I find it helpful to have a plan or a reason for reading classics. For example, - Follow the Well Educated Mind, as someone mentioned - Chronological reading, especially if your kids are following chronological history, so delving into the ancients when your kids do, or American literature when they are there - Easy-to-difficult reading, starting with shorter novels to get to know a few well-known authors like Mark Twain and Steinbeck (e.g. The Pearl), so you have some opinions on literature and authors to start out with - Following a Teaching Company course I'm learning from, and reading the books as they come up Julie

Gina, Happy new year to you, as well! I'll throw in 2 cents to the brainstorming session for your now 5th grader. I see 3 options being discussed: 1. Rome-Reformation for 6th, then American for 7th/8th? This would be nice if you just visited Rome. Yes, there's mapping and geography awareness in all MFW years. I think that comes out of the Hazells' missionary experience. So you don't need to squeeze in ECC just for the mapping. 2. 6th: MFW Rome-Reformation 7th: Notgrass America the Beautiful (to cover American in one year) 8th: MFW ECC I kind of hate jumping around in curriculums... Well, I'm biased towards our good experience, but especially if you don't like jumping around, I would choose RTR/EX1850/1850MOD over this plan. The American history over 2 years allows world history to be incorporated (via SOTW) alongside studies of most of the 13 colonies, info on all 50 states plus committing to memory their locations and capitals, and every president. Your student would still have good prep for high school, with the country report in EX1850 and the outlining experience in 1850MOD. A couple ideas from ECC 7-8th grade could be added *if* needed (maybe current events & a country report). My ds did 1850MOD in 7th (2nd semester) / 8th (1st semester), and really enjoyed delving into topics of his own interest, like the stock market. 3. next year with 6th grader, do ECC (at jr. high level) then, 7th in RTR 8th in 1850MOD. then in 9th grade starts high school at AHL I also like this plan. I also see the overlaps that Crystal mentioned. Plus, ECC is a nice break from world history and really cements the idea that all people are interesting and of value to God. Not sure what you've been using for ancients, so not sure where your kids are on that, but if they at all worry about world events, this would be a nice path. Just joining in the brainstorming session, Julie

We also used Exploring Countries & Cultures in 8th grade, and it was a nice foundation to the high school years. The 7-8th grade grid reports and such, that Crystal mentioned, included plenty to explore at our house. I don't know about others "hating" ECC, but I do think it's an adjustment for some to realize it's written for grades 3-8, so you will be adapting up or down as needed. That said, I didn't even have my son do every report or research worksheet scheduled in 8th grade, because I enjoyed having some room in 8th to work hard on writing, do some "shop class," some last-minute field trips we might not have time for later, and plenty of time to get used to algebra and textbook science. I also added the book of Proverbs to his Bible. I'm sure there are other geography programs out there, too, but this one was good for us, both meaty and God-honoring. I did tend to post on the MFW Ideas forum about things we delved into further with an 8th grader. HTH, Julie

Interesting topic. I pretty much agree that delayed debt doesn't necessarily affect kids today, so I wouldn't personally require debt for teaching purposes. My experience is that my parents had various rules about college costs. And we kids were just in general raised to know that their money was earned by them and would be spent according to their own rules and plans. My sister and I were perhaps atypical because we wanted to get out of the house ASAP, and only later decided to attend college. I actually moved out before I graduated high school, and when I came home to save for a summer and go to college, my parents said they would pay my tuition, but would only help with living expenses after I supported myself for a year, did well in college, and generally showed them I was serious. So year 1 was parents pay tuition only, and years 2-4 were tuition plus a small living stipend (I think it was enough to cover rental of a small room during the school year only, and I paid for food, laundry, etc). Dorms and food plans and such were not in my family's vocabulary; college was a grown-up thing and not a social experience. My sister, on the other hand, didn't get any help from our parents because she was over their magic age of 25, when they stopped offering support to a new college student. I guess they figured she was an independent adult by then (not to mention a single mother). It didn't totally make sense to us, but again we were raised to know that their money was theirs. And in the end, she got into a short-lived program for getting mothers to work and she became an R.N. with debt for the 5th year she required to make up for goofing off/lack of confidence in high school. With my kids, I don't necessarily have an age limit but they know I have a reasonable price limit. My oldest went to school out-of-state so it was expensive. We agreed to pay for that first year but may not have much more to offer after that. After year 1, he considered stopping school for a while to earn money, but after our appeals to the school, ds's jobs, Army Reserves grants, good grades scholarships, and student loans, he was able to continue straight through. My youngest may be in a similar position and we are considering moving him out there for a while before he starts college, not sure yet, but everyone definitely has always known that money isn't endless at our house (this was all true even before illness and such made it more obvious). I just share those situations to show that a variety of situations can work and not ruin the kids by it - including situations where the parents could pay but choose to set limits. I know kids don't always get it yet, but parents taking care of their own finances, retirement, etc., are still doing their children a favor. And even though my siblings and I might not always agree with my parents' rules, we now notice that our parents' financial rules resulted in more self-supporting adult children than some of the other families we grew up with. Julie

Thanks, happy new year to you all, as well! From another probable empty nester this year...

I personally think it's enough. The first argumentative essay in AHL has what I consider complete instructions on setting up the essay. That's not to say that all 9th graders will absorb it all without adult supervision. But I'm one who feels writing can't go anywhere without interacting with a reader, no matter what program you use. If you feel out of your league in critiquing it even with the AHL guidance, then I've seen plenty of folks post their student's essay for review on the Yahoo group, the MFW board, or if you're brave you can do it here on WTM (where the bar is very high :) ). After that first essay, there are grammar lessons that are applied to the student's own writing, such as avoiding personal pronoun subjects. I love that the student instantly applies these to their own writing, especially to argumentative writing, rather than just doing a workbook assignment and forgetting. Then the next argumentative essays gradually have more complex topics. There isn't a ton of additional teaching, but there is the previous teaching to go back to and focus on areas of need (things like thesis statements, topic sentences, all the usual things that kids forget). As far as other writing, the history essays are pretty casual and content-based, and then there are a couple of more creative writing opportunities in the middle of the year, for those kids who want to get creative. HTH, Julie

No problem on the name, Jule is actually a nickname some call me. It's better than "July" which is the way most guys spell my name, never connecting it with the month LOL. Thanks for your kind words. I am okay. I am helped by chatting with grown-ups on boards :) Julie

I think the concerns about "integrated math" are warranted. Things like transferring schools, and schools that dumb down curriculum, only get worse with an integrated program, in my experience. Our local district is VERY poor and used an integrated math when oldest went there. I seriously think our district tried it because they thought it would be easier. They claimed it was more "applied" but my son and I both felt the "widgets for sale" types of problems were lame and cluttering up the teaching of concepts. And basically, it allowed them and the textbooks to muddy the waters enough to get nowhere fast. My oldest also suffered from the transfer issue. He took Algebra I & II in 8th grade through a special university program in our state (UMPTYMP) and then decided to rejoin his high school in 9th. In order to learn any geometry, he had to join the integrated math for the rest of his years there, going back to very basic algebra. Fortunately, after one year, a teacher pulled him to do independent study in precalculus (which is technically illegal since he wasn't being instructed). Even if he'd transferred from another similarly integrated school district into this one, I think there's a strong possibility he could have had 4 years on one topic and no years on other topics. I guess I think of education in a more "classical sequence" way, similar to history and English lit being best understood in an orderly procession. If my student is to understand the US constitution well, then it is best to focus on that for a while, exploring different aspects, rather than reading it in between random topics in a jumble of time periods or world locations, at least the first time or two through. From my perspective, math is best understood in the same way. We used Singapore Primary US edition, and it had quite a limited set of topics, and we saw great success that transferred even to other topics not covered (I brought out a simplistic high school probability workbook since we hadn't covered that, and he said, Really, Mom?!). We also did algebra alone, and geometry. Some of math does automatically integrate across fields, but only in precalc (dual enrolled) did my youngest start seeing topics coming from all different directions, being combined in different ways, and need to keep his head above water. I think if he'd started doing that earlier, he may have not been strong in anything, as he needs to be more of a mathematical thinker than my oldest mathy son (who is more of a rule follower). Just another opinion based on my experience with an integrated program in the public schools in the early 2000s (I think it was called Core Plus). Julie

That's great that your dd's finished the Old Testament. Usually I like to mention that reading it in high school is different than reading it at a younger age, but your dd diving into it over two years in 7-8th sounds similar to doing it in 9th. I might call the MFW office and see whether they have any ideas on subbing out the Bible or anything like that. They do have experience talking to a lot of folks. AHL History and English have a lot of apologetics at an early rhetoric stage. So, students read other ancient works (the full Iliad & Odyssey, Gilgamesh, etc.) and learn to write comparisons, defend their views in an argumentative essay, etc. Not sure if your dd has done that, but I found my ds was beginning to think very differently about things in 9th grade. Of course, he's a boy LOL, so your dd may be ahead of him, but I do think there is a change at that age. He was glad for the more grown-up chance to compare his faith to outside things. I also think AHL has a balanced amount of work for a student getting used to taking high school seriously but not being buried by it. I'm not sure what the Lost Tools of Writing includes, but here is basically what's in AHL: - 6 more casual essays for history credit - 5 formal argumentative essays, working on the main writing lesson for the year (the first one is less formal as the student learns the format) - grammar-based essay editing for several weeks, and some grammar work at the end of the year - a Proverbs Project and a Psalms writing project As for Rome, AHL covers the historical time period of the Old Testament, so Rome is saved for the next year, when reading the New Testament (beginning with a short trip back in time). And as for WHL, it's truly a whirlwind tour of World History, so it doesn't spend a ton of time on the Middle Ages/Renaissance/Reformation other than including the typical number of chapters in a world history text (with added timeline & mapping etc), as well as the history of the church being covered thoroughly in the Plain Language book. WHL basically starts at Rome and goes through history, ending with a brief overview of modern times in terms of other cultures (America is covered in depth in US1 and US2). I always like to add that WHL includes 1 credit in world history and 0.25 credit in geography (somewhat optional). There are easy ways to fill out that geography credit to 0.5 or 1.0 (mentioned in US2), but those could be plugged into your dd's extended time with WHL, as another option. Spending a full year on Rome seems like a lot for high school, when there is so much territory to cover, but of course I don't know what all your study would involve, maybe Rome's influence on government, etc? My initial thought would be to start with AHL and skim through it, taking a black marker to some things, while having the leisure to delve into others such as writing, or read a couple of extras (I added Oedipus, since I think it's so prominent in our culture). Then if you are already ready to start WHL in say 2nd semester of 9th grade, you could take your time and do it all the way through 10th as well. There is always more world lit, more Shakespeare, the geography credit, or delve into any other area of interest. But I'm big on brainstorming too many ideas sometimes :) Does that help at all? Julie

I've used Sonlight 100 but even with my being open-minded on high school literature (being in a school district that reads almost nothing), and choosing mostly short reads for my dd, we still dropped almost all of SL-100 lit. I know we did Mockingbird, and maybe a missionary bio or two, but that's about it. Lori's summary seems spot-on. Even my very non-reading ds had read a lot of those in 6th-7th grades. SL has a method of interspersing easy and hard books, but for 11th grade at least, it's going to be over 90% children's books. I do think there were questions on some (not all) of the SL lit, at least when my dd was in high school (she's 26 now). Most of the questions were comprehension-type. I could look in my dd's notebook, but pretty sure we did use the questions on Mockingbird and at least one other, so those questions in particular must've seemed of some value to me, or else I added to them, but I know some of the other books had very basic detail recall questions. HTH, Julie

World (Christian news magazine) Consumer Reports, & some of their spin-offs HSLDA magazine Creation Illustrated (mostly because it's pretty) Voice of the Martyrs magazine, & others from church & missions Some I've tried when subscriptions were $10-15, but rarely renew: Biblical Archaeology Archaeology National Geographic Smithsonian Discover That doesn't count things I read when I had younger kids, or subscriptions for my grandson, who loves magazines :) Julie

Just wanted to mention that my son is pretty mathy, and we spent, let's see, 3rd through 8th grade on math facts, so that's 6 years. If I had a student struggling with basic addition (and too embarrassed to go bowling), personally I'd let him use a calculator during math "class" and I'd still do math facts as a 2nd class. It's just something very helpful in school and just in life, so I don't see it as wasted time but as time that homeschoolers can spend on the basics. Ds was able to do drill up through fractions, but I'd start with basic adding 1 for as long as needed until it's automatic, with review even then. There are lots of methods to try (visual, auditory, tactile, computer, marker board, etc etc), and many are self-correcting, so it doesn't have to be unpleasant or embarrassing. Sometimes it's just time that does the trick, too. Of course, you know your son best. Just throwing out ideas. Julie

If he's having trouble with addition, then he needs to work on addition. He needs a separate math facts/drill type of class, outside of his regular math class. Ideally he'd let you work with him, or at least work with you to develop a routine that works for him. It needs to be every.single.school.day, no exceptions. If he won't work with you, then a tutor as was mentioned or a program like Kumon (just for an example to share with him, Kumon students do 20 minutes of math, 7 days a week, outside of their school work, and start at the lowest level that they cant do quickly--and there are millions of students doing this worldwide, so he is not alone in needing extra work, by any means). He seems very aware that this is important in his life, so just needs to get through that idea that no big kids anywhere are working on these things. As for the writing, does he type? Julie

http://www.virtualhomeschoolgroup.com/ It is free. The year we used it, I clicked on the "donate" tab and it said they had fulfilled their needs for the year already. When I clicked on that tab today, it says there is a virus on that particular page? It seems like I watched several videos on their to see how it works and maybe you need to log in now to see those? You can always email Tammy, she is wonderful. Her email is on that page I linked above, down towards the bottom. Julie

No personal experience, but I've been eyeing the Teaching Company's one-day sale today on how to Look at and Understand Great Art: http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=7640&ai=91734&cm_mmc=email-_-DD13Active20131215-_-body-_-MainCourse&cm_mmca1=91734

In 7th grade, my son finished Singapore 6B, along with extensive math facts practice through fractions, a small math team with competitions, and a tiny bit of NEM (the negative numbers portion). I decided NEM was too difficult for *me* to schedule (or ds to cooperate with), some of which was just the normal jump in amount of work after elementary. I think the new Discovering Math is parsed out by Jennifer Hoerst (of the HIGs), so it might have been easier for me, but not sure. The other problem I had was doing a lot of "prealgebra" units in Singapore when I'm not inclined to do that (negative numbers in isolation just didn't mean a lot to my son, better for us to learn them in context of larger problems). Not sure, maybe I'd have liked Discovering if I'd tried it. I love Singapore Primary. So for 8th grade, I went to something I *know* I like -- Math Relief algebra. That program is exclusively algebra and I really like the idea of a teacher just and only teaching what he's gifted at, rather than trying to do it all. Anyways, we used Math Relief Algebra (and Algebra 2 in 10th). It was a great fit for my kids and me. 9th Geometry with Jacobs and then switched to Teaching Textbooks 10th Math Relief Algebra 2, plus added some AOPS at the end of the year (not ds's cup of tea) 11th College Algebra & Precalc, both dual enrollment 12th Calculus I, dual enrollment Julie

I agree it's not the end of the world with these kids. HOWEVER, I really hate to see 10 year olds basically being labeled as behind and bad at math. I took my son home to school in 3rd and he told me that nothing I could ever, ever do would make him like math. We played math games for 6 weeks (which I made progressively harder so he could see his deficiencies eventually), and then we experimented with various programs. Even after I found what worked well (Singapore), there were rough spots when we went back to the games and the different things. There were also easy spots (he didn't need prealgebra, for instance). He's now in 12th grade and taking calculus at a college. I also tutored for some years (at Kumon) and saw math students come in very behind, needing basic math facts even in high school. Some were always a little on the slow side but proud to see what they really could do. Others moved ahead a decade in a couple of years. It's good to think things through, and I think you can see it's a resounding yes, that it's not the end of the world. But no, they aren't necessarily going to be where you think they are in high school -- unless you make sure of it. Solidify their math facts every day -- think of math as 2 classes, one concepts and one drill/challenge games/etc (all the way up to 8th grade). Try different methods. Try different rates, especially with different topics - a student who is slow in math operations may flourish with geometry and money. Allow for variation, with slow seasons and fast seasons. Homeschool is so freeing from a course that someone else set for your child years in advance. Julie

I second Math Relief. Some kids benefit from being able to rewind and watch the same exact explanation a few times. They also do phone or email support. The problems are already written out on the worksheets. They don't have to juggle text and lectures because it's just lecture and then worksheets. The answer key is the same worksheets, filled out start-to-finish. They have a sample on YouTube or their website www.MathRelief.com/ It could be that he just wasn't ready for algebra, rather than that all those programs are difficult. But my dd has some aspie tendencies and she did well with Math Relief (not that the strengths and weaknesses in all aspie kids are in any way the same). Julie

Definitely. And for the enthusiastic student, he will surely make even more connections.

My youngest ds used Rosetta Stone with the MFW guide for high school credit and has had no problems with his college transcript. Rosetta is used in some public school classrooms, as are other "immersion" style programs like Rosetta (i.e. non-workbook-oriented programs). I have had children take foreign language in the traditional public school classroom and at home. One even did home first (using much less than Rosetta provides) and then went to public school for year 3, without a problem transitioning. Based on my experiences, my opinion is that homeschoolers often have unrealistic goals for high school foreign language. Yes, it is possible to have high aspirations and achieve some basic fluency in 4 years of high school foreign language, but the key ingredient is not the program you use, it is the enthusiasm of the student. I've had a foreign exchange student live with us for a bit and her enthusiasm made her English progress very well; however, almost all of her French classmates had had 8 years of English and could barely speak with us at all, didn't really seem to want to. The same would be true in most American foreign language classrooms. My oldest son took 3 years of classroom German and knows not a word today; he thinks it's a shame he wasn't more enthused, but this did not affect his college success nor his career success. Those with an enthusiasm for languages will work on them consistently, will pursue the things they don't understand, and will try their hand at communicating in the language. The majority of students will do their assignments and end up with mostly exposure. Year 1 of classroom foreign language is typically vocabulary building, with some realization that sentences are structured differently in the new language, as well as a cultural component (the extra ideas scheduled in the MFW guide). Year 2 focuses on putting together sentences and ideas, through the different tenses. The immersion method expects students to pick this up through repetitive use like a child learns his first language, but for students who aren't little children any longer, it can be good to add in an inexpensive grammar workbook (I like E-Z Grammar) or do some of the grammar exercises provided in Rosetta, especially if your student isn't likely to get out resource books or internet helps to figure out sentence structures he doesn't understand. I also added a native speaking tutor for a bit at the very end of year 2 for each of my students, but MFW has other options for adding that conversational component, as well. Not many use Rosetta for year 3, but if they do, adding a personal conversation experience is highly recommended by MFW. Hope that helps balance the responses, Julie

I'm not fond of recall-type questions, but I probably used that kind of thing more with mythology than with anything else. Maybe it was my particular son, but he just misinterpreted or plain old missed so much without my stopping and going over questions VERY frequently. I mean, he might know who Achilles was, but might miss what country he was in, what country he was from, what country he was fighting against, no clue who Patroclus was, totally miss the Zeus/Hera goings-on, etc etc. If he had to do a project, he might do it on Achilles and the teacher might never realize he thought Achilles was from Rome or something. Even with shorter myths, he might miss the very details that a myth is most known for. And I'm not sure a lot of other kids I've worked with would do a lot better. Of course, you may be blessed with an ambitious group of real literature readers. Or, you could follow up each presentation with your own bullet points. I guess I'm just posting as a caution that you might lose some kids if you do too many projects and too little discussion/questions/detail in some form. Julie

If she's a high schooler, I don't see a need for a creative writing program unless she requests one for an elective credit in creative writing. Even if she wants such a credit, she may advance better at this point by just writing, and then finding a person willing to be a critical reader -- preferably someone who enjoys reading her genre. High schoolers need to learn how to make a statement, organize it logically, and defend it with a variety of evidences. Personally, I think that is best done by just using ordinary high school topics she is already studying, processing them by her writing (essays with possibly letters to the editor, descriptions, and other typical college/career writing), and then having a reader do careful reading and give feedback on how well the piece is understood (probably you, but could be someone else). I only suggest a "program" at this point if you see a particular weakness and find a program that addresses that particular weakness. No need to work on things she's already mastered, since time is precious in high school. Just another opinion, Julie

My ds is mathy and we knew he could have tested out of college algebra in 11th, and really the professors seemed to think he should do that. However, we wanted him to do math all year (since a college semester course can equal a high school year-long course, some just do one semester of math), and we decided he could use a fairly easy intro to college math. We are both glad he went ahead and did college algebra. He said it was like "algebra on steroids." Topics came at him at a pace much faster than he was used to, and topics were integrated together much more than the usual progression of high school algebra 2. For instance, you might do the quadratic equation again but add a lot of things into it that hadn't been in there before LOL. The next semester he did precalc and again it wasn't a repeat. He said the topics were always changing, so just when one was absorbed, he was on a different one. He felt the pace and the amount of homework was a challenge. For instance, he turned one assignment in about a day late (less than 24 hours) and had to do a ton of extra credit (really all that was offered) just to get his GPA back to where it had been. Not sure what your son's background is, but there was a transition for my son and he was glad he wasn't trying to absorb calculus at the same time he was trying to absorb a college pace (he's in calculus now as a 12th grader, his 3rd college math semester -- p.s. I would have preferred he spent a semester doing calc at home before doing it at an actual college, but he just wanted a professor). Julie

This was our experience, as well. Yes, there are a few 4.0 graduates who live and breathe math, and they could be bored. Those who enjoyed AOPS calc at home might be bored. The other 99.9% probably would benefit from doing calc more than once, or at least spending solid time in the basics leading up to calc (either of the options the OP proposes). My oldest is 29 now, so I checked the current status of his degree (Petroleum Engineering at CSM) and they still have Calc 1 on track for first year (undergrad flow chart link here http://petroleum.mines.edu/undergraduate_program.html ). I have no idea whether incoming freshmen typically have had calc 1 already (their website only requires trig but suggests more http://www.mines.edu/NewFreshmen ). However, it would seem doubtful that they all have mastered it, based on their flow chart. My ds went to a poor public high school, chose not to take honors anything. He stood out for other reasons, I guess -- he had a couple of honors and extras in junior high, he had a community college A in calc, and he also tested well in math. Although, the ACT doesn't include calc -- in fact, testing well is sometimes a challenge for calc students because they may be out of the habit on some of the more basic math. My son took calc 1 as a freshman and still graduated in 4 years, and did well enough that he was hired before he graduated. He had taken calc1 at his high school (I think that one was independent study), and then again at the community college, so he was actually taking calc 1 for the third time in his major. That's not the norm, I know. But he wanted to be fully a part of his freshman class. And one of the benefits for him was having an easy calc1 class to start out. He is a good student but not probably up to the 8Fills level, as he probably was off doing other hobbies when he could have been chatting math (although he was a tutor, etc). My son felt each calc teacher had something different to offer him. My youngest son has had three different college math professors so far and now realizes they are all over the board in teaching methods and teaching ability. Oldest does still feel the topic was worthy of repetition, since he needs it in his career. I look at it as lives depend on his work being done well. Of course, if he was genius level and bored, it would have been a waste of time. But for him, even though he was/is a good student, it wasn't. The boys we saw drop out of his school, or who took 5-6 years to graduate, did not do so because they wasted a semester on calc 1. They typically did so because they just didn't like doing (or couldn't do) all that math every day, in the sciences as well as the maths. I think perhaps making calc 1 an easy class that first semester might even be encouraging. Julie

I havent used any whole series for modern history. But since you haven't had any replies, I'll say that I've found it useful to have a few series on hand to (a) educate myself as teacher and (b ) pull individual lectures from on occasion. For example, Civil Liberties & Bill of Rights: Marbury vs Madison lecture, on the Supreme Court's powers American Ideals/Republic of Virtue: Pain & Burke lecture, showing the importance of great thinkers to accomplish great things in a society We haven't actually finished modern history for my 12th grader, so maybe I'll be pulling out more as I think of it. Julie