Wait, you're saying that clicking around on the forums isn't productive!? ;) Maybe I need to try WasteNoTime, as I thought I was sitting down at the computer to work on the powerpoint for my WTM conference presentation and instead find myself here...

Amen and amen! Thanks for your thoughts on vocabulary, too.

As a teacher and tutor, the main reason I've seen kids struggle is because they stop believing that math makes sense. They start to see it as a magical set of recipes that gets you the right answer, but not as an interconnected set of ideas that all have a reason for existing. When I taught fifth-grade, I would even make one of my strugglers write "Math makes sense!" at the top of every page to remind her not to start panicking and wildly guessing but to use her brain and THINK! There's no easy way to undo this, but the main approach is to teach concepts (not recipes), assign fewer problems and encourage your child to think about them carefully. A lack of number sense also can be a huge hindrance. This year, I'm tutoring a wonderful upper elementary student who was taught in public school to count every addition and subtraction problem (with a program called touchmath) instead of mastering the addition and subtraction facts (to the point that she didn't even know right away what 3+6 is). As a result, she could perform the steps of multi-digit addition and subtraction (with counting) but had no sense of what numbers meant and how they related to each other. She hit an absolute wall once she started on multiplication. She and I went back to the very beginning, using the Math Mammoth Blue series along with the AL Abacus, and worked through the addition and subtraction worktexts. Since September, she's mastered all the addition and subtraction facts and can do two-digit mental math with ease, and now is cruising through the multiplication tables. Her entire attitude about math has changed, too. She now believes that she can actually do it, because she's not just wandering in a dark room hoping someone will tell her how to get the answer.

If they're complaining about the amount of work in MM, I suspect they'd feel the same way about CLE since it also has quite a few problems per lesson.. I second the suggestion to look into Beast or Singapore for fewer, more interesting problems.

The Lord's Prayer Matthew 22:36-40 (What is the greatest commandment?) 1 Corinthians 13

One more thought...if she's mastered multi-digit multiplication pretty well, there's absolutely no reason she needs to do that many practice problems on a regular basis. I'm not familiar with the format of MUS, but could she just do one or two multi-digit multiplication problems for maintenance each day and then focus on learning the rest of the lesson?

Hey there. :) You may have already considered this, but how about if you just do half a lesson each day (or even a fourth of a lesson each day)? That said, unless there's an attitude problem or other behavior issue that needs to be addressed, in my opinion tears mean it's time for a change. (Especially if mom's the one who's crying.) There's nothing wrong with switching if you feel like it'll bring new energy and joy into your math time (and in fact, I wrote a whole post about it last week.)

You're absolutely not nuts! Figuring out when to help and when to let kids struggle is one of the most important things to figure out as homeschool parents. I don't want my son to be unable to do work without hand-holding, but I also want to teach him well and enjoy the process together. This is definitely a challenge with kids who are cruising along well in math. Someone recently posted about how we have to keep in mind that when kids are advanced in math, they may be able to handle the math in the curriculum they're using, but they may not be able to handle the other work expectations (like the language, length of problem sets, amount of writing, etc.) I found this explanation so helpful. It's okay to help our advanced kids navigate these work expectations that are above them developmentally, and the way you helped your son understand the difficult wording is a great example of that. (Scribing and making lessons shorter are other examples of that that I've used.) From what you describe, it sounds like your son is doing great, and the strategy you used to help him understand the tricky problem is right on. Solving a simpler problem is something that he can even apply himself as he gets older (and is sometimes suggested as a strategy for kids solving math competition problems.) The main reason to stop and hang out with a concept is because your child doesn't understand it. When he's mastering the concepts as thoroughly you describe, I don't see any reason to stop because of word problem wording issues.

Yeah, I felt like I was reading Greek at the beginning! It's gotten a bit easier, but I did just get the audio from the library because I'm not sure I have the stamina for the whole thing.

I'm reading the Pyle version aloud right now, as part of Ambleside year two. The language was very difficult for all if sat the beginning, but we've gotten used to it and are enjoying it a lot. I figure it's great for getting my kids ready for understanding Shakespeare and other archaic language.

Seconding the Beast recommendation. I began it with my math-loving son when he was six-and-a-half, and it's worked very well so far to keep him challenged and interested in math. My main caution with any curriculum that you use early is that you always have to keep in mind that while your child may be at the book's math level, he's not necessarily at the work habits level that the book expects. So, for my son, that meant that I needed to sit and really work through Beast with him to make sure he was catching all the directions and focusing. He also still needed me to scribe for him at that stage, although now at age eight, he no longer resists writing so much. Saxon would have the same issues--your son may be ready to do the math in 54, but he might not be ready to do that many problems per lesson or that much writing. If you'd like more info on Beast, I wrote a review here and a peek into one of our lessons here.

I love, love, love the Rightstart card games, but I'm not sure they're quite what you're looking for. They provide a lot of good practice with the concepts that are already taught in the RightStart series, but they don't teach the strategies that kids need to use as they practice. Also, most of the addition and subtraction games are limited to practicing single-digit facts, not multi-digit computation like you mentioned upthread. Just my two cents--the kit is wonderful, but I'd hate for you to spend the money on it and not have it be what you're looking for.

Oh, and they have percents, too.

How about the Key to Fractions and Key to Decimals books? They're very well-done books that approach decimals and fractions from the same conceptual/understanding-oriented approach that Fred uses, but with lots of practice with the basics. I used them when I taught fifth-grade and was very pleased with how well they helped my students both understand fractions and decimals and compute fluently with them.

I think a case could be made that any of those are the most important--it depends on what your family's priorities and goals are. Whichever would make your life easiest might be the best bet.

Apples haven't fallen far from trees here, either. :) I've had to ban outright any question that begins with "Why can't we...?" because I've decided I don't have the energy to list every single reason we can't do activity xyz right now, buy item abc from the grocery store, etc.

A lot of people use it as a supplement, but I use it as a comprehensive stand-alone curriculum. It fully covers the standard, grade-level topics, but with much more deep thinking and problem-solving. I have a full review here and an example of a lesson here. Any particular questions you have about it?

Math Mammoth Blue Series, Addition and Subtraction 2-A and 2-B. They go beyond mental math and include written column addition as well, but since they're so inexpensive, you can just skip those and focus on the mental math strategies. It's not ideal, but it's the best mental math supplement I've been able to find. These cover two-digit addition and subtraction. I haven't used the higher levels yet, but they look like they have similar content for bigger numbers.

Yes! Beast or MEP would probably be perfect. Quality over quantity. If you're both so unhappy, a change in math is necessary, stat.

My eight-year-old is very similar. He hates practicing foundational skills and wants to get straight to the more interesting part. For him, I explain my reasons with a smile, discuss it briefly, and then move on to getting the work done, since I know he's already decided that he doesn't like it and he'll only try to negotiate his way out of it. Moving to CLE language arts a few months ago precipitated quite a tantrum, but once he realized he was stuck with it, he acclimated just fine and now gets the work done without arguing. On the plus side, your first grader will likely love Beast Academy once he gets to it. And I figure this creative thinking and ability to negotiate will be very useful skills down the road, as long as they don't drive me crazy in the mean time. :)

I share your reservations about LoF and KA being sufficient, and I wouldn't feel comfortable using them exclusively for my eight-year-old either. Stick to your guns! But, that doesn't solve your problem. Do you think MM is truly not working for her, or is she just trying to exert some control over the situation? If you're equally comfortable with MM and BA, giving her a choice between them is fine, but you should probably be prepared to stick with that choice no matter what.

Knowing the song, I'm afraid I'm going to have your children's version stuck in my head for the rest of the night. That is hilarious--and very true to the rhythm! I can see how they were turned off by the easy intro lessons, but you're right that there's some useful concepts that they could use some exposure to as they transition mentally from Saxon. The spiral approach makes it tough to compact, but it's definitely do-able. I'm assuming that your kids are familiar with the addition facts (but perhaps are not totally solid on them?) and are familiar with multi-digit addition (but could use some conceptual reinforcement?) If so, taking a look at my first edition level B, I think I would go in this order. Stage 1: learning how useful side 1 of the abacus is for math facts and mental addition: -Facts with 9, lesson 61-62 (In fact, this lesson might be a good intro to side 1 of the abacus, since it shows how useful the abacus can be for these facts.) -Two-fives strategy, lesson 66-67 (again, another good one for demonstrating the use of the abacus) -Facts with 8s, lesson 69-70 -Mental math with two-digit numbers, lessons 73-75 Stage 2: learning how math games can be both challenging and fun: On the Number game, lesson 77 Rows and Columns, lesson 79 Corners Game, lesson 60 Stage 3: learning how to use side 2 of the abacus and reinforce conceptual understanding of addition: Trading with the Base-10 pictures, lesson 34 The sequence of adding four-digit numbers on the abacus, lessons 39-40 Days in a year and dishes in the cupborad, lesson 47 More place value and adding four-digit numbers, lessons 89-91 Obviously, these are just suggestions--you know your kids' needs much better than I do! You could add in some of the geometry and measurement if you want, too. It's all way out of order from the way Joan Cotter intended it, but I think it might make more sense in your situation. RightStart is a wonderful curriculum. (My many superlatives about how wonderful it is are here.) Hopefully your kids will someday match your enthusiasm. But either way, they're pretty fortunate to have a mom who's so excited about math. :)

There are two main potential difficulties with switching into Singapore. First, it's scope and sequence is quite a bit different than most other programs. There's a lot of work on the multiplication facts in second grade (rather than the usual third grade) and multi-digit multiplication and division happen mostly in third grade (as opposed to division being in fourth grade). So, as with any curriculum switch, you have to make sure your child takes a placement test and you put him or her in the right book. You also might need to detour backwards to a particular topic to make sure your child masters it. Second, Singapore uses a very different approach to math than Saxon and Horizons. (You may already know this if you've been researching, but in case you don't, it's very important to keep in mind.) Instead of an incremental approach, topics are studied in-depth to mastery all at once. Even more significantly, the focus on kids understanding the concepts behind the math (rather than a focus on practicing the procedures) requires that kids think about the math more deeply and that you teach it in a very different way. There's a bit of a learning curve for both parent and child, and the longer a child has learned math the traditional way, the more difficult the learning curve could be. That depends a lot on how flexible your child is, and how much your child has already been thinking through the concepts. In my opinion, it's never too late--it's more a matter of how much time you want to invest in learning how to teach a new approach and how much you want to work with your kids to help them learn math in a new way. The other drawback is that Singapore Math ends in 6th grade, so if you switched your rising fifth-grader, you would be looking at a switch again in a couple of years. Singapore is an excellent curriculum, and if your kids are zooming through Saxon and Horizons, they might really thrive with the deeper presentation of concepts that Singapore provides. I have a review of Singapore here if you'd like more info about how the program works, and I just wrote an an article about switching curriculum (here) for some thoughts on how to ease the transition.

Mystie Winckler has a great series of posts on homeschooling without a school room. It looks like she mostly uses bins on shelves, with specific bins for specific blocks of time.

Here's what the author says. (It's buried in her FAQ.) Regarding pacing: For pacing, check how many actual lesson pages there are to study (this is mentioned on the web page of the book, below the cover image), and how many days of school you have in mind. Then to get how many pages per day you would need to study, divide the number of pages by the number of days. The user guide for each grade has this information also. Assuming you have school 5 days a week, about 40 weeks a year, the student should study between 1 and 2 pages each day. If you homeschool for less than 200 days a year, you will probably need to study 2 or more pages a day. Please allow some time also for tests and cumulative reviews. For example: Grade level Page count Number of days in your school year Number of days for tests and reviews Pages to study per day Pages to study per week 1st grade 249 200 10 1.3 6.7 2nd grade 281 200 15 1.5 7.6 3rd grade 321 200 15 1.7 8.7 4th grade 353 200 15 1.9 9.5 5th grade 346 200 12 1.84 9.2 6th grade 323 200 20 1.8 9.0 So as a general guideline, about 1 1/2 pages a day is sufficient for grades 1-2, about 1 3/4 pages for grade 3, and fourth, fifth, and sixth graders should aim to do about 2 pages a day. However, you need to pace it depending on how the lessons go. Sometimes your student might be able to do several pages in a day, and sometimes the student cannot do but one page. Also, in some topics you might be able to go through the pages quicker, for example in the chapters about clock, because the clock pictures are so large that one page does not have many problems. Regarding review: The program includes mixed review lessons (one near the end of each chapter) and additional (separate) cumulative review lessons that you can use when needed. Both of these cover a mix of topics that have already been studied. You can also use the worksheet maker to generate additional worksheets for practice. This worksheet generator requires an Internet access. If you don't have Internet at home, you can use it in an Internet cafe, public library, or at a friend's house, and save the worksheets on a flash drive to print later. Also, all the major concepts, such as addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, decimals, and fractions get reviewed in a sense because they are used all the time. For example, a child will keep using the multiplication tables when studying division and multi-digit multiplication. The student will use various addition and subtraction strategies in word problems about money and measuring and when studying place value. Division facts are used in long division. I never make all the word problems to match the lesson exactly. By this I mean that a word problem found in a multiplication lesson might require both multiplication and addition to solve. Similarly, word problems in the other chapters (such as money, measuring, division, or fractions) will include the usage of multiplication. The word problems in the curriculum constantly use important concepts that have already been learned.