What to do for a child that cannot hold on to grammar concepts and information?

[AprilTN]

I need some help/advice. My dd is 11 years old and in 5th grade. She has always struggled with reading, spelling, and grammar. She has processing issues, and during 4th grade we went through the Wilson reading program with a private tutor. It helped tremendously, and her writing and spelling has improved by leaps and bounds. Wilson seemed to unlock so many things for her.

 

We are getting nowhere in grammar. She can't remember the names of the parts of speech, how to diagram properly, and so on. We did FLL in 1st and 2nd grade. That went fine. I bought FLL3 for 3rd grade, but with her reading issues it was a bust. So I put it away, and later in the year we began Growing with Grammar 3. She finally finished that in 4th grade, and I bought Rod and Staff for 5th grade (bad idea for her). We did fine at first, but as it gets more involved, she can't do it. So I remembered that I had FLL3 and decided to begin that one again.

 

We have been working through lessons 13-17 for the last week or so, and no matter how much we study adjectives, she can't remember the definition, and even after I help her think of the definition, she can't apply it. Here is the conversation we had today with the following sentence:

 

Mandy's horse neighs.

 

Me: What is the adjective?

DD: "Neighs"

Me: Does that tell us what kind, which one, how many, or whose?

DD: No

Me: Is there a word that does tell us one of those things?

DD: "Horse"

Me: Does it tell what kind, which one, how many, or whose?

DD: "Yes, it tells what kind of animal."

Me: No, look at the sentence, and tell me what "Horse" is in the sentence

DD: ----silence----

Me: Who or what is the sentence about? (I was trying to get her to see that Horse was the subject)

DD: MANDY!

 

I told her that we would just finish the lesson on Monday.

 

This type of mix up occurs for most lessons. When she gets it right, she is unsure and I feel like she is just guessing correctly, that she doesn't really understand.

 

Is there a curriculum for a child that just CAN'T GET GRAMMAR?

 

I'm seriously fighting back the tears over this one.

[MIch elle]

DO the flash card ALOUD everyday until memorized! We did this for YEARS (still do it for - gerunds, participles, etc.). If you're using R&S English make & study the flash cards for that chapter of ALL the important terms (subject, predicate, parts of speech, do, io, pn, etc) as they are taught in R&S. Review weekly once they are memorized.

 

Watch Schoolhouse Rock Grammar Rock on Youtube and have her sing the tunes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYzGLzFuwxI

 

BUT she MUST be able to identify nouns and pronouns BEFORE (memorize definition from flash card) she understands adjectives.

[Denisemomof4]

well, my choice would be R&S because of the oral review before the lesson, but that was a bust for you.

 

Are you doing grammar consistently? Every day?

 

Do you think School House Rock would help?

[radiobrain]

Why not do tons of mad libs? You can also write your own that can cover more kinds of words and grammar concepts w/o spending much $$ at all, and help with exactly what you want.

 

my piddly .02$

 

k

Edited February 5, 2010 by radiobrain
i am dumb today

[JudoMom]

I need some help/advice. My dd is 11 years old and in 5th grade. She has always struggled with reading, spelling, and grammar. She has processing issues, and during 4th grade we went through the Wilson reading program with a private tutor. It helped tremendously, and her writing and spelling has improved by leaps and bounds. Wilson seemed to unlock so many things for her.

 

We are getting nowhere in grammar. She can't remember the names of the parts of speech, how to diagram properly, and so on. We did FLL in 1st and 2nd grade. That went fine. I bought FLL3 for 3rd grade, but with her reading issues it was a bust. So I put it away, and later in the year we began Growing with Grammar 3. She finally finished that in 4th grade, and I bought Rod and Staff for 5th grade (bad idea for her). We did fine at first, but as it gets more involved, she can't do it. So I remembered that I had FLL3 and decided to begin that one again.

 

We have been working through lessons 13-17 for the last week or so, and no matter how much we study adjectives, she can't remember the definition, and even after I help her think of the definition, she can't apply it. Here is the conversation we had today with the following sentence:

 

Mandy's horse neighs.

 

Me: What is the adjective?

DD: "Neighs"

Me: Does that tell us what kind, which one, how many, or whose?

DD: No

Me: Is there a word that does tell us one of those things?

DD: "Horse"

Me: Does it tell what kind, which one, how many, or whose?

DD: "Yes, it tells what kind of animal."

Me: No, look at the sentence, and tell me what "Horse" is in the sentence

DD: ----silence----

Me: Who or what is the sentence about? (I was trying to get her to see that Horse was the subject)

DD: MANDY!

 

I told her that we would just finish the lesson on Monday.

 

This type of mix up occurs for most lessons. When she gets it right, she is unsure and I feel like she is just guessing correctly, that she doesn't really understand.

 

Is there a curriculum for a child that just CAN'T GET GRAMMAR?

 

I'm seriously fighting back the tears over this one.

 

What level R&S did you buy? If you were in 5, could you go back to an earlier level (like 3 or 4)?

 

Have you looked at Hake Grammar? It is an incremental approach, so there is a lot of built in review.

[Snickerdoodle]

Was your daughter able to first identify that this was indeed a complete sentence?

 

Was she able to pick out the correct subject and predicate of the sentence?

 

After picking out the correct subject and predicate she should then be able to look for words that modify the subject and/or predicate.

 

 

Or, is the lesson to read the sentence and then to just pick out the adjective? Is your daughter familiar with the concept of possessive nouns acting as adjectives? I'm not familiar with the program you are using.

[Halcyon]

I would play games with her to identify parts of speech. For example, demonstrate "fierce" by pretending to be a lion and growling. Then demonstrate "slow" by walking slowly around the room...

 

For nouns, you could physically pick up a BOOK. Throw a BALL, asking "what am I throwing?" Draw a picture and ask "what THING am I drawing with?" Then ask "can you describe this thing to me?" (hopefully, she'll say "red!" or "purple!" and explain that that's an adjective...)

 

For verbs, you could run around the room "RUN". You could both pretend to "sleep".

 

You get my drift. It sounds like being more physical in how you demonstrate might help.

[Alenee]

Yes there is a program! Shurley English sounds like a perfect fit for your dd. There are songs to memorize what each part of speech does called jingles. It sounds like maybe she would do well with this auditory reinforcement. Every concept comes in very small increments and builds with constant review. R & S comes highly recommended however Shurley does too and there is a big difference in how the concepts are taught.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Alenee

[SonshineLearner]

Yes there is a program! Shurley English sounds like a perfect fit for your dd. There are songs to memorize what each part of speech does called jingles. It sounds like maybe she would do well with this auditory reinforcement. Every concept comes in very small increments and builds with constant review. R & S comes highly recommended however Shurley does too but there is a big difference in how the concepts are taught.

 

:iagree: I was already thinking this. Also, I would pick ONE definition set for her. In other words, Shurley or School House Rock. We haven't had a problem doing many.... but when you have a problem with something, I believe Streamlining is best. :-)

[Catherine]

He is not a dumb kid but he just doesn't get so much of what we try to do. Those kind of "out of left field" answers, and seeming total lack of understanding, is so like him.

 

I wish I had some answers for you. I've used FLL with him, but much more slowly, and with more repetition and support than is built in (which I know sounds crazy because there is a LOT of repetition and support built into FLL!).

[LND1218]

My dd is 11 years old and in 5th grade.

 

We are getting nowhere in grammar. She can't remember the names of the parts of speech, how to diagram properly, and so on.

 

We have been working through lessons 13-17 for the last week or so, and no matter how much we study adjectives, she can't remember the definition, and even after I help her think of the definition, she can't apply it.

Is there a curriculum for a child that just CAN'T GET GRAMMAR?

 

I'm seriously fighting back the tears over this one.

 

Well first off she's "grammar" stage. And in the grammar stage of classical education she should be memorizing these things. She really isn't ready to remember how to apply it (some kids get it early) because that is a dialectic and in some cases a rhetorical skill.

 

She hasn't mastered the grammar of it - she doesn't have it memorized. Of course, she doesn't understand it and can't apply it because she hasn't completed the first step of memorizing it. The grammar of English grammar must come first then the dialectic and rhetoric of the English language.

 

I second the Shurley recommendation - I love Growing with Grammar! But they need to memorize! And those questions and answers help a lot. We do Essentials in Classical Conversations and it is similar to Shurley.

 

We do Shurley before we do Essentials. And we supplement with Gw/G.

 

First you memorize things then you use Questions and Answers to parse a sentence.

 

So with this:

 

Mandy's horse neighs. (I agree this is a confusing sentence - because Mandy "feels" like the subject.)

 

With our program (Essentials) the Q&A would go like this:

What is being said about Mandy's horse? "neighs" (verb)

What neighs? Horse (subject noun)

Whose horse neighs? Mandy's (adjective)

 

Shurley's is a just a hair different but very similar.

 

We do this over and over and over and over. The don't just get it in the grammar stage unless they are really gifted with language. I have a daughter who is also 11. She loves English and Latin grammar and some days she still confuses things because she isn't dialectic. It will come!

 

Being able to understand is dialectic and applying well that's rhetorical. So cut her some slack and just keep doing it over and over and over. And she will get it.

 

Okay in rereading this - yikes the mistakes abound - I can't type! Nothing like typos and grammar mistakes in a grammar post....

Working on the mistakes as I have time. And I wasn't classically educated - obviously. ;)

Edited February 5, 2010 by Steph

[lionfamily1999]

Just from your example, I'm curious, did you find the verb first? Ds can break a sentence down much easier if we start with the verb. From there, what neighs and is there anything describing that are much easier to answer. hth, I know it's not much.

[Charles Wallace]

I need some help/advice. My dd is 11 years old and in 5th grade. She has always struggled with reading, spelling, and grammar. She has processing issues, and during 4th grade we went through the Wilson reading program with a private tutor. It helped tremendously, and her writing and spelling has improved by leaps and bounds. Wilson seemed to unlock so many things for her.

 

We are getting nowhere in grammar. She can't remember the names of the parts of speech, how to diagram properly, and so on. We did FLL in 1st and 2nd grade. That went fine. I bought FLL3 for 3rd grade, but with her reading issues it was a bust. So I put it away, and later in the year we began Growing with Grammar 3. She finally finished that in 4th grade, and I bought Rod and Staff for 5th grade (bad idea for her). We did fine at first, but as it gets more involved, she can't do it. So I remembered that I had FLL3 and decided to begin that one again.

 

We have been working through lessons 13-17 for the last week or so, and no matter how much we study adjectives, she can't remember the definition, and even after I help her think of the definition, she can't apply it. Here is the conversation we had today with the following sentence:

 

Mandy's horse neighs.

 

Me: What is the adjective?

DD: "Neighs"

Me: Does that tell us what kind, which one, how many, or whose?

DD: No

Me: Is there a word that does tell us one of those things?

DD: "Horse"

Me: Does it tell what kind, which one, how many, or whose?

DD: "Yes, it tells what kind of animal."

Me: No, look at the sentence, and tell me what "Horse" is in the sentence

DD: ----silence----

Me: Who or what is the sentence about? (I was trying to get her to see that Horse was the subject)

DD: MANDY!

 

Possibly try this:

 

1. Work with VERY simple sentences. FIND THE VERB FIRST. Trying to find the subject is harder!!

 

"Is this an action you can do?" is not a perfect question (it doesn't catch verbs of being, obviously), but it helps as a basic starting point.

 

"Can you say, "She X's today? Tomorrow?" (This helps to define the difference between a word like sing, which makes sense in the context of "She sings today," and a word like horse, which would sound odd.)

 

2. Then ask, "Who does the verb? Who performs the action?"

 

 

I would work a lot on just plain subjects and verbs, then move up to compound subjects (e.g., "Jon and Bill go to the store"), then compound verbs ("Jon bought and ate three cookies") and then both, and so on.

 

Another tip: Make the sentences funny. "Mike toots" is infinitely better than "Mike sleeps." "The gargoyle lurked" is better than "The dog slept."

[Charles Wallace]

I think that that is a particularly confusing sentence.

 

Just looking at it, I would think that there is no adjective. I would say "neighs" is a verb. Mandy's horse is the subject, neighs is the predicate. Therefore it should be a verb.

 

I sure hope I am not wrong, but that is what I think.

 

 

Why not do tons of mad libs? You can also write your own that can cover more kinds of words and grammar concepts w/o spending much $$ at all, and help with exactly what you want.

 

my piddly .02$

 

k

 

Because the word "Mandy's" describes whose horse it is and therefore limits it (that is, we're not talking about every horse, but only Mandy's), it's an adjective. Hope that helps.

[radiobrain]

Because the word "Mandy's" describes whose horse it is and therefore limits it (that is, we're not talking about every horse, but only Mandy's), it's an adjective. Hope that helps.

 

I was mis-reading the conversation between mother and daughter and I thought that the book (or mother) was saying that 'neighs' was the adjective. That's what I get for skimming... :001_unsure: That's why I felt weird about posting it.

 

DOH!

 

:tongue_smilie:

[Terabith]

Okay, probably the wrong answer BUT....

 

given those circumstances, I would work on teaching her "functional grammar." I'd work a lot on capitalization and punctuation, and writing skills. I was an English major, and I'm something of a grammar freak, but honestly, in the priorities of life, I'd want to know she could use the grammar she needs for speaking and writing, rather than diagramming.