Anyone read "Plan B: Skip College" in the NYT today?

[Mejane]

...

 

The engineer said, "Why can't these guys play at night?"

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

 

What is the difference between Mechanical Engineers and Civil Engineers?

Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

:lol::lol::lol:

 

Oh, you are in trouble... :D

[Rosie_0801]

I think society has "university-ized" a huge number of degrees that don't really belong there

 

 

:iagree: Hubby and I were just talking about this the other week. Most computer related things should be in TAFE (much like your CC, I think.)

 

Rosie

[asta]

We're not raising children to think creatively and be drawn into their natural areas of interest and intelligence, but instead, we hang the fetid, evanescent carrot of wealth in front of them.

 

 

Love it.

 

 

a

[weaver_67579]

Any thoughts?

 

I read the article and some of the posts following the OP.

 

I agree that university is not right for everyone. I do not agree with the testing and virtually eliminating the ability of some people from attending university by some places in Europe. (My Mom was born and raised in Scotland) Some people really buckle down and work hard in college that didn't do so hot in high school.

 

Both DH and I have Bachelor's Degrees in agriculture. His in Ag Business and mine in Animal Bioscience. He runs a feed mill and I worked in a ag lab for 10 years. I loved my college experience and would not undo it if I could go back in time-even though I am not gainfully employed outside the home at this time. I would love all 3 of my kiddos to go to college and they would have a hard sell convincing me otherwise. Having a degree can open up doors and give opportunities that do not exist without one. We could like that or not-it is reality.

 

As for having types of jobs that don't require degrees.... That is the majority of my DH's family. Most of them in our generation are struggling financially. Both he and I were raised on farms. By far the most sucessful farmers We know have ag or business degrees. I have 2 BIL's that have their own businesses. Both are terrible with running a business (both are great at the crafts they do-carpentry and custom crop farmer). Both would have likely benefitted from business degrees or at least classes. Due to the specialized nature of their skills, neither is really able to find work much out of their specialties that would pay enough to support their families. Dh and I on the other hand, have a wider knowledge base than them and could likely look for work in a wider variety of fields that would be able to support us. I guess my point is that a degree can be useful in any field-even for someone wanting to be self-employed.

[spradlin02]

I agree that university is not right for everyone. I do not agree with the testing and virtually eliminating the ability of some people from attending university by some places in Europe. (My Mom was born and raised in Scotland) Some people really buckle down and work hard in college that didn't do so hot in high school.

 

Agreed.

 

Having a degree can open up doors and give opportunities that do not exist without one. We could like that or not-it is reality.

 

As for having types of jobs that don't require degrees.... That is the majority of my DH's family. Most of them in our generation are struggling financially.

 

But it's not a necessity. I dropped out after three years and never went back. I taught myself computer programming and have a well-paying job for a good company. The point is that it can open opportunities, but it doesn't always; and there are many other doors to open without a degree. But I also know a lot of college graduates who are struggling financially; they can't get jobs doing what they want because their debt is so high. I have way more incoming earning potential that my wife who has a Master's. That's hard for me to reconcile.

 

I guess my point is that a degree can be useful in any field-even for someone wanting to be self-employed.

But again, at what cost? Is the debt burden so high that the idea of getting loans for a business after college untenable? At what point does a college education reach the point of diminishing returns? Meaning that it's so ungodly expensive, that it's better to go another route. Can that money best be utilized in other capacities?

 

As we all know, a Bachelor's Degree has become a commodity. To truly gain experience and recognition in a field, a Master's has almost become a necessity.

[elegantlion]

A degree would be of little or no consequence to the self-employed. The knowledge however on how to do sales and run a business would be very useful. College is not the only place to get that knowledge and of course, some people are just born with a talent for things like that. (my father is that guy who could sell anything and make people glad they bought it from him)

 

:iagree: My dh is self-employed. A business degree would never replace the real world experience. Plus he still couldn't charge more, he can only charge what the market can bare.

[Renee in NC]

:iagree: My dh is self-employed. A business degree would never replace the real world experience. Plus he still couldn't charge more, he can only charge what the market can bare.

 

I bet your dh could really expand his business with the $100K+ that a private college education costs!

[creekland]

Clients don't ask for your degree. They only care about how good your work is. Instead of spending a bunch of money on years in school my dh started his company and learned form his mistakes. In the process he actually made money. That time was his Real-life education.

 

Clients don't, but for certain jobs like Civil Engineering (in which my hubby is self-employed) the State Licensing Board sure asked for his degree - and more (EIT, PE testing).

 

It all depends on what someone wants to do. There is no blanket answer. However, the correlation shows that people GENERALLY do better with more formal education. That said, there will always be those that dropped out of school by 8th grade that made a decent life for themselves. It all depends on the individual. Statistics apply to the group, not the individual. That said, we tend to eat more healthily because I believe the statistics that say doing so tends to lead to a healthier life. Even with that, there's no guarantee for the individual, but I prefer to head the direction the correlation odds lead.

 

I'd never let someone get 100K in debt to get a college degree, but scholarships and other things are out there for those who qualify.

[weaver_67579]

I bet your dh could really expand his business with the $100K+ that a private college education costs!

 

How about a state school? or even an associates from a business college-my DSIS is getting one of those now. Anyway, if everyone read my whole post-it would be noted that I mentioned a degree or at least some classes.

[cathmom]

http://www.philly.com/philly/education/92942669.html

 

I thought this recent article was interesting. Skipping college would be preferable than being ridiculously in debt and still no degree!

[Jane in NC]

http://www.philly.com/philly/education/92942669.html

 

I thought this recent article was interesting. Skipping college would be preferable than being ridiculously in debt and still no degree!

 

Related note: The PBS program Front Line examined for-profit colleges just a couple of weeks ago. The episode, entitled College, Inc., is available on-line in its entirety (here).

[creekland]

http://www.philly.com/philly/education/92942669.html

 

I thought this recent article was interesting. Skipping college would be preferable than being ridiculously in debt and still no degree!

 

I agree with you, but those aren't the only options...

 

That said, the parent company of this institution was here at the school I work at giving quite the presentation in our lower level English senior classes about a month ago. They championed some of their graduates, but never once mentioned costs involved or percentage of success stories to drop outs w/debt. Granted academic ability isn't so much a "need" with some of their majors/programs, but... I'd be VERY careful signing up with them with someone that isn't superbly talented and motivated in their field.

 

For what it's worth, I feel that way about some academic majors in traditional schools too.

[Jane in NC]

I'll step into this (gingerly). Here is the problem that I see: many students come to college ill-prepared and/or unsure of what they doing on campus. Some of these students will figure it all out in a year or two, develop an interest and all is well. For other students who are floundering, the social scene of college can consume them. Crash and burn with potential debt.

 

Consider a student who is really not prepared for college--academically or in terms of maturity. What would happen if that student took a gap year? Perhaps figure it all out, develop a passion and all will be well. But if that student does not? Does he live at home, play video games and wait for inspiration to find him?

 

College is not for everyone. But what in the world is an eighteen year old supposed to do in our culture if he does not attend college? There seem to be few tech or apprentice programs. I recently suggested to one of my friends that she ship her son off to work on an organic farm (like Joel Salatin's) for hands on experience. The boy wants to farm. Should he get a college degree or learn from the masters of the profession so to speak?

 

This is where I would like to see more individuals stepping up to the plate to assist the next generation. Let's give kids skills and perhaps options. Even for students who attend college, having some hands on skills remains a good idea. It bothers me to see many of the boys whom we know locally who are not attending college getting into trouble. Serious trouble. I am unsure if children in modern America can figure out where and how they fit on their own.

[creekland]

College is not for everyone. But what in the world is an eighteen year old supposed to do in our culture if he does not attend college? There seem to be few tech or apprentice programs. I recently suggested to one of my friends that she ship her son off to work on an organic farm (like Joel Salatin's) for hands on experience. The boy wants to farm. Should he get a college degree or learn from the masters of the profession so to speak?

 

 

 

I don't think you - or anyone - needs to really gingerly step in. I think most people realize there is no one answer to everyone's situation. the points you make are certainly valid.

 

Other things 18 year olds could do are join the military or go immediately into the workforce even at a no-skills job (fast food or otherwise) to get a sense of what they might want to do. Neither sitting at home playing video games nor going to college to perfect their drinking games are wise options.

 

My youngest - just finishing 8th grade now - currently is thinking he wants to be a foreign aid worker assisting with green farming techniques or other similar deal. If his thoughts don't change, then he'll be going to college double majoring in agriculture of some sort and Community/Economic/International Development. Sometimes the masters of the profession are involved in the college education and sometimes they aren't. My son has the academic talent where college makes sense. For others, apprenticing on a farm makes sense. My son wants to create, lead and do (maybe even research himself) with farming. Others want to USE what is developed. Neither is wrong. But each lends itself to a different path.

[Mom-ninja.]

My dh does not have a degree and does well....so far. He is ready to move up in his career, and he can't. He's been told by his bosses that he will not be considered for promotion because he does not have a degree. Now, here's the kicker. His boss has told dh that he is more than qualified experience wise to be promoted, but that his hands are tied because the upper management wants to see that degree on paper. So they gave the job (IT management) to another man who has a degree in, are you ready, Philosophy of Art. This guy has NO clue what he's doing. Dh basically cleans up after this guy, and tells him what needs to be done. Everyone knows that dh should have the job, but he won't get it because he doesn't have that stamp on his resume that says BS or BA. His boss has told him to go back to school and get a degree in anything even if it's Basket Weaving because all that matters are the initials of the Bachelors.

 

Dh has been looking for employment else where in the mean time, and it's the same story. No one will look at his resume once they notice the missing degree.

 

It's ridiculous that dh is qualified due to real life experience, but he's finding it does not matter.

[creekland]

Dh has been looking for employment else where in the mean time, and it's the same story. No one will look at his resume once they notice the missing degree.

 

It's ridiculous that dh is qualified due to real life experience, but he's finding it does not matter.

 

Most of us on here will agree with you that it's not right, but nonetheless, it is the system. Your/his choice appears to be get the degree, stay where he is, or start his own company where he sets the rules. IRL I know people in very similar situations (lots of experience, no degree, no degree needed to do the next job). All of them opted to get the degree. Protesting sounds nice, but it doesn't change opinions and the promotion meant better pay... worth the annoyance to them since nothing was realistically going to change without it.

 

AND... it's part of the reason I'm insisting my academically capable boys will be getting their degrees after high school. It's the system we live in. I suspect all three will use their degrees, but if not, they'll still have them. But none will have tons of debt.

[asta]

I think this is why there are so many of those "apply your real life experience towards a degree" programs have cropped up. There are quite a few accredited universities who will accept "life experience" for a significant number of credits.

 

 

a

[creekland]

I think this is why there are so many of those "apply your real life experience towards a degree" programs have cropped up. There are quite a few accredited universities who will accept "life experience" for a significant number of credits.

 

 

a

 

That's a great thing to remind people about! It works - and saves people from having to endure (and pay for) some classes.

[Mejane]

My dh does not have a degree and does well....so far. He is ready to move up in his career, and he can't. He's been told by his bosses that he will not be considered for promotion because he does not have a degree.

 

Therein lies the root of the problem: employers essentially discriminating against a clearly qualified person who doesn't have that blessed piece of paper. It's stupid, and it needs to change.

[spradlin02]

My dh does not have a degree and does well....so far. He is ready to move up in his career, and he can't. He's been told by his bosses that he will not be considered for promotion because he does not have a degree. Now, here's the kicker. His boss has told dh that he is more than qualified experience wise to be promoted, but that his hands are tied because the upper management wants to see that degree on paper. So they gave the job (IT management) to another man who has a degree in, are you ready, Philosophy of Art. This guy has NO clue what he's doing. Dh basically cleans up after this guy, and tells him what needs to be done. Everyone knows that dh should have the job, but he won't get it because he doesn't have that stamp on his resume that says BS or BA. His boss has told him to go back to school and get a degree in anything even if it's Basket Weaving because all that matters are the initials of the Bachelors.

 

And therein is the silliness of it all. Certainly for some professions, walking with the herd is necessary. It's for that we'll be spending many hours of our days thinking about future paths. While I don't hold college up as a requisite experience, some life paths do, and I want my children to understand which do and which don't. My goal is for my children to be comfortable with walking the cattle line when it's necessary, but avoid it when it's not. While some meat packers (er, employers) might find that threatening, the good companies to work for will see the value in creative thinking.

[spradlin02]

AND... it's part of the reason I'm insisting my academically capable boys will be getting their degrees after high school. It's the system we live in. I suspect all three will use their degrees, but if not, they'll still have them. But none will have tons of debt.

 

Good point. I think I'll do a great deal of thinking on this subject as soon as I get my act together for our first year. Thankfully, I have a couple of years before it gets pressing, but I want to start laying the foundation for the future very early in my children. It's unfortunate that so many young adults in our society squander their most productive and dynamic years.

[spradlin02]

Therein lies the root of the problem: employers essentially discriminating against a clearly qualified person who doesn't have that blessed piece of paper. It's stupid, and it needs to change.

 

STUPID!

[Renee in NC]

How about a state school? or even an associates from a business college-my DSIS is getting one of those now. Anyway, if everyone read my whole post-it would be noted that I mentioned a degree or at least some classes.

 

My father has been in business for himself all his life (until recently - he went to work as a plumbing inspector) and he NEVER could have graduated college, even a 2 year program. Never. He could not have taken classes, or if he had it wouldn't have done him a bit of good.

 

I have a couple of children who most likely will never go to college because they don't have the ability. The majority of the COUNTRY doesn't have the ability to go to college and succeed (despite what anyone wants to think.)

 

ETA: What percentage of jobs actually require a college degree? If the push is for everyone to go to college (which it is and more than just this thread) who is going to do all the jobs that do not need a college degree? Are people really going to pay to go to 4 more years of school in order to make toilets, install them, or clean them?

Edited May 21, 2010 by Renee in FL

[Renee in NC]

To add one more thing:

 

The list of the fastest growing jobs and the comments afterwards about how much those jobs pay was pretty telling. Did anyone else note that both caring for our children and caring for our elderly fall into that category (low paying, low skill jobs?)

[Mom-ninja.]

Most of us on here will agree with you that it's not right, but nonetheless, it is the system. Your/his choice appears to be get the degree, stay where he is, or start his own company where he sets the rules. IRL I know people in very similar situations (lots of experience, no degree, no degree needed to do the next job). All of them opted to get the degree. Protesting sounds nice, but it doesn't change opinions and the promotion meant better pay... worth the annoyance to them since nothing was realistically going to change without it.

 

AND... it's part of the reason I'm insisting my academically capable boys will be getting their degrees after high school. It's the system we live in. I suspect all three will use their degrees, but if not, they'll still have them. But none will have tons of debt.

 

Same here. I insist that my boys go to college. They may or may not need it but they'll have it.

 

 

 

Therein lies the root of the problem: employers essentially discriminating against a clearly qualified person who doesn't have that blessed piece of paper. It's stupid, and it needs to change.

 

Yes, it does need to change. In the mean time dh will be going back to taking classes.

[weaver_67579]

My father has been in business for himself all his life (until recently - he went to work as a plumbing inspector) and he NEVER could have graduated college, even a 2 year program. Never. He could not have taken classes, or if he had it wouldn't have done him a bit of good.

 

I have a couple of children who most likely will never go to college because they don't have the ability. The majority of the COUNTRY doesn't have the ability to go to college and succeed (despite what anyone wants to think.)

 

ETA: What percentage of jobs actually require a college degree? If the push is for everyone to go to college (which it is and more than just this thread) who is going to do all the jobs that do not need a college degree? Are people really going to pay to go to 4 more years of school in order to make toilets, install them, or clean them?

 

was generalities. We all know people that wouldn't do well in college or that had great success without it. I know far more personally that feel that it has been a benefit for them. I don't know if I know any that regret it altogether. I wish I had been more careful about the cost and worked more while in school to have less debt.

 

I do find the statement that the majority of students in the country do not have the ability to go to college and succeed really sad. I see a lot of bright kids. One thing I found out in college was that those that did well-for the most part were the ones that wanted to and worked hard. A neighbor of mine did very well in college after struggling with learning disabilities and barely getting through high school. (I know a "I know someone that...story:)) He tried harder than anyone I know. His brother (literally testing in the genius realm) flunked out of college-he didn't try, but now he is thriving in the military. Anyway, I would hate to discourage my kid from going because I think they can't do it. I do know my view might be "tainted" by the fact that both DH and I are college graduates. I also know that his family very much discouraging him from going due to the beliefs of the church they attended makes him very willing to encourage his kids in the pursuit of higher education.

 

As for the percentage of jobs requiring a college degree...Don't know here. I do expect that someone I pay to do any of the things listed such as installing toilets, has had some training and a lisence. The toilet cleaner in this house has a Bachelors in Animal Bioscience from Penn State-and it was totally worth it:). In my former job as a lab technician, I had people under me that I trained that did not have college degrees. They could do the work. They did not understand the chemistry that they were doing or how it related to the feeding of livestock-both of which I gained in college. Consequently, they could not talk to the customers when problems arose since they did not have a working knowledge in those fields. Could they do the day to day work? yep-filled in when I was on vacation. Could they really perform all the things I did at the workplace-no. I don't think my employer wanted to give chemistry and ruminant nutrition classes so he just hired people with science degrees and had a vet on staff. Sure there are jobs that can be learned and I am sure there are plenty of them. However, I think there are also plenty of them that have reasons for hiring people with an educational background in the field-even if it is not super specific. It is easier and faster to train someone that has a head start with the subject than starting with square one. It might not be possible to wait a year till an employee is up to snuff on XYX that a new college grad would understand right out of school. DH runs a feed mill and all the people he hires for sales have ag degrees. They have to have a working understanding of balancing rations and animal feeding. Could people learn this? sure. How long would he have to train someone in that to have them able to work in the field?

 

oops-gotta go baby on the lap is mad....:)

Edited May 21, 2010 by weaver_67579