We are using LToW this year. I can't compare it to the other programs you mentioned, because I'm not familiar with them. In addition to the ANI chart the Invention part of the LToW takes the student step by step through the common topics of invention: definition, comparison, cause and effect, circumstance, and authority. The student is given a list of questions to ask for each topic in order to help develop the content of the paper. I find LToW difficult to teach from because I have trouble finding the actual information that needs to be taught. It seems like sometimes it's in the the teacher's guide and sometimes it's in the student pages, and sometimes it seems to just talk around what you need to teach with actually telling you what you need to teach. I don't have a lot of time for pre-reading and study of the materials so maybe I'm missing something. We will finish at least LToW 1 in spite of my difficulties because I haven't seen any other curriculum that covered these things as well. Also while it is difficult for me to teach, I don't think that it is particularly difficult for ds to use. If someone knows of another program that covers this that is easier to use and appropriate for middle school, I would like to check it out.

In addition to running the numbers have you asked ds to do a study on what the Bible says about debt? Proverbs 22:7 is a good place to start.

I didn't follow WTM or SWB exactly, but I was and still am heavily influenced by her ideas in deciding how to approach writing with my dc. With my dc we have a very much parts to whole approach to writing: K: we focus on making letters (handwriting) 1st: we focus on making words (spelling) and continue handwriting practice including copywork 2nd: we focus on making sentences (grammar) and continue spelling and handwriting 3rd: we continue developing sentence writing skills and introduce the paragraph in grammar and continue the other skills 4th: this is the year we really focus on paragraph development primarily using IEW materials and continue working on the other skills. 5th: we begin to build paragraphs into 2-5 paragraph papers using IEW while still working on handwriting, spelling and grammar. 6th: this is where ds is now learning the structure of a persuasive paper using Lost Tools of Writing. Ds, following this sequence, still hates handwriting, tolerates and does well with the persuasive papers and really enjoys creative writing when I give him a break from the persuasive writing. He does well with paragraph structure, sentence variety and vocabulary. He also does pretty well with plot development and does ok with character and setting development in a short story. All the way through we have done lots of informal narrations many of them in the form of "Tell Daddy about ... " and a few more formal narrations where I write down and occasionally have them copy what they narrate. Ds is about a year ahead of SWB writing program so it's never really been an option for us. Dd is now in 3rd and will continue on the same sequence as ds for as long as it is working for her. For us, I did not think the "more is better" approach used by many public schools was an efficient and productive use of our time. I preferred SWB's approach to laying the foundational skills before requiring very much writing. It seems to have worked well for ds so far as believe that his writing skills are above grade level and he enjoys it much more than I ever did (in public school); I hated writing! Yuck! But I'm very glad that ds does not share my attitude on writing.

We are in our 6th year of CC this year and I have always selected curriculum to loosely correlate with the CC cycle topics. Here is how it worked out for us: Cycle 1 (ds in 1st) Ancient History using Sonlight Core 1 and Life Science using Living Learning Books Plants Animals and the Human Body Cycle 2 (ds-2nd) Middle Ages with SotW 2 Earth science with Living Learning Books Earth and Space and Apologia Astronomy Cycle 3 (ds-3rd, dd-K) American History with Sonlight Core 3 and a little Core 4 up to about 1900 for ds. Physical Science using 3 or 4 of the God's Design for Science Chemistry and Physics books for ds. Dd used picture books from the library as time permitted. Cycle 1 (ds-4th, dd 1st) Ancient History with Tapestry of Grace Year 1 upper grammar and lower grammar. Easy Classical Life Science for Ds and Living Learning Books for Dd. Cycle 2 (ds-5th, dd-2nd) Middle Ages & Early Modern with My Fathers World RtR and part of Exp-1850 for both dc. God's Design for Earth and Space for both dc. Cycle 3 (ds-6th, dd-3rd) US History and World History 1800-present finishing Exp-1850 and using SotW3 & 4 and the Children's Encyclopedia of American History. 3 books chosen from God's Design for Chemistry and God's Design for Physics for both and supplemented with Exploring the World of Chemistry and Exploring the World of Physics by John Hudson Tiner for ds. This is where we are now. It requires some tweaking to get 4 years worth of history done in 3, but I liked keeping it loosely correlated and having my dc complete two history & science cycles before beginning Challenge. The science was actually easier to fit in because we just chose 3 or 4 of the God's Design books to cover during cycle 3 from their Physics and Chemistry series. Hope this helps,

We have these as well and really like them:

This is what I do except I stir in crushed pineapple instead of the maple syrup.

I know, I know... It's my son who refuses to wear long pants jeans except when forced, but who needs to have a few pairs of long jeans for those rare really cold days/snow days and the occasional other activity where long pants are required. He wears denim shorts 90+% of the time even when everyone around him has switched to long pants in order to stay warm. Of course all the wear and tear that usually happens to the knees of the jeans ... well it happens to his knees. :crying: I'm not sure this is the best solution, but it's been working for us for a few years now. We usually end up passing along barely worn jeans and 1 or 2 that are pristine. I think most of jeans come from Target for around $12 a pair.

I think the cultural stuff would be fine, even expected. As for the religious side of the culture and learning prayers, I think it depends on the age of the children it's targeted to. For example I don't think I would be real keen on lower elementary school children memorizing Muslim prayers or passages of the Koran in an intro to Arabic curriculum. On the other hand I think I would expect a high school language curriculum to study and memorize significant literature in the language and that would include the Koran and Muslim prayers if the language were Arabic. I would expect it to be studied for its linguistic, literary and cultural value the way a non-Christian might study the Bible rather than in a proselytizing or propagandizing way though. I did not vote though because my answer would be "it depends"

In general the tutors introduce the material and then we work on it the next week. But... In any program that is more than 3 years old and with students in 2nd grade or higher there is the potential for some of the students to already know some or even most of the memory work from having already done it 3 years before. An older student who is new to an established program where most of his classmates have done it before may benefit from reviewing the material before the class so that he/she is not always the one that doesn't know the material or the last one to get it. Also the timeline cards and the math are the same every year so any student who has been in the program for a year or more already probably already has a good handle on those two subjects. Do what works best for your family and gives your student the confidence they need to participate in and enjoy the class.

We use a 3 year cycle loosely correlating our history with the current Classical Conversations Cycle.

I'm not the one your addressing this to, but I think I can address at least some of the potential issues. The biggest issues that I've heard come up with regard to very young kids in CC is that the material and especially the tutor training is targeted at older kids. I've heard that in at least some of the tutor training sessions (disclaimer I'm not a Foundations tutor and never have been) they almost discourage adapting the material and methods to the youngers. Having said that, my ds started in 1st grade (in a class of boys ranging from K4-1st) and my dd started at 4 in a class of 4s and 5s. The tutor for ds class was experienced with CC and very good with boys and did an awesome job making the material and activities boy friendly and age appropriate. The tutor for dd was new that year and struggled a little in the beginning, but quickly found her feet and also did an excellent job with the young class. It really depends on the tutor and how much effort they put into adapting activities to the age group. Also when you start at age 4 you have to expect that some, even a lot, of the material is going to go over their heads and be pure memory work with no context or understanding. No 4 year old is going to understand Latin noun declensions, for example. This really bothers some people, but others have no problem with this kind of memory work. My children have thrived under this approach and been able to build on and use the memory work foundation laid by CC as they have gotten older. Another issue that often crops up with any age group but especially the younger ones is class room behavior. Some tutors are better at managing the class than others and some parents are more willing to step in and insist that their kid behave than others. If you have tutor less adept at classroom management and parents who don't set high standards of behavior or aren't present, it can really be a recipe for chaos. A well run CC class makes learning the memory work a lot of fun. My kids don't even think of it as school--it is a fun day to be with their friends, even though they have memorized far more than they would have if I'd tried to do it at home. A chaotic CC class is, well, a lot of money down the drain.

I think it would work just fine. We are getting ready to start our 6th year of CC and I have never tried to line up our history or science curriculum exactly with CC. At best I'm able to loosely correlate broad subjects--like studying US History during cycle 3. We've always just used CC as memory work and as we came across a CC topic in our other subjects I would reference the relevant memory work. FWIW we used SL core 1 (Ancient History) when ds was in 1st grade during cycle 1, and we did core 3 and a little of core 4 (US History) when ds was in 3rd during cycle 3. We eventually moved to more WTM-style history, but we still use many of the SL books; they are awesome.

It depends on the child of course, but some children certainly can do R&S English 3 in the second grade. I started both my dc with R&S English 2 in the 1st grade and continued on 1 level each year. We did all of level 2 and about half of level 3 entirely orally. For the second half of 3 and the first half of 4 I made worksheets from the exercises that required the same thinking, but minimized the handwriting. (Yes, I know there are worksheets you can buy, but they did not work well for us--the spaces for writing were too small and cursive was introduced too early). Anyway, by midway through 4, ds's handwriting skills had caught up and he was able to continue on doing the odd Written and Review Exercises as written. He is now doing R&S English 7 as a 6th grader. Dd is now working her way through 4 as a 3rd grader. So I would say that level 3 is definitely doable by some 2nd graders if you make allowances for handwriting skills (if needed). Also being ahead in grammar now doesn't mean you have to stay a year ahead until you finish grammar. You can always slow down and do half a book per year or take a year and do something else if the books eventually get too difficult working a grade ahead. My advice would be to work at the level that fits best now and slow down later if it becomes necessary.

Last year with my dd in 2nd grade I set it as my goal to establish the discipline of working on the memory work 15-20 minutes 3-4 days per week. For most of the year I really didn't think she would make Memory Master until I realized at about week 19 that she had all the memory work up to that point. She had to work really hard (more than 15-20 minutes per day) to get those last weeks memorized in time, but by that time she really wanted Memory Master and was highly motivated to work hard for it. So with a young child I would just work at it for a fixed amount of time each day (maybe 10-20 minutes, depending on age and interest) and develop the discipline and skill in memory work. If that turns out to be enough to get Memory Master great, if not then just reward them at home for working hard all year at it.

Wow, what a great evaluation of these programs. Thanks for taking the time post. :001_smile::001_smile::001_smile:

Here's what my ds will be doing. He's sixth grade age wise but more of a 7th grader academically. Grammar: Rod & Staff 7 Writing: Lost Tools of Writing Literature: MCT A World of Poetry, Progeny Press Tom Sawyer, Reading list for 19th and 20th century lit Spelling: Sequential Spelling finish 3, start 4 Math: AoPS Intro to Algebra Science: God's Design for Chemistry, World of Chemistry, biographies History: finish MFW Exp to 1850, SotW 4, maybe Critical Thinking in US History Latin: Latin for Children C Logic: finish Building Thinking Skills book 2, Critical Thinking Book 1 Art: God and the History of Art Music: Piano lessons Memory Work: Classical Conversations, Junior Bible Quiz Typing: tbd Extracurricular Activities: Boy Scouts, Swim team, church activities

Thanks for these alternatives. When I searched on Netflix for North & South it found two: a 2004 BBC series based on a novel by Elizabeth Gaskell and a 1985 miniseries based on John Jakes novels. Which do you mean? Or are they both good? Also I found a 1993 movie called Gettysburg and a 2004 documentary called Gettysburg: Three Days of Destiny and several others with similar titles. Thanks

Perhaps "put out" was the wrong choice of words. Amazon has Vision Forum listed as the publisher of Balancing the Sword. That is where I got my information and what motivated me to ask the question. I am pleased to hear that it just sticks closely to the text of the Bible without advocating one particular doctrine or philosophy. Thanks for the links. I will read them when I have a little more time.

This looks like a phenomenal resource for Bible Study. It is put out by Vision Forum. Does anyone know how strongly their philosophy comes through in these books? Thanks,

Honestly, I think that is a difficult age spread to combine. My dc just finished 2nd and 5th, too, and I find that I really can't use the same resources for both. If it's appropriate for 5th it's way over the head for 2nd. If it's appropriate for 2nd it's too simple or not enough new info for 5th. I heard all the advice to combine dc as much as possible especially for content subjects like history and science, and I tried that in the beginning. But, in my house I have to settle for keeping them on the same general topic so that experiments, projects and activities are relevant to both. For 3rd & K and 4th & 1st I read their subjects aloud to each of them separately so it took twice as much of my time to begin with. Now my older dc is so much more independent and does his reading independently and we meet for discussion. For example, last year (for 1st and 4th) when we studied plants I used Apologia Botany with ds and the Usborne First Book of Nature and Usborne Science with Plants with dd. We picked and chose experiments from both resources.

My son uses Latin for Children independently. He watches the dvds, does the workbook, the history reader, and some thing from the activity book on his own. I grade his work and occasionally have to help with the history reader translations. He started Primer A at 9 (4th grade) and Primer B at 10. He really enjoys it, but wants to switch to Greek for Children after he completes Primer C next school year.

We don't continue working on the memory work through the summer, but we will start in working on the last 4-6 weeks of memory work as soon as we start back to school (about 4-5 weeks before CC starts for us). We do this to help solidify the last few weeks of memory work that don't have as much time for review before Memory Masters testing begins. Both my kids are on their 2nd time through Cycle 3 and want to get MM next year.

Here's my plan for dd for the fall: Language Arts MCP Word Study D, MCP Spelling D, R&S English 4, HWT Math Singapore 3B & 4A History SotW finish 3 & then do 4 Science God's Design for Chemistry or Physics (TBD), library books Extras Classical Conversations, Piano Lessons, maybe Spanish (TBD), Mindbenders, Building Thinking Skills, maybe Art (TBD)

I've used with Apologia's Astronomy and Botany and God's Design for Earth and Space and parts of God's Design for Chemistry and God's Design for the Physical World. I agree with much of what has already been written. I didn't use more of the Apologia because I wanted Earth Science, Chemistry and Physics and I couldn't stomach so much life science. The books are full of detail written in an understandable way. Overall I thought the Apologia experiments were fewer and more involved, but very good and very relevant. There are more God's Design experiments, but they are mostly simpler and less involved, but mostly still very good and very relevant, although some are more crafty and some are word searches etc. The newest edition God's Design for Life and God's for Earth and Space lends itself to a broader age range because they have added the beginner section for K-2 grades and extensions for 7-8 grades. I did supplement the Earth and Space beginners section for my 2nd grader when I had time with Magic School Bus and other books from the library, but didn't worry about it when there wasn't time. The God's Design Chemistry and Physics series don't have the beginner section. I did parts of them with ds when he was in 3rd. Despite the fact that he is sciency and works above grade level a lot of the material went over his head. We are planning to use them again next year (ds in 6th, dd in 3rd) and ds is excited about redoing them. I am planning to supplement with simpler library books for dd, though. And yes, despite the kerfluffle, we are still planning to use Story of the World and God's Design for Science next year. They are both excellent curricula that work very well for our family.

I think it can be used without emphasizing the style checklists. I think those checklists are really great for kids who are stuck in a rut and really struggle with incorporating a variety of elements and interesting vocabulary in their writing. I've been through two years of IEW with ds, now. In the beginning of the first year we did the checklists until he understood all the elements and was incorporating them in his writing. After that I stopped using the checklist. Now when I grade the style aspect of his writing I just look for variety in sentence structure, interesting vocabulary and a poetic element or two (simile, alliteration...). It really depends on the child; some really need the repeated practice using each of the sentence openers and dress ups. Others use most of those elements naturally or with minimal practice. Use the program in the way that best suits your child's strengths and weaknesses.