Drawn Into the Heart of Reading and the Classical Method

[rjperez1]

Hi everyone! I have a classical method question...and some (take your pick).

 

DITHOR seems to use a lot of literary analysis. Is this ok for the grammar stage? I was under the impression that children this age aren't supposed to be doing very much analysis. Am I just misunderstanding the grammar stage or the HOD program?

 

Also, can anyone using HOD tell me what she uses for copywork? Scripture? Selections from history or lit. that the program covers? The website says copywork is included.

 

Yet another question: Is this program's LA compatible with SWB's WWE?

 

I would appreciate any advice.:confused: I am going to bed and will check responses tomorrow. Is that bad etiquette?;)

Thanks!

[Lovedtodeath]

I have wondered about the same things. I also didn't know what DITHOR stood for. LOL

[Lovedtodeath]

I also wonder how a literary analysis program can be so good if you can pick your own literature to do it with? I guess I need someone to speak very slowly. :tongue_smilie:

[coffeefreak]

I also wonder how a literary analysis program can be so good if you can pick your own literature to do it with? I guess I need someone to speak very slowly. :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean, you want a program that tells you what you should be drawing from the book? Like what Veritas Press does? I think it depends on comfort level and preferences. I like DITHOR because I don't need a guide for the books we're reading. The student texts are more than enough, and anything extra I want her to draw from the books, I can do on my own. I also like to pick the books from what we're already reading. This way, I don't necessarily have to have one more book for her to do reading with.

 

As for using it during the Grammar stage, it depends on the child. :001_smile:

 

I would recommend going to the HOD forums to ask your other questions. The ladies over there are extremely helpful, and Carrie herself will gladly answer any questions you have about the program. Also, they won't hold it against you if you decide it's not for you:001_smile:

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[ChicoryChick]

Hi Julia,

 

We will be using DITHOR for the first time this coming year (and then it will be with a 4th & 6th grader), so can't help you much with the first part of your questions.

 

As for copywork, HOD uses scripture (which usually ties in with the history or science lesson), Draw & Write through History, and paragraphs/sentences from books they are reading, so there is a combination of sources. Since they are also learning poetry, you could use that as your copywork also.

 

HTH

 

Kay

 

PS: I don't think it is bad etiquette to go to be and check back. :D

[Another Lynn]

Hi Julia,

I don't have any advice re to DITHOR, but just wanted to mention that HOD's copywork depends on which of the guides you are using. Beyond Little Hearts for His Glory used the weekly poetry selection for suggested copywork. Preparing Hearts for His Glory used scripture, Draw and Write Through History, etc. I'm not sure about Bigger Hearts.

 

As far as being compatible with WWE, I think there are folks who use WWE with HOD. HOD's LA recommendation is R&S, but the guides are written in a way that you can use any LA or Math you want without effecting the rest of the plans. I think the guides are written in a way to gradually build narration skills. By the time you get to Preparing Hearts, there is a weekly written narration assignment (with some guidance). Also, the appendix of Preparing has 2 or 3 levels of dictation sentences to use, although the method suggested is studied dictation (student looks at and studies the sentences first and the dictation is given a phrase or sentence at a time - rather than hearing - and only hearing - the entire passage before writing - which I think is more the WWE way). I think there are old threads comparing studied dictation vs. WWE dictation, if you are interested.

 

Hope that helps!

Lynn

[ariasmommy]

Well, I had been considering DITHOR for my 7 yo dd this year, but I was listening to Susan Wise Bauer's workshop on CD, "Great Books: History as Literature", and she was very much against using literature analysis programs during the grammer stage, as it could make reading a chore, destroying their love for it. Even in the logic stage, she said to start out by only asking 1 or 2 questions about each book, and never to ask a child about a book he or she had really enjoyed - they just would not be able to articulate their feelings - it was too personal. I'm probably not doing a very good job of explaining her viewpoint here:tongue_smilie:, but I fould it very interesting, and it made me rethink doing DITHOR, at least at this point. HTH! :)

[HollyDay]

I will have to respectfully disagree on this one. We have enjoyed DITHOR since 2nd grade. I pick and chose which questions/projects we do based on the book and interest of the dc. I have found that dc love to talk about the books they are reading. Often they come up to me, without prompting, and start talking about their favorite books or they draw pictures illustrating a favorite part. Discussion of books just seems to come naturally. THey will ask about whatever I am reading too.

 

Maybe it is the "formal" workbooky thing that bothers SWR, I dont know, and I do not want to presume as I have not heard her lecture on this subject.

 

But, for us DITHOR is a great choice

[rjperez1]

Well, I had been considering DITHOR for my 7 yo dd this year, but I was listening to Susan Wise Bauer's workshop on CD, "Great Books: History as Literature", and she was very much against using literature analysis programs during the grammer stage, as it could make reading a chore, destroying their love for it. Even in the logic stage, she said to start out by only asking 1 or 2 questions about each book, and never to ask a child about a book he or she had really enjoyed - they just would not be able to articulate their feelings - it was too personal. I'm probably not doing a very good job of explaining her viewpoint here:tongue_smilie:, but I fould it very interesting, and it made me rethink doing DITHOR, at least at this point. HTH! :)

 

This is one of the things I was curious about. It seems to me that the classical method discourages students from analyzing in the grammar stage. Rather, they are to absorb and practice, mostly. Do you agree with this? I have one son who is very articulate, but can only analyze sponateously, not on cue.

 

Hi Julia,

I don't have any advice re to DITHOR, but just wanted to mention that HOD's copywork depends on which of the guides you are using. Beyond Little Hearts for His Glory used the weekly poetry selection for suggested copywork. Preparing Hearts for His Glory used scripture, Draw and Write Through History, etc. I'm not sure about Bigger Hearts.

Thank you! This is just what I wanted to know! I guess I could go on the HOD forum and ask that ques. I just know that there are some here that ascribe to the classical method, but use HOD materials.

 

"I think the guides are written in a way to gradually build narration skills. By the time you get to Preparing Hearts, there is a weekly written narration assignment (with some guidance). Also, the appendix of Preparing has 2 or 3 levels of dictation sentences to use, although the method suggested is studied dictation (student looks at and studies the sentences first and the dictation is given a phrase or sentence at a time - rather than hearing - and only hearing - the entire passage before writing - which I think is more the WWE way). I think there are old threads comparing studied dictation vs. WWE dictation, if you are interested."

 

Yes, I just read in WWE that the instructor should let the student see the work to be copied before the dictation begins. I will search for the other threads which speak to that topic.

 

 

"As for copywork, HOD uses scripture (which usually ties in with the history or science lesson), Draw & Write through History, and paragraphs/sentences from books they are reading, so there is a combination of sources. Since they are also learning poetry, you could use that as your copywork also."

Excellent! Thanks for letting me know. I would like to use Bigger with 2 of my boys, so if anyone has used Bigger and knows if they use the same methods as Preparing... Thanks for the encouragement concerning my etiquette. I can post so much easier at night, but then I get tired!

 

Wow! many of my questions answered! Thank you all for replying with details for me. I really like WWE, but don't want to use the workbooks if HOD already covers much of what is in the WWE workbooks. Plus, I much prefer to incorporate some Scripture and my own choices for lit. selections. I'm hoping to tweak the writing in HOD to make it follow WWE lessons laid out in the book. Any comments on that? Sorry about the multi-quote mess up. I am not very experienced!

Edited June 15, 2009 by rjperez1
messed up quotes

[hmschooling]

THere's not much actual analysis in the 2/3 level of DITHOR. It's more learning to articulate and comprehend reading aloud, noticing and comparing character traits and enjoying talking about them together, drawing pictures to reflect mood, setting, etc. It isn't too much even if you follow the classical model very closely. It's gentle and it's goal is to produce a love of reading. It does a GREAT job at that. It also will help children with their oral narration skills b/c it helps them in a conversational manner, decide what a reading was all about or how it made them feel or what they would have done differently. My dd7 enjoys DITHOR very much. There's not many worksheets to do on this level either. It's kind of a gentle intro into the terminology (much like many classical methods use) before really digging deep to get the true understaning and application.

 

As you progress in levels, the analysis becomes a deeper analysis and by level 6/7/8 you are already doing a deeper lit study than most high school kids have ever done, and actually enjoying it! It's a wonderful program!

[Lovedtodeath]

Nevermind...

Edited June 15, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[rjperez1]

This sounds great! It's so hard to tell these things just by looking at the website. I wanted to ask my ques. here because (I"m assuming) the HOD forum is primarily Charlotte Mason style. I love the Charlotte Mason method. However, I've noticed with my own children that they do absorb facts very easily at this stage. While I don't want to cram them full of useless knowledge, I don't want to miss the opportunity to make the most of their natural abilities for their future benefit. I still remember things I memorized when I was little and I'm so glad someone taught me!

 

I'm still curious to know if anyone has specifically used HOD with WWE. Just wondering... I'm not proficient at the searches, but I guess now is a good time to learn as any!

[Another Lynn]

How does this apply to DITHOR if one isn't using another HOD program?:bigear: Thanks.

 

It doesn't :D. Dithor is just literature, but I was just trying to answer questions about copywork and wwe in relation to HOD. Hope I didn't add to the confusion.

[Lovedtodeath]

It doesn't :D. Dithor is just literature, but I was just trying to answer questions about copywork and wwe in relation to HOD. Hope I didn't add to the confusion.

 

I figured it out. That's why I said nevermind. ;)

[rjperez1]

I'm definitely less confused! Thanks to everyone here!

[ChicoryChick]

T

I would like to use Bigger with 2 of my boys, so if anyone has used Bigger and knows if they use the same methods as Preparing...

 

 

Hi, I haven't used Bigger (my info earlier was from Preparing alsO) but have it on my shelf. So am flipping through it:

 

Handwriting is still scheduled in Bigger. (I use "Beautiful Handwriting for Children Italics" by Penny Gardner which has copywork in the back of it.) Carrie also has copywork from scripture like in Preparing and in one of the Poetry boxes (this note is repeated every unit) she has "Copywork: You may choose to have students copy part of the poem for this unit each day". Students also (in Preparing too) copy vocabulary words and their definitions. HTH :D

[Zebra]

I haven't used HOD and WWE yet, but I am planning on using Beyond and WWE in July with my 1st grader.

 

I really like the specific sentences chosen for WWE, which is why were using it instead of copying the poems from HOD.

[ariasmommy]

This is one of the things I was curious about. It seems to me that the classical method discourages students from analyzing in the grammar stage. Rather, they are to absorb and practice, mostly. Do you agree with this? I have one son who is very articulate, but can only analyze sponateously, not on cue.

 

 

 

I think Susan's main concern is that during the grammar stage, the student learns to love history and love reading. I thinks she also believes that at this stage, they are not developmentally ready to do critical analysis of literature. I think this probably varies from child to child and family to family, but for me it was freeing to realize that I don't have to worry about this now, as I'm struggling to know how to fit in all the things I'd like to do with my dd (art, music, etc. - as well as "the basics"). I think DITHOR is a great program and if it works for you and isn't killing your child's love of learning, use it. But it was good for me to know that it isn't necessary at this age. Just my thoughts. :)

Edited June 15, 2009 by ariasmommy

[WhereHopeGrows]

If you do decide to use DITHOR, I have heard it works nicely to order the books she recommends. That way the questions will for sure be relevant to the books being read. Apparently the questions may not always apply if you select your own books.

 

I just bought DITHOR and the books to go along with it. I am excited to do this over the summer with my oldest. I am going to read the books with her and use it as a way to spend time with her and become more aware of her reading comprehension. Then next year I will probably just allow her to select books frm a list and read daily. Or if we only get through part of the program then we'll finish it during next year's school year.

 

Peraonally, I don't think DITHOR will go too deep, but I can totally understand your concern about too much book analysis at the grammar stage. I just got done using Sonlight's Language Arts with my older ones. It has a lot of focus on creative writing, and honestly, it seemed a little developmentally out of place. I do not plan to repeat it.

[rjperez1]

Thanks so much for all the advice, and thanks, also, for sharing the contents of Bigger with me. I'm trying to streamline as much as possible-to simplify. It is so easy to overkill with all these great curriculum choices out there! So, it seems like HOD materials could be adjusted pretty easily to coincide with the WWE plan.

[coffeefreak]

If you do decide to use DITHOR, I have heard it works nicely to order the books she recommends. That way the questions will for sure be relevant to the books being read. Apparently the questions may not always apply if you select your own books.

 

 

I didn't find this. I purposely did a unit this spring to see how it would work, and I've started planning the books we're going to use for the fall. I haven't had any problems making it "relevant." As a matter of fact, she has a huge list of books and where they might fit into the program. I wanted to use, "The Secret Garden," but I couldn't decide which genre it fit in. I posted on the boards and they told me :)

 

HTH!

Dorinda

[WhereHopeGrows]

That's nice to know. Thanks for sharing your experience. You are right, the boards are very helpful. I am excited to get started with DITHOR. I'm waiting on the books! Then we'll dig in!

 

I didn't find this. I purposely did a unit this spring to see how it would work, and I've started planning the books we're going to use for the fall. I haven't had any problems making it "relevant." As a matter of fact, she has a huge list of books and where they might fit into the program. I wanted to use, "The Secret Garden," but I couldn't decide which genre it fit in. I posted on the boards and they told me :)

 

HTH!

Dorinda

[Shannon C]

I think it would be hard to compare classical and HOD since HOD is not classical nor does it claim to be. If DITHOR doesn't jive with your idea of classical then you probably should look elsewhere for a reading program or skip it altogether...anyway, I use WWE and FLL with HOD. Not a big deal. It works out fine.

[Donna T.]

Well, we're new to HOD and DITHOR, but so far, I'm not seeing alot of literary analysis. My son started DITHOR towards the end of fourth grade and because I just wasn't sure how CM or Classical this curriculum really would be and I didn't want to overwhelm my son (who already absolutely loves to read), plus considering Susan's advice not to steal the child's joy in reading, I decided to have him use the Level 2/3 book rather than the 4/5. So, he's been using the Level 2/3 workbook but the books he has read have been on the 4/5 (and possibly higher) reading level. When I consulted Carrie about this, she questioned me about my goals, gave me some feedback, and then endorsed my desire to use the lower level book. (I love that she is so helpful and supportive - she understands that we all have different goals in mind.)

 

At this level, the child just begins to gently learn about the various genres, discuss the characters in the books, the settings, and how he can apply what he has enjoyed about the book to his own character. The focus seems to primarily be on teaching the child about various character traits through the literature. It does require the child to think and my son was ready for that but the thinking is more along the lines of, "How would you have done such and such differently than the main character?" It really is more of a character training tool at this level, in my opinion. I see that as a benefit. I also have already seen an improvement in my son's ability to articulate his ideas and express them in a way that is pleasing to hear. That's another focus: reading or telling back in a manner that considers the listener. I like that.

 

I really like it and am glad we started it. But, I'm in no rush to begin it with my youngest son. I'm not sure at what point I will begin it with him but I will eventually. My oldest son was almost ten when he started it and he was ready to begin to think about what he was reading and share about it in a different way... something other than just narrating, which is a very valuable tool, of course. I figured out that with narrating he really wasn't digesting the info. in the books that he reads at the level that I thought he should. With narrating, he sometimes just reflected what he had read... he's a good narrator and could do that well, but with DITHOR he is being required to really think... though I still would not call it literary analysis, at this level.

 

I hope that makes some sense!

 

As for the copywork in HOD... I have three guides: Little Hearts, Bigger Hearts and Preparing. There is a variety of copywork in each guide. Selections are taken from the Bible, the books that are scheduled in the guides, and the poetry selections. The studied dictation passages are taken from a book entitled Dictation Day by Day. It was published in 1916 and has levels of dictation passages that increase in complexity and length in a steady manner.

 

WWE... I am using WWE with Little Hearts. My youngest son had already started WWE when I found HOD. He will be a second grader next year and is on the older side of the guide that he is using. So, I think it needed to be beefed up a bit for him. Therefore, he will continue WWE with HOD. If he were a first grader, I may not use WWE... but then again, I may, just because I love Susan's LA recommendations. WWE works just fine with HOD. Carrie has recently discussed the differences in how she approaches narrations and how WWE requires the summaries on the board. You may be able to find that thread through a search. There are some differences, but it's just not a big deal to me. I thought Little Hearts needed additional copywork for a 2nd grader and I want to continue teaching grammar in a gentle way, so we are continuing FLL and WWE with HOD.

 

sorry for all the run on sentences... in a huge hurry. hope this helps.

[Donna T.]

One more thing to consider... DITHOR uses whole, living books, not snippets or excerpts. Some of the literary analysis materials that I have seen just have the children reading snippets.

[Lovedtodeath]

Thank you Donna! That definitely helped me with my questions.

[TC5]

THere's not much actual analysis in the 2/3 level of DITHOR. It's more learning to articulate and comprehend reading aloud, noticing and comparing character traits and enjoying talking about them together, drawing pictures to reflect mood, setting, etc. It isn't too much even if you follow the classical model very closely. It's gentle and it's goal is to produce a love of reading. It does a GREAT job at that. It also will help children with their oral narration skills b/c it helps them in a conversational manner, decide what a reading was all about or how it made them feel or what they would have done differently. My dd7 enjoys DITHOR very much. There's not many worksheets to do on this level either. It's kind of a gentle intro into the terminology (much like many classical methods use) before really digging deep to get the true understaning and application.

 

As you progress in levels, the analysis becomes a deeper analysis and by level 6/7/8 you are already doing a deeper lit study than most high school kids have ever done, and actually enjoying it! It's a wonderful program!

 

I am waiting for Level 4/5 to arrive and am now wondering whether I need to start with Level 2/3? My 8yo son is an avid reader, and we enjoy discussing what he reads, so I wanted something to help us go deeper and enjoy the books more. Will he learn the basics of mood, setting, etc., in Level 4/5? I guess I can add in definitions if I need to, but... I do have the teacher's manual but haven't looked seriously at it yet. Maybe I should. :001_smile:

 

Your summary of Level 2/3 makes me more comfortable using it with my second son in a year or two, so thank you.

[coffeefreak]

Will he learn the basics of mood, setting, etc., in Level 4/5? I guess I can add in definitions if I need to, but... I do have the teacher's manual but haven't looked seriously at it yet. Maybe I should. :001_smile:

 

 

Yes, from what I've seen (we have the books but we haven't used 4/5 yet).

HTH!

Dorinda

[Donna T.]

I am waiting for Level 4/5 to arrive and am now wondering whether I need to start with Level 2/3? My 8yo son is an avid reader, and we enjoy discussing what he reads, so I wanted something to help us go deeper and enjoy the books more. Will he learn the basics of mood, setting, etc., in Level 4/5? I guess I can add in definitions if I need to, but... I do have the teacher's manual but haven't looked seriously at it yet. Maybe I should. :001_smile:

 

Your summary of Level 2/3 makes me more comfortable using it with my second son in a year or two, so thank you.

 

Regardless to which student book you use, you will be covering the same things at the same time. Each student book just requires more output (more writing, more discussion) from the student. But, you'll cover the same topics whichever you use.

[TC5]

Thank you, Dorinda and Donna. That helps.

Teonei