We are definitely going to try this ... it's funny, when she was little, she panicked at the mention of a timer. It was way too much pressure. I guess she still fears it a little bit (well not REALLY, just wants to beat it). If she leaves band, she cannot join again (it's through the public school). I'll check with her instructor to see if he would make an exception. She gets a lot out of it so I hate to give it up. I'm trying to find that middle-ground - supervising without duct-taping her to the chair :D Your advice is appreciated!

I do get defensive when people make assumptions about what I'm doing that are completely untrue. I do feel the need to correct them. I make no apologies for that. It seems that the more detail I give, the more motivated some people are to pick me apart - which is really weird. :001_huh: Obviously I know that it's my responsibility to ensure my DD has a chance to succeed. That's why I am continually reviewing my strategies and occasionally asking for advice and support - although I am questioning the wisdom of that! I did post on the HS board.

I posted this on the K-8 board and got some good advice but also a fair bit of "you're doing it wrong!" It was suggested to me that I cross-post it here for BTDT advice. -------------- My 8th grade DD, turning 14 this month, has never been a strong student. Now, she's smart, but she has never really gotten the knack of working hard. I think it mostly boils down to her inability to give herself a kick in the pants. Frankly, I don't want to do it either! I give her suggestions, tips, and tools, but I do NOT want to hover over her. This is a long-standing issue and she even took a study skills class last year (the least-organized kids were nominated for the class) but almost got kicked out for not being organized enough. :001_huh: This is her first year fully homeschooling. She is having big problems getting her work done efficiently - so she spends her entire day "doing her homework" (ha!) and then feels overwhelmed and like she has too much to do. Honestly, I do NOT think it's too much work. Here's what a typical week looks like: Daily: A History of US: 2-3 chapters, briefly outlined in a notebook Chalkdust Algebra 1: (video + review problems one day, every-other-odd the next day) Tom Sawyer: 2 chapters per day with brief comprehension questions from Lightning Lit Vocabulary from Classical Roots: Daily study Saxophone practice: 20 min (which she rarely gets done) M/W/F: PH Science Explorer: One section and guided study/review worksheets T/Th: Easy Grammar Plus: one lesson w/ me Critical Thinking: one lesson w/ me I know her subjects are a *little* time-intensive, but it's not nearly as rigorous as I'd like. I'm trying to prepare her for high school, as she plans to return to PS next year for 9th. She wastes a ton of time doing NOTHING. A few times I have checked on her and found her curled up in bed asleep with her history book on her face. :glare: Way too many times I have caught her online. She has a puter in her bedroom so she can do her Algebra DVDs and her SmartMusic (interactive practice program) there, and I don't think there's an easy way to turn off 'net access. Here are the tips I have given her: - Try to get all math done between 8:30-9:30 (we leave for her writing class at 9:30) so that you get that out of the way and start the day feeling accomplished - Keep the computer OFF until you absolutely need it for Algebra or music - Make goals for how long your subject should take (60 min. for math, 45 for history, lit and science) and set a timer and try to finish before time's up -Read ahead (lit) on the weekends to lighten the load on the weekdays She need silence/no distractions while she works, and in our house the only quiet place is her bedroom, which clearly isn't working too well. Tonight I forced her to sit at the dining room table after her brothers were in bed, and she still spent probably a half hour complaining that she was too upset, frustrated and overwhelmed to concentrate. I finally told her to go cry in her room about it (nice, I know) because I was tired of listening to her wallow in self-pity and not make any effort to DO anything about it. I finally set a timer and left the room and that got her moving. I sweet-talked her into homeschooling with stories of a rigorous education that would prepare her for H.S. honors classes, as well as free time to pursue her other interests. Well now I'm worried that neither will happen. She signed up for NaNoWriMo (challenge to write a 50k word novel during the month of November) but I don't see HOW she will find time. She also plans to enter a couple of writing & art contests which I really want to encourage. I also added (for the benefit of those who assumed I was banishing her to a separate floor with no adult interaction or opportunity for socialization :001_rolleyes:): Her bedroom is directly off from the living room so she is not far away. I check in about hourly. It's definitely not complete isolation and independence! She has a printed assignment calendar each week to show her her assignments, and she has clearly defined "school hours." 8:30-9:30 - school work (ideally math) 9:30-11:15 - away from home for writing elective 11:15-1:30 - school work (usually history & Lit) 1:30-3:00 - away from home for band 3 + school work. (science or grammar/logic) and finish up other work. I was trying to be flexible and allow her some freedom to choose which subjects to do when, but I do think I need to set a timer and say "time's up, 15 min break and then on to the next subject" so that she has that looming thread of "homework" to motivate her. That's a natural consequence, which I prefer. Also - I have considered ADD but I think her distractibility CAN be managed. Please, if you have any advice I would love to hear it. I have had enough people tell me on K-8 that 6+ hours of "school" including breaks and electives is too much work, and that I should be giving her constant feedback and supervision, both of which I disagree with, so I'm looking for "other" advice. :001_smile:

I disagree that I am expecting adult behavior. I disagree that I should expect to give her constant feedback and supervision. I am giving her independence AND support. I listed the structure and strategies I have given her. Ultimately, it is up to HER to do the work.

Thanks, guys. Sometimes I need that reassurance that it's not that I'm necessarily doing anything wrong, but the age itself is difficult. We do chat about this (frequently). She knows I'm on her side and want to help her. Luckily she is a very self-aware child and wants to get this figured out a well. She's a good kid :)

My primary driving force for homeschooling was to improve the quality of her education. The fact that she's at PS twice a day is a concession. She wants to take the writing class but more importantly, she wants to attend lunch right after it. That is her prime socialization time. Unfortunately band is later in the day so it requires a separate trip. It is what it is, and is not going to change. The schedule I posted accounts for transition times. The band class, for example, is only 45 min. but I have budgeted out 1.5 hours because it takes time to get the car packed, shoes on etc., get there 10 min. early, and then get home and back in the groove. But while it can be seen as disruptive, I think it also breaks up the day in a way that she needs.

Well, we have spent the last three years (when she was in PS) working on managing her homework assignments, so this isn't new. Obviously, it is a step up, so her weaknesses are more of a problem. I never said I didn't want to be involved and I did list the tips and structure I have given her (which I will be increasing) but there is still that point where she needs to sit down, open her book, and read, write notes, etc. That's the part I can't do for her and I can't exactly put her in a neck brace to keep her head pointed down at her desk (or can I?) Not with a wireless router ;) I just need to figure out how to get it to not automatically connect.

You can see my above reply, which addresses many of your points, but in a nutshell: she goes to the PS twice a day for electives (and stays for lunch) to feed her need for social interaction. The problem with making school a "social" time is that she would never be able to focus. I'd love to have her in the same room doing her work, but that won't work. She can't even work w/ headphones (plus I would get annoyed at the singing LOL). Maybe we'll try earplugs. Her bedroom is directly off from the living room so she is not far away. I check in about hourly. It's definitely not complete isolation and independence! She has a printed assignment calendar each week to show her her assignments, and she has clearly defined "school hours." 8:30-9:30 - school work (ideally math) 9:30-11:15 - away from home for writing elective 11:15-1:30 - school work (usually history & Lit) 1:30-3:00 - away from home for band 3 + school work. (science or grammar/logic) and finish up other work. I was trying to be flexible and allow her some freedom to choose which subjects to do when, but I do think I need to set a timer and say "time's up, 15 min break and then on to the next subject" so that she has that looming thread of "homework" to motivate her. That's a natural consequence, which I prefer. I do appreciate your input. Hopefully you understand the situation better.

Wow! What nice support to wake up to! Thank you all. I find a little comfort that she isn't the only kid doing this. I need to figure this out. We have wireless and she has an iMac. I do remember the router password I just have to figure out the settings on the computer. Unfortunately we live in a little one-story house. I school her 3rd grade brother in the dining room, which opens up to the kitchen and LR. I may have her help me move a little table to the kitchen and she can just do her best - she would be in my eyesight but not right next to me ... but she would be next to the snacks. :001_huh: I have tossed this idea around for couple years. My 3rd grader has ADHD (strongly impulsive) and I'm so used to his symptoms :willy_nilly: and I do know that a dx has been a wonderful thing for him. He's not blamed for what he can't help, and he is on medication which keeps him on Earth. I don't have experience with inattentive ADD and I have been hoping she will be able to recognize it as an area she needs to work harder to compensate in. The study skills class, for example, covered things like estimating how long each subject will take, prioritizing the subjects, checking them off, and getting your parent's signature. All useful stuff, most of which she forgot to implement regularly. The poor cat would starve if I didn't remind her to feed him (and I wait as long as I can). She is seeing a counselor (for anxiety issues) and the counselor does specialize in ADD/ADHD. I suppose I need to call and ask for an eval. I think that the clinic can also prescribe treatment (through an MD) but I'm not sure. I would like to find a way to do this. Problem is, I teach her brother as well and he requires most of my attention (ADHD and LD). We have a somewhat narrow window to work with, as my dd goes to the PS twice a day for electives and when she's home in-between, my toddler takes a beautiful, long nap. During that naptime my ds and I work pretty intensely to cover everything and I can only leave him when set up to do something independently. I do check on her, though. Thank goodness my dd's friends are high achievers and motivate her. My dd really wants to do honors classes in HS (so she's not held back by the slackers) so the stakes will only increase. She's not a "slacker" because she DOES want to learn and does care about school ... but she does beat herself up about slacking off. I fall into that category of being an adult who needs Big Brother watching me to make sure I'm on task ... Homeschool Tracker is my Big Brother now, as well as the need to be consistent for my ds. I don't mind holding her accountable, but I don't want to do it FOR her. I really don't think I'm throwing her in the deep end to drown. I am giving her support, tips, and tools, but I feel like she needs to have a little personal responsibility & natural consequences. It's not like she's sequestered all day into a separate part of the house with no interaction. She has 1.5 hours each morning to work, 2 hrs. 15 min. each day to work between electives, and then time after school. She frequently wanders around for bathroom breaks, snacks, and to tell me something funny. I check in on her every hour or so. I did give her a daily schedule (w/ times ) so I will try sticking with that for a few days and see if it's do-able. I need an alarm clock that lets me set like twelve alarms. :001_smile:

My 8th grade DD, turning 14 this month, has never been a strong student. Now, she's smart, but she has never really gotten the knack of working hard. I think it mostly boils down to her inability to give herself a kick in the pants. Frankly, I don't want to do it either! I give her suggestions, tips, and tools, but I do NOT want to hover over her. This is a long-standing issue and she even took a study skills class last year (the least-organized kids were nominated for the class) but almost got kicked out for not being organized enough. :001_huh: This is her first year fully homeschooling. She is having big problems getting her work done efficiently - so she spends her entire day "doing her homework" (ha!) and then feels overwhelmed and like she has too much to do. Honestly, I do NOT think it's too much work. Here's what a typical week looks like: Daily: A History of US: 2-3 chapters, briefly outlined in a notebook Chalkdust Algebra 1: (video + review problems one day, every-other-odd the next day) Tom Sawyer: 2 chapters per day with brief comprehension questions from Lightning Lit Vocabulary from Classical Roots: Daily study Saxophone practice: 20 min (which she rarely gets done) M/W/F: PH Science Explorer: One section and guided study/review worksheets T/Th: Easy Grammar Plus: one lesson w/ me Critical Thinking: one lesson w/ me I know her subjects are a *little* time-intensive, but it's not nearly as rigorous as I'd like. I'm trying to prepare her for high school, as she plans to return to PS next year for 9th. She wastes a ton of time doing NOTHING. A few times I have checked on her and found her curled up in bed asleep with her history book on her face. :glare: Way too many times I have caught her online. She has a puter in her bedroom so she can do her Algebra DVDs and her SmartMusic (interactive practice program) there, and I don't think there's an easy way to turn off 'net access. Here are the tips I have given her: - Try to get all math done between 8:30-9:30 (we leave for her writing class at 9:30) so that you get that out of the way and start the day feeling accomplished - Keep the computer OFF until you absolutely need it for Algebra or music - Make goals for how long your subject should take (60 min. for math, 45 for history, lit and science) and set a timer and try to finish before time's up -Read ahead (lit) on the weekends to lighten the load on the weekdays She need silence/no distractions while she works, and in our house the only quiet place is her bedroom, which clearly isn't working too well. Tonight I forced her to sit at the dining room table after her brothers were in bed, and she still spent probably a half hour complaining that she was too upset, frustrated and overwhelmed to concentrate. I finally told her to go cry in her room about it (nice, I know) because I was tired of listening to her wallow in self-pity and not make any effort to DO anything about it. I finally set a timer and left the room and that got her moving. I sweet-talked her into homeschooling with stories of a rigorous education that would prepare her for H.S. honors classes, as well as free time to pursue her other interests. Well now I'm worried that neither will happen. She signed up for NaNoWriMo (challenge to write a 50k word novel during the month of November) but I don't see HOW she will find time. She also plans to enter a couple of writing & art contests which I really want to encourage. Please, if you have any advice I would love to hear it.

Avyx is Sonlight's publishing brand.

For some kids (including my son) sight words make phonics more confusing because a lot of sight words do not follow the "rules" or follow very complicated rules. My kiddo didn't really read until his 8th birthday so I understand the frustration. He had to reach a level of brain maturity before he could really master phonological awareness and everything before that just bounced off him. After going through that whole maddening experience, I have a pretty well-outlined approach for how I'm going to teach my toddler when he's ready. I'll teach him the phonograms (with LeapFrog Letter Factory and flashcards), really focus on segmenting words and syllabication, and then work on blending. No sight words until it's absolutely needed. I actually find myself segmenting already - that's a cat! /k/ /a/ /t/! I figure I can't start too early. I just discovered Progressive Phonics. It's free! The stories are clever (a la Dr. Seuss) and the child reads the words in red while the parent reads the rest - this keeps the stories from being totally inane! PP includes worksheets and flashcards too. I'm going all-out, supplementing with Evan-Moor phonics worksheets and file folder games because my son is quite dyslexic and needs the help. There are so many programs & supplements available. Six isn't very old to learn to read - your kiddo will get it :) I promise.

We use the Rand McNally Beginner's Atlas and Beginner's Geography and Map Activities books. I think they are just what you are looking for! You could just do the Geography & Map Activities on its own. The activities are quick, engaging, and cover everything you listed.

I have the same question! I assume they are meant to be magnetized, but I don't think I have extra magnets ... poo.

The HIG clearly explains how to use manipulatives to demonstrate concepts. This is the concrete part. It is primary reason I believe that using the HIG is what makes Singapore a complete math program - it covers the teaching side of it, including example problems that you do before you open up the books. The books cover the practicing side. Now that said, I don't think Singapore is a good fit for us, at least not right now. I did want to correct your statement though that Singapore does not cover the concrete step.

I read here that a few years ago, the "system" that was all the rage was plastic crates - one for each child. I tried to do workboxes for two minutes, but for various reasons didn't like the setup. Then I went to a drawer system, which was nice but still required a lot of back-and-forth and I've found that minimizing transitions is important to me. I've also found that it's not important for either of my children to actually see their work all spread out (in fact, for my son, it was too much info!). I now do what many have done - a crate w/ hanging files, with my stuff for the day divided by subject in the hanging files. Everything I need is in one box that can sit on the table all day long and be easily moved when I need to tidy up. It suits our needs. I create a weekly assignment calendar for each child and we use that to mark our progress. It's just enough organization for me, and not more than I need :)

I agree that it sounds contradictory. I find that the skills in CLE are matched pretty well - he's being asked to write words that he's been taught, for example. Putting together my own program from various workbooks has caused different topics to be covered at different times. Sometimes he's expected to use a skill in one workbook that he hasn't yet learned in another. We came upon this a lot between spelling, phonics and grammar. We were using AAS (stuck in level 1 because he hadn't mastered a couple of the spelling rules), ETC 4 (which taught completely different reading rules that AAS didn't cover until level 2) and Easy Grammar 2 (which felt like a list of non-sequitors as it didn't relate to anything else). I'm really curious about WP's LA guides but didn't find a sample. Maybe they line everything up and bridge the gaps? I don't know. I can tell from their website that my son would need elements of LA1 and LA 2. ETA: found a sample :)

I would probably just continue to review syllable division and schedule in pages of ETC 4 1/2 while she does ETC 5 (or whatever you had planned next). If she didn't retain everything from the workbook, maybe at 6 it is just too abstract for her right now. My 8 y/o is on lesson 4 of ETC 4 and I can tell he's following the directions but not totally understanding. The thing is, syllable division matters a LOT in spelling so I think it is an important skill for them to learn sooner rather than later.

I haven't used WP but I have used many of the workbooks they include, and I think they are good choices. I assume the WP guide ties everything in. I am hesitant to use WP LA just because my son's skills are sort of varied, and I'm not sure how easy it is to work ahead in one workbook and behind in another. My own experience using various workbooks for grammar, spelling, phonics and writing are that there can be gaps and overlap between the programs. CLE's LA is all integrated into one set of workbooks (LightUnits). We are in our 2nd week of CLE LA (201) and so far, I really like it. I think it is probably still reviewing what was taught in the 100 level, but I really like the presentation (bite sized pieces of info with simple illustrations and poems) along with regular review. My son enjoys it as well. It is a lot less expensive ($31 for a year's worth of LA, but not including readers). It has already simplified our LA, yet I still feel everything is being covered. It's easy to supplement with extra work in certain areas if you want (parts of speech, word families, more spelling practice) without confusing the program.

I remember reading that since children can learn that a dog says "woof," and a cat says "meow," it's usually not too much trouble for them to learn that "A says /a/" (or ah, ay, aw LOL). I plan on teaching my youngest all the sounds so we can transition to a phonics program more easily.

I wouldn't try it, personally. My son is very much a dsylexic VSL. I had him evaluated for psychoeducational testing and his verbal comp. is really good because he plays a movie in his mind about the story he's hearing. He canNOT recite back a string of words because it's just meaningless to him and his memory can't hold onto that type of information. This is classic for VSLers. From thumbing through FLL, it seems to rely HEAVILY on rote memorization. Memorizing a two-stanza poem would be a miracle for Corbin. Poems and lyrics just goes in one ear and out the other because it's too abstract for him. I don't know how old your DD is, but I can tell you what I've tried for my 3rd grade, 8 y/o son Corbin: Math: Singapore was OK but he needed daily review. He is thriving with Horizons. I don't need to modify it at all for him, and I loosely follow the TM for instructions on how to teach concepts concretely before he does the worksheet. For multiplication facts, he does well with flashcards that have the answer written, so he can memorize the whole fact visually. He uses a lot of mental math tricks (thanks to Singapore) and I think he visualizes a base-ten set when he does the mental math. History: SOTW is right up his alley because he can easily picture the story taking place. In the interest of time, we are using CHOW this year and I find myself re-phrasing and summarizing a LOT to make sure that he understands the story. It's just not as engaging due to its fancy vocabulary and figurative language, IMO. We follow up with Usborne history books and he retains a ton from those. Science - we use REAL Science Odyssey and picture books. Between the illustrated stories and the experiments/demonstrations, he learns a lot and LOVES it. LA - man, this is the subject that has been the hardest. If your daughter reads using a whole-language approach instead of phonics, you may need to back up and teach phonics in order for spelling and writing to improve. That's what I had to do. We have gone (relatively) slowly because I make my son stick with more-or-less decodable readers to reinforce his phonics lessons. To teach the phonograms, AAS worked very well. Beyond that ... ugh. I WANT it to work, I really do, but while it is visual, auditory and kinesthetic, it is not pictorial and that is what would help my son the most. Seeing a word being spelled or spelling it himself does not cement the rule (at all!) because he doesn't have an image to refer to in his mind. I have just started teaching him word families and I am hopeful that will work. Evan-Moor has word family activities (I print them from teacherfilebox.com) and after just a few days he can remember that "ing" is spelled i-n-g because he has had so much practice reading it and seeing pictures of ing words and their spellings. Explode the Code has been a lot of fun for him and he has learned a LOT ... I just wish it correlated to other things! I kind of wish I had started with Primary Phonics because it is more of a complete LA program that covers all the elements in the same order. I recently began using CLE LA with him but the phonics and handwriting overlap our other programs. The grammar and vocabulary are good, though. I print off Evan-Moor worksheets that cover the topics in CLE (currently nouns, prefixes and suffixes, and ff, ll, ss, zz) that he doesn't have down yet. We're in 201 and I think it's reviewing stuff taught in the 100 series. I should have started him in the 100s but I think he will do OK with some catch-up work. Anyway, if could start all over I would start with CLE 100 along with Evan-Moor worksheets to supplement. YMMV, of course! I recommend you have your daughter undergo psychoeducational testing. Subtests can pinpoint her strengths and weaknesses and you will have a better idea of where to start. FWIW, at least some parts of the visualspatial.org website appears to be very outdated - one article I read had sources at least 20 years old. One of the recommendations is to avoid phonics and teach reading by sight words only - which I strongly disagree with. I believe dyslexics NEED phonics in order to have any hope of learning to spell.

It's a guidebook basically - a "buffet" of resources for many different countries around the world and you just choose what you want to do. There are maps and flags included in the book, as well as a few crosswords and some preschoolerish matching games (just a couple). It uses a LOT of religious resources. If that's not your style, I think you're better off just making your own geography program. I made a simple one using Disney's Our World and DK's Children Just Like Me, Geography songs, and videos/books from the library.

CHOW is more succinct (covers world history in 1 book instead of 4) so SOTW obviously goes deeper and with more breadth. In that sense, SOTW may be better for older learners who are better able to draw connections between so much information. With SOTW, I find I can read straight from the book. With CHOW, I am constantly re-explaining and "translating" the old-fashioned verbiage. So in that sense, CHOW is written with a more advanced vocabulary (imo, I'm sure someone here will disagree) which older students may have an easier time with. Which you prefer probably depends on your child's interest in the subject and how big a part you want it to be in your homeschooling. I prefer SOTW -but- I want a quicker run through world history so that we can do US history next year, and so we are using CHOW.

Is it that he does the other subjects with you, and math he does independently? Does he like being timed? Offer a reward/sticker/whatever if he can finish it in 30 min?

:iagree: The "big thing" about Singapore (in the early levels at least; can't speak to the higher levels) is that it moves from concrete --> pictorial --> abstract. The HIG is what instructs the teacher on how to use manipulatives to teach the concrete steps. Without the HIG, the teacher/parent either guesses on how to best demonstrate the topic concretely, or else moves straight into pictorial (textbook and workbook). I also find the HIG invaluable for setting the pace - many times I have been reassured that it's OK if my child still needs me to demonstrate a concept that we've already covered (ie. it doesn't mean my child isn't keeping up).