Math question for 1st grader

[TheCoffeeChick]

I need the hive's opinions on a math curriculum problem I am having ...

 

Here is the background, my ds used Saxon 1 last year for Kindergarten. I thought it went well. I liked the program. I love Saxon. But, alas, I am finding that my ds cannot, no matter how hard we try, retain what he is learning in math. Example, we were doing a review lesson yesterday in Saxon 2 that was going over 1 more and 1 less. Fairly simple stuff we learned WAY back in the beginning of Saxon 1. But it was like I was speaking a whole different language to him!?!?! He had no idea that adding one meant counting forward one and subtracting one was counting back one.

 

*Deep Breath*

 

I love math, I get it. Always have. I'm thinking ds may not be that way. ;) I am totally okay with that and after talking it over with dh and lots of prayers for guidance, we've decided to go back to a 1st grade curriculum (which is how old ds is anyways). I would rather ds be solid and go over things he may already know than keep on trucking and have math be tears and frustration. But, I don't want to use Saxon 1 all over again because I don't want him to know we are going back. I've been looking through all the past threads on math, but am getting no where close to an answer.

 

Any suggetions on which curriculum to change to?

 

Ds may have to go into ps for a few years starting next year, so I'd like something more on the traditional scope and sequence. MUS does not appeal to me (sorry MUS lovers ;)). I was looking more at Singapore and CLE.

 

Anyone have any ideas as to whether it would be better to do one over the other for ds since he is doing 1st over again?

 

Thanks everyone.

Edited August 12, 2009 by BramFam
spelling errors :)

[johnandtinagilbert]

In his case, it may simply timing. One year can make all the difference in the world for a student, particularly wiggly boys. Our K year was not that impressive, our 1st grade year, outstanding!

 

In ps it is likely he'll use something very Saxonlike, so perhaps you can contact the school and see what they use.

 

On the other hand, perhaps he's needs a mastery approach and less spiraling.

 

I'd suggest 2 things:

Continue with Saxon and add MUS for mastery. Rotate them in your schedule.

 

OR just play games, games, games to initiate the practice he may need.

 

Singapore is wonderful. I've used it always and have produced math kids, save one who is just never gonna be a math superstar. If you decide on Singapore, just make sure you use manipulatives and add some sort of drill practice for facts...you'll need it, particularly with his entrance to ps.

[JudoMom]

I need the hive's opinions on a math curriculum problem I am having ...

 

Here is the background, my ds used Saxon 1 last year for Kindergarten. I thought it went well. I liked the program. I love Saxon. But, alas, I am finding that my ds cannot, no matter how hard we try, retain what he is learning in math. Example, we were doing a review lesson yesterday in Saxon 2 that was going over 1 more and 1 less. Fairly simple stuff we learned WAY back in the beginning of Saxon 1. But it was like I was speaking a whole different language to him!?!?! He had no idea that adding one meant counting forward one and subtracting one was counting back one.

 

*Deep Breath*

 

I love math, I get it. Always have. I'm thinking ds may not be that way. ;) I am totally okay with that and after talking it over with dh and lots of prayers for guidance, we've decided to go back to a 1st grade curriculum (which is how old ds is anyways). I would rather ds be solid and go over things he may already know than keep on trucking and have math be tears and frustration. But, I don't want to use Saxon 1 all over again because I don't want him to know we are going back. I've been looking through all the past threads on math, but am getting no where close to an answer.

 

Any suggetions on which curriculum to change to?

 

Ds may have to go into ps for a few years starting next year, so I'd like something more on the traditional scope and sequence. MUS does not appeal to me (sorry MUS lovers ;)). I was looking more at Singapore and CLE.

 

Anyone have any ideas as to whether it would be better to do one over the other for ds since he is doing 1st over again?

 

Thanks everyone.

 

Was this a problem you had last year? Have you just started up after a break?

 

If this wasn't a problem last year, and if you've just started up after a break, I would give Saxon more time. Kids have bad brain days, especially after a break. The scenario you described has happened on more than one occasion here, and while it's enough to make me want to beat my head against the wall, they eventually do remember and take steps forward.

[Ummto4]

I don't know whether this is possible with Saxon. But, my boy had the same difficulty to go from addition to subtraction (and a plethora of other concepts, I must say).

 

Since I used math mammoth, I skipped the subtraction chapter, and moved to other chapters, like geometry, clock, money and place value. Every month, I revisited subtraction chapter. Then suddenly, on March last year, it clicked. He was 7 years 2 months at that time when it clicked. Math Mammoth is mastery program, so I can skip chapters and even within a chapter I can pick and choose problems easily.

 

My advice is to wait for a month, and try again every month for 1 day or so. Last year I did this all the time with my boy with a lot of concepts. By the end of the year, he has covered all his first grade math and some. When the boy is ready, it should only took a day or two at the most to understand.

 

E.g. he was having difficult in reading 4 digit number on Nov ... I decided to shelf it, and tried again the next month. Still didn't click. Suddenly on Feb, it clicked and the lesson was over in 10 minutes. I've experienced this all the time with my boy, so now, having acquired this wisdom :tongue_smilie:, I won't spend time dwelling on things he's not ready for. It's just going to waste our time and patience.

[K&Rs Mom]

One of the things I like best about Miquon is that they have to figure it out themselves, using manipulatives. So they really understand what they're doing, not just spouting back the facts. The sequence is definitely a little different than outschools, but it would just put him ahead if he has already been introduced to multiplication & fractions before he starts. Plus the first book (first semester of first grade) starts with counting, so it can be a confidence-builder if he's a little intimidated by math. And it's cheap - you can get the TM used for under $10, and the workbooks are around $6 at Rainbow. The most expensive thing is the Cuisenaire rods, but sometimes you can get lucky and find them used or on sale. Even at full price, you're looking at less than $40 startup cost, and future years you only need the workbooks (2 per year).

[Mandy in TN]

Any suggetions on which curriculum to change to?

 

Ds may have to go into ps for a few years starting next year, so I'd like something more on the traditional scope and sequence. MUS does not appeal to me (sorry MUS lovers ;)). I was looking more at Singapore and CLE.

JMHO- Singapore will not follow a traditional S&S and CLE is a lot like Saxon. Have you looked at BJUP? I have not used it, but I understand that it is similar conceptually to Singapore. BJUP is a well-respected curriculum that should lend itself well to moving a child into a traditional classroom.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[TheCoffeeChick]

Was this a problem you had last year? Have you just started up after a break?

 

If this wasn't a problem last year, and if you've just started up after a break, I would give Saxon more time. Kids have bad brain days, especially after a break. The scenario you described has happened on more than one occasion here, and while it's enough to make me want to beat my head against the wall, they eventually do remember and take steps forward.

 

 

He did have a little problem last year remembering the facts, as we worked on them he'd memorize some of them. But the thing that worries me is that he just doesn't get that adding is just simply counting forward!?! He is great at memorizing things, so as we go over math facts, he'll have them memorized, but then because Saxon is spiral, we wouldn't go over them for a couple days and he'd get that look on his face like he's never seen 8 + 2 and how in the world could he possibly know that! :confused: :tongue_smilie:

 

It might just be that we are getting back from a summer break and he's trying to get into the groove again. But I take out the Saxon book and ds automatically starts with the "Math, I hate math" whining. He's 6 -- I don't want him to already not like something (especially something like math that he'll have to do the rest of his life!!).

 

I'm just a little frustrated right now I guess. I don't want to push him to do something he can't do yet. I am totally okay with going back and doing 1st grade curriculum again.

 

I'm all ears for more advice - suggestions - anything. :bigear:

[Chris in VA]

I love Saxon--have to say that upfront! First question--Are you doing the meeting as Saxon says to? That seems to solve a lot of problems.

 

Perhaps he needs to see more concepts visually. I think taking some time to play lots and lots of games, using all kinds of manipulatives, could help solidify concepts like you are asking him for. One fun game ds used in ps was "10 pieces of food." This was a classroom, so it's a little harder to recreate, but you could play and add a stuffed animal as a "third" classmate. Using 10 different kinds of foods (Skittles, Cheerios, raisins, nuts, etc.), pass them around in different quantities, and then count everyone's pile each time. You can make up some index cards with directions, if you want--"Pass 2 pieces to the right," "Pass half your pieces to the left," etc. Only play about 5 rounds at first, esp if he has to count more than his pile. (Then eat the pile, and Teddy's, too! lol) Lots of practice seeing quantities accrue and diminish will help him get the relationship between counting and the functions of addition and subtraction.

 

Use of a number line may help, too--you can make it more concrete by lining up stuffies or cars or other toys and put the number line in front of them (I'm thinking using a piece of long, narrow paper on the floor here). Have the stuffies visit each other--"Let's have Kitty visit Teddy. Kitty lives at 5 House. Teddy lives at 2 House. How many jumps does Kitty need to make to get to Teddy's?" You get the drill. You can have the number line in chalk outside and have him jump or hop to numbers, progressing to holding up cards with equations on them and having him act them out. Just using his body may help get the concept into his head.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Chris in VA

[Aletheia Academy]

I know this may sound strange...but have you considered trying a more traditional curriculum like R&S? My ds is loving MUS, but I know it won't work for my daughter-swhe will not connect with the manipulatives. R&S has a very gentle beginning and a very incremental scope and sequence. It is a solid program, it's inexpensive, and you can always add manipulatives if your ds likes that.

 

But I also agree with what pp's have said re: taking a break for a few weeks and coming back to the same concept. I have definitely experienced that with my ds, too.

 

In the end, you do know your ds best. Just be very sensitive to the "clues" he is providing.

[Devotional Soul]

How about McRuffy Math? It's been called 'Happy Saxon', has lots of fun games and constant review, and is aligned with national standards.

[Haiku]

If your ds doesn't get what adding is, then he doesn't understand how numbers work. RightStart is an excellent program that starts off teaching kids what numbers really are and how they work together, not just how to manipulate numbers.

 

Tara

[TheCoffeeChick]

JMHO- Singapore will not follow a traditional S&S and CLE is a lot like Saxon. Have you looked at BJUP? I have not used it, but I understand that it is similar conceptually to Singapore. BJUP is a well-respected curriculum that should lend itself well to moving a child into a traditional classroom.

 

HTH-

Mandy

 

 

In what way does Singapore not follow a traditional S&S? I've not actually held one in my hand, so I don't know much about it besides what I've read in a few posts here. :bigear:

[Tidbits of Learning]

Just looking at the fact that your son may have to go into public school next year, I would try to get something that is similar to the math that public school uses. Having had children in the public school system, it really is easier for them to jump into the public school math if they are using something similar or vice versa. We went with Singapore this year after public school for 3 years and well...I wish I would have went with something more traditional b/c they know they are doing last years work again and well they did know how to do it the public school way just not singapore's method so I wish I wouldn't have went with something so different.

Most public schools use Houghton Mifflin or Scott Foresman. Some use Harcourt...You can get Scott Foresman/Addison Wesley with a teacher's guide/key for fairly reasonable on Hewitt's site.

http://hewitthomeschooling.com/book/bsingle.asp?i=3289

http://hewitthomeschooling.com/book/bsingle.asp?i=3315

Anyway, if I knew that there was the possibility of public school in the very near future, then I would go with a more traditional approach and call the local public school and see what they use as well. Houghton Mifflin and Scott Foresman/Addison Wesley are so simliar in approach that if your school uses either one I would recommend getting this math from Hewitt.

[Susie in MS]

"...he'll have them memorized, but then because Saxon is spiral, we wouldn't go over them for a couple days and he'd get that look on his face like he's never seen 8 + 2 and how in the world could he possibly know that! :confused: :tongue_smilie:"

 

Because of this I would recommend Rod and Staff.

[Mandy in TN]

In what way does Singapore not follow a traditional S&S? I've not actually held one in my hand, so I don't know much about it besides what I've read in a few posts here. :bigear:

 

Perhaps scope and sequence isn't the correct way of putting it. Although there are some things like negative numbers that are covered in say Saxon, but not in Singapore PM. The main thing is that it is just taught differently. Singapore PM will not contain the drill that is in most American programs, but it will contain more conceptual work and more difficult word problems. It is just a different animal and therefore wouldn't be my pick to use with a child who I planned to send to ps.

 

I hope that helps and I hope that someone who is better at these explanations will chime in-

Mandy

[TheCoffeeChick]

Okay -- I think I'm going to order R&S -- it looks like it makes sure the facts are memorized without jumping around. Maybe that is what is confusing ds. :001_huh:

 

Plus it's dirt cheap and if it doesn't seem like it is for us I won't feel so bad. :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm considering supplementing with Miquon -- is this doable or too much?

 

Paperbackswap has the Lab Sheet Annotations, the Teacher Notes, and the First Grade diary, so that would be free.

[ElizabethB]

My daughter forgot a lot of math last summer.

 

This summer we've done a little bit of RS math games, we need to ramp up a bit more, the move took more time than I had hoped, it takes longer to move into a smaller place, I had forgotten that. (I try not to think too much about moving if I can avoid it, anyway.) In fact, we still have a few boxes left.

 

Anyway, she really is learning a lot more with Singapore. The standards edition lines up better with a traditional school scope and sequence. It really helps her understand math better and think in a more mathematical way.

 

I think it is good that it teaches differently than the way that math is taught in most schools--it really seems to be a better way to teach to me.

 

You could continue to afterschool a bit with Singapore once he enters school next year if it works out well for him.

[thowell]

you could supplement with MEP. It is mental math and it's free. My girls are loving it!!

 

http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mep/default.htm

[Mandy in TN]

Okay -- I think I'm going to order R&S -- it looks like it makes sure the facts are memorized without jumping around. Maybe that is what is confusing ds. :001_huh:

 

Plus it's dirt cheap and if it doesn't seem like it is for us I won't feel so bad. :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm considering supplementing with Miquon -- is this doable or too much?

 

Paperbackswap has the Lab Sheet Annotations, the Teacher Notes, and the First Grade diary, so that would be free.

 

Sounds like a plan!

Glad you found something that you feel will work!

Mandy

[daybreaking]

Okay -- I think I'm going to order R&S -- it looks like it makes sure the facts are memorized without jumping around. Maybe that is what is confusing ds. :001_huh:

 

Plus it's dirt cheap and if it doesn't seem like it is for us I won't feel so bad. :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm considering supplementing with Miquon -- is this doable or too much?

 

Paperbackswap has the Lab Sheet Annotations, the Teacher Notes, and the First Grade diary, so that would be free.

 

We were in a very similar boat to yours, with my son also struggling with the +1 or -1 facts, despite being very bright in math. Though we had gone through all of Saxon 1 and almost 1/2 of Saxon 2, we switched to R&S, starting with the beginning of the 1st grade book. My son had tested several grades above level in math, but I knew he didn't know the facts the way I felt he should. I'm so glad we found R&S! It definitely solidifies the facts and is very thorough. I did, however, find that it is very important to do all of the activities in the TE. For us, the combination of the worksheets, blacklines, flash cards and TE activities provided just the amount of drill DS needed.

 

I do supplement with Saxon, mainly by having DS do any problems that are different than R&S. I also supplement with Singapore, for the extra thinking skills. (My son loves math, so he eats this all up. Not all children would, however.)

[TheCoffeeChick]

We were in a very similar boat to yours, with my son also struggling with the +1 or -1 facts, despite being very bright in math. Though we had gone through all of Saxon 1 and almost 1/2 of Saxon 2, we switched to R&S, starting with the beginning of the 1st grade book. My son had tested several grades above level in math, but I knew he didn't know the facts the way I felt he should. I'm so glad we found R&S! It definitely solidifies the facts and is very thorough. I did, however, find that it is very important to do all of the activities in the TE. For us, the combination of the worksheets, blacklines, flash cards and TE activities provided just the amount of drill DS needed.

 

Thank you for sharing this. I will make sure to do the TE activities. How do you supplement with Saxon? I do have all the Saxon 2 materials -- could I use those? (I'm not yet sure about supplementing with Miquon.) Thanks.

[homeschool68]

My oldest didn't do well with MUS. My youngest tried Singapore math and Saxon last year in 1st and didn't do well. I thought Singapore was boring the way it is presented. I'm like my DD, I like a lot of color on the pages of any book we use.

 

This year we are using a combination of Horizon's Math and Evan-Moor Daily Math workbooks. She loves both of these. I switch her back and forth between the two so she doesn't get bored. She is like her big brother and isn't too fond of math. ;)

[daybreaking]

Thank you for sharing this. I will make sure to do the TE activities. How do you supplement with Saxon? I do have all the Saxon 2 materials -- could I use those? (I'm not yet sure about supplementing with Miquon.) Thanks.

 

It took me awhile to find the perfect system (and it's still not completely perfect!), but what works for us is to allow an hour a day for math. One of the half hours is simply my working with my son, going through the activities in the TE, doing flash cards, doing speed drills and having DS do any blacklines I think are important for that day. I'll also do a little of the Saxon meeting, if time permits. The other half hour is him working independently on the worksheets. He is able to complete the R&S in about 15 minutes, so that gives him 15 more for Saxon. Basically, I'll cross off anything on the Saxon worksheet that is a repetition of R&S, such as practice with math facts, adding two digit numbers, money, etc., and he'll do the rest. (He rarely does the back side of Saxon - only if he missed something on the front or if there is something completely different on the back.) Part of why I do both is I wasn't quite ready to completely give up Saxon. Doing it the way we do allows DS to get in calendar skills, drawing line segments, working with a hundred number board, sequences, Venn Diagrams, etc., while not overkilling math. DS looks at the extra skills we do on Saxon as "fun math," so it has worked well for us.

 

I don't try to match up R&S and Saxon, we just do whatever lesson is next in either. Since I was partway through Saxon 2 when we started with R&S 1, after an adjustment period of getting acquainted with R&S, I simply used the two together. Since R&S is our core program, I always make sure that is done and then if we don't get to Saxon on a given day, that is fine, we just do it the next day. Currently, we're doing R&S 2, while finishing up Saxon 2.

 

We school year round (lighter in the summer), so we supplement with Singapore (and some R&S blacklines) when we're taking breaks from R&S or Saxon. At one point I tried to do an exercise a day of Singapore, on top of the other, but it was way too much. Doing it at alternate times has worked much better. I'm not sure I'm going to continue using Singapore as a supplement, but for now, DS likes it and I have it. As a side note, I have had the Miquon Annotations and the Red and Orange books for several years and have never cracked them! I'm much more a R&S type of gal! :-)

 

If you have any more questions, please ask!

[TheCoffeeChick]

It took me awhile to find the perfect system (and it's still not completely perfect!), but what works for us is to allow an hour a day for math. One of the half hours is simply my working with my son, going through the activities in the TE, doing flash cards, doing speed drills and having DS do any blacklines I think are important for that day. I'll also do a little of the Saxon meeting, if time permits. The other half hour is him working independently on the worksheets. He is able to complete the R&S in about 15 minutes, so that gives him 15 more for Saxon. Basically, I'll cross off anything on the Saxon worksheet that is a repetition of R&S, such as practice with math facts, adding two digit numbers, money, etc., and he'll do the rest. (He rarely does the back side of Saxon - only if he missed something on the front or if there is something completely different on the back.) Part of why I do both is I wasn't quite ready to completely give up Saxon. Doing it the way we do allows DS to get in calendar skills, drawing line segments, working with a hundred number board, sequences, Venn Diagrams, etc., while not overkilling math. DS looks at the extra skills we do on Saxon as "fun math," so it has worked well for us.

 

I don't try to match up R&S and Saxon, we just do whatever lesson is next in either. Since I was partway through Saxon 2 when we started with R&S 1, after an adjustment period of getting acquainted with R&S, I simply used the two together. Since R&S is our core program, I always make sure that is done and then if we don't get to Saxon on a given day, that is fine, we just do it the next day. Currently, we're doing R&S 2, while finishing up Saxon 2.

 

We school year round (lighter in the summer), so we supplement with Singapore (and some R&S blacklines) when we're taking breaks from R&S or Saxon. At one point I tried to do an exercise a day of Singapore, on top of the other, but it was way too much. Doing it at alternate times has worked much better. I'm not sure I'm going to continue using Singapore as a supplement, but for now, DS likes it and I have it. As a side note, I have had the Miquon Annotations and the Red and Orange books for several years and have never cracked them! I'm much more a R&S type of gal! :-)

 

If you have any more questions, please ask!

 

 

You've been very helpful, thank you! :001_smile: We are sticking with just playing games with the math manipulatives for our math lessons right now until R&S comes in the mail (ordered it this morning). When it gets here, we'll take a couple weeks to get ds used to R&S, then insert some of Saxon back in. Thanks for a look into your routine -- I think it just may work for us too!

[skaterbabs]

I would say do CLE. The material is EXCELLENT, it builds on itself and there is a lot of review for those who need it. Plus, the price is NOT so high that you feel like you have to spend a lot of money for another math program.

[daybreaking]

You've been very helpful, thank you! :001_smile:

 

I'm glad I could be of help! I thought I'd also mention that we skipped the first few lessons in R&S, as they were just learning the numbers 1-10. I started with the "fact houses" and went from there. I went ahead and had my son start with the 1 houses, even though it was obviously way beneath him. I explained to him that it was just to get him used to the new book and how to do the houses. Surprisingly, he didn't seem to mind and soon we were on more challenging work. At first, he didn't understand why he needed to fill in the same fact houses day after day, but I explained to him that it was like road construction ... the repetition made the facts stick like concrete, rather than sand. He liked that and when he started getting faster and faster with the houses, he really enjoyed them.

[redheadeddaughter]

They seem to me to be dramatically different. I'm not a math kind of person. But my son LOVES math. Still, he struggled a bit with the plus one minus one stuff also, which I found weird given his success earlier in the year. Over the summer we've done a little bit of Horizons 1 (skipped some of the early stuff, which you could also do, having already done Saxon 1 if you want) and it has proven to be great for building confidence. And it's EASY for me to just open and go using Horizons as a supplemental program (I wouldn't do that if it were my core program obviously). The combination has been great for us and might enable you to use your Saxon 2 this year also. Just an idea. :)