Changes for AP down the road

[OLG]

Today's Inside Higher Ed article speaks to areas where College Board is looking at changing AP courses and tests. (It's always about revenue say this cynical mom!)

 

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/07/19/ap

[Tammyla]

Very interesting.

[angela in ohio]

Another issue Packer emphasized was the dynamic between breadth and depth in high school AP courses. Asked a series of questions via clicker devices, more than half of the attendees said they agree or strongly agree that AP courses require teachers to sacrifice depth to breadth to cover all the content before the exam. Packer sees this as a problematic area, and hopes to “enhance AP’s position as the capstone high school experience by articulating standards that merge updated college level content with 21st-century skills.â€

 

“We can produce a stronger outcome in higher education than AP currently produces if we can structure AP courses around these skills that really are important in higher education,†he said.

 

The general idea, supported by much of the audience, was to move the AP curriculum away from learning facts and in the direction of learning themes. “What colleges really want and need is for students to come in and identify historical constructs or write an effective essay,†Packer said. “But if you’re spending all your time memorizing content, you’re not going to develop those fundamental skills.â€

 

I found this an interesting change in focus.

 

This should make things interesting for the next few years:

 

Packer unveiled a schedule for redesigning most AP courses within the next four years to ensure that students can develop the skills necessary to truly understand the subject and to gain all the knowledge that they would in a freshman course. New French, German and world history courses will be introduced at the beginning of the 2011 school year; biology, U.S. history, Spanish literature, and European history in 2012; and chemistry, physics 1, physics 2, and Spanish language in 2013. Art history, English language, and English literature are also slated for changes within the next few years to include more measurements of student writing and revision throughout the school year.

[Teachin'Mine]

Sounded like a bunch of doublespeak to me. :001_huh:

 

Maybe they'll be wrapping it in a prettier package so more universities accept the credit, while at the same time giving the courses more depth, while at the same time fitting it within high school teachers' schedules, while at the same time matching it to the students' skills. :lol:

[Laurie4b]

Today's Inside Higher Ed article speaks to areas where College Board is looking at changing AP courses and tests. (It's always about revenue say this cynical mom!)

 

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/07/19/ap

 

I'm strongly inclined to agree about revenue.

[Kathie in VA]

Another issue Packer emphasized was the dynamic between breadth and depth in high school AP courses. Asked a series of questions via clicker devices, more than half of the attendees said they agree or strongly agree that AP courses require teachers to sacrifice depth to breadth to cover all the content before the exam. Packer sees this as a problematic area, and hopes to “enhance AP’s position as the capstone high school experience by articulating standards that merge updated college level content with 21st-century skills.â€

 

.....

 

The general idea, supported by much of the audience, was to move the AP curriculum away from learning facts and in the direction of learning themes. “What colleges really want and need is for students to come in and identify historical constructs or write an effective essay,†Packer said. “But if you’re spending all your time memorizing content, you’re not going to develop those fundamental skills.â€

 

 

 

This is interesting. I see two points off the bat here that bother me. First are these so called "21st-century skills". Seems like they feel that it is no longer necessary to really know what you are talking about so long as you get the big picture. I disagree, just because we can 'look up the details' doesn't mean we should always leave the details to be checked later or by someone else.

 

My second problem lies in these 'effective essays'. How effective an essay can it be if the writer only gets the general idea or the big picture? I'll agree that learning how to write well is important for all, imo. However, this will go farther when you really understand your writing topic.

 

I wonder if this is some kind of 'dumming down' of the AP classes/tests?

 

:001_huh:

[OLG]

I wonder if this is some kind of 'dumming down' of the AP classes/tests?

 

:001_huh:

 

I had the same thought.....

 

Mary

[Ailaena]

I know that for the AP French Language test, it will now become Language and Culture.

 

Whereas now the test is equivalent to a 3rd year college course, it will be more in line with the "new way" to teach K-12 languages and encompass more of a cultural appreciation sort of thing. That was clear, right?:lol: I get the feeling there will be general art and history questions, and the essay questions will be graded more according to how culturally appropriate your answer is, and less on how perfect your grammar is.

 

What this means to me is that we now have to DEFINITELY squeeze in AP French this year while I can get used test prep materials for less $$.

 

 

I wish we would have waited to do AP World History for another couple of years, though because it sounds MUCH easier to study for!

 

...the limited number of key concepts [in the new version] makes teaching each historical period — whose duration varies from one century to many — manageable. The three to four key concepts per period define what is most essential to know about each period based upon the most current historical research in world history. By framing historical processes and developments beyond a perceived list of facts, events and dates, the key concepts help teachers and students understand, organize and prioritize historical developments within each period.

At some point back in early October, I gave up on trying to figure out what the test wanted and we just went through World History, going deeper where she wanted to, making sure we covered most everything, and then spending April learning what the test wanted. Worked out for us, but probably not so much for a HS teacher with one, lone hour 4 days/wk with kids who would rather be somewhere else.

 

Do I think it's a good thing? Not at all, it makes me quite sad, but what can I do about it? So yes, I think these changes are ALL ABOUT revenue and dumbing down. The pass rate on these test are something like by50-60%, and what better way to make the pass rate higher than by making them easier!

[Teachin'Mine]

I agree that it's about revenue. Right now, some of the universities aren't accepting advanced placement credits. So, some students don't bother taking the tests which affects their bottom line. So how to get more universities to accept them? Say that they're of higher quality classes and equal to college level classes. But saying they're harder won't get students to want to take the classes, so adjust the classes to their level - dumb down - and talk about how the new skills are being incorporated.

 

What I think universities want is for students to take the classes on their campus. That means more revenue for them. It also puts all students on equal footing and lets the school know what they were actually taught in the class. If the texts, classes and tests are made harder, I think even fewer students will be receiving "passing" grades, and fewer will attempt them to begin with. So even though that's what it sounds like they're proposing to do, I don't think that's what will happen.

 

Wow - that came out clear as mud. :lol:

[asta]

College Board, Inc. is the mafia of the education world. Everything they do is about money.

 

 

a

[Laurie4b]

I agree that it's about revenue. Right now' date=' some of the universities aren't accepting advanced placement credits. So, some students don't bother taking the tests which affects their bottom line. So how to get more universities to accept them? Say that they're of higher quality classes and equal to college level classes. But saying they're harder won't get students to want to take the classes, so adjust the classes to their level - dumb down - and talk about how the new skills are being incorporated.

 

What I think universities want is for students to take the classes on their campus. That means more revenue for them. It also puts all students on equal footing and lets the school know what they were actually taught in the class. If the texts, classes and tests are made harder, I think even fewer students will be receiving "passing" grades, and fewer will attempt them to begin with. So even though that's what it sounds like they're proposing to do, I don't think that's what will happen.

 

Wow - that came out clear as mud. :lol:[/quote']

 

I think that's a good point--not accepting AP credits is financially to the benefit of colleges just as much as getting kids to take more AP classes (and getting all those teachers to take more seminars) is to the Collegeboard's financial advantage. I really detest the whole game.

[distancia]

I think that's a good point--not accepting AP credits is financially to the benefit of colleges just as much as getting kids to take more AP classes (and getting all those teachers to take more seminars) is to the Collegeboard's financial advantage. I really detest the whole game.

 

Agreed. Actually one of the employees at our local CC even told me "if there were more students taking AP and CLEP exams we would lose some instructors around here."

 

Well,the AP exams may change and I think the colleges and universities will just work around those changes and keep their admissions and credit granting policies the same.

 

Case in point: One month ago my D took the Freshman Comp English CLEP (College Board, similar to AP) exam. It was 90 minutes long and consisted of 45 multiple choice questions and 1 essay. College Board suggested 6 college credit hours (2 semester class credits) for the exam. In our state university system, though, she receives credit for only 3 hours (1 semester credit).

 

Now, this month (July) the CLEP exam changed to include 2 essays of 70 minutes and 50 multiple choice questions, for a total exam of two hours. College Board is again suggesting that a passing grade and approved essay earn 6 credit hours, a full year of English credit. Again our state university system has said "no" and is crediting for only for 3 hours.

 

So basically, it's a complete wash, the same as it was before--no loss, no gain. The College Board did raise the exam fee $5 to cover the cost of reviewing the additional exam.

Edited July 19, 2010 by distancia

[Photo Ninja]

It is all a game. What benefit can you get, what do you have to do to get it?

 

The College Board wants to stay in business, so it needs to keep AP tests looking beneficial to students, high schools and colleges.

 

Colleges get more money if they require students to take courses there and don't give credit for AP tests. Yes, some do give credit, but most we have looked at don't. They don't give credit, but do allow students to begin with upper level classes, which may or may not actually help the student. But the student still has to take the same number of credits because the AP tests don't result in credits. The college wins because it gets the money, and it also has some assurance that the student is prepared because he did take an AP class and tested well (as long as we assume that an AP class is higher level work with higher expectations, which while not always, is often true).

 

High schools want good statistics they can advertise. If a high percentage of their students take AP classes, then the school must be high quality, right? (Yeah, I know...but this is what happens around here.) So the school offers a lot of AP classes and pushes students to take them. The classes end up with a number of students who are not prepared for an AP level course, so the instructor has to dumb down the material to match the less prepared students. Now those students can't do well on the AP test because they are not academically ready to be in the class, and the students who want to do well can't get the level of instruction they need. But a high percentage of students take AP classes, and the school looks really good on paper.

 

Students want an edge so they look better to college admissions officers. Taking AP classes and testing well can help them be more competitive when applying to colleges. If they had good AP classes, they did get a better than average education, which is good for them whether or not they get college credit. They may have been challenged instead of bored in class. If AP classes help them get admitted to the college of their choice, then they get that benefit. If they want college credit, they may be out of luck. It all depends on what their goal is.

 

After looking into it, my dc all decided that they didn't want to go the AP route because they didn't like everything being based on one test, and they wanted to get college credit for their effort. They decided it was better for them to take community college courses while in high school. This way they always knew what their grade was (instead of the unknown one-time test) and could get credit as long as they took the courses that were guaranteed to transfer to state and private colleges. Plus they got high school credit at the same time - a year of high school credit for each semester cc course. To them, it was a better investment with more of a guaranteed benefit. But high schools don't like this option because they don't want to lose the top students to cc classes instead of AP classes. They tend to refuse to give permission for ps students to take cc classes. The College Board doesn't like it because students are not paying to take the tests. The cc doesn't seem to care and has welcomed concurrent enrollment students.

 

So it all comes down to what the student has to do to get the benefit he is looking for, and what the school has to do to offer the AP classes and convince students to take them, and what the College Board needs to do to satisfy students, high schools and colleges and convince them that the AP classes are the best option.

 

I am not surprised that the College Board is going to change the tests and thus the course content.

[distancia]

High schools want good statistics they can advertise. If a high percentage of their students take AP classes, then the school must be high quality, right?

 

So the school offers a lot of AP classes and pushes students to take them. The classes end up with a number of students who are not prepared for an AP level course, so the instructor has to dumb down the material to match the less prepared students.

 

This is SO true. The head of guidance counseling in XXXXX county here in Florida is my closest friend, and she tells me that the schools in her county push unqualified students--especially those in Title 1 schools--to take AP classes which they have no business taking. The instructors have to curve the grades and the end result is students coming out with A averages, yet they can't read above a 5th grade level, if that.

 

Who is the loser in that scenario? Not the College Board, not the schools (who receive additional funding). It's the students.

[distancia]

After looking into it, my dc all decided that they didn't want to go the AP route because they didn't like everything being based on one test, and they wanted to get college credit for their effort. They decided it was better for them to take community college courses while in high school. This way they always knew what their grade was (instead of the unknown one-time test) and could get credit as long as they took the courses that were guaranteed to transfer to state and private colleges. Plus they got high school credit at the same time - a year of high school credit for each semester cc course. To them, it was a better investment with more of a guaranteed benefit.

 

The same with my daughter. Many colleges will NOT accept AP credits, nor will they accept dual enrollment/concurrent enrollment credits earned by a student in a high school classroom (in our ps system the college classes are taught in the high schools by high school teachers!) but the colleges WILL accept credits earned by high school students if they are earned on the college campus.

 

Sorry for the 2 posts in a row, I was trying to combine :(

[Luckymama]

High schools want good statistics they can advertise. If a high percentage of their students take AP classes, then the school must be high quality, right? (Yeah, I know...but this is what happens around here.) So the school offers a lot of AP classes and pushes students to take them. The classes end up with a number of students who are not prepared for an AP level course, so the instructor has to dumb down the material to match the less prepared students. Now those students can't do well on the AP test because they are not academically ready to be in the class, and the students who want to do well can't get the level of instruction they need. But a high percentage of students take AP classes, and the school looks really good on paper.

QUOTE]

 

I don't doubt this is true at many schools. But at other schools, the opposite situation is true. My son attends an academically rigourous private high school. Only the boys who are truly qualified, based on prerequisite courses, writing ability, and ability to handle a heavy reading load, are allowed to take AP courses.

 

The school advertises its high 4/5 rate instead of a high % rate. Ds's AP Calc teacher has had only one student receive a 4, all others 5s, in her decade of teaching the course.

 

We are playing the AP game---the boy took 4 APs junior year and will have 6 this year. He is at the top of his class and is finally being challenged. Ds is looking at schools that accept AP courses for credit instead of just placement. He'd like to get through college in 3 years and do a masters in the 4th year, which is possible at schools that will accept his 5/5/5/4 (for 24 credits at U of DE, for example) and whatever he earns his senior year (potentially 25 credits at U of DE).