Classical Education questions

[dancer67]

(X-Posted and pasted from my Connect the Thoughts thread)

 

Can someone explain this? I thought Classical Education was more geared towards memorization, copywork, and dictation. How does a classical education have a child "think"???? Connect the Thoughts curriculum, from what I have read, does not promote this.

 

I guess I am a little confused. Oh, and I have read the new WTM book, and SWB stresses memorization. Thoughts???(Maybe I missed something).

 

She also focuses on a lot of grammar, especially in the early years. Something I have never agreed with. I always thought that good grammar came from good literature and writing. And to not start a formal grammar program until at least middle school, where it can be retained more, and only a year of it at best, then review after.

 

 

I am new to classical education.

 

I would be starting a classical education for a child already going into Grade 6, and we have alwys been relaxed homeschoolers.

 

Thoughts? Help?

 

 

 

[Peela]

(X-Posted and pasted from my Connect the Thoughts thread)

 

Can someone explain this? I thought Classical Education was more geared towards memorization, copywork, and dictation. How does a classical education have a child "think"???? Connect the Thoughts curriculum, from what I have read, does not promote this.

 

I guess I am a little confused. Oh, and I have read the new WTM book, and SWB stresses memorization. Thoughts???(Maybe I missed something).

 

She also focuses on a lot of grammar, especially in the early years. Something I have never agreed with. I always thought that good grammar came from good literature and writing. And to not start a formal grammar program until at least middle school, where it can be retained more, and only a year of it at best, then review after.

 

 

I am new to classical education.

 

I would be starting a classical education for a child already going into Grade 6, and we have alwys been relaxed homeschoolers.

 

Thoughts? Help?

 

 

 

 

 

I would say memorisation, copywork and dictation are stressed in the grammar stage, but not later- not by 6th grade. If you read TWTM you would have seen that SWB divides classical education for children into 3 stages- grammar, logic and rhetoric. The grammar stage is a lot of exposure to information in story form, learning rules such as in Latin and grammar and spelling, and learning to read and write is emphasised ...but this is because this is the natural stage that children can learn these things easily. Memorisation is easy at this time and harder later.

Your dd would be in the logic stage where if she can already write well copywork and dictation need not be covered and the emphasis is more on connections and thinking than memorisation. However dictation can still be a valuable learning tool....if TWTM did not convince you of that, though, I probably cant, but I swear by it for my reluctant writer.

 

I do believe that for many kids a classical education does make them think very well and I am perhaps hard on my own kids for not being so interested in learning since they have their own passions that are not academic- I am not feeling that we have wasted our time with a classical approach at all, and nor do I feel it all revolves around memorisation and rote learning. It doesnt- that is a stage and a part of it. By the rhetoric stage kids will theoretically have such a strong foundation of knowledge and learning skills that they learn to express themselves well and truly think for themselves.

But if you have read TWTM and are not inspired by it, maybe it's just not for you. THe whole point of a classical educaiton is to make a child think, not just to stuff them with information. How well that actually works for individual personalities and family styles is variable though.

[Snickerdoodle]

I posted this on your other thread

 

I'm sure many people can answer this much better than me.

 

Memorization is building a framework and a world view by which to filter and process information.

 

 

I like this aspect of it. That there is no real right or wrong answer. The author feels that as long as they are understanding the material, that is what matters.

I have been thinking a lot about this thread today especially the part which you wrote above. I'm not feeling very comfortable with it but I can't exactly put it into words yet.

[Snickerdoodle]

Have you read Jane Healy's book?

 

It is described as:

[Healy] clearly conveys the relationship between language, learning, and brain development,

.

 

It's a fascinating read.

[dancer67]

So can you jump into a Classical education starting at Grade 6? (well, I should say she would be going into Grade 5 if she was to return to public school, we say Grade 6 as she missed cutoff by 8 days)We have never done dictation at all. Again, we have been relaxed, almost "unschoolers".

 

My daughter is a vorcarious(SP?) reader. Tackling high school level books. One of her favorites was Wuthering Heights.

 

My worry is this as well. Can I "teach" a classical education. To be honest, when I was in high school. I D-R-E-A-D-E-D anything to do with Ancient or medievel histories.

 

We have not done any formal curriculums for history or science. My daughter has an interest in American History. I know that is the point I want to start. But classical education focuses on a 4 year History rotation. So do we really have to plod through the Ancients? I have even tried reading the Ancients here on my own, and it just bores me to death. I live American History, I love everything about it. And the times we are going through right now, I think it is important to know as much as possible about our own country. I know American History is not covered nearly enough in public schools, as the early grades focus only on social studies.

 

I have looked briefly at Omnibus, just for the hey of it. Okay, no way could we tackle that. Well, not now. But I don't think we could even in high school.

 

So, maybe I should go back and re-read the WTM book again. I wouldn't evenknow where to start really. I am sure this time around, maybe I can understand the method much more clearly.

 

I know I want the best education for my daughter, so if she were to ever have to reurn to school for high school, she is well prepared, and has her own ideas and opinions, so that there will be no "indoctrination" taking place. She will have her own beliefs, and be able to stand her ground, while backing up her rebuttals with facts.

 

I hope I am making some kind of sense?????:confused:

[dancer67]

Have you read Jane Healy's book?

 

It is described as:

.

 

It's a fascinating read.

 

Snickerdoodle, no I have not read this. It looks fantastic though. Thanks for the suggestion!!

[Snickerdoodle]

Here are another couple of articles I picked up along the way:

 

In defense of Memorization.

One Myth, Two Truths

[elegantlion]

I would recommend getting a copy of The Latin-Centered Curriculum. You do a search here as well for many conversations about this style of schooling.

[Hsmomto4]

So can you jump into a Classical education starting at Grade 6? (well, I should say she would be going into Grade 5 if she was to return to public school, we say Grade 6 as she missed cutoff by 8 days)We have never done dictation at all. Again, we have been relaxed, almost "unschoolers". We started the classical education with our oldest in grade 5 and she is almost graduating now. She had no trouble transitioning into it.

 

My daughter is a vorcarious(SP?) reader. Tackling high school level books. One of her favorites was Wuthering Heights. My oldest was reading on an 11th grade level in 1st grade so I understand the reading. She also could spell anything you asked of her. If your daughter is this way then she is most likely ready for Vocabulary from Classical Roots A, but please make sure her spelling is down pat.

 

My worry is this as well. Can I "teach" a classical education. To be honest, when I was in high school. I D-R-E-A-D-E-D anything to do with Ancient or medievel histories.

 

Well the good news is that you aren't the one doing the work :lol: If she loves to read, she will be just fine. You just have to give her the books to read. As the parent, you can use spark notes to help you understand everything you need to know about the book to talk to her about it. I would use SOTW and the KFHE for history and then assign her so many books to read. You just need to focus on her outlining and making sure she does the work.

 

We have not done any formal curriculums for history or science. My daughter has an interest in American History. I know that is the point I want to start. But classical education focuses on a 4 year History rotation. So do we really have to plod through the Ancients? You really should start in Ancient history. To truly understand American History, you need to know where we came from in the past. I have even tried reading the Ancients here on my own, and it just bores me to death. I live American History, I love everything about it. And the times we are going through right now, I think it is important to know as much as possible about our own country. I know American History is not covered nearly enough in public schools, as the early grades focus only on social studies. When you hit American History in year 3 you will love it then, but you will also be able to understand how American History fits in with World History. Here is an example, my oldest daughter and I just wrote a play for the 4th of July. Many people came up to us after it was over and said for once they understood how we got into WW1 because we explained what was going on over in Europe as well as America. By learning world history, you are better able to understand how everything fits together.

 

I have looked briefly at Omnibus, just for the hey of it. Okay, no way could we tackle that. Well, not now. But I don't think we could even in high school.

 

So, maybe I should go back and re-read the WTM book again. I wouldn't evenknow where to start really. I am sure this time around, maybe I can understand the method much more clearly.

 

I know I want the best education for my daughter, so if she were to ever have to reurn to school for high school, she is well prepared, and has her own ideas and opinions, so that there will be no "indoctrination" taking place. She will have her own beliefs, and be able to stand her ground, while backing up her rebuttals with facts. If this is what you want, then start at the beginning of the logic stage and go from there. Instead of jumping into year 6, start at year 5. If she test more advanced in grammar and math put her at her level, but start with Logic, History and Science as you wold in grade 5. Within the next 4 years she will learn to think for herself and become her own person. Then you will really have fun in the Rhetoric stage!

 

I hope I am making some kind of sense?????:confused:

 

My thoughts in red:)

[iwka]

http://www.classicalliberalarts.com/library/trueeducation.htm

http://www.classicalliberalarts.com/library/trueeducation2.htm

 

from here:

http://www.classicalliberalarts.com/resources/index.htm

[OrganicAnn]

It is my opinion that the idea that you can learn grammar by reading good literature is erroneous. Most people written grammar is more similar to their verbal grammar (unless specifically taught). So if you grew up with an English teacher correcting your speech, then you will have better grammar than someone who has read the whole cannon of English literature.

 

So I think learning grammar is as important as learning spelling. One might argue the same of spelling. If you read good literature you will pick up spelling. I know plenty of people who've read lots of literature but were poor spellers.

[dancer67]

All of you have given me some really terrific suggestions. LCC is one I will read up on, go back to tread the WTM, and someone said to possibly start at Grade 5 and go up from there.

 

Thank you!!

[Colleen in NS]

I thought Classical Education was more geared towards memorization, copywork, and dictation. How does a classical education have a child "think"????

 

When I hear the term "classical education," I don't think about learning in depth about all the ancient stories/people and learning Latin right through to being able to read ancient books in their native language. I think of learning tools to be able to teach myself things from books and to be able to talk about ideas. I know there is a term "neo-classical," and this may be what applies to what I'm thinking. So, what is it you think "classical education" means? What is it that you want for your family?

 

The type I am thinking about comes from the WTM book and it most definitely teaches you how to think and connect thought and discuss and all that good stuff. SWB wrote in great detail in that book, to show us how to conduct that type of education, because a lot of us who are homeschooling now did not have those tools taught to us. So, it might seem like there is lots of emphasis on memory work, or grammar, or whatever, but it all fits into a bigger picture, that becomes clearer as our kids grow. (and I've learned and continue to learn how to adapt all the instructions to my kids and to our family, and to discard what I don't think we need - if I can explain to myself *why* I'm ditching something, then that is good)

 

I think grammar/mem. work/math/writing/reading/spelling skills are all necessary, to set a foundation for more complex reading and thinking in the later school years. I sort of jumped into using WTM methods and resources blindly and muddled my way along, because I liked how the book laid out things and told me what to do, and I believed it when it said that my kids would learn to think clearly. No other book had told me *how* to do this. Anyway, five years down the road, I am definitely seeing progress in thinking skills in *all" of us, and am having fun watching my kids start to connect things in their minds.

 

So can you jump into a Classical education starting at Grade 6?

 

You can begin a classical education at any time in life. I started in my mid-30s. :D You just adapt it to what your child needs at that particular time. Not caught up in grammar? Find a good grammar course and appropriate level. Doesn't have all math facts memorized? Find a math program that will help do this, and start at whatever level is needed. Etc.. (I had to start myself at 5th grade grammar, LOL!)

[Verity]

I have been thinking a lot about this thread today especially the part which you wrote above. I'm not feeling very comfortable with it but I can't exactly put it into words yet.

 

Re: There is no right or wrong answer.

 

 

There is a definite place in teaching where good teachers try to teach by asking questions that don't have clear cut black and white answers. This is especially useful in the later dialectic and rhetoric stages. I *think* that is what the original poster meant from her comment. In homeschools in particular we are able to impart to our children what our values are, the differences between right and wrong and the struggle that we each face when we deal with areas that fall into the shades of gray.

 

I think that is the kind of approach the author of the curriculum is trying for, though I have not read the curriculum, only perused its website.

[mo2]

My worry is this as well. Can I "teach" a classical education. To be honest, when I was in high school. I D-R-E-A-D-E-D anything to do with Ancient or medievel histories.

 

I've not been doing this long enough to offer you any advice (my oldest is only 7), but I do want to say that you may find things much more interesting this time around. I hated it in high school as well, but now I am coming to believe that I hated it because of the way it was taught, not because of the content itself. Now that you're in charge, you can choose the reading materials. Don't like a particular book? Don't read it! There are plenty of other good ones out there. Pick a topic you want to learn about, any topic at all, and create a post here asking for book recs...you'll likely get more than you really need!

 

Hsing is going to be a journey for our family. In order to give my children the kind of education I want them to have, I'm going to have to do some self education also. Right now I'm reading Beowulf. It was not required in the school I went to. I always thought it was some crazy deep book that smart people and nerds read. But you know what? I am enjoying it, and it's not at all hard to read (at least not the Heaney translation). It's helping me to get in touch with my inner nerdiness.

 

I may have gotten a little off topic here. Sorry. But the short answer is that yes, you can teach a classical education.

[Mama Lynx]

I encourage you to do as much reading as you can about classical education.

 

"Classical education" does not do a four-year history cycle. TWTM, and some other *methods of implementing* a classical education do. But if you desire a classical education, it will help if you read books that will help you to understand what that really means. Then, you can choose the method that is best for you.

 

I recommend The Latin-Centered Curriculum, as well. It gets into a little more of the philosophy of what it means to have a classical education than WTM does. Both LCC and WTM (and there are others!) are excellent guides, but each has a different focus and method.

 

Can you teach a classical education to your student? With a sixth grader, and with your own lack of classical training (and few of us have had any classical training) you will be more in a position of *guiding* your child. And this will work best if you learn, too.

 

yes, you *can* do this. Yes, a classical education is worth the work. If TWTM appeals to you, I second the suggestion of starting in WTM year 5, and going from there. But do read TWTM again; and if you can, also read LCC, read websites, and come back and ask us more questions :)

[Colleen in NS]

I hated it because of the way it was taught, not because of the content itself. Now that you're in charge, you can choose the reading materials. Don't like a particular book? Don't read it! There are plenty of other good ones out there. Pick a topic you want to learn about, any topic at all, and create a post here asking for book recs...you'll likely get more than you really need!

 

:iagree:

 

 

It's helping me to get in touch with my inner nerdiness.

 

:lol:

 

I've found all this to be true, too. I actually read a Plato selection a few months ago, and am slowly going through another one and ENJOYING them - that is HUGE for me!

 

Also, even if kids don't read exactly this stuff in high school, if you at least give them skills to tackle books and let them practice reading/thinking/writing, they may come to love Plato and Beowulf later on. :D

[Penny]

http://www.isi.org/lectures/lectures.aspx?SBy=lecture&SFor=161e5271-b028-4398-9b81-f38a3987c1e0

 

Climbing Parnassus: A New Apologia for Greek and Latin

[phathui5]

It is my opinion that the idea that you can learn grammar by reading good literature is erroneous. Most people written grammar is more similar to their verbal grammar (unless specifically taught). So if you grew up with an English teacher correcting your speech, then you will have better grammar than someone who has read the whole cannon of English literature.

 

I agree completely.

[Ummto4]

Charlotte Mason (CM) is also thought as a classical educator. She, however, does not stress a lot on memorization and pouring in the facts, except for poetry.

 

I personally ask my kids to memorize poem and our holy book. Math facts are sort of memorized. But I give them strategy and play a lot of games to drill the facts. But other than that, I don't make my kids to memorize much. Perhaps just capital of US, state, capital of state, president, important dates (thanksgiving, 4th of July). They are pretty painless to memorize though because they're common knowledge.

 

The rest is more CM-way and I do guide them in thinking.

[japhmi]

(X-Posted and pasted from my Connect the Thoughts thread)

 

Can someone explain this? I thought Classical Education was more geared towards memorization, copywork, and dictation. How does a classical education have a child "think"???? Connect the Thoughts curriculum, from what I have read, does not promote this.

I'm don't know what 'Connect the Thoughts' is - but why would memorization, dictation, and copywork be antithetical to teaching one to think? Those are foundational skills that then allow the growing child to have base of knowledge upon which to think about.