I think you should start reading Susan Wise Bauer's books and blog. She is the poster child for success after a classical homeschool education. She is a professor, married to a pastor. This is her forum. Here is her blog http://susanwisebauer.com/blog/and there is a link to her cv on there http://susanwisebauer.com/bio/c-v/ Julie

I'm sure more chemistry will make college easier, more of everything is always better, but I always like to say that math is the place to put extra time in for future STEM students. At least with engineering, more science doesn't seem to be needed to get into schools or to get good ACT scores. It's the math that helps get into colleges, and it's the math causes dropping out, from what we have seen. Julie

There is serious math in Spectrum. I don't feel knowledgeable enough to compare the math to traditional Chemistry textbooks, but math became a serious part of understanding Chemistry for my son during Spectrum. His lab partner sometimes had a hard time with the math, so we used a few extras like Kahn and some helpful versions of the periodic table. The company is great about answering questions, as well. My son is mathy so it wasn't challenging until we got to the different +/- possibilities in balancing equations, but likes a math challenge. He had more trouble with some of the vocabulary when different elements were combined. He's not a word person, but that was a learning curve for me, as well. Julie

I used an HSLDA transcript form which had a small area for "extracurricular" and a small "key" where I included IP = In Progress * = dual credit college courses I think you have to include CC credits on your transcript if you used them for high school credit in "your school." Otherwise, you will have a high school transcript that won't include key high school credits -- especially if the CC credits fulfill math, English, science, or any core requirements in your high school. And yes, I've signed any paper transcripts. One college has accepted an electronic transcript without signature, so far anyways. Julie

I know nothing about Mr. Q, but the price of Spectrum is based on having all of the lab materials and equipment, all measured and organized, and basically all the labs get done. They are in fact a major part of the teaching of chemistry in Spectrum. The other piece for me is the teacher book, which tells me lab answers and the main points of things being taught. Not saying that stressing labs is the only way to teach chemistry, but it's an important point of cost comparison.

Just wanted to clarify/agree that whether or not it's suitable for a personal finance credit is a different question than whether it's suitable for an economics credit. It would cover more of the usual scope of a personal finance course (with some actual practice) but not a lot of the usual scope of an economics course, even if you were just covering micro econ. Although of course, it's your school :) Julie

With my older dd, I did Burkett (and another workbook from AGS, which is often used in alternative schools, maybe this one? http://smile.amazon.com/dp/078540953X/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=1W3JD56Z3Y36K&coliid=I1SLIHYYX917KE). With my youngest ds, we listened to Dave Ramsey on a long car trip (MN to CO, about 14 hours LOL). It was the adult CDs, not the student version, so not a direct comparison. I think they both learned some things they needed to learn. The Burkett was more practical, doing a sample budget, I think we cut some car ads out of the newspaper or maybe it was rental ads. My dd benefited from the realism about things that must be done when you are supporting yourself. I think she needed those practical practices. The Ramsey was more theoretical (again, we listened to the adult version, not sure if the teen is different). For an adult in the midst of messy finances, it might be considered fairly practical, but for my teen it was theoretical, as he had no credit cards to pay off etc. He had, though, already bought at least one car and had friends getting their own apartments, so he knew the things they had to do (or didn't do which caused problems), so he didn't really need the practical about how to find a car or an apartment that's in Burkett. He benefited from seeing the big picture and he still talks about Dave Ramsey's advice like driving the cheap car until you save enough to pay cash for a better one. I can't say he actually follows all the advice in there like a savings account with an emergency fund, and we've found that reality doesn't always match theory (e.g. we've seen a new car cheaper than a used one), but he's aware that we make these kinds of choices. I think in both cases, the Alcorn book is a nice addition. The MFW lesson plans also have some verses that keep money ideas grounded in the Bible. Julie

I do think you can use one tool in different ways. When my son got a name wrong, we didn't focus on "why didn't you memorize the name" but instead "why would your choice not make sense in that time period," and, "Do you get why this event was so crucial?" I felt those "assessments" were written pretty well for that purpose. It is definitely a good skill to write papers and think critically etc. in some areas of high school, and my son got enough of that since he was in college courses in some subjects while he was doing American history at home. But there can be different goals in different areas. One of my core requirements in my high school is thorough American History, and perhaps it's to compensate for my horrible education in the early 70s, but I want my kids to get the flow of all events more than try to come up with a 16 year old's ideas about one specific area. My oldest did that in public school, with the history day project and other big papers and he perfected the study-and-forget technique, but he doesn't really know a lot about American history from doing that. I am worse - I came into homeschooling not knowing whether the Civil War was before or after the Revolutionary War - how pitiful is that? And I graduated college summa cum laude. And when I'd say something about my confusion, others would often recite dates to me, but no one ever stopped to say, Julie, you can't have a civil war before the country has been separated from England and formed its own nation. All the names and dates fell into place once I got into what was going on. That's the kind of thing that I think can be done by just talking and writing responses and thinking through multiple choices, even with an easier text, especially if the teacher is involved. Another thing that's important to me is that my kids have enough knowledge to write papers that have good examples and reasonable conclusions based on facts, and that they get the background behind different schools of thought. Some folks on this board have amazing kids who can give historical examples in junior high, but it is rare for the common high schooler I know, because there seems to be just no time to really absorb the big picture. I recognize that high school typically is not meant to have a broad scope, as the rhetoric level is meant to focus in more, but for me the whole picture was one of my goals in my homeschool as far as American history -- trying to help him own the big picture himself, rather than having mom leading him to the next event. Oh, my, I can never say anything quickly. Hope that makes some sense, Julie

You can probably use Amazon Look Inside to read enough and get a sense of whether your kid would think they are too young or would already know these things, or whether they would work well. They worked well for us, with a girl who's a perfectionist and who must understand/remember every detail, and with a boy who doesn't care about details and only likes things that are fun or purposeful. I did them in one year, - skipped book 1, too theoretical & changing, and some of the Mayans and such we had covered before - used Sonlight's over-the-top student questions every single day - used Oxford Press's Assessment book, with approximately 7 quizzes for each book (we tried the Hewitt tests but it was too much to wait until the end of the book to be tested) http://smile.amazon.com/History-US-Assesment-Books-Assessment/dp/0195153480/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423154478&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=a+history+of+us+quiz+and+exam+hakim+oxford - Additions were sparse. I had the Oxford teaching guides, but rarely did we have time to do extras. I gave a bit of mom feedback when correcting daily work. I read (or put sticky notes in the book) from selected comments in Sonlight's answer key to balance the books' biases, but those were way too much to use all of them. I do love the Marrin books that were mentioned and read excerpts especially about WWI and Vietnam. I also occasionally printed out something, like graphs of Civil War deaths, or we watched a movie. I know some think this is too young for high school, but both my kids remember events and people in US history to an extent that few people around me remember them. I have kept the set on my shelf and seen my adult kids pick up a volume on occasion. It was my grandmother who taught me that the juvenile section of the library can be an efficient way to learn the basics of many things. I would just add that to retain it at a high school level, it works best at my house to "do something" with the info every day (whether talking, taking notes, writing summaries, answering questions, or taking quizzes). Julie

In some courses, I definitely gave credit for this -- because the daily work and the effort to think and to discuss are the essence of what the course is "about" -- even some courses like Government and Economics, where I had tests, it was more important to me that my student "got it" and could hold a conversation with me about it than that he filled in the test correctly. I've even found errors on tests, several times, agreed to by the authors. Balance is good, because as MysteryJen said, there are important lessons in the testing format, as well. Many college professors will use testing. However, not all college grades are based on testing, so being able to interact with what you've learned on a regular basis, talking or writing thoughts or whatever, is a useful skill as well, for those [college] courses that require student interaction (online or in-person) and/or personal response types of writing. Julie

My oldest did your option 1. However, he had a "reason" for asking permission to delay enrollment (or to "hold" his place in the following year) - he went to Army Reserves training. I can't say whether they would have done it for him without a reason? Your son can keep taking the ACT and submit the score all the way up to December (although good ACT scores submitted early can sometimes mean perks such as an application invitation, without paying the fee). Do you have reason to think he would do better on the ACT during a gap year? Typically, once kids are out of "school mode," they will not do as well on the ACT, although of course I'm sure it varies. If he stays in "school mode" through CC, I agree with Maize that he'd be putting himself in a whole different situation and any ACT improvement might not even matter if he was considered a transfer student -- you'd need to ask at the college. Julie

I guess I'm going to chime in with another view, different from the others you've received. Hope that doesn't leave you just where you were with listening to all your local friends. I am willing to edit anything my kids throw at me, from high school work to (currently) college essays to presentations at work for my son the engineer. I used to edit some of my husband's mass emails he was about to send out at work, too. Some folks pay for editors. In fact, on occasion, I used to be paid for helping type/edit other students' papers when I was a college student, and of course I edited plenty for the various doctors I typed for over the years. For my kids, of course I never write anything that wasn't there, especially since I rarely know as much about the content as they do since I didn't sit the class or research the report, although sometimes I can tell that my child's life experience hasn't been enough to make him realize some of the issues he ignored or the awkward implications in the ways he said things. More commonly, though, I might highlight things like tense or repetition, insert questions and thoughts from a reader's perspective, and suggest focus areas for technical improvement. I'm even willing to help brainstorm examples that could support statements, and I think of it as a sort of modeling of how to think through these things. High schoolers are still young in many ways. As a homeschooler especially, I think I'm aware that I am able to teach my kids, too, and that learning does not need to be limited to inside a box. I suppose if I learned my kids had a teacher who specifically wanted to see their exact original wording and work with them on it, as was mentioned above, I would stay hands-off. (And of course that happens naturally with in-class essays or proctored college writing samples.) But generally, I figure my working with them on something is just as valuable as someone else working with them, and together we can build the most skills in the given time period. Writing can always be improved, and I actually am encouraged when my kids are aware of that and seek out editors. Julie P.S. Even in the public schools, my oldest received plenty of feedback and even specific examples from teachers when writing his college essays.

We've done Spectrum and a bit of various Apologia books, mostly Biology but had Chem on hand and tried to use it to help expand an explanation a few times. 1. I feel that Spectrum takes the student much further into the mathematics of Chemistry, and it's the math that helps students understand all the details of the periodic table and why different substances bond and all of that. It may not be AP Chem math, but there is more than Apologia, IMO. 2. I feel that Apologia spends more time explaining concepts in words (including words about the labs, so my son was always saying that he didn't need to do the lab). Also, very little parent involvement is needed to learn what Apologia presents, unless stuck. However, if the co-op you're involved in was not able to get further than halfway through Apologia in the past, and the student body pulls from basically the same families, then I would worry that it would be difficult to pull them twice as far even with another teacher? Spectrum uses words, pictures, and labs to explain concepts -- this method is better for kids who zone out on lots of words but might not work for kids who don't pay attention to all of those details. I also think Spectrum works best if the parent is involved in discussing the lab results every week, making sure the important concept was realized, because that is really part of the whole chapter lesson. The lab concept is nicely summarized in the parent book and could be gone over in maybe 10 minutes a week, but is easy to skip over and lose that part of the lesson. We did VHG Biology and you were expected to purchase the textbook and have the lab materials at home, in order to do the course thoroughly including the lab credit, so I didn't consider the entire course to be free, although you don't need to correct daily work etc. because it's computerized. The teachers are so VERY generous in teaching quality video classes for free. Julie

It is very common to provide extra credit projects to help grades reflect a good student who may not be a good test-taker, may have had a bad day, etc. This could be reading an extra science article and writing a review, etc. It is also common to provide helps for tests -- I've seen test prep sessions that practically hand students answers and I've seen 1/2 credit given for each wrong answer that can be corrected. Don't be scared away from what you see as the best curriculum because of grades. We homeschoolers don't have to do that. Julie

It can definitely be unproductive to homeschool a teen who wants to join the throngs in a group school, but it can also be unproductive to send a kid to school because he wants to hang out with friends (especially in a city like ours, where a majority of friends are likely doing very unproductive things, since the ones who are productive don't have time to hang out with friends). I look at it as parenting all the way up to adulthood. I discuss, I listen, I consider, but I decide whether to homeschool. Neither of my homeschooled high schoolers wanted to homeschool, and it was tough sometimes. But I've had kids in public school and that's tough sometimes, as well, educationally and socially. My middle dd (previously an A/B student) completely failed 9th grade public school, then she mostly failed summer school, but still she wanted to return. I'm sure many would agree with me that it wasn't a good idea to do what she wanted to do. I am glad I had those last few years to choose what she would focus on. My youngest was homeschooled for different reasons but still I feel I made the best parenting decision I could for him. This isn't new -- parents have long chosen where their children will be educated, especially in areas where it is common to choose Catholic schools or boarding schools. Homeschooling kids who would rather be in public school wasn't always fun, but there were many benefits, and having had kids in public school makes me aware that there may be issues in all cases. Just wanted to add another point of view, Julie

This I think is where the concern on the thread comes from -- so MANY kids go into engineering and sciences and drop out. I would say that not only are math "skills" important but math "endurance" is critical for success in college. MUS is nice and gentle, but by about 8th grade I think kids have to begin to get used to working HARD in math for at least an hour per day, just on their homework and not including the teaching lesson or tutoring. I have never seen a kid go into this with a smile, but I have seen kids come out thankful. I'm not in Australia, but I don't have a problem with light science in 9th grade at all -- most of our local public schools (admittedly not all are high quality but some are) do a light science for most 9th graders because they find students just aren't ready for more. Spend the extra time on working hard in math. Then in 10th, I think Biology is a nice ramp-up, with intense vocabulary but no math. By 11th & 12th, I think kids should be exposed to serious science just to prevent culture shock in college and to expose them to the joys of how very much can be explored. However, I have known a few homeschoolers who did very little science at home and caught up in college, whether in nursing or in the sciences. It often costed more, because of the extra courses they needed, and it required a certain drive or ability to work hard, but it can be done, I've seen it happen. Julie

Beautiful Feet is the most completely literature-based high school history I've seen. I think their guides do a good job of pulling out and giving attention to historical information in literature. That is not something my teens did on their own, mostly because they didn't have enough life experience to recognize historical significance. My dd used BF Ancients, which also brings in the text Streams of Civilization (only because there isn't enough informative literature set in ancient times). My dd "owned" what she was learning through more extensive notebooking than in the guide. After that, we dropped it because 100% literature wasn't teaching history to my dd. However, another local family took up our BF + notebooking method and their son used BF all the way through high school. I saw his notebooks and he took up the gauntlet and learned an amazing amount of history by looking into areas of interest in the BF literature, but he was a more intense oldest/only and I never had a student like him at my house LOL :) In sum, I'd say that using literature, rather than "telling" a student a narrative (such as a textbook does), may not teach history to all students but may work well for a few. It's worth giving it a try, but I'd keep tabs on whether historical information is begin picked up. We used DK Encyclopedia-type books all through the years with MFW, and they do help "me" to pick up on things I want to be sure my child hears about, but they are like the polar opposite of literature -- they have so much that again a student may not catch what is most important without a narrative text or a parent to "tell him." Just some food for thought from my experience. Julie

Waving, that's true, me for instance.

If you're willing to go outside of America, I was thinking about something from CS Lewis, like The Great Divorce or Screwtape. GK Chesterton is also thought of as a very theology-oriented writer, but I haven't personally read anything very long by him. Many (including the author herself) see theological themes in the writing of Flannery O'Connor, who is American. She is a good writer and very American, but personally I tend to think she takes a long ugly trip for a small point :( There are lots of fairly recent American Christian analogies that use the theme of knights (e.g. the Kingdom Series and the Sword of Lyric series), but none that have the literary status of Divine Comedy. Interesting topic, Julie

My son read this as a (fairly small) part of MFW's Econ credit. It is my personal opinion that by itself, it will only provide a streamlined Libertarian view of a completely free market which has never existed and so is still theoretical. Economics in a Box is also very conservative and of course it's much more work (used in 12th grade), but it does address a wider range of real-life situations and challenges within a free market system, and is willing to discuss the role of limited government (as opposed to no government). The primary book is Common Sense Economics (excluding the section on personal finance), and it uses 2 other books and many videos & articles. Hopefully that is helpful and not too opinionated. Julie

Like some of the others, I strongly encourage having a teen read through the entire Bible. Even if they are pretty familiar, it's different at the rhetoric level, when students are beginning to own and analyze info for themselves. If they aren't all that familiar, then I like the NIrV version, which has simple words and sentences but is the entire Bible, just to avoid getting bogged down and not finishing. I like having a study Bible on hand for the footnotes, as someone mentioned, and I also like the Greenleaf Guide, which some find dull but for us it just ensured we kept alert, and it didn't distract us in other directions. Other than that, I just like a brief response journal type of thing or notebooking; another mom I know had the kids write the "most important" person/event/etc. periodically (can't remember if it was each day, each chapter, or each book). The next time through, a more exacting translation or study aid can be added. There are streamlined versions of the Bible which avoid some of the repetition, but in high school I like kids to really see the whole thing -- notice that Kings and Chronicles have a lot of overlap, or that each Gospel author tells the same story from a different perspective. After the Bible, we did church history and then worldviews (using MFW), and that was a good progression for us. Julie P.S. My dd came home to school in 10th grade and I think she still really appreciates having done this.

So fun to see others who learn the same way as me! Drives some professors batty because they can't believe you can pay attention and write at the same time. Agreeing with the others that this should not slow her down. If she needs to write, she should be doing it while she listens and while she reads, and it should result in her getting the info during the lecture or the textbook. If it slows her down or has to be repeated, I have to wonder whether it really is her learning style or whether she's just showing perfectionism in trying to do everything perfectly (had one of those students in our house, we'll call it "over-learning one thing results in under-learning the other thing you were supposed to be doing"!). To add to the abbreviations idea, she could identify a few words that she's writing over-and-over in a particular course, and focus on abbreviating those. If she's writing "history" she can use "hx" or "Pythagorean theorem" can be "PTh." (And I also agree that abbreviating small words saves a lot of time; I like a symbol for "and" as well.) She can jot them down inside the cover of her notebook if she's afraid of getting confused at first.

We used MFW and I didn't use the BJU set. I actually like the set just fine, but ds wasn't cooperating with it, and he was doing dual enrollment so he was getting the textbook experience there. I did get the full package with BJU and kept it "in case" he grew into it, but he didn't. It was just a matter of one semester of one class in 11th and the same in 12th (so 1/6th or less of each year). I just subbed with what I already had from an older dd (before MFW had high school); those particular semesters are pretty self-contained. Julie

Hi again Carrie, I brought my first homeschooler home in 10th grade (and the second in 3rd grade), so I know your pain right now. Also, I'm in Minnesota. So I wanted to add a few things. First, when my kids got to about 8th or 9th, I used the PLAN (pre-ACT) and then the PSAT for their standardized test. It's my understanding that this option is now written into the law. And I saw some value in those practice tests beyond gov. mandates. Also, I found homechool groups in MN often test together; it was a lot easier to get my kids to test for 4 hours when other kids were doing it, too. I did a few hours of test prep with my son, just to get used to the language of "test instructions" and the bubbles to fill in. Other than that, testing went fine. The son who homeschooled from 3rd did well on testing; the daughter is a bad test taker whether public schooled or not. I don't think homeschooling affected testing skills, despite the amount of time spent on it in schools. Sometimes I assisted in testing and I saw the types of errors that were made and that made me understand and accept any errors my kids made. I always tell Minnesotans about giving a test to 2nd graders, where I read the questions aloud, and one asked about "interstates" but in Minnesota we call those "freeways" or "highways." Test-givers are not supposed to change any wording but I went ahead and subbed the word. My kids would have gotten that one wrong. Another instance was my son who knew more geography than most adults but was asked on a test to identify something simple like the northern hemisphere, but the drawing of a globe had words in a different place than the arrow, and left him scoring very poorly in geography based on about 3 bad questions -- I had to laugh, knowing his true knowledge of the subject. As for expecting your kids to get enthused about school, I don't want to rain on your parade but this might not happen, based on my experience with long-time public schoolers. I suggest that you adjust your goals. Instead of trying to get the kids to be enthusiastic, just try to get the best learning (both information and just learning how to learn) into them that you can. They might not appreciate it until much later, but they are "listening" to your modeling of many things including enthusiasm for learning. It's just an extension of "parenting" and our kids don't always get our parenting efforts in the midst of growing up, either. When dad comes home, hand him your MFW grid or whatever lesson planner you use, and have him ask things like, "Oh, I see you learned about X today. What did you think?" Or, open one of the books and read the headings and ask a similar question. He might also share when he loves a particular topic, too. It works better than asking what they did today. Letting dad (or uncle, or grandma, or big brother) read essays or notebook pages is also a good incentive for writing your best -- my kids responded to writing assignments better when they didn't feel "no one is going to read this." You might also consider bringing these things up after dinner, when everyone is less worn out. Best wishes as you forge ahead. Julie

I thought I'd help, having used MFW for a long time. MFW high school includes 3 credits -- Bible, History/Social Studies, and English. Actually in years 2 & 4, the packages include about 3.25 credits with the Geography. So for purposes of comparison, the price of MFW is the price for 3 or 3.25 high school credits. At the public schools in my area, 6 credits per year is the norm, and the other 3 are usually Math, Science, and Foreign Language or Elective. I agree with trying things out and not worrying that anything is forever. Be kind to yourself in the beginning and allow for change, especially at semester breaks. It's also good to evaluate your priorities. We each have different priorities. Mine would include Writing, Math, Bible, and American History (for the sake of participating in our democracy), and I don't see science as a priority even with an oldest son who is an engineer. Of course it's all good stuff. I also want to clarify one thing above -- the only strictly textbook credits in MFW high school are the US History credits (1/2 credit in 11th and 1/2 credit in 12th). The next closest to being all textbook is the World History which is most of the Notgrass textbook (but there is a lot of timelining, mapping, and all the details in a DK history encyclopedia). None of the English and Bible credits are textbook oriented. Hope that is helpful as you figure all this out, Julie