Sibling rivalry... a little vent and looking for new strategies.

[5LittleMonkeys]

One of my favorite books in the world is Siblings Without Rivalry; I have read it many, many times and love it. The book suggests not getting involved in every little altercation between your children. It teaches to give your dc problem solving suggestions to work out their own differences. I do this.... A LOT. However, there are times when something they do to one of the others rubs me completely wrong (especially when it is olders picking on youngers) and I find myself getting involved and giving this long speech about treating each other kindly and with love. I'm sure all they hear is blah, blah, blah. Sometimes I feel the suggestions in the book just aren't working. Sure I could tell 3rd to go explain to the others how that made her feel and could they please not do it again but honestly it doesn't make her feel better and sometimes I feel the 1st and 2nd just need their heads knocked together.

 

So, just a little while ago my two oldest tell my third that if she wants to come play with them she can. So gleefully 3rd goes racing upstairs and goes into 1st and 2nds room. Well, 1st and 2nd say, nevermind and tell her to get out and when 3rd asks why they pick her up by arms and legs and start to carry her out of the room. All the while 3rd is saying please put me down. I'm downstairs hearing all of this and trying to decide the best way to deal with it. They plop her down in the hallway and slam the door on her; she's crying quietly and comes to ask me why they have to always be so mean to her. Which they are. The two olders are 14 months apart and buddies and pals and usually the only time they want to play with 3rd is when they are using her as a pawn in a battle of wills between each other. They will occasionally include her in their play but she has to play their way and when they are done with her they dismiss her whether she wants to stop playing or not.

 

1st and 2nd are now sitting on the couch for a silent time out (but ofcoarse they aren't upset that they were cruel, they are upset because in their eyes 3rd got them in trouble), 3rd is playing with legos with daddy and I'm trying to think of some way to get it through my olders head's that they shouldn't treat the younger that way.

I have given so many speeches about the Golden Rule and how they shouldn't treat 3rd badly because...insert one of about 100 different reasons I've given them. Is it time to forget about teaching them to be kind and just dole out punishments for cruel teasing and for physically man-handling the 3rd. (By the way they adore the baby and never treat the 4 yr.old badly; it's just the 7 yr.old)

 

Anyone else have similar dynamics in your household and found an effective way to deal with it? I'm ready for a new strategy because the nicey, nicey, feel good, warm and fuzzy strategy just isn't working. By the way, ignoring this type of behavior is not an option for me. I've tried it and it doesn't work for our family due to the number of dc we have and also because it completely goes against my nature. Okay, lay it on me!

[Jean in Newcastle]

My kids would have had big consequences for telling a younger sibling to come play and then "changing their minds".

 

Here's what I told my kids just the other day. (It is cc. so if it doesn't apply to you, just ignore it).

 

God has given us mouths for a number of reasons. One of them is to communicate. Communication has a purpose. It can be to tell someone facts, to warn them of danger, to lift them up, to tear them down etc. God wants us to communicate only in certain ways. Communicating in a way that tears someone down is sin and is not acceptable in our house. If I hear anyone communicating in such a way, there will be consequences.

 

God has also given us ears. It allows us to hear communication. Sometimes we hear things the way they were intended. But sometimes because we have a chip on our shoulders or are sulking etc. we do not hear things properly. That is not the fault of the communicator in this case, it is the fault of the one with the ears. Before you react, stop and think about the intent of the person communicating with you. If I hear you reacting without proper regard to what and how something was communicated, not only will you not get sympathy, you will be redirected to some household task to get your mind off of yourself.

 

Now if I hear stuff happening in the next room, all I have to do most of the time is to say "Communication" and things start to settle down. If that doesn't work, I follow through as promised.

[Sasharowan]

We pretty much have a rule that no one can be left out. If the 9 & 10yo want to play something that the 4yo can't play, they need to schedule it with me before hand so I can do something with the 4yo. The only time we make exceptions to the rule is if someone has a special friend over and requests that part of the visit be only kid and friend. The hardest thing around here is the 4yo wants the 14yo to play with him and the 14yo is too old to play toys. Although that is getting better since we have some video games that both the 14yo and the 4yo can play. If mine don't want to play nice together, I have plenty of housework and schoolwork that needs doing.

[fairfarmhand]

I have a 12 yr old and a 8 yr old (girls), so while the younger really WANTS to play with her older sister, she really has trouble relating. I can imagine it would be worse if there was 2 olders. And your poor middle child is really wanting to be a BIG girl like the other 2.

 

One thing that helps here is that I NEVER allow for pestering, teasing, picking etc. That causes strife and is NOT tolerated in anyone, older or younger.

 

Would your older girls play with her like 20 minutes at a time one on one, (so that it doesn't turn into 2 vs. 1)? all they have to do is do it for 20 minutes in the morning and 20 minutes in the afternoon. This might give the younger the attention she is looking for so she can find something else to do later either alone or with one of the other siblings or with you.

 

That would give you 40 minutes in the morning and 40 in the afternoon to have some peace and quiet. Also, when talking about this to the older's you may make more headway if you speak to them one on one, rather than corporately. For whatever reason, my kids react better to a stern talking to if they are not in the same room. And for lectures, ask lots of questions, rather than just doing all the talking.

 

"child A what was the problem up there? What do you think caused it? I know you are annoyed with child C but have you ever thought about what she feels like when you ___? What would be a better way to deal with this? (and no, mailing her to australia is not an option) You know I get really frustrated when I continually have to solve your problems. Can you think of a solution for this constant bickering? Is there a way that I can help you? Don't you think that you and child B are old enough to learn to get along with other people that you may not necessarily like? Or do I need to be standing by like I did when you were toddlers to make sure you can "play nice"? etc.

 

Also I know it is hard but try to not always be on one child's side or the other. I can't tell from your post whether that is the case or not, but sometimes I do need to address the way the younger child behaved, as well as the older sister's over-reaction.

 

I don't know whether this helps or not. I'm with you; constant bickering makes me NUTS!

[cougarmom4]

I totally get what you are saying. For some reason, two can play well together and whenever the third is added to the mix, all heck can break loose. It's kinda weird with our crew--it changes frequently--it's not always the same two playing well together...but we are incapable of playing in groups of 3 unless a parent is close by. Drives me nuts.

 

A few possible suggestions for you:

--Could you have 30-minute blocks of time where dd1 & dd3 play together and then at another time dd2 & dd3 play...and then give dd1 & dd2 time without dd3. Seems like it might be a little too much 'micromanaging' to actually make it happen, but somehow encouraging & teaching the olders to play with dd3.

 

--Is there something that you can encourage all three to play together, if just for a few minutes a day. Perhaps a fun game that all three could play together or an art activity. You might need to be right there at the beginning, but then go in another room and see how they do. Perhaps you'd need to set expectations and then give them a chance to try it.

[Meriwether]

I have to say I was angry just reading your post. Not at you, of course. But there is NO WAY I would allow one of my kids to be treated that way. To invite her to play and then do that! My #3 is two years younger than #2. There are times when he gets left out because he is too little to do what the older two are doing. Tonight for example, the older two will go to TKD and he will either go along to watch or stay home with me. But the olders are not allowed to run off and leave him when they are at home.

 

Bottom line, if they can't play nicely with #3, they can't play. I would make them include her in EVERYTHING they do until it is natural and normal to include her nicely. EACH and EVERY time they did something unkind, they would be sitting alone on a bed until they decided they could treat everyone in the family kindly. She is a person worthy of respect and kindness. There is enough nastiness in the world outside the home; she doesn't need to deal with it at home. I'm sorry if I'm coming across too strongly, but I actually felt my blood pressure rise when I read the post. I would work on their attitudes toward their sister every day until it improved - for months or years if it proved necessary.

 

My son was unkind to one of my nephews twice (on consecutive visits) before I caught on to what was happening. He knows if it ever happens again his life will be miserable the entire visit. Since we've had that discussion he has had a ton of fun with this cousin, but if I had let him be mean, I'm pretty sure the pattern would have continued.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Meriwether

[StephanieZ]

FWIW, I think it is important to intervene in these situations.

 

My mom was a big believer in letting the kids work it out. Well, my big brother and I did work things out. But, we not only were terrible to each other and made mom miserable. . . we also built very destructive habits.

 

He bullied me (and was a foot taller). . . I learned to fight with mean words since I couldn't be bigger/stronger. . .

 

We had a vicious rivalry that lasted until our 30s!

 

Anyway, with MY kids, I intervene right off the bat and punish/correct for cruelty, unkindness, etc. It may not elimiate it 100%, but I can assure you that my kids are 100 times kinder to each other than my brother and I were.

 

I treat the bad behaviors just like I do any other. . . Rules, consequences, etc.

 

HTH

[Danestress]

It's not working to ignore it. Who could possibly ignore that? It doesn't protect your third daughter from their abuse, and really, you don't do the older two any favors by letting them get away with that either.

 

And "talk talk lecture reason" is also not working. I'm sure everything you say during those talks is good, but it's not changing them for the better. Kids tune out mothers who talk a lot and give long explanations for why X is better than Y. In my personal opinion, you only need one reason. Because it's my house and I said so.

 

Could you maybe just have a rule that any fussing means that people have too much time on their hands and need to do something diverting - like pulling weeds, washing cars and windows, vacuuming, scrubbing tubs, clipping hedges or even working math problems, walking babies, making grocery lists? I think I would just be very matter of fact about this. I would say that too much free time is a problem and that if they can't all get along, they won't have as much free time. Then you are not stuck trying to figure out who is right and who is wrong. If the 3rd daughter decides that something is worth screaming and crying over, then she pays the price of having chores along with the others. Likewise, if you hear them being cruel, they all get to work for a while. No innocent victim, no bad guy, no ignoring meanness. And your house will probably end up looking awesome:)

 

Also, pretty soon you will be able, if you aren't already, to leave the two oldest girls while you are out with the others. You will find ways to let those two have time together to develop their own relationship. I think that it's good they can do so. But I would not allow that to be a hurtful process for the third daughter. I just wouldn't waste my time trying to convince them. Make it miserable to be mean, and they will do less of it.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Danestress

[justamouse]

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

I don't allow it. There's nothing to work out themselves, this is a heart attitude and one of empathy, compassion and love. (And, no going back on your word.)

 

I don't think punishment is going to work, it will only breed more resentment. You need to figure out something that will enable the olders to understand and feel loving toward the little.

 

I would ask them if they felt treating their little sister like that was kind and loving. I would ask them if they would like to be treated like that. I would ask them if being treated like that made them feel loved. I would ask them if anyone had ever treated them that way before, and how it made them feel. I would ask them to apologize, and make sure it was sincere.

[Sue G in PA]

Stuff like that happens around here all the time. It makes me livid. Changing minds? Nah. It is a lie...meant to deceive the younger, more naive. It is a sin. Around here, it means making it up to the offended...big time. Taking over chores for a week, extra playtime with the offended doing what THAT CHILD wants to do (even if it is playing Barbies!), serving in some way, etc. Bickering gets me crazy but unless it turns into violence or name-calling...I try to stay out.

[Kfamily]

My older dd and younger dd are almost 6 years apart...this is a big age difference but they are still very close. We always felt the same way as some close friends of ours did (they had lots of girls) and that was the idea that if you can't be a good friend to your sibling than you couldn't be a good friend to your friends. So, time spent playing with friends could be canceled if you couldn't be nice to your siblings.

 

I see this less as a sibling problem and more as a problem with how we treat others in general. I tell my older dd that she is the elder sister and that it is up to her to guard and protect her younger sister (to a degree obviously). I have always insisted that she could not speak in a degrading manner to her sister just because she is younger or not as adept yet in this world. Enforcing this has worked, because she is now a lovely and devoted sister and they have a truly unique relationship.

 

Hope this helps a little. My dds are 13 and 7 so I know how hard it can be for them to find common ground.

[Mothersweets]

It's not working to ignore it. Who could possibly ignore that? It doesn't protect your third daughter from their abuse, and really, you don't do the older two any favors by letting them get away with that either.

 

And "talk talk lecture reason" is also not working. I'm sure everything you say during those talks is good, but it's not changing them for the better. Kids tune out mothers who talk a lot and give long explanations for why X is better than Y. In my personal opinion, you only need on reason. Because it's my house and I said so.

 

Could you maybe just have a rule that any fussing means that people have too much time on their hands and need to do something diverting - like pulling weeds, washing cars and windows, vacuuming, scrubbing tubs, clipping hedges or even working math problems, walking babies, making grocery lists? I think I would just be very matter of fact about this. I would say that too much free time is a problem and that if they can't all get along, they won't have as much free time. Then you are not stuck trying to figure out who is right and who is wrong. If the 3rd daughter decides that something is worth screaming and crying over, then she pays the price of having chores along with the others. Likewise, if you hear them being cruel, they all get to work for a while. No innocent victim, no bad guy, no ignoring meanness. And your house will probably end up looking awesome:)

 

Also, pretty soon you will be able, if you aren't already, to leave the two oldest girls while you are out with the others. You will find ways to let those two have time together to develop their own relationship. I think that it's good they can do so. But I would not allow that to be a hurtful process for the third daughter. I just wouldn't waste my time trying to convince them. Make it miserable to be mean, and they will do less of it.

 

:iagree:I have seven daughters and I've seen this happen alot between them. Ime, it seems to happen between girls and not boys. Anyway, Danestress's solution is what has worked the best at my house! Good luck, oh, and they do get older and become the best of friends!

[InHisGrip]

Agreeing with all of the advice/suggestions so far....the sibling bickering and arguments drive me nuts!!!! But, we have definitely seen some improvement here the last couple of years and for the most part, my kids do play well together. I remember a time when I did not give consequences for the way they spoke to and treated each other until one day I realized that I would NEVER allow them to speak to anyone else in the world the way they were speaking to each other. So, why was it right to allow them to do it to each other? That was my epiphany and things have greatly improved around here - they are by no means perfect, though. I have to remind myself that I am training them (which keeps me from seeing it as something that will change magically overnight) and like to dream of the future where one day, when they're older, they will have a lot of good skills with dealing relationally with others.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Oh my goodness you all are wonderful. I was going to quote some of the things that really hit home with me but there are too many. Everyone of you so far as said something or made a suggestion that really resonates with me. I am actually taking notes!

 

I think this type of behavior kind of crept up on me. When they were all younger there just weren't the same dynamics between them.

 

I have lots of new ideas to mull over. Oh, and by the way as of right now they are both still sitting on the couch. After about 20 minutes I handed them each a book and told them that it was in their best interest to be quiet and still. I am going to go now and tell them that we will be having a meeting in the morning regarding some new rules regarding behavior towards siblings. They looked kind of worried.:D

 

If anyone else has effective strategies keep them coming!

[fairfarmhand]

I am going to go now and tell them that we will be having a meeting in the morning regarding some new rules regarding behavior towards siblings. They looked kind of worried.:D

 

If anyone else has effective strategies keep them coming!

 

Write it down. You act like this then you get x chores or x punishment. Life works out so much better when it is set out in black and white. Post it in a prominent place.

 

Eliminates any debate about what I meant, what they thought I said, blah blah blah.