S/O -- Christian Marriage Wife Submission

[Marylou]

yes way!!

 

Christ did submit to the church--even to the point of death. Jesus submitted to the Father and to his will (which included the cross), not to the church. There is a huge difference.

 

and I'd have to disagree w/ Martha Peace after looking at the grammatical structure of that passage in its entirety.

 

But I think a Christian wife can submit in whatever way works for her marriage. :D I hope you're just kidding? Pragmatism and following Christ mix about as well as oil and water :confused:

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[Jean in Newcastle]

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I agree that Christ submitted to the Father and not the church. The church was not even in existence yet.

[asta]

I agree that Christ submitted to the Father and not the church. The church was not even in existence yet.

 

:lurk5:

[KidsHappen]

so this is a self-reflective question (not like you need to answer *me*): do you struggle submitting to the Lord? You seem very strong-willed (like a 90's woman ;) I don't know how else to describe it :))...do you find it difficult to submit to what He says in His Word? (I guess you could only answer this if you are Christian - I don't remember if you mentioned this or not)

 

I ask this b/c I was brought up to be that woman and it *is* difficult for me to submit but I know it is what He wants and He is changing me everyday so that it is easier to do so now than it was at the beg. of our marriage (only 4.5 yrs ago)... (I put that in to show that I am not judging - I have asked that Q of myself MANY times!) :tongue_smilie:

 

I'll chime in here as well. I am not Christian but if I was this would be a major no go for me. I have a hard enough time with idea of submitting to a God that would make demands of me much less a mere human. Even if started with ideal partners, this would have to go to a person's head. Complete power corrupts completely and a subjugated person begins to believe that really are less than.

 

I do believe in God and I believe that he has written his wishes into our very DNA. We are part of God and therefore we know what he wants of us. He is not a person commanding from on high but our subconcious speaking from within. The only person that anyone needs to struggle with is themselves to act according to what they know in their heart to be what God wishes of them.

[Peek a Boo]

I agree that Christ submitted to the Father and not the church. The church was not even in existence yet.

 

again: scripture interprets scripture:

 

we are to submit To One Another. Christ already showed us that example.

 

Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28; cf. Mark 10:42-45 and Luke 22:25-27)

 

everything in scripture reveals something about Christ.

 

If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

 

Christ repeatedly submits to the church on earth in His Servant-Leadership.

 

but as has already been mentioned, that is hard to fathom if you separate submission from Love.

 

the Church was in existence as the Bride of Christ, just as Christ was The Christ before He was ever born.

 

But then we get into theological debates about "What is the Church and when did IT begin"..... ;)

[lionfamily1999]

So Peek, is serving to lead the same as submitting? I don't believe it is, but I know if anyone could convince me it's you ;)

[Peek a Boo]

So Peek, is serving to lead the same as submitting? I don't believe it is, but I know if anyone could convince me it's you ;)

 

why wouldn't it be?

 

This goes back to "what is submission"?

 

Submission is serving others; loving another so much that you place their wants and needs above your own.

 

We are called to submit to each other because that is EXACTLY what Christ did.

[kmacnchs]

why wouldn't it be?

 

This goes back to "what is submission"?

 

Submission is serving others; loving another so much that you place their wants and needs above your own.

 

We are called to submit to each other because that is EXACTLY what Christ did.

 

Submitting is giving up what you want for what another wants. Christ did NOT do that. If He had, He would have taken over the city and ruled. That is what His followers wanted Him to do. Instead, He submitted (gave up what He wanted ("not my will but Thy will be done") ) to God.

[Peek a Boo]

Submitting is giving up what you want for what another wants. Christ did NOT do that. If He had, He would have taken over the city and ruled. That is what His followers wanted Him to do. Instead, He submitted (gave up what He wanted ("not my will but Thy will be done") ) to God.

 

 

Submission does NOT require that you don't want to do something.

 

you are assuming above that Christ *wanted* to take over the city and rule.

 

Christ was without sin: he ALWAYS wanted what was in line with God's Will.

 

In the passage you shared above, the key thing that must be remembered is that whatever Christ's own will was, it HAD to be in line w/ what God wanted. Christ is not necessarily saying His will is any different from God's-- he is very clearly placing God at the forefront and giving GOD the glory.

 

If dh and I both want to eat at Pizza Hut, it is factually correct for me to say that i want to eat at Pizza Hut because i value where dh wants to eat. That it happens to be the exact same thing I want is nice, but in phrasing it in the same manner as Christ did above, it shows that i am willing to eat there not just because i like it, but because I am giving deference to dh.

 

Now, as fallen human beings, very often submission includes the sinful selfishness of not wanting to love or submit to another person.

 

But that was not present in sinless Christ.

[lionfamily1999]

why wouldn't it be?

 

This goes back to "what is submission"?

 

Submission is serving others; loving another so much that you place their wants and needs above your own.

 

We are called to submit to each other because that is EXACTLY what Christ did.

I've always thought that when you submit, to God for instance, you are accepting someone's authority over yourself. I see marrital submission as accepting God's authority in my life, God says submit, so I submit.

 

Could you serve without submitting?

 

Lol! This is starting to sound like a paradox wrapped in an enigma :lol:

Submission does NOT require that you don't want to do something.

 

you are assuming above that Christ *wanted* to take over the city and rule.

 

Christ was without sin: he ALWAYS wanted what was in line with God's Will.

 

In the passage you shared above, the key thing that must be remembered is that whatever Christ's own will was, it HAD to be in line w/ what God wanted. Christ is not necessarily saying His will is any different from God's-- he is very clearly placing God at the forefront and giving GOD the glory.

 

If dh and I both want to eat at Pizza Hut, it is factually correct for me to say that i want to eat at Pizza Hut because i value where dh wants to eat. That it happens to be the exact same thing I want is nice, but in phrasing it in the same manner as Christ did above, it shows that i am willing to eat there not just because i like it, but because I am giving deference to dh.

 

Now, as fallen human beings, very often submission includes the sinful selfishness of not wanting to love or submit to another person.

 

But that was not present in sinless Christ.

I wish we had an 'I need to mull this over' smiley.

[kmacnchs]

you are assuming above that Christ *wanted* to take over the city and rule.

 

OBVIOUSLY I did not say what I wanted to say, how I wanted to say it...I was saying that if he submitted to the church (what other posters were saying), that he would have taken over the city b/c that is what His *followers wanted*.

 

He did not - which is my point that He did NOT submit to the church!

 

He DID, however, submit to God - dying on the cross. The quote I gave was from the garden of Gethsemane when he asked the Father to take the cup (the torture He was about to go through) from Him but He was submitting to the *Father's Will* by going to the cross ("not my will but Thy will be done")

 

Does that make it any clearer?

 

And I disagree with your first statement - submitting your will to another does mean that you are doing what they want, not necessarily what you want. That's why submission is done with prayer and sometimes fasting (as other posters have said), it is not easy but it is a command.

 

Submitting is NOT doing whatever you want - then you are just doing whatever you want :D

[LittleIzumi]

(didn't read everything) but the Ephesians 5 scripture states right after the verse about submitting to your husbands (we use King James) :

 

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

 

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

 

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

 

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

 

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

 

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

 

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

 

33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

 

 

So if dh is honoring Christ fully and loving me as much as he loves himself, then I would have no problem reverencing his decisions because he's thinking of what is truly 100% best for me our of the highest level of love imaginable, NOT with any sort of power trip or selfishness whatsoever. It would be about him putting me on the exact same level as himself, and considering what I want and need just as much as what he wants and needs, and then of course he would make decisions that make me happy.

 

As it is, dh is still quite human and has his own struggles, and the last time I asked him if I was submissive he laughed at me. :tongue_smilie:But we both work too, and I actually make the most per hour, eeek ;).

[hsmom23]

So if dh is honoring Christ fully and loving me as much as he loves himself, then I would have no problem reverencing his decisions because he's thinking of what is truly 100% best for me our of the highest level of love imaginable, NOT with any sort of power trip or selfishness whatsoever. It would be about him putting me on the exact same level as himself, and considering what I want and need just as much as what he wants and needs, and then of course he would make decisions that make me happy.

 

 

I think that its easy to follow the command to submit when we know our husbands care about us and are making the right decision, but I dont think we are excused from submitting when we disagree with the decision unless we are disobeying God directly. Jesus calls us to love our enemies, which is obivously harder than loving our family and friends. And we are told to win over our husbands with our submission, I think that no matter what we are prone to think of our selves and Christ wants us to be thinking of the other person. Its not that we forget that the verses on a husbands responsibility are there, its that we should be following our part of these verses totally independently of what our husbands are doing. God will judge us based on us, not based on wether our husband followed his part or not.

[Peek a Boo]

OBVIOUSLY I did not say what I wanted to say, how I wanted to say it...I was saying that if he submitted to the church (what other posters were saying), that he would have taken over the city b/c that is what His *followers wanted*.

 

He did not - which is my point that He did NOT submit to the church!

 

He DID, however, submit to God - dying on the cross. The quote I gave was from the garden of Gethsemane when he asked the Father to take the cup (the torture He was about to go through) from Him but He was submitting to the *Father's Will* by going to the cross ("not my will but Thy will be done")

 

Does that make it any clearer?

 

And I disagree with your first statement - submitting your will to another does mean that you are doing what they want, not necessarily what you want. That's why submission is done with prayer and sometimes fasting (as other posters have said), it is not easy but it is a command.

 

Submitting is NOT doing whatever you want - then you are just doing whatever you want :D

 

:)

 

ok-- first, Christ did submit to the church in a GODLY manner: by serving their GODLY needs. Just as I am not called to submit to my husband if he wants me to have sex w/ another man: I am called to submit in a Godly manner to Godly desires. Christ submitted to the church in a Godly manner.

 

I agree that submitting your will to another does mean that you are doing what they want, not necessarily what you want, I disagree that submission MUST include not wanting to submit.

 

That's why Christ could submit to the Church --in service to them [us]-- because submission for a sinless person is a natural thing to do. It IS His want to submit to God's ideals. He WANTS to submit to those He loves.

 

Note that i did agree that for us-- in a fallen state-- selfish desires often [but not always!] make submission a huge deal that is not easy.

 

We can also spend a lifetime guessing at what "cup" Christ was asking to be taken away: and there is much debate about this. many theologians think it was the known separation from God that Christ was not wanting [now THAT is a Godly desire!!! and one that even God could agree with, i think ;) ]. Christ KNEW that the physical torture and denial by close friends would be NOTHING, but being separated from God for even a second as He took on the Sin of the World and waited for God to accept His Sacrifice would be The Worst.

 

it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.

[Peek a Boo]

I think that its easy to follow the command to submit when we know our husbands care about us and are making the right decision, but I dont think we are excused from submitting when we disagree with the decision unless we are disobeying God directly. Jesus calls us to love our enemies, which is obivously harder than loving our family and friends. And we are told to win over our husbands with our submission, I think that no matter what we are prone to think of our selves and Christ wants us to be thinking of the other person. Its not that we forget that the verses on a husbands responsibility are there, its that we should be following our part of these verses totally independently of what our husbands are doing. God will judge us based on us, not based on wether our husband followed his part or not.

 

I agree. But we are also called to hold each other accountable-- iron sharpens iron--at least, if our husbands are Christians. One verse does not nullify the others: they must be interpreted with equal impact because both concepts are incredibly important.

[Peek a Boo]

I've always thought that when you submit, to God for instance, you are accepting someone's authority over yourself. I see marital submission as accepting God's authority in my life, God says submit, so I submit.

 

Could you serve without submitting?

 

sure you can.

when you serve ONLY when you feel like it. Submission is about demonstrating that another is worth it- not so much about authority.

One doesn't [necessarily] need to set aside their authority to submit to another person.

of course, paul does remind us that our bodies are not our own, but our spouse's.....

 

 

 

 

Lol! This is starting to sound like a paradox wrapped in an enigma :lol:

 

 

We're warned about that pretty clearly in scripture too. :D

[kmacnchs]

I agree that submitting your will to another does mean that you are doing what they want, not necessarily what you want, I disagree that submission MUST include not wanting to submit.

 

 

 

Note that i did agree that for us-- in a fallen state-- selfish desires often [but not always!] make submission a huge deal that is not easy.

 

I think I was mainly saying the part in red and the part below. Though if my dh asks me to go out to eat w/him and I want to anyway, that is not submission - I am just doing what I wanted to do anyway. (This is not the case in our house. The Lord has given me the desire to submit to him w/a happy heart when he wants to go out to eat (I think it is a waste of $$ - we have none). I used to talk back to him and whine about it but now I submit happily. There is a big difference, imo.)

[lionfamily1999]

sure you can.

when you serve ONLY when you feel like it. Submission is about demonstrating that another is worth it- not so much about authority.

One doesn't [necessarily] need to set aside their authority to submit to another person.

of course, paul does remind us that our bodies are not our own, but our spouse's.....

 

 

 

 

We're warned about that pretty clearly in scripture too. :D

Headship:

So, God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of man, and man is the head of woman... God and Christ are the same, right? (not really a question, thinking while I type). Which would mean that Christ submits to God as an equal. Then Christ is the head of man, but Christ is definitly more than man........ augh, you know what? Submitting, just because the Bible tells you too is much easier than trying to understand why ;)

Women's bodies belonging to man:

Women came from man, so our natural position is as a piece of man. Man came from God, so man's natural position is as a part of God (not trying to say men are gods, just that the natural position of them is as a part, sort of like "the body").

Continued reading through 1 Corinthians 11:

And then you get angels wrapped up in this and I end up wondering about unicorns, :lol:...

 

I think this is very much like trying to understand circulation while ignoring all the other intertwined systems. Submitting is just a piece of our life's puzzle and what God has for us. When we cut it out from everything else it's impossible to see how/what it fits, it's just a little chunk of what could be sky, or a sweater, or water, of kitten eyes. It's only when we include it in the rest of the puzzle that it can make any sort of sense.

 

Back to switching dinner assignments... Is there anything Godly about it? Is this just man being stiff-necked and selfish (two very ungodly things, imo)? I'd say things are different with the sleep-over, only in that I could see possibilities where that would be God's Will or of God... but changing the menu? That just seems rude.

[SonshineLearner]

BTW, my son... off of some kids cd he listened to...(which one?) was the one who explained about husbands being leaders, wives obeying their husbands.... children obeying their parents. What cd did I give him?? (Did I say he's SIX!) I added after we all were looking at him, that husbands are to love their wives and Christ loves the church.. :-)

[ereks mom]

Jesus submitted to the Father and to his will (which included the cross), not to the church. There is a huge difference.

 

 

:iagree:

[asta]

(sincerely)

 

Why does anyone need a book to tell them how to relate (or not) to their spouse? Or child. Or boss. Or anyone, for that matter?

 

Perhaps I'm from Mars, but the last time I checked, humans had free will, and that included deciding how they wished to be treated.

 

Regardless of how someone believes humans came to be (because boy, are there several hundred creation stories out there, and they certainly aren't all Christian), I've yet to encounter one wherein "the creator" does not, in the end, set its creation on the planet to be.

 

And yes, I realize this is a thread on "Christian Wife Submission". I still stand by my initial sentence.

 

 

asta

[lionfamily1999]

(sincerely)

 

Why does anyone need a book to tell them how to relate (or not) to their spouse? Or child. Or boss. Or anyone, for that matter?

 

Perhaps I'm from Mars, but the last time I checked, humans had free will, and that included deciding how they wished to be treated.

 

Regardless of how someone believes humans came to be (because boy, are there several hundred creation stories out there, and they certainly aren't all Christian), I've yet to encounter one wherein "the creator" does not, in the end, set its creation on the planet to be.

 

And yes, I realize this is a thread on "Christian Wife Submission". I still stand by my initial sentence.

 

 

asta

For some people, the book they're taking directions from is the word of God.

 

Now, going into heavy CC...

 

God is just, God is fair, God is allknowing, God loves us, God is righteous.

 

If I was going to get an 'instruction manual' for life, then one written by God would be my first choice, seeing as He knows what's been and what will be and I know I can trust Him.

 

That being said, I feel a responsibility to read this 'manual,' because He had it written with me (and everyone else ;) ) in mind.

 

It's sort of like, imo, reading a textbook on math written by an authority on the subject, rather than muddling through and trying to figure it out myself.

[justamouse]

http://www.johndominiccrossan.com/In%20Search%20of%20Paul.htm

 

 

Here is an article that may interest Christians who believe the Bible is Truth but not literal.

 

 

Thank you!