FABULOUS anti-patriarchy article by Mary Pride!

[mommaduck]

Ummm, so what (to the bolded.) She had accountability to God the whole time.

 

I'll just have to let this go as I am too emotionally involved, but I am so glad I left that part of my life behind - the part where people think this is an acceptable way to hold others "accountable."

As most of these conventions are held by conservative to fundamentalist evangelicals, they like to fence the activities they hold. It's in a sense a "private" event and controlled on who and what kind of people are permitted to be represented.

 

The Orthodox have started having their own convention, but it's isolated to one place in the country and expensive to attend :( I really wish there were conventions that were truly open to all and represent all (Atheist, Agnostic, Pagan, Heathen, Catholic, Orthodox, Jewish, Muslim, Evangelical, Fundamentalist, purely Secular, etc, etc...please forgive if I left anyone out and notice everyone got a capital letter ;) ). I'm sure though that there would be an outrage and those that would issue a boycott :glare:

 

Honestly, I've never gone to a convention. They are either too pricey, didn't permit strollers, didn't permit children, and/or too far away.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The convention I went to is run by our state homeschool organization. It is (as stated on their website) "nonpartisan and nonsectarian".

[mommaduck]

The convention I went to is run by our state homeschool organization. It is (as stated on their website) "nonpartisan and nonsectarian".

Yeah, supposedly all the other ones I've seen are also. But guess who the speakers are. I've never seen anyone other than a fundamentalist or evangelical listed.

[Donna A.]

Ummm, so what (to the bolded.) She had accountability to God the whole time.

 

Matthew 18. And as believers in the Body of Christ, we have accountability to one another, as well. That's biblical. For the Christian, this should be understood.

 

I'll just have to let this go as I am too emotionally involved, but I am so glad I left that part of my life behind - the part where people think this is an acceptable way to hold others "accountable."

 

I didn't say that I believe all the people involved did everything right, or that I agree with all they did. Trust me, I've had my OWN bad experiences with Christians in the past... but that didn't drive me away from the One who saved me (as some have implied it did to Cheryl Lindsey), or from finding a church family that DOES act biblically. I was just pointing out that the victim in this particular instance wasn't entirely innocent herself (as a Christian, if in fact she was one).

 

I only jumped into the conversation because I had to respond to the implication that it was bad Christians who drove Cheryl Lindsey over to the liberal side. I don't believe it did. Yes, the wrong actions of some Christians can cause people unnecessary problems. It's happened to me, too.... I've been the victim of "bad Christians". But I get tired of "bad Christians" being blamed for everything that's wrong in the world, and for one's own individual sins.

 

Now that I've said that (more than once, I think), I'm going to go back to lurking. :seeya:

[Donna A.]

As most of these conventions are held by conservative to fundamentalist evangelicals, they like to fence the activities they hold. It's in a sense a "private" event and controlled on who and what kind of people are permitted to be represented.

 

 

I'm a conservative evangelical Christian, too, and I was a little put out at our convention last April. Both the number of booths and the seminars held were more lifestyle focused than curriculum or teaching focused. I went there to see curriculum, but there was very little to see. I'm fine with our lifestyle the way it is, tyvm.

[mommaduck]

I'm a conservative evangelical Christian, too, and I was a little put out at our convention last April. Both the number of booths and the seminars held were more lifestyle focused than curriculum or teaching focused. I went there to see curriculum, but there was very little to see. I'm fine with our lifestyle the way it is, tyvm.

I should have stated "conservative to fundamentalist evangelicals that support a particular style or type of living". You are correct, there are MANY of those that don't fit their views as well. It's just so narrowed that it's not really promoting homeschooling, but promoting particular groups of thought and leaving everyone else hanging. I've found the same with co-ops. There was one area I lived in where the only co-op and support group was a "sign our agreement" conservative evangelical group (I fell into the category, so no problem for me personally). It left the few others (one person that I know of was LDS) hanging with no area support for homeschooling.

[Laura Corin]

I think her point was, that for those of us who never heard of this whole thing before this thread, that makes for some pretty horrible reading. To think that a group of Christians would get together and deliberately ruin someone's life over business is quite upsetting.

 

Laura

[cathmom]

I finally finished reading that link The Truth About Cheryl. That was "vomitrocious."

 

Especially this:

Boutot told Cheryl that if she didn't comply with his proofs - and if she was truly a Christian - he expected her untimely death, and that if she did not pass away in that fashion, it would indicate she is not a true believer, and she would be turned over to Satan. /QUOTE]

 

Sounds like the Salem Witch Trials all over again.

 

And the role of the Internet in this cannot be denied. I can see why previous posters said they do not have respect for Mary Pride.

[mommaduck]

I finally finished reading that link The Truth About Cheryl. That was "vomitrocious."

 

Especially this:

Boutot told Cheryl that if she didn't comply with his proofs - and if she was truly a Christian - he expected her untimely death, and that if she did not pass away in that fashion, it would indicate she is not a true believer, and she would be turned over to Satan.[/QUOTE]

 

Sounds like the Salem Witch Trials all over again.

 

And the role of the Internet in this cannot be denied. I can see why previous posters said they do not have respect for Mary Pride.

 

As I was reading the part you bolded, I was thinking the same exact thing...then scrolled down and saw that you said it!

[Penelope]

Matthew 18. And as believers in the Body of Christ, we have accountability to one another, as well. That's biblical. For the Christian, this should be understood.

 

 

 

 

Based on the articles linked, I have to say that calling what these people did, living out Matthew 18, is ludicrous.

 

According to the testimonies, they did not deal with her directly. Instead they conspired with her former pastor behind her back, spied on her, and tried to bring her down.

 

I don't want others to get a false idea of what the Bible says, or what Christians understand to be true.

[Heatherwith4]

I finally finished reading that link The Truth About Cheryl. That was "vomitrocious."

 

Especially this:

 

As I was reading the part you bolded, I was thinking the same exact thing...then scrolled down and saw that you said it!

 

Yes, I thought about the Salem Witch Trials, too! I lost a lot of respect for many people after reading those articles. The whole situation makes Christians and home schoolers look bad. It's just about beyond words.

[Joanne]

I was just pointing out that the victim in this particular instance wasn't entirely innocent herself (as a Christian, if in fact she was one).

 

Certainly Cheryl was a person making mistakes and being human. She was also a human that was hurting from atrocities within the conservative church and suffering under spiritual abuse.

 

The fact that she had an affair does not in any way justify what was done to her, by whom and how.

 

That's just another way of saying "she deserved it".

[Donna A.]

Based on the articles linked, I have to say that calling what these people did, living out Matthew 18, is ludicrous.

 

According to the testimonies, they did not deal with her directly. Instead they conspired with her former pastor behind her back, spied on her, and tried to bring her down.

 

I don't want others to get a false idea of what the Bible says, or what Christians understand to be true.

 

I didn't say that what these people did was living out Matt. 18. I was responding to Renee's comment about being accountable to God and implying that that was "enough".... that she (or we, for that matter) have/had no responsibility to be accountable to anyone in human form.

 

Consider this: The idea of being accountable to God being "enough" is what caused this whole mess in the first place. Neither Cheryl nor Harris nor Pride nor Welch nor Cheryl's pastor nor any other number of other people seemed to be accountable to anyone but themselves. Therefore, it seems to me that every single person involved was in the wrong.

 

And isn't that how these "movements" get started in the first place? "I'm not accountable to anyone but God.... therefore I can interpret Scripture the way *I* want.... and therefore start whatever movement I want...."

 

Oh, what a tangled web we weave! :(

 

And yes, I agree with the likeness to the Salem Witch Trials. The whole thing was just handled horribly, and I doubt that ANY of it glorified Christ. :sad:

[Donna A.]

Certainly Cheryl was a person making mistakes and being human. She was also a human that was hurting from atrocities within the conservative church and suffering under spiritual abuse.

 

 

She had left the church on at least two separate occasions prior to the whole business/homeschool conference fiasco in 1994 and beyond. The atrocities within the conservative church may have (and did) hurt her; but her mistakes weren't entirely caused by that.

[Joanne]

She had left the church on at least two separate occasions prior to the whole business/homeschool conference fiasco in 1994 and beyond. The atrocities within the conservative church may have (and did) hurt her; but her mistakes weren't entirely caused by that.

 

I'm can't support juxtaposing her mistakes with what they did to her. I do not agree with what that implies.

[MomsintheGarden]

Wow, I had forgotten all about the Gentle Spirit debaucle. I still wish I had.

 

Also it makes me feel really old to have heard it the first time!

 

GardenMom

[SapphireStitch]

Wow, I had forgotten all about the Gentle Spirit debaucle. I still wish I had.

 

Also it makes me feel really old to have heard it the first time!

 

GardenMom

 

:iagree:

[NCMom]

Wow, I had forgotten all about the Gentle Spirit debaucle. I still wish I had.

 

Also it makes me feel really old to have heard it the first time!

 

GardenMom

 

LOL

 

And I am very, very sorry for mentioning it. The point was however, not to discuss what Cheryl did wrong. Sure she did a lot of wrong stuff, but in no way did any of those "homeschool leaders" involved have any justification for what they did.

 

This whole thing started a real division between hs'ers in my area and it affected online groups too. It was definitely a boost to the us vs them mentality and patriarchy was all up in there. There was an element of - let's discipline this woman because she has no husband to do it. And let's just ignore biblical principles AND make money while doing it, too. Grrr. It was/is infuriating.

 

I do wish I had my old hard drive from back in the AOL days; the stuff on there would curl a person's hair.

 

Nothing like a trip down home-school-scandal memory lane. lol

 

Georgia

[Renee in NC]

I didn't say that what these people did was living out Matt. 18. I was responding to Renee's comment about being accountable to God and implying that that was "enough".... that she (or we, for that matter) have/had no responsibility to be accountable to anyone in human form.

 

Consider this: The idea of being accountable to God being "enough" is what caused this whole mess in the first place. Neither Cheryl nor Harris nor Pride nor Welch nor Cheryl's pastor nor any other number of other people seemed to be accountable to anyone but themselves. Therefore, it seems to me that every single person involved was in the wrong.

 

And isn't that how these "movements" get started in the first place? "I'm not accountable to anyone but God.... therefore I can interpret Scripture the way *I* want.... and therefore start whatever movement I want...."

 

Oh, what a tangled web we weave! :(

 

And yes, I agree with the likeness to the Salem Witch Trials. The whole thing was just handled horribly, and I doubt that ANY of it glorified Christ. :sad:

 

:lol::lol: You will never catch me saying the bolded, considering I am Catholic and all. My point was that (a) it made no difference that she had no pastor or husband in authority over her at the time, and (b) that the people involved had *no* authority over her life or what she did.

 

I don't know what made her abandon Christ (if she did) - my comment was only directed specifically at your comment about "authority."

Edited August 29, 2010 by Renee in FL

[CLHCO]

My turn to be horrified. What does one individual's bad behavior have to do with what Jesus did for me?

That guy was (is) a nut, the church was goofy and I think my bil and sil are kinda out there too, but...I don't think all charismatics are nuts, nor do I think speaking in tongues is not a real gift~I just don't have it.

Likewise, I don't doubt there are people, churches who take an unbiblical view of the father's role in the home. Some legalists in a particular movement does not define the whole movement.

I'm sorry for people who get caught up in legalism. That's something that God has protected me from up to this point (thank you, Lord!)

 

:iagree:

 

Good description.