Are these standards acceptable?

[Harriet Vane]

Ok--I'll be honest here, I really just want affirmation.

 

I taught a Medieval Lit co-op class for high schoolers this year. My own dd was the youngest in the class as a 7th grader. I had one 8th grader and the rest were high schoolers, some older, a few younger.

 

I expected 100pgs or less of reading per week depending upon the difficulty of the text.

 

Most works were given 2-3 weeks of class time.

 

Some weeks the students were expected to simply take notes on the text to be used for a future essay assignment. Other weeks they had light writing assignments. For example, when we read St. Teresa of Avila, they all wrote a one-page "Dear Teresa" column in which they posed a question about prayer and answered as St. Teresa would have done. Other weeks they had a formal essay to prove a point about the text and support it with material from the text. They never ever had two formal essays in a row--the formal essays were balanced between the notes I mentioned or the lighter writing assignments.

 

Younger students wrote 1-2 pages; older students wrote 2-3. There were two occasions that I asked the younger students to definitely do two full pages, and the older students were expected to do 3-4 on those two occasions. Papers were single spaced with extra line spaces between paragraphs.

 

I came up with these standards partially based on feedback here on the board last August, and partially based on my memory of my high school classes at a college prep private academy. I figured if the kids were in a brick and mortar school they would have five hours of class time per week, daily reading assignments of perhaps 20-25 pages, and some writing. For the co-op, therefore, one hour of class per week plus the writing I have outlined here plus 100 pgs or less of reading seemed reasonable.

 

Some of the parents have made comments about the workload lately. I am truly at a loss to understand. They ALL agreed to this verbally and in writing. My own kid is the youngest in the class and she has kept up just fine (though she is strong in language arts and writing).

 

I think they are tired at the end of the year, but I still find myself unhappy about the comments. I have worked my tail off this year and put in hours that were sacrificial for me. I wish they were not grumbling.

 

I have also seen measurable improvement in ALL the kids' writing, and our class discussions are great. I feel like I have a good rapport with the class.

 

The little comments by the moms are just getting under my skin, so I have come here for affirmation--the class expectations are reasonable, aren't they?

Edited May 7, 2010 by strider

[edithcrawley]

It seems perfectly fine to me. It will prepare them well for what will be expected of them in college.

[Michelle in AL]

:iagree:

 

I teach the same class :D

 

I assign about the same amount, with the exception of Shakespeare, which I slow down greatly. I'm doing Shakespeare now, which maybe why I'm not getting complaints.

 

The only difference, in my class and yours is that I don't assign writing as often (about every 2 weeks), and the papers may be shorter.

 

I know that some kids in my class don't keep up with the reading. I hope they get something out of the class from either discussion or through the writing assignments. I haven't had any complaints re: the amount of reading, so I don't think you're off base there. It's probably just the end of the yr.

 

I decided to do a poetry unit at the end of next yr to avoid the "end of the year" lag.

[Ester Maria]

Approx. 100 pages/week, if I understood correctly, includes both primary and secondary texts? If you are careful to assign shorter reading assignments when you have a more 'dense' text, it seems reasonable to me.

 

The length of essays throughout the course seems reasonable too, both with regards to the criteria for younger and older students.

Actually, if something is "too much" - it's the insisting on note taking (one of the things I personally found rather useless with many students when I taught). Everything seems balanced and normal to me.

[TravelingChris]

So were they doing the 1-2 page writing or the 2-3 page writing every week along with the readings?

 

First of all, I would not complain if it was all spelled out. However, I think the essay, if every week, is a bit much. I guess it depends on the grades of the participants. Certainly more than I would expect from 9th and 10th graders. Even for olders, I don't know that I would do an essay a week.

[Harriet Vane]

So were they doing the 1-2 page writing or the 2-3 page writing every week along with the readings?

 

First of all, I would not complain if it was all spelled out. However, I think the essay, if every week, is a bit much. I guess it depends on the grades of the participants. Certainly more than I would expect from 9th and 10th graders. Even for olders, I don't know that I would do an essay a week.

 

They had all previously done a writing assignment each and every week, for years. The difference was that it was always one page, no matter the age. I changed this, with full disclosure to all in August, because one page does not allow for a more in-depth analysis and therefore is not a good preparation for college expectations.

 

As I said in my OP, I have definitely NOTassigned a formal essay every week. Many weeks the writing was under a page for all--like writing a character description or jotting a timeline of events. Sometimes they did NO writing, but marked passages in the text preparatory to a fuller essay down the road (taking notes as mentioned in my OP). Other times the writing was 1-2 pages or 2-3 pages, but an easy assignment (like a short opinion piece about the student's ideal society when we read Utopia). And yes, about once every 4-6 weeks they wrote a formal essay, 1-2 pages for younger students and 2-3 for olders.

 

I should have mentioned in my OP but did not--the weeks that a formal essay was due were usually weeks that the reading of the work was completed, so their primary assignment on the work was to write.

 

When I was in high school, I remember having daily reading assignments and having to do a lot of writing. I am honestly surprised that you think expecting writing from high school students is too much. My 7th grader has handled the workload just fine this year, and am truly, honestly perplexed at the idea that it could be too much. In a given week my dd spent less than an hour a day on lit. On the lighter assignment weeks, her writing time was also an hour or less for the entire week. The weeks she had a formal essay due she would write more but had less reading to do, so it didn't affect the hours she put in by all that much.

[Kareni]

It sounds very reasonable to me; it's a class I would have liked my daughter to have taken.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Brindee]

It sounds very reasonable to me; it's a class I would have liked my daughter to have taken.

 

Regards,

Kareni

:iagree: I wouldn't mind my dd taking that class, I feel it would be a great learning experience!

[Sophia]

I think you did those students a favor by imposing those requirements even if they and their parents don't realize it yet.

[4wildberrys]

Well it sure sounds like a well put together, well thought out class! What exactly are these parents complaining about? Are they having to put in more time helping their kids than they anticipated? And I'm not saying that in any snarky way----it just seems like these co-op classes have an issue with parents perhaps thinking they are 'free' from any teaching or supervising responsibility and when it's not the case----it gets uncomfortable for the mom doing the work of teaching and trying to get some kids to not only take things seriously, but work hard.

 

What a tough position, too, to be Teacher and have to take parents complaining! Are they expecting you to lighten the work load simply because they are homeschoolers, because it's spring and they feel don't like working so hard anymore? Honestly---what I would do is just simply remind everyone that Yes, It's really hard to continue working hard in Spring, but you have a responsibility to finish teaching this class that everyone so eagerly signed on to earlier in the year---so let's keep working until we are done troops! ;) Regular schools NEVER quit or lighten the workload simply because parents/kids just don't 'feel like it anymore'. I would really say that.

[angela in ohio]

I think they are tired at the end of the year, but I still find myself unhappy about the comments. I have worked my tail off this year and put in hours that were sacrificial for me. I wish they were not grumbling.

 

I have also seen measurable improvement in ALL the kids' writing, and our class discussions are great. I feel like I have a good rapport with the class.

 

The little comments by the moms are just getting under my skin, so I have come here for affirmation--the class expectations are reasonable, aren't they?

 

Honestly, as much as you are teaching the dc, you need to also (kindly) teach their parents. They need to know that this is unacceptable behavior toward a teacher who is helping their dc. I would say:

 

"I have worked very hard for this class, and I have achieved visible success with your student. It is hurtful to me for you to compain about expectations that you initially agreed to. It makes me feel that you do not appreciate my efforts. I just wanted to make you aware of how your comments come across."

[Murphy101]

My only quibble, which I would keep to myself, is basing the writing assignment on page length. An essay is 5 or more paragraphs. I don't care how many pages it is as long as it's properly done.

 

And one a week plus reading would not bother me.

[Laurie4b]

It sounds like a high quality class. It may be that some of the students have more difficulty with writing and maybe that is causing the complaining. If a parent hasn't taught his/her child to write an essay of that length or if the particular child just has difficulty writing, then that amount of writing may indeed be hard. The issue isn't the age of the student so much as the ability to get thoughts down on paper. Additionally, this is the time of year when everything comes due, including in extra-curric's like drama (plays are done), sports (play-offs), recitals, etc. etc. However, I think it's a benefit to them in the longrun.

 

If you wanted, though, you might take it as feedback that for next year it would be good to shoot for a 2 page paper less frequently, and maybe finish up the last one by the end of April.

 

For some reference: ds took a community college course in history this past semester, and they were asked to write a 2 page (500 word) paper each week, and had one term paper. No tests. He has taken literature from an outstanding teacher (not cc) for 3 years. She assigns a "quick-write" of about a page once a week and 4 times a year there is a longer writing assignment.

[elfinbaby]

I believe they are acceptable 100%. After talking with other moms who teach or participate in co-op classes, I'm discovering that many hs homeschoolers simply are not getting the writing instruction they need (this is just what I'm personally hearing around my neck of the woods). When my dc get to the high school level, I fully intend to participate in a very rigorous program.

 

We do CC right now so, if we continue, they will enter Challenge in jr. high and high school. If you go to the CC website, you'll find that, in hs, they will read about 20 books (in I and II) and write a paper on each. That means every 1-2 wks. they read/write about a book. Simple. Some of the books are very challenging. The is college preparation!! If I were a parent, I would thank you:)

 

We do Essentials in CC (for the past 2 yrs.). There aren't any reading assignments but writing part of a paper or even a complete 5 paragraph paper isn't unusual for students 4-6. Perhaps these parents aren't thinking ahead. Perhaps their children need more writing instruction. I realize writing may be easier/more difficult for different children but, if these students are college bound, they should just get used to it.

 

JMO:D

[Leanna Tomlinson]

 

Papers were single spaced with extra line spaces between paragraphs.

I have a question about this format. Is this OK now? I have students hand papers in with this format, but I haven't allowed it. This is only based on my own high school requirements, the standards set by my dd's first comp. teacher, and my (outdated) MLA handbook. Is single spacing with space between paragraphs an accepted standard? If it is, I need to start allowing this, although I do find it easier to grade a double spaced paper.

 

I came up with these standards partially based on feedback here on the board last August, and partially based on my memory of my high school classes at a college prep private academy. I figured if the kids were in a brick and mortar school they would have five hours of class time per week, daily reading assignments of perhaps 20-25 pages, and some writing. For the co-op, therefore, one hour of class per week plus the writing I have outlined here plus 100 pgs or less of reading seemed reasonable.

Your standards are right in line with mine.

 

Some of the parents have made comments about the workload lately.

 

The little comments by the moms are just getting under my skin, so I have come here for affirmation--the class expectations are reasonable, aren't they?

 

I have had this happen too. It's so discouraging. I did realize a few surprising issues were contributing to the problem. Many families were not used to high school requirements. These moms had grown accustomed to kids being completely finished with their school work by early afternoon. At the same time, these moms had grown to depend on these (often eldest) children to help a great deal with housework/babysitting etc. They wanted their teens to finish school in 3-4 hours per day. When I gave a talk about "What to Expect in High School" to several moms, things changed. Several families left our co-op because they had a different vision of education. The ones who stayed learned to allow their kids to have enough hours for school work.

 

Another common problem was that parents and students were not communicating. I started asking more questions when I received complaints or comments. Oftentimes, a student would allow his/her parents to believe an assignment was just recently given to them, when the assignment was actually several weeks old, and should have been completed over several days or weeks. I had a few students who led their parents to believe they were working in their rooms, when they were really participating in computer social networks. An unintentional episode of eavesdropping on my part, and a few checks on Facebook revealed to me that the students who were "working day and night to finish their assignments" were really hiding in their rooms enjoying the freedom from household responsibilities. ("Yeah, I love it when our moms think we have a big paper due, and they leave us alone.") I know this isn't true for everyone, but I found it to be true for three of my students. When I tipped the moms to what was going on, they were shocked, but they acted, and assignments didn't seem to be so burdensome anymore. ;)

Edited May 7, 2010 by Leanna
add a word

[TravelingChris]

FIrst of all, I would not be one of the parents to complain. I expect teachers to say what they expect and then do this. I either praise or I don't say anything. I don't complain and have a hard time understanding why someone would complain if you did what you said you would do.

 

On the other hand, two - three pages single space every week seems a lot to me. How easy it is to write that much and how quickly a child will do it completely depends on a child. I have one who will write a well written scene of a page and a half double spaced _ the norm around here- in about five minutes. But she was in an honors college class that required a paper a week and that paper was supposed to be no more than two and half pages (double spaced) which was doable for her. She may very well have been able to double that (what you seem to require) but it wouldn't take an hour. For my oldest and my youngest, that assignment would be quite a long one. As a pp suggested, you may wnat to change page length to paragraphs or certain topics covered. As a grader, I prefer shorter papers that cover the material to longer papers that cover the same material but wander around doing it.

[Harriet Vane]

 

On the other hand, two - three pages single space every week seems a lot to me.

 

I mentioned in two separate posts that they have not had to write 2-3 pages every single week. I did specifically state that many weeks they were required to take notes or mark in the text, or write a simple character description or timeline. (A character description is usually a paragraph, and a timeline has usually been 1/2 to 3/4 of a page long). I also specifically stated that an actual, formal essay was only due roughly every 4 weeks or so, with much easier, lighter writing assignments and the simple notes/timelines/character descriptions interspersed in between. I also stated that younger students write only 1-2 pages, when there is a longer writing assignment.

 

I appreciate your affirmation that you would not complain about the class, but I would like you to recognize that your assertion that I have assigned 2-3 pages per week is inaccurate.

[TravelingChris]

Sorry, then I really have no idea why anyone would complain about a 4-6 page (2-3 SS) assignment every three weeks. That seems totally reasonable.

[Harriet Vane]

I have a question about this format. Is this OK now? I have students hand papers in with this format, but I haven't allowed it. This is only based on my own high school requirements, the standards set by my dd's first comp. teacher, and my (outdated) MLA handbook. Is single spacing with space between paragraphs an accepted standard? If it is, I need to start allowing this, although I do find it easier to grade a double spaced paper.

This one I did not research for an official standard. I just stated that this format is my preference. Prior to my stating that I was getting all kinds of papers, some handwritten, some extensively doodled on, and some with creative spacing and margins. I simply decreed a uniform standard to knock out the nonsense.

 

I have had this happen too. It's so discouraging. I did realize a few surprising issues were contributing to the problem. Many families were not used to high school requirements. These moms had grown accustomed to kids being completely finished with their school work by early afternoon. At the same time, these moms had grown to depend on these (often eldest) children to help a great deal with housework/babysitting etc. They wanted their teens to finish school in 3-4 hours per day. When I gave a talk about "What to Expect in High School" to several moms, things changed. Several families left our co-op because they had a different vision of education. The ones who stayed learned to allow their kids to have enough hours for school work.

 

Yes, over the years I have learned that different people have different expectations, especially in a group class. I have tried to just be as clear as possible verbally and in writing about what I expect in my classes.

 

 

 

Thanks for your response. Some thoughts above.

[Harriet Vane]

Sorry, then I really have no idea why anyone would complain about a 4-6 page (2-3 SS) assignment every three weeks. That seems totally reasonable.

 

Thanks. :)

[Harriet Vane]

It sounds like a high quality class. It may be that some of the students have more difficulty with writing and maybe that is causing the complaining. If a parent hasn't taught his/her child to write an essay of that length or if the particular child just has difficulty writing, then that amount of writing may indeed be hard. The issue isn't the age of the student so much as the ability to get thoughts down on paper. Additionally, this is the time of year when everything comes due, including in extra-curric's like drama (plays are done), sports (play-offs), recitals, etc. etc. However, I think it's a benefit to them in the longrun.

 

If you wanted, though, you might take it as feedback that for next year it would be good to shoot for a 2 page paper less frequently, and maybe finish up the last one by the end of April.

 

For some reference: ds took a community college course in history this past semester, and they were asked to write a 2 page (500 word) paper each week, and had one term paper. No tests. He has taken literature from an outstanding teacher (not cc) for 3 years. She assigns a "quick-write" of about a page once a week and 4 times a year there is a longer writing assignment.

 

Thanks. I especially appreciate the frame of reference you provide in your last paragraph.