing it, instead of me), then they copy in their "best hand writing" the word onto their spelling list for the week.

[Aoife]

I wouldn't drop it entirely I would modify it. Generally at that age the problem is they don't have the fine motor control needed. Thus I have them write in sand with their index finger. It doesn't take a lot of motor control, but still gets the physical hand movements going.

 

But if needed, yes, even Wanda has paper tiles to use with such young children. The goal is always to get them writing ASAP though.

 

Heather

 

will be stopping on my way home tomorrow to get play sand and a rubbermaid box now :lol: That is a great idea and DS would LOVE it!

[kitten18]

will be stopping on my way home tomorrow to get play sand and a rubbermaid box now :lol: That is a great idea and DS would LOVE it!

Some other things you can use are fine sandpaper, thick fabric (like velvet), rice in a baking pan, and thick carpet.

 

 

I just ordered AAS last Friday, received it Mon!!! and started it with DD on Tuesday. I just LOVE it, I'm sorry I put off buying it for so long.

 

After seeing my stuff, my friend is going to order it and I'm having her order a student pack for DS (4). I'm going to start the phonograms with him (I think he pretty much knows the 1st sound that all the letters make) and probably start OPGTR with him soon.

 

I checked out WRTR from the library last year and I was just :001_huh::001_huh::001_huh:.

 

I'm pretty new to homeschooling but I've come to realize that I like somewhat scripted programs that are VERY easy to use, "tell me exactly what to do".:tongue_smilie:

[siloam]

Heather, I continue to heart you on this subject matter. You articulate this area so well and bless me each time I read your posts.

 

Thanks! I have a serious passion for it becuase it has affect so much of my life, and I don't want my kids to face the same issues.

 

Heather

 

[Lovedtodeath]

Some may be interested in this topic: Comparing Phonics Road to All About Spelling. At first I thought that Phonics Road was very much the SWR method (and same rules almost word for word) but in a daily schedule with DVDs as the teacher's instruction, but there are things like the finger spelling that PR is missing.

Before my first exposure to WRTR or SWR I had no formal training or specialization in these methods. If *I* figured it out - and am having success -- anyone (and I mean *anyone*) can learn the method and teach it.

 

AAS, from what I read & hear, is more simple to get started. Do the students learn the 70 phonograms, advanced phonograms & spelling rules (as outlined by Spalding and elaborated on by Sanseri)?

 

Wanda mentioned this week that she did not know if the think-to-spell method (the heart of her program) is used by the new'ish programs like AAS and PR. She despises the use of magnets since the students are not seeing, saying, hearing, writing the words as they think-to-spell. The logic required to mark/analyze the words according to rules is a lesson in and of itself. No logic workbooks needed here. :)

 

Her new dvd, Hidden Secrets, which I bought months ago, is a wonderful intro to her program.

 

I totally understand that SWR & WRTR are not for everyone. It is the meat & potatoes of a language arts program and requires some heavy attention (hence, the 3-day advanced class).

Things that may be missing from Phonics Road: SWR has a finger spelling method and AAS has you pull buttons down... both are ways of segmenting a word into a number of sounds before using phonograms. PR does not have this. AAS has extensive syllable work. I feel like this is important. We have come across syllable rules, but if I had not done AAS first I would not have gotten the understanding from PR.

 

PR is all about analyzing words and marking them. That is why I am taking my time with our last few weeks of PR 1. We are marking the phonograms and analyzing the "why". For example, the suffix has taken the silent e away, but the vowel still says its name because of the base word.

 

Some other things you can use are fine sandpaper, thick fabric (like velvet), rice in a baking pan, and thick carpet.

 

It really helped Emily to write them in the air. You should also see what Tina uses here.

 

I am not sure when I will be starting PR with Jake. I like the spiral format of PR now, but I am not sure that I will like it with someone who is completely new to spelling and readin, kwim? How to Teach Spelling is set up in an order similar to AAS, and now that I know the PR rule tunes I can incorporate them (my main problem with HTTS was the complicated way that they stated the rules). Actually, after using and looking at so many programs, I think HTTS with the rule tunes is ideal.

Edited August 29, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[Cindyz]

Thank you for this thread. I was wondering if we should work on the sight words and now I know that we absolutely will not.

 

We have AAS and Phonics Road and we also do OPG. I recently purchased SWR used and plan to integrate the enrichments from the Wise Guide into what we are already doing with Phonics Road and am going to use the learning log instead of the photo copy paper/binder method from PR. I have to be honest and say that I really have fallen in love with SWR after reading through all of the materials. Granted, PR is very similar but I feel blinded with PR because I can't read through it all to see the what/where/how of the program. I just have to keep on going through it to see how it pans out. Having said that, I probably wouldn't understand/love SWR if I were not learning the methods from the PR DVDs. One of the reasons I wanted to read the SWR materials was to get an idea of where PR was going.

 

My son really enjoys AAS but I'm not sure that it is deep enough and I will most likely let it go after book 1. Neither of us really like OPG, but we are sticking with it right now either until we finish it or I feel comfortable with everything else we have going on to let it go.

 

I kept feeling like he should be further along by now so it is helpful to read that with a full phonics approach it may take longer, but the end results will be worth it.

 

Slow and steady. :) :auto:

[Lovedtodeath]

Thank you for this thread. I was wondering if we should work on the sight words and now I know that we absolutely will not.

 

We have AAS and Phonics Road and we also do OPG. I recently purchased SWR used and plan to integrate the enrichments from the Wise Guide into what we are already doing with Phonics Road and am going to use the learning log instead of the photo copy paper/binder method from PR. I have to be honest and say that I really have fallen in love with SWR after reading through all of the materials. Granted, PR is very similar but I feel blinded with PR because I can't read through it all to see the what/where/how of the program. I just have to keep on going through it to see how it pans out. Having said that, I probably wouldn't understand/love SWR if I were not learning the methods from the PR DVDs. One of the reasons I wanted to read the SWR materials was to get an idea of where PR was going.

 

My son really enjoys AAS but I'm not sure that it is deep enough and I will most likely let it go after book 1. Neither of us really like OPG, but we are sticking with it right now either until we finish it or I feel comfortable with everything else we have going on to let it go.

 

I kept feeling like he should be further along by now so it is helpful to read that with a full phonics approach it may take longer, but the end results will be worth it.

 

Slow and steady. :) :auto:

Well, you will be able to tell us quite a bit! You really may feel that AAS is enough after level 2 or 3. Level 1 really isn't giving you a full view of the program.