Outraged Moms, Trashy Daughters

[Hockey Mom]

There are many men who are lazy, just-there-for-the-paycheck employees, too. As I said in a previous post, my husband works with them everyday. Oh, and they whine and gossip, too. Do they ever! :001_rolleyes:

I agree. And like I said in my other post, it seems to be increasing over the past decade. And it's the younger men (30 and under) who seem to be the culprits.

[Mejane]

It just occurred to me that I have never had a male boss in all of my years working. I started working when I was 15.

 

 

 

I had a few, and they hit on me. I guess I could extrapolate that to say all male bosses are sexual deviants who will try to take advantage of young women in their employ. See the problem with painting everyone with the same brush?

 

(I'm not saying you do, just using your quote for illustration. :001_smile:)

[Impish]

Asta, don't faint or anything, but I agree with you completely.

 

My last job I worked almost exclusively with women, with an odd guy for a shift or 2 every now and then.

 

It was a snake pit. Gossip, nasty rumours...every shift was trying to stay out of several ongoing wars, and trying to keep the knife out of your back.

 

Give me a shift of guys to work with any day! I loved it when we had a guy LPN or fellow NA. You could work seamlessly with them, chat about whatever, and not worry about undercurrents of nastiness or fear that what was said would be twisted out of reality. Plus, they worked. Never had a problem of a guy standing around gabbing and ignoring call bells or watching me work and not getting on with what needs doing.

 

New staff was great to work with too...it seemed the 'familiarity breeds contempt' was in full swing, and the longer you were there, the more effort was put into trying to get you on one side or another.

 

Ime, men just aren't as catty and vicious as women are.

 

Of course, I'm not saying my experience is true for all workplaces or all women, just true of my experiences.

 

The place I worked at until maternity leave with Tazzie was the same thing. The women seemed to thrive on their power struggles and infighting. One woman got angry b/c someone else was getting married, and she wasn't even engaged. Seriously. She was better looking than the other woman, so SHE should be getting married first. I'm not assuming anything, she told me that. She quit talking to me when my pregnancy became apparent...again, it should have been HER. When I brought Tazzie into the office on the way home from the hospital, she wouldn't even look at him, turned on her heel and slammed her office door.

 

She was nuts, imo, but the office was riddled with that kind of behaviour from a LOT of women. I hadn't been there 2 days when I was being warned not to trust certain ppl...then the 'certain ppl' came by, warning me about the others! Talk about a cesspool of negativity!

[Murphy101]

I agree. And like I said in my other post, it seems to be increasing over the past decade. And it's the younger men (30 and under) who seem to be the culprits.

 

I don't think it's all men or all women. But there's starting to be a stereotype for a reason too.

 

My dh says it's really hard to keep that work ethic going when morale is low because he comes in early and stays late and gets vacation time denied while the women "have to" come in late and leave early and take time off all the time. They say it's because they are moms. (um hello? He is a father.) They says it's because they are PMSing (yes women actually say that). They say they need some me time.

 

Whatever. All I know is I can bet money a man would never get away with saying such stuff and expect to keep his job, much less get a raise. But without exception those same women do.

 

I know all women aren't like that. My dh knows it too and is darn near on cloud 9 when he gets to work with women like that. But they aren't the common variety.

 

If men see this enough, I think it reasonable that the result would be that they would start to change their work habits.

[i.love.lucy]

I didn't think that article had anything to do with the divide between working moms and SAHMs. I think it had more to do with media and what it's done to the feminist movement.

 

Media is a big, big deal. I am unsure how to stop it's influence without going into the bubble completely. I don't think I want us to do that. So I allow some things and keep the dialog open. Unfortunately I have a daughter that is very attracted to what I think she shouldn't be: skimpy outfits, mega-high heels, too much make-up. To her this is "pretty". She's beyond those sweet old days when I could say a Bratz doll was ugly and she'd agree. Now she looks at images of women portrayed that way and sees "glamorous". And because she doesn't know yet what s3x is, it's very hard for me to tell her exactly why I don't want her to wind up looking like that. In a world of Miley and Demi and Selena going over the top at 16, even if I don't allow her to see those girls she knows about them and is drawn to them. I am having a terribly hard time getting her to see the beauty in what I deem more pure and modest.

 

A pp mentioned what a shame it is that Snookie is famous and "idolized" for her antics and the Duggar girls are laughed at. But both are at the extreme. Where are all the normal people. 10 year old girls that look like they are 10??? I don't think I know what 10 year olds look like any more. Most of my daughters old ps friends have read the Twilight books and seen the movies, watch all this reality TV, and wear wildly inappropriate clothes to school. They are the norm.

 

recalling being called upon to write essays in school about female role models. Coming up with someone who wasn’t famous primarily for her looks or style was next to impossible, she says: “It’s either Oprah or my mom. Not that my mom isn’t great. She is. But there really isn’t anyone else to choose from.â€

But I don't agree with this either. I think we have women that are excellent role models in politics and on television, authors, poets, chefs, educators, etc. They are just not the ones my 10yo wants to idolize.:glare:

[Impish]

I think the reason SAHM/working mom comes up when talking about feminism is because its one of the most glaring examples of attitudes. Instead of bringing women together under one banner, its created a huge gulf. When talking to our daughters, few parents suggest being a SAHM as a valid choice. We tell them about careers, college and university...

 

Diva has said that she wants to be married and be a SAHM. I've told her that that's a wonderful thing, but encouraged her to figure out what she wants to do until then...and something that she can use to support herself and her children if, God forbid, something happened to her dh. I pointed out that *I* sure as heck didn't plan on becoming disabled, and there's no guarantee that something won't happen to her spouse.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I am a staunch feminist and see it as a part of human rights. I believe any society that does not treat women well does not treat at least some of its men well IMHO:(.

I also firmly support a women's choice to be a stay at home mom or to be a career women or something in between:) I also hope to see our society more supportive of women and child rearing since it is part of the human condition. I believe that only a certain segment of the feminist movement frowned on SAHMs and this segment does not represent all feminism IMO. I am grateful to be a SAHM finally and hope to stay that way. I would encourage all women though to have back up education or training that they can fall back on when needed since life does not always go as planned:(. I think those who frown on an education for women since they believe in women being only SAHM are doing their daughters a disservice IMHO because as I said there is no guarantees in life.

 

My 2 cents:)

[Mejane]

Diva has said that she wants to be married and be a SAHM. I've told her that that's a wonderful thing, but encouraged her to figure out what she wants to do until then...and something that she can use to support herself and her children if, God forbid, something happened to her dh.

 

 

I also encourage my daughter to stay home with her kids if she has them. There is always time for a career, but kids are only young once. Wouldn't the radical fems just skewer me for that one? :D

[Audrey]

I had a few, and they hit on me. I guess I could extrapolate that to say all male bosses are sexual deviants who will try to take advantage of young women in their employ. See the problem with painting everyone with the same brush?

 

(I'm not saying you do, just using your quote for illustration. :001_smile:)

 

 

I've worked in areas where I was the only woman, and in areas where there were no men. I believe that the worst situations were where the people were in jobs that they felt were either dead-end, or relatively meaningless to them. In other words, they had little job satisfaction, so they were rotten to everyone.

 

Right now, I work in a department that has about 30 people, maybe 4-5 of which are men. It is the loveliest bunch of people I have ever worked with in my life. The atmosphere is open to all input. People are valued for their unique contributions. The opportunities are wide open to move up or expand your role in the department.

 

However, I once worked in a library with all female staff and administration. It was cat-fight city all the time, but it was obviously because there was simply no room to move up. Everyone was pretty much stuck doing what they were doing ad infinitum. It was a crowded little box of a place, too, with no real windows. Certainly not conducive to good attitudes.

 

Yet, the worst situation in which I ever worked was with men, not women. I worked in a publicity company and was one of 3 women in the place -- probably 50 or so men. My boss routinely used sexist put downs to "motivate the ladies." He would say things like "you don't have it ready yet? What's the matter? Those t*ts weighing you down?" When I applied for a higher position that was available, he and another man interviewed me. I was told I should prove I was right for the job. I tried to explain my skills and was interrupted to be told, "well, baby that's not what I mean. This d*ck doesn't suck itself, ya know."

 

I'll take the catty women times 10 over that crap anyday.

[Mejane]

Yet, the worst situation in which I ever worked was with men, not women. I worked in a publicity company and was one of 3 women in the place -- probably 50 or so men. My boss routinely used sexist put downs to "motivate the ladies." He would say things like "you don't have it ready yet? What's the matter? Those t*ts weighing you down?" When I applied for a higher position that was available, he and another man interviewed me. I was told I should prove I was right for the job. I tried to explain my skills and was interrupted to be told, "well, baby that's not what I mean. This d*ck doesn't suck itself, ya know."

 

 

 

I'd say "Unbelievable!", but unfortunately it isn't. :glare:

[Jenny in GA]

 

If a man told his boss that he had to stay home with a sick child or take time off to take the child to doctors rather than make an important deadline' date=' I wonder if he would find this ceiling too?

 

Would a man feel comfortable asking his coworkers to cover for him (complete his work) so he could attend to the needs of his children?

 

I've had friends who ask ME to watch/pick up their kids so they can stay late at work. They don't ask their husbands because they don't want to put their husbands' jobs at risk by having them leave early to get the kids.

[/quote']

 

 

This reminds me of something interesting I heard years ago from two different mothers who had FT jobs.

 

They said (pretty adamently) that if they (the mothers) called in sick to take care of a sick child, or left early to go to a kid's function or something, etc, co-workers might act annoyed and put out to have to cover for them, maybe act like the woman was being unprofessional, etc.

 

But ... if a man at their workplace did any of those things, the co-workers would say things like, "Wow, you are such a great dad!" and would be more than happy to pick up the slack.

 

Jenny

[LaissezFaire]

I find it interesting that in the height of the feminist movement women were refusing to wear bras and now girls are going out in nothing BUT a bra.

[Rosie_0801]

I think the reason SAHM/working mom comes up when talking about feminism is because its one of the most glaring examples of attitudes. Instead of bringing women together under one banner, its created a huge gulf. When talking to our daughters, few parents suggest being a SAHM as a valid choice. We tell them about careers, college and university...

 

Firstly that's second wave feminism and what the media did with it. Not feminism as it has been and will always be; and I think some of the hurt caused by second wave feminism will be healed as people start to differentiate between them and the other "waves." (Yes I have a beef about this, as if you didn't notice ;) )

 

As to the second, I can think of two reasons for that. One, perhaps no one thinks it needs to be said because of course a person can have babies. Two, perhaps parents don't think it's appropriate to dwell on it, because that is an issue between their daughter and the husband (type person) she hasn't met yet. I guess it would be different in some religious circles, but in the secular world, "I intend to be a stay at home mum" would put the chaps off, even if later they decided it was a good idea. Thirdly, as you said, Impish, who says you're going to find someone you want to marry anyway, let alone find them quickly. In the meantime, you have to do something with yourself. Uni and careers are more enjoyable ways to spend your time than working in the local greengrocer waiting for Prince Charming. (For the record I met Prince Charming at uni while I was working in the greengrocer, heheh.)

Any thoughts on that?

 

(Hmm. I think I'll go ask dh's thoughts on that. But I'd better wait until he's had his coffee...)

 

Rosie

[asta]

One of my favorite lines to give to struggling moms is "the healthiest thing for a baby (child) is a healthy and happy mommy."

 

I think that, somewhere along the line, there began to be "lines in the sand" drawn as to who could do what, when, and it really started to fracture the relationships of women to one another. Perhaps this is how these "waves" of feminism came about.

 

I've done the:

 

working without child

working with child

stay at home mom with kid in public school

stay at home mom with homeschooled kid

stay at home mom who wants to send kid to boarding school and get drunk...

 

And at no time did I *not* do a hundred other things concurrently. I think this is true for most women. Every woman has to make choices, and I think that most women do indeed feel pangs of guilt, resentment, whatever due to the choices they have made. I say most because I've seen some women who have flat out told me to my face that they have absolutely no desire to be with their children, and are annoyed when they must be. :001_huh: But again, choices. Not one *I* would make, but perhaps they feel they are doing their societal / religious duty? (THAT is a whole other thread...)

 

So. Feminism. I think it is my right to strive for, and not be deliberately impeded from, my goals in life. And although I was once told "you can have it all, just not all at once," I've had to reconcile that with the reality of "I can have what is within my abilities and circumstances." And no amount of complaining is going to change the fact my brain short circuits, or that I'm not able to drive, or that I have a memory somewhat like Drew Barrymore from 50 first dates. But that's ok. I don't *have* to conquer the world; that can be someone else's job.

 

 

asta