Sorry if this is a bit jumpy and confusing, it's been a long week... Thinking about moving to Singapore Math. I have heard of people who use the textbook, and then use the IP instead of the workbook. My husband and I are pretty mathy (and were taught math with a sort of combination of Singapore-style and US traditional math, since our country is heavily influenced by both) and our kids seem pretty bright with math too. So far it does not appear that my eldest needs much practice, she either 'gets' it or she doesn't, and if she doesn't only time/development helps. I'd rather avoid excessive practice if she doesn't need it, and instead focus that time on things like CWP, and fun things like LOF and eventually BA Can anyone who does it tell me about using IP instead of the workbook? Or anyone who tried it tell me why not? We'd still do the textbook so get the learning the same way, and I have a good understanding of the way the math is being taught since I was taught in part the same way as a child, so I would be able to assist with harder problems the 'proper' way easily enough. Do the IP books start out as easy as the normal workbooks? Or would the child suddenly be thrown into considerably harder problems than the ones in the textbook? How many pages are the IPs vs the workbooks? Is it around the same number of problems? Half as many? Do the IPs tie into the lessons properly or are the out of sync? How do you compensate? Anything I should know before making the decision?

I can't believe the number of people ok with a possibly 10 year old boy amongst naked women. So, let me ask, are we ok with your 10 year old daughters going into the men's changing rooms filled with naked men? Doubtful. The 6yo, fine, I'd let her bend the rules. But there's no way a 10 year old should be there. If she really thinks her 10yo is not capable of going into a changing room alone (seriously?) then she needs to use the family rooms, convenient or not.

Not a Saxon fan, but if you must switch, I'd definitely recommend 5/4. The intermediate ones were written later and are different.

Personally, I'd switch, but I grew up learning conceptual math. In my country there is a balance of both traditional and conceptual math in the schools because we are highly influenced by the Asian nations as well as by America I'd prefer to make the switch early rather than decide later that it actually wasn't enough. The goal of my homeschool, personally, is to give an absolutely solid and thorough understanding of the basics, with the ability to apply them in other situations to learn more when they choose, so slowing down with a conceptual program suits MY goals better than keeping on with what's working. I PERSONALLY would prefer, in high school, for my kids to finish AOPS Algebra 1 and Geometry, as opposed to completing a traditional Pre-Calculus (I don't have to worry about transcripts and college applications in our country). I want conceptual understanding at a lower level as opposed to formulaic understanding at a higher level. Now of course the ultimate goal is AOPS Pre-calculus lol, but, that's not achievable for every student So to that end, I'd rather do singapore or another method in elementary, even going back a grade if need be and pushing through if there's challenges, than to simply breeze through horizons. My kids might get 'ahead' with horizons but that is not MY personal goal for OUR homeschool. However, your goals may differ. Plenty of people have led very productive lives and gone onto higher education with traditional math. Kids who are mathy and will use advanced math in adulthood usually 'get' the conceptual stuff without direct instruction anyway, hence the people who built bridges and rockets with traditional math (and their own self-understanding of conceptual math). You certainly wont harm your child by keeping on with horizons, there's nothing wrong with horizons, in fact if your goal is to get to pre-calculus for your high school transcript I'd almost say Horizons would be better because it teaches what you need to do the problems with no extras, bells or whistles. For other goals, Singapore or another similar program may be better, but that doesn't make horizons bad.

I am legally blind, and the midwives and doctors when I had my first baby tried to push me into 'special' parenting classes and getting a social worker involved to help me learn how to cope because, you know, I wouldn't be able to see if the baby was hurt or something... It was pretty upsetting actually. I haven't had any issues now I have multiple kids, people figure I worked it out. (except for the ones who question how I can teach the kids if I can't read everything they can) But, particularly in regards to a baby or non-verbal toddler, I highly suspect it would work to at least a slight disadvantage if it came to legal issues or a social worker getting involved. Another possible issue is if the child was special needs and needed transport to doctors and things. Yes, I think some people frown upon disabled parents. It's very sad.

Rod and staff, spelling by sound and structure is a good, phonetic, get it done curriculum

30 minutes, possibly in two sessions for a child with shorter attention span

The kids play before breakfast. Once I begin making breakfast though, that's it, chores, eating, then straight into school. Interrupting their play for food seems much more reasonable lol, and once that happens I don't allow them to go back to playing. The plus side is this means we are often done by 11, or even 10 on a good day. I want to establish the same routine I had as a homeschooled student, work first and then when its all done you have the whole day ahead of you. I think kids play gets more involved and constructive when there's nothing hanging over them to du. If they know school is soon they won't pull out art supplies or construct big elaborate scenes, so I'd rather give them more time after everything is done instead of before

We take off all December and half of January because our school year is Jan to Dec in this country. Jun to Aug is winter here obviously and while we don't take it off, I do take most of May off for personal reasons. The kids inevitably get sick in July and August. Everybody other than the sick kid does school. Also, unless they're literally asleep and really unwell I have the sick kid do some school. If you're going to be sitting on the couch feeling awful anyway may as well do school and save your days off for nice sunny happy days out

I actually prefer a chest freezer myself, but it has to be a good sized one, longer than it is high.

That is quite intentional, a few miss it. The reason is that while 1,2,3 are concrete numbers, concepts you can handle and count, 0 is considered an abstract concept that is much harder to grasp for some kids. I know my Ker is still struggling with 0 even though she is otherwise at a 1st grade level of math. Obviously if you want to introduce 0 first that's fine as well, a friend of mine intentionally did. But it's more a difference in progression/learning styles than a 'hole'

I don't once-a-month cook, but every week, at least two nights I will cook a double/triple batch and freeze the rest, so I usually have a half dozen meals at a time in the freezer for busy nights. Goulash, Chilli Con Carne and Spaghetti Bolognese are my go-to recipies. Devilled sausages are good too. I really need to expand my menu, so, following

I don't think you're the weird one. I think a LOT of kids are overtired. Heck, I think a lot of adults are overtired! I remember right up until I was 10 or 11, I went to bed at 8:30 and woke up around 7am. As a teen I went to bed at 10pm, woke up at 7am, and often napped for an hour in the afternoon. I can only compare with the younger two, but my 5yo and 3yo go to bed about 7:30 and wake up around 6:30, so 11 hours. The middle one naps a couple of times a week and the older one naps occasionally, though honestly I think they could both do with a nap because after 2pm they're terribly cranky, they just wont because they'd rather play and I stopped enforcing it. As an adult, I generally sleep a full 8 hour night (though 9 hours leaves me feeling considerably better in the mornings) and I nap any afternoon I'm able to. I wonder how many people who 'cant get going in the morning' or 'need their coffee' are actually just chronically sleep deprived.

other. To me estranged is acting as if the other doesn't exist. So my dad can't call my mum his ex-wife (they're still married) but they haven't spoken in 6 years. Neither is filing for divorce, but getting back together is not going to happen under any circumstances. They're estranged, still a husband/wife but no contact at all. They may very well remain legally married until they die at this rate because they can't be bothered having enough to do with each other to even file papers. I'd use the term ex-wife, or ex-husband, if the divorce proceedings were in process but not yet complete, because the process to ex is actively happening I'd say separated or working things out if there was a possibility of reconciliation.

People don't like to see other peoples kids get ahead of theirs, or do more than theirs, especially if it's because the parent is using a different method. They'd be much more comfortable if your kids were nice and average. Some people actively object to accelerating a child any further once they're already ahead of grade level, and that parents who push their kid to their full potential are tiger parents. There's this unspoken idea that kids who continue to move ahead are being forced there by their parents. Me? I'm going to push my child to do the best they are capable of, whether that's 5th grade work in 3rd grade, or 2nd grade work in 4th grade, or simply a child doing average 3rd grade work in 3rd grade. That's not being a tiger parent, that's meeting your child where they are at and challenging them appropriately just like anyone else at their level. I have two kids working pretty much on grade level with each other in a subject, and with a few accommodations and the knowledge that the younger may possibly slow down at some point, I expect the same of them, both the on-grade and the above-grade.

We do 100 Easy lessons and Explode the Code until they finish 100EZ Then we switch to Rod and Staff Spelling, with Explode the Code We do D'Nealian Handwriting At this point, writing is them dictating a story or recount to me for a journal page every now and then, and lots of descriptive conversations where I ask questions and they form answers. I plan to begin using Writing Strands once their handwriting is at a competent level but until then simply exploring descriptive spoken word seems a good start. We don't do formal grammar (I intend to use Analytical Grammar later on) but I introduce punctuation through reading and will correct basic punctuation/capitalization when they begin writing more than handwriting/math worksheets.

Yeah... No. What I actually said was " I want so much to get involved with your cause, post his story, warn people, expose what happened. But I can't, because all of the groups doing that work are discounting and demonizing homeschooling as a whole as part of it," I don't see any 'stop publishing your stories because they're irrelevant' there. What I actually see is that by making the stories connect directly to homeschooling, theyre silencing a lot of fellow victims who did not blame homeschooling. Anyway, have fun talking yourself in circles, I'm out. I was worrying this thread was alienating the decent conservative Christian families. For the record, all I've said comes from the perspective that so am I. We moved away from DHs raised beliefs, but we're still patriarchal, conservative, Christian homeschoolers (who think gothard is disgusting, and the pearls are terrifying, and value high academic skill, for the record). Certainly there are many of us who do not abuse our kids who end up lumped in the same boat as well when people try to blame a movement or a group for their parents abusive actions. I was just trying to only argue one point at a time lol. Not sure if you want anyone fully quoting so I'll just grab the last sentence You have articulated it perfectly. Single motherhood was just as integral a part of your experience as homeschooling is of theirs. I suppose you could say in a way single motherhood 'caused' it. But single motherhood isn't evil, it isn't single motherhoods fault, you aren't out petitioning for the banning of single motherhood. It is the fault of the abuser, plain and simple. I'm sorry for your experience. :(

My husband and I adored workbooks as kids. My eldest thrives on them and the solid, tangible achievement of completing a page. She actually doesn't respond well to open ended projects, she fails to see a goal to pour her perfectionism into. If you like workbooks you may find your kids do too. I find learning styles are seemingly inherited to a point

Yeah, dh and I are both disabled and both work part time, that FTB is enticing enough to go through registration for us unfortunately.

I generally make it a policy to never engage you in debate, but I wanted to address this one point. Firstly I never said most. I did say rampant, but I stated at least once that they were a large minority, never the majority, even back in the 80s and 90s they were never a majority. As to whether rampant is a fair use of the word... I was a secular homeschooler, and even then I would say 50% of the families I interacted with were fundamentalist, some obviously abusive, some I suspect were. DH was only allowed to interact with the highly religious families and none of them have gone well in adulthood, all have struggled due to their parents methods of parenting and strict patriarchy. In speaking to graduated homeschool friends ALL of them knew at LEAST one family of the type being spoken about here, and most of them knew many more. I would say everybody knowing at least one case within such a small subset of society (homeschoolers) would be considered unfortunately common at least. And this is in Australia, where the homeschooling movement was not at all started by religious fundamentalists, but was rather a natural progression since we have had schools of distance education available since my grandparents were kids and the concept of school-at-home is quite a familiar one here. Homeschooling just took that already existing structure and added some of the things coming from the US into it, like having the parent do it alone instead of deferring to a distance education school. Many of the families I knew began homeschooling for academic reasons or due to bullying, even in the earliest stages. So if it was that bad in Australia where religious fundamentalists were not the initial driving force of homeschooling and where churches like the ones I've heard described don't really exist (most of those families homechurched) then I can only imagine it was even moreso in your country, where religious homeschoolers still have enough influence that many groups are religious-only and secular homeschoolers sometimes feel like they don't have a community (I've only seen one christian-only homeschooling group in the past 10 years, and it was pretty patriarchal and scary) So, yes, I do feel that if we are defining abuse as not just physical,. but also the sort of emotional and mental abuse that was common in the super-conservative patriarchal families, that rampant is a fair word. Not majority, not most, but certainly common enough that no one who was involved in the homeschooling community back in those days could have missed it either.

I have to say, I've been thinking more and more lately about whether I am really prepared to register. We have to register our eldest soon and.... the only thing pushing me to register is that centerlink are getting stricter and pushing to ensure all kids are registered somewhere, linked to social security benefits. I've heard you can still get around it but I don't want to get caught out if they tighten things up more later on. Sigh. I am all for a certain level of oversight but, like you, I'm well aware many of the people around me aren't registered (though that's changing, most new homeschoolers coming into it seem to be registering now, a lot have never considered going under the radar at all, so this dynamic may change in 10 or 15 years as the older homeschoolers finish up and the new generation which has always had a formal, accepted registration option comes in)

All this, with the word public instead of boarding. Awful things happened, from students AND teachers and other circumstances. I have some horror stories people wouldn't believe happened. I can't imagine sending my kids to a public school knowing their flaws and pitfalls as well as I do (we are in it for the long haul with homeschooling). But I'd be considered absolutely crazy to say public school is bad and no one should ever go there because they will all endure awful stuff. Anyone on this forum who says they will not ever consider public school is shot down by posters saying they don't know what the future holds and public school isn't that bad. And they're right. Many people have great experiences, and obviously the majority of the population is going to continue using it. There's a lot of people here defending HAs right to blame homeschooling and call it evil. If I said the same things about public school that HA says about homeschooling, if I blamed public school the same way they blame homeschool, would I be defended by these same people? Doubtful. I'd be reminded that it was those teachers/students, not everyone, that not all schools are that bad, that many people have great experiences at public school. If I petitioned for public schools to be shut down because of my experience and the blame I assign them, I'd be the sort of person homeschoolers distance themselves from. Homeschooling was no more the cause of their problems than public school was of mine. Since it appears someone from HA may be reading this... I get it, I get your stories and I totally respect them. My husband had the same upbringing as you and is psychologically damaged from it in ways that effect our family now, my 7 brothers and sisters in law had the upbringing and I see the same struggles in their lives. Many of my childhood homeschooling friends had it. ALL of my husbands childhood homeschooling friends had it. It was a huge problem at the time and awful things happened. I was there, I saw it. I even, at one point, tutored some girls who came from that community in basics like math and writing. I'm so sorry for your stories, just as I am for the stories of my own family and friends. I've been involved as a spectator and support for this community, this subset of homeschooled students, for a very long time. I GET IT. But many of your own peers have come to not blame homeschooling but rather to blame the abusive leaders and their abusive parents. And even if you do blame homeschooling, you have to see that the movement that caused this has all but died out, it's leaders have been systematically exposed over the past few years, it's amazing how many homeschoolers who were involved in these groups have sent their kids to school in the past couple of years in response to all the criminal cases. The majority of homeschoolers now, today, are not abusive. Some focus on academics, some don't, some are religious but in a more moderate setting. But almost all of them would be horrified at the writing of various leaders in that movement. Abuse is nowhere near as rampant among the homeschool community as it was in the 80s and 90s (except for those who are not homeschoolers but, rather, just don't send their kids to school. That is an important distinction. There have been abusive parents who deny their children an education for a long, long time before homeschooling was ever popularized and they should not be lumped in with us. Deciding to homeschool (albeit badly) is different to deciding your children won't have schooling.) If you genuinely recognize that you were victims of the Christian Patriarchy Homeschooling movements, then please consider how you represent yourselves, because you ARE having a real impact on international politics. When media in other countries are referencing your website specifically, you have to consider what you appear to be standing for, and the impact your message is having on people around the world. This is way bigger than telling people in your area about the dangers of some homeschooling groups, you and other groups like yours are impacting international legislation and providing a powerful tool for countries to ban homeschooling completely with societal support, or put good families through extremely intrusive and yet entirely ineffective processes, because I am sure you're all aware that people like your families simply wouldn't have registered to be monitored, just as my husbands family never did. Keep sharing your stories, people need to know what happened, and what still has the potential to happen. It's an important part of the history of homeschooling. But don't lump it all together as homeschoolers. It isn't, especially not now. We are long past the peak of these groups. You are survivors of abuse (you could even go as far to say abusive homeschooling), survivors of cults and extreme patriarchy, survivors of ATI or survivors of spiritual abuse. But homeschooling itself, as an educational choice, is not what hurt you and has helped many, many people. And you might be surprised how many of your own peers, fellow children from ATI/Gothard/Peals/Whatever have distanced themselves from their childhoods, recognized the major issues, blame the leaders or their parents, but have actually still chosen to homeschool their own children, just very, very differently than how it was done for them. My husband is SO excited to homeschool our kids, he thinks it's great, we are so passionate about it. But it looks nothing at all like how my husband was 'homeschooled' by his fundamentalist parents. We have at least two other people on this thread who grew up in that movement or close to it, who have still chosen to homeschool but differently to how they were. There is more than one way to homeschool, and your horrible, sad experiences do not speak for the majority, not now and not even back then (though you were once a much larger minority than today) My heart hurts with this whole topic because I am so passionate about it, I have a personal connection to it. I was fortunate enough to not live it myself but I grew up watching it and am dealing with the consequences as an adult of my husband living it. I want so much to get involved with your cause, post his story, warn people, expose what happened. But I can't, because all of the groups doing that work are discounting and demonizing homeschooling as a whole as part of it, and as an equally passionate homeschooling mother I can't support that. I can't contribute to your efforts when I know you're actively harming homeschooling as a whole. I'm not the only one. There are people who would support you and want to be involved if you could just aim your blame where it belongs, at leaders, cults, and naive or abusive parents, instead of aiming the blame at an educational choice which works great for many families, and where abuse is no longer any more common than it is for public schooled kids.

Yeah, I do all that. A very large (for Australia's sparse population) group got hugely involved and up in arms about another parental rights legislation recently. We had senate inquiries and everything. We didn't expect to win but we tried anyway The inquiry was railroaded, the media was hugely biased or simply didn't report at all (national co-ordinated protests went unreported) and despite various groups saying the legislation was essentially illegal, it has still been passed, and I haven't even recieved courtesy responses to the half dozen letters I sent about it. I've also written letters to the medical minister and my state minister on other matters over the past few years and got absolutely nowhere, except a polite thanks for your opinion. Part of it is, here, you vote for parties not for individuals for the most part. And also, we just have a totally different political climate. You make your decision when you vote, and much of our legislation is based on majority opinion and agreed on by both sides of politics. Great when you're the majority, not so much when you're a minority fighting through. So, yeah, groups like this give more ammunition while politics ignores the positive stories or the ones which are giving a non-majority view. Groups like HA are 'proof' used in trying to pass even stricter laws than the ones we have now, and in countries where homeschooling is illegal it is used as evidence to keep it illegal and keep the public perspective of it negative through media. Not everywhere works the same way the US does. I know how much work and effort went into homeschooling in the 80s and 90s, my family was part of it. We homeschooled illegally, like everyone else back then, I remember not being allowed outside during school hours, I remember being spoken to about what to do if child services ever came, memorizing phone numbers and being aware of the possibility of going over the border to another state if things got bad. It's better now, but that's mostly due to the increased popularity of homeschooling in america, not because of lobbiers here in australia. It's a different culture and political climate.

Yeah, the people using that argument most here, Sadie, dialectica and I aren't in the US. Homeschooling is nowhere near as safe and secure here (the country with home visits for homeschoolers) and in other countries its not legal at all. But unfortunately our legislators and media look to America, where it is most widespread, for information. So it kind of its a big deal. Dialectica said she saw HA referenced in her local media and I've seen plenty of stuff in my own about abusive families which supposedly represent homeschooling or large families

And yet another 'yes, this times one million' I was abused horrifically, I was involved in things I can't mention on this forum, and I have permanent physical damage from it not to mention psychological. That is all to say, no one who cared enough to truly look could have possibly missed it, it was so severe that despite my best attempts to hide it, the signs were there and clearly visible, physical and mental. My parents were not the abusers, though they did remain wilfully ignorant despite a million signs. I was in and out of schools, and was in school during a lot of it. I saw school counsellors, I had an IEP and special teacher meetings. Even when I homeschooled I was out and about with all sorts of people, mum ran a store and I was often roaming around town. I was never hidden or sheltered, my parents were secular and took me out of school because they decided to blame school for the symptoms of abuse I was displaying, instead of seeing the much bigger issue directly in front of them. Having said that, taking me out of school was probably the best decision they ever made for me and I'm grateful for it every day, because it hindered my abuser somewhat, though didn't come close to stopping it. So, not sheltered, and for much of it not even homeschooled, but NO ONE ever stepped in and did anything, no one protected me, the only people who ever acknowledged what was happening to me did it while taking advantage of it's damage, and those people included at least one teacher. Going to the library more often and making sure to get your well child visit isn't going to help, abuse happens and people don't want to see it.