CC: What to tell someone who . . .

[eaglei]

is struggling with their Christian walk - struggling in two ways: 1) knowing (or being at peace) that they actually ARE a Christian (they've prayed and prayed and PRAYED!); and, 2) feel they must not really be a Christian because of difficulty walking the walk all.the.time, as in every single second. This person sets very high standards and I think maybe those standards are bordering on legalism and getting in the way . . . As I seem to be the one this person is confiding in, and since I am just plain out of knowing what to say or what other scriptures to give --- I am asking the Hive for suggestions --- and also prayer that, not only will I know how to help this person, but also that this person will receive what is needed to gain victory.

 

THANK YOU!

[bairnmama]

Since you didn't mention what verses you have already shared... I'll share my favorites on these subjects.

 

1) knowing (or being at peace) that they actually ARE a Christian (they've prayed and prayed and PRAYED!);

 

Personally I like the writings of Paul for absolutely KNOWING you're saved... specifically "I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor any powers, neither height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39.

And also, "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." Romans 10:11-12. I take this to mean that salvation comes immediately after you verbally agree with God that Jesus is alive and rules over all. And also, this faith will be evident in your words and daily life because in the book of Matthew, Jesus tells us that the mouth speaks out of the abundance of the heart. If this person has this belief as well, I can see where they might struggle with issue #2... but there is a difference between simply stumbling for a time and outright rejecting Jesus as Savior!

 

 

and, 2) feel they must not really be a Christian because of difficulty walking the walk all.the.time, as in every single second. This person sets very high standards and I think maybe those standards are bordering on legalism and getting in the way . . .

Paul has some good words to share about this, too. Romans 7:14-25 is too long to quote here, but is a good passage to read. It details how Paul struggles with desiring to do good, but not doing it; and yet does what he hates. I don't think that anyone could say that Paul was not saved, so if he struggled from time to time why wouldn't we? Even though saved, we will still struggle with our sin nature until Christ returns. That doesn't mean we aren't truely saved... just that we are human. I believe that is why in The Lord's Prayer Jesus prays "forgive us our sins...". He definately had no sins to ask forgiveness for but was modeling for us. We WILL sin, and need to ask for forgiveness.

 

 

As I seem to be the one this person is confiding in, and since I am just plain out of knowing what to say or what other scriptures to give --- I am asking the Hive for suggestions --- and also prayer that, not only will I know how to help this person, but also that this person will receive what is needed to gain victory.

 

THANK YOU!

 

I've known people who struggle like this as well and have come to the conclusion that they are searching for a "feeling" of being saved. Like there should be some kind of electric pulse or something to where you just feel different. If this person is a new Christian, you could point out that they are just beginning their walk and those daily struggles will become less and less as they learn and grow in Christ. We don't expect babies to run as soon as they learn to stand. We guide them, hold their hands and give support where it is needed, and pick them up and comfort them when they fall. We should do the same with "babes in Christ".

[Rosie_0801]

It doesn't matter which spiritual path you take, you will find it difficult to live up to it 100% of the time because religion is supposed to inspire us by showing the ideal path, and we're moody humans who can't be on our best behaviour all the time. Not even the more good natured among us :)

Maybe your friend needs to look at each of the rules they have taken on board and do a thorough assessment of them. Some rules are not supposed to be followed 100% of the time. How does each rule work for her? (assuming she's a her :) ) What is the purpose for that rule, according to anyone who wants to give an opinion, and what does your friend think of those opinions? Which interpretation guides her best towards being the type of person she wants to be? She might not come out with the same answers as everyone else she knows, but that doesn't mean she isnt' Christian. It means she's not their kind of Christian, but that's ok because her faith is between her and God, and the two of them will get it sorted out between them.

 

Rosie

[Wee Pip]

I've struggled with this as a perfectionist and as someone that hears the same thing over & over at church each week. I'm a Protestant (i.e., non Catholic or Orthodox) but one of the problems I've seen with our lot is this line of thinking; most churches I've attended ask every.single.Sunday - "do you know that you are saved?" "Do you know if you really asked Christ into your heart?" or "Have you asked awhile ago but have maybe fallen away on your walk and need to ask Him back again?" It's as though the pastor is saying - "I don't know if you are saved, do you know if you are saved? If not, then let me help you become saved, even though I don't really know what you need to do in order to be saved." There is just so much confusion there. I've been to many different Protestant churches, different denominations and this seems to be a reoccurring theme amongst all of them. One of the things I've come to appreciate about the Catholic church is this idea of developing and growing in your Christian walk - this idea of God continuing to form you throughout your life. It isn't a "once for all" major event, it is something that happens every day, in everything that we do (mistakes and all!). Catholics tend to focus more on God working in them through their marriage, through their parenting, through their acts of service, through going to mass, through partaking in the Eucharist...it all serves to build up the person in the Body of Christ. I'm not saying she should go Catholic, LOL, but I sometimes think the split church is missing some important elements, kwim? We've lost focus on the Resurrection, which is what we're really looking forward to. We've lost focus on the real church (the Body of Believers - you and me, and everyone else that believes...together...not separately) - we are so very self centered as Christians today because it's all about *me* and my walk with Christ, and am I really walking with Christ? When can we stop asking that question and just join in fellowship? When do we graduate from needing spiritual milk as infants in Christ, and can progress on to maturity, being adults in Christ and be fed spiritual meat? It seems that Sunday morning keeps us in perpetual infancy, always asking if we've made that first step, but is never prepared to help us take the next step in our walk. Anyhow, not to cause any disagreements here, or to criticize - I've just seen this idea prevalent in many Christians (including myself), to the point of becoming numb to Christ and wondering once again, have I *really* accepted Him and been saved? We focus so much on the emotional element of our walk. Are we "feeling" God? But like marriage, we don't feel head over heels in love most of the time and have to just decide that we're going to remain faithful anyway. I think the marriage analogy is the most helpful. I'm not always a great wife, but I'm still married:)

[mrsrevmeg]

The book of 1 John is a great book to look at whether or not your faith is real. Maybe you can gain some insight for your friend by reading it, or have your friend read it for him/herself.

[JudyJudyJudy]

This may not be what you want to hear, but I'll share a small bit of my story. Many years ago I was in a similar situation as your friend. I was struggling so hard to be a Christian. The reality was that I didn't believe in God but that I wanted to believe. I tried so hard, and it was a miserable way to live. The main reason I wanted to believe was because I had been taught the evils of not believing and because I knew that some of my friends and family would not accept me if they knew I didn't believe. (I live in the Bible Belt.)

 

When I confided in a couple of friends, what I wanted them to tell me was that it really was okay not to believe and that they would still be there for me no matter what. Well, they never told me that, so I struggled for more years until I was finally able to admit to my heathen self that I truly didn't believe in the Christian god nor in any other gods. That was such a relief for me. Some people accepted it, and some did not, but I was finally free to be my true self. (Some of my friends and family still don't know, though. It's just easier that way in some cases.)

[Soph the vet]

Your friend needs to look at Jesus, not self. His work on the cross was perfect and accomplished the defeat of sin, Satan, and death. I go to bed each night knowing that I am an imperfect sinner who has a perfect Savior and I trust His work for my salvation, not mine.

The other thing that should encourage your friend is that she is struggling with sin. This shows that she recognizes it and it bothers her. She is not oblivious to it and she is not jumping into it. It is rather like slipping and falling in a mud puddle rather than jumping into one and not caring. We all continue to sin, but we should not seek it and it should be a struggle. Ask her if she can look back a year ago and see herself growing in holiness. Hopefully, the answer will be yes.

[Beebalm]

I found a book I liked but found that it was not the easiest read...however, I stumbled across it on dvd in the local library a few days ago. My family and I are watching it this week. It might be helpful to your friend. The name is The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. It's the story of a journalist seeking proof of Christ's life and ministry. HTH

[lionfamily1999]

I just finished a great book that rationally explains Christianity, as well as the logic that goes with it and historical accuracy, etc. Unfortuneatly, I lent it to my brother and I can't remember the name of it. More Than a Carpenter or Not Just a Carpenter?

 

I'm such a wishy washy person and that book helped me to see the truth behind it. I understand your friend is a perfectionist, but the logic in this book might settle any of her doubts.

[KingM]

Is this person confiding or asking advice? If your friend is asking for advice, I think it would be appropriate to consider some of the suggestions already given.

 

If, however, he/she just needs a sympathetic ear, I would give some space. Just listen. It could be that your friend ultimately comes to a different conclusion about the meaning of life, but he/she will always appreciate how understanding you have been.

[OnTheBrink]

You know, I used to struggle with this. I relied on feeling like a Christian and on days when I didn't feel that way, I questioned my salvation.

 

But the thing is, salvation isn't a feeling. It's a gift. It's there whether you feel like it's there or not. I think many times, we get so wrapped up in the "experience" of Christianity, we doubt God's gift if we aren't all warm and fuzzy, or overflowing with optimism and charity toward our fellow man. We have emotions, they're from God, but they don't dictate whether we're saved or not.

 

We all have difficulty walking the walk. I love this passage in Scripture:

 

Hebrews 2:16-18

 

16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

 

17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

 

18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

 

Jesus understands our doubts and fears; He's btdt on our behalf. For me, that is extremely comforting, knowing that my doubt or struggle isn't an indication of my spiritual condition. Many times, when I struggle with these things, I end up reading more Scripture and strengthening my own relationship with Christ.

 

The Psalms are full of cries out to God regarding salvation, persecution, forgiveness of sins, etc. I think God wants us to know Christianity isn't a cake walk and it's not like living in Stepford and being a Stepford wife.

 

There's a great song by the late Keith Green that I love, it always lifts me when I'm feeling how your friend is feeling:

 

My Eyes are Dry

 

My eyes are dry, my faith is old

My heart is hard, my prayers are cold

And I know how I ought to be

Alive to you, and dead to me

 

Oh, what can be done for an old heart like mine

Soften it up with oil and wine

The oil is You, Your Spirit of love

Please wash me anew in the wind of Your Blood

[Avila]

Catherine Marshall's book "Beyond Ourselves" was critical in my spiritual journey. All of her books are good, but this one addresses the issues you are talking about. And she got some of her ideas from Hannah Whitall Smith, who is good too.

[Ellie]

Bible study--it doesn't matter which one--consistent fellowship with other believers, regular church attendance...IOW, *acting* like a Christian rather than spending so much time being introspective and pondering feelings.

[LBC]

I've struggled with this as a perfectionist and as someone that hears the same thing over & over at church each week. I'm a Protestant (i.e., non Catholic or Orthodox) but one of the problems I've seen with our lot is this line of thinking; most churches I've attended ask every.single.Sunday - "do you know that you are saved?" "Do you know if you really asked Christ into your heart?" or "Have you asked awhile ago but have maybe fallen away on your walk and need to ask Him back again?" It's as though the pastor is saying - "I don't know if you are saved, do you know if you are saved? If not, then let me help you become saved, even though I don't really know what you need to do in order to be saved." There is just so much confusion there. I've been to many different Protestant churches, different denominations and this seems to be a reoccurring theme amongst all of them. One of the things I've come to appreciate about the Catholic church is this idea of developing and growing in your Christian walk - this idea of God continuing to form you throughout your life. It isn't a "once for all" major event, it is something that happens every day, in everything that we do (mistakes and all!). Catholics tend to focus more on God working in them through their marriage, through their parenting, through their acts of service, through going to mass, through partaking in the Eucharist...it all serves to build up the person in the Body of Christ. I'm not saying she should go Catholic, LOL, but I sometimes think the split church is missing some important elements, kwim? We've lost focus on the Resurrection, which is what we're really looking forward to. We've lost focus on the real church (the Body of Believers - you and me, and everyone else that believes...together...not separately) - we are so very self centered as Christians today because it's all about *me* and my walk with Christ, and am I really walking with Christ? When can we stop asking that question and just join in fellowship? When do we graduate from needing spiritual milk as infants in Christ, and can progress on to maturity, being adults in Christ and be fed spiritual meat? It seems that Sunday morning keeps us in perpetual infancy, always asking if we've made that first step, but is never prepared to help us take the next step in our walk. Anyhow, not to cause any disagreements here, or to criticize - I've just seen this idea prevalent in many Christians (including myself), to the point of becoming numb to Christ and wondering once again, have I *really* accepted Him and been saved? We focus so much on the emotional element of our walk. Are we "feeling" God? But like marriage, we don't feel head over heels in love most of the time and have to just decide that we're going to remain faithful anyway. I think the marriage analogy is the most helpful. I'm not always a great wife, but I'm still married:)

 

There is a lot of insight in this post.

 

I think it's so important to remember that Christ came to fulfill the law, and that being a believer sets us free from the tyranny of the law (which is what your friend seems to be experiencing). So often there seems to be an emphasis on "sin management" in the church. Focusing on "sin management" leads to self righteousness. Our righteousness is in Christ, not self. It's a paradigm shift. I actually had to take a break from church in order to let this sink in, because the messages I would hear on Sunday were always about doing more, and acting better. The truth of the gospel of grace is that there is nothing we can do to change our standing with God, because Jesus' sacrifice has put us in good standing, not our works or behavior.

 

There are some great little mini teachings on youtube by a guy named Steve McVey.

. They may be helpful. Steve also has a website: GraceWalk Reading Steve's books changed both my and my husband's life.

 

Lori

Edited July 29, 2009 by LBC

[Gailmegan]

One of the most comforting essays written in Christian history is Luther's Introduction to his Commentary on Galatians. You can view it online here: http://books.google.com/books?id=kce4lUaifMsC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0

 

Although the translation is not modern, the emphasis on God's grace and Christ's righteousness is beautifully encouraging to all believers. It's a must-read!

[WishboneDawn]

is struggling with their Christian walk - struggling in two ways: 1) knowing (or being at peace) that they actually ARE a Christian (they've prayed and prayed and PRAYED!); and, 2) feel they must not really be a Christian because of difficulty walking the walk all.the.time, as in every single second. This person sets very high standards and I think maybe those standards are bordering on legalism and getting in the way . . . As I seem to be the one this person is confiding in, and since I am just plain out of knowing what to say or what other scriptures to give --- I am asking the Hive for suggestions --- and also prayer that, not only will I know how to help this person, but also that this person will receive what is needed to gain victory.

 

THANK YOU!

 

I'm not sure what resources to offer you for your friend but I can sympathize with his/her struggle. Faith isn't my gift and I've very rarely felt secure and easy about my faith and religion.

 

What does help is examining Christianity beyond my church or denomination. I frankly don't think my church represents the full spectrum of Christianity or actually can. I don't mean leaving my church but I mean things like talking to other, very different, Christians or reading material from different traditions or from the past.

 

Talking to Conservative Christian women has made my idea of surrender blossom (yes, I'm still a feminist. :D) and freed it from modern political shackles. Reading the poems of St. Theresa (my favorite being "Christ has no Body - the first line of that has become a prayer for me) has expanded my ideas of what it means to act and live as a Christian. Reading Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling has defined what faith is not (despair) and given me permission to speak irrationally about the subject. Researching different kinds and forms of prayer has opened up that for me. For instance, petitions leave me cold. A song, meditation or viewing simple work as a prayer work wonders.

 

All this and the giving up on the idea that faith needs to be constant, unquestioning and unshakeable. Rather that's it's always a works in progress, as is my life as a Christian. For me at least, I've come to think that the day I'm secure in my faith and convinced I'm a proper Christian is the day I've gotten lazy and cheated somehow.

 

All this to say, help your friend explore and learn more. Let them see scripture reflected in the writings, experiences and traditions of other Christians and denominations so when he/she goes back to the Bible the words speak more.

 

For a very specific reccomendation try Jean Vanier's Becoming Human. He's a deeply spiritual Canadian man who founded L'Arche - A French organization that looks after mentally handicapped people in a community setting. I know a lot of people who've found a lot of strength, inspiration and comfort in his writings when they were in flux.

[Guest janainaz]

I don't think there is always something you can say or even a scripture to make someone believe they are loved unconditionally. Often this is just a work of God in the person's life - trust needs to grow in their relationship and it's not always an overnight process. This reminds me of my sister. She never fully accepts what God has to offer and in the same respect she has difficulty extending grace and forgiveness.

[BikeBookBread]

is struggling with their Christian walk - struggling in two ways: 1) knowing (or being at peace) that they actually ARE a Christian (they've prayed and prayed and PRAYED!); and, 2) feel they must not really be a Christian because of difficulty walking the walk all.the.time, as in every single second. This person sets very high standards and I think maybe those standards are bordering on legalism and getting in the way . . . As I seem to be the one this person is confiding in, and since I am just plain out of knowing what to say or what other scriptures to give --- I am asking the Hive for suggestions --- and also prayer that, not only will I know how to help this person, but also that this person will receive what is needed to gain victory.

 

THANK YOU!

 

I would have them turn to the source of peace: scripture itself. Have your friend read I John -- the book of assurance!!

[Quiver0f10]

You know, I used to struggle with this. I relied on feeling like a Christian and on days when I didn't feel that way, I questioned my salvation.

 

But the thing is, salvation isn't a feeling. It's a gift. It's there whether you feel like it's there or not. I think many times, we get so wrapped up in the "experience" of Christianity, we doubt God's gift if we aren't all warm and fuzzy, or overflowing with optimism and charity toward our fellow man. We have emotions, they're from God, but they don't dictate whether we're saved or not.

 

We all have difficulty walking the walk. I love this passage in Scripture:

 

Hebrews 2:16-18

 

16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

 

17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

 

18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

 

Jesus understands our doubts and fears; He's btdt on our behalf. For me, that is extremely comforting, knowing that my doubt or struggle isn't an indication of my spiritual condition. Many times, when I struggle with these things, I end up reading more Scripture and strengthening my own relationship with Christ.

 

The Psalms are full of cries out to God regarding salvation, persecution, forgiveness of sins, etc. I think God wants us to know Christianity isn't a cake walk and it's not like living in Stepford and being a Stepford wife.

 

There's a great song by the late Keith Green that I love, it always lifts me when I'm feeling how your friend is feeling:

 

My Eyes are Dry

 

My eyes are dry, my faith is old

My heart is hard, my prayers are cold

And I know how I ought to be

Alive to you, and dead to me

 

Oh, what can be done for an old heart like mine

Soften it up with oil and wine

The oil is You, Your Spirit of love

Please wash me anew in the wind of Your Blood

 

Wonderful post!!!

[eaglei]

THANK YOU EVERYONE! Your responses have been such a help. I am sitting here in tears . . .

 

I can't possibly respond to each entry because I would end up writing a tome! But please know that each of you has touched on vital points (for lack of a better word); some have confirmed what I thought, and some have given direction or better insight, etc.

 

To answer just a couple questions - this person is confiding and also seeking answers - it is painful to watch the struggle . . . and their pain in this struggle is palpable . . .

 

I purposely didn't list any scriptures I have shared because I want to hear from your hearts. I asked the Lord before posting to direct the responses because He KNOWS the need far better than I. He has answered - He is faithful!

 

If anyone else wants to respond, please do so! I will check back later. Thank you again!