Sorry if I was misunderstood - I meant not using "academic" markers as your goal now - not not doing what the speech program entails. I got the idea that the OP was not just questionning how to remediate the speech diffuculties (and I certainly see much wisdom in what others have suggested - that's one LD we haven't had to deal with here, and as a pediatrician and child Psych, I am good at identifying who needs it, but not what to do....), but whether to start early with "skills training"... I still stand by my statement that a child (at 4) who is behind in preschool skills of communication, thought organization, listening skills, motor skills, etc needs to work on those first while being exposed to good literature, converstation, and concepts...not start working on memorizing the alphabet... Erin

Start now, but NOT with Letters, numbers, etc....start with stories, (read to your child and tell them stories, see if they can tell you stories) exploration, colors through reinforcement - (ie lots of books with color based themes, exploring colors in nature, color, paint, etc.) and read to your child, talk to your child, play with your child, bake with your child....etc. This will build attention span, listening skills, overall cognitive skills, and bonding with parent that leads to willingness to take on hard academic skills when the time comes. I'm not in favor of "better late than early", either - but with a child with challenges, you need to build up their strengths and the above skills first. Starting letters, numbers, traditional 3 rs in kindergarten (5 or more likely 6) is "early enough". A kids who has the prelimonary ability to listen, curiousity to learn, self confidence to help around the house and complete a task, and has observed much of the world around them will then be able to address these issues. Remember that all those therapies are "work" for your child... Erin

Word retrieval and in general language output is a huge deal for my ds. When not under pressure he can come up with similies, great vocab, etc...but very sporadically, and never when asked. For instance, in a recent writing lesson on synonyms... Now this kid has a great vocab when tested either with multiple choice testing or picture testing - I mean college level at age 8. How come he can't think of a single word that means "big"????? Because of his dyslexia/language based learning issues. I constantly need to remind myself that this will likely not change much, although he will continue to gain compensatory skills. So...we pulled out his ITouch and used the thesaurus function, and moved on. What I can say, for me, is that full testing (psych - ed) and 2 years of professional tutoring (as in didn't paint the house or put in electricity to the barn or get braces yet because of the expense tutoring) has given me an idea of what to work on "teaching him" and what to use technology to adapt for him. I still find myself flumoxed by what he can't do - and then what he does easily. But throughout all of this, I have to focus on his progress, not his level. to the OP, it was important to figure out what was going on so I would stop trying to find the right way to "fix him" or "make him catch up". What I have discovered (and don't always remember) is that that's not how it rolls...but he can set long term goals of academic success, and likely meet them - HIS WAY. Find your kids way! Erin

ACCELERATE WHERE NEEDED (MATH, READING MATERIAL, ETC), BUT DEEPEN AND WIDEN MORE AT THIS AGE. Surround her with books that will meet her curiousity (dd just in the last 12 months started picking EVERYTHING up and reading it - and all those books I had stored on shelves after reading them to her brother I now find strewn across her messy room each night - she surprised grandma last night by discussing Frankenstien with her - and how sad it was...not just the story line. And we don't have an abridged version, so she must have at least skimmed the real thing...) Get her doing art, music, etc...and let her go with the discussions whereever she wants...forget the "grammer" learning stuff (now remember, this is coming from a classical homeschooler - so I don't mean don't do it, but rather than spending hours on it, get in what needs to happen and MOVE ON). DD also did several mind bender books this summer for fun. If I had said "now lets start studying logic, today do 2 pages of this workbook...) that would have been a no go, but she found them in the bookshelf and did them for fun...again, "stealth schooling" on my part! Erin

My kids find their friends through activities - and are friends with each other, and get most of their "goofy gifted intellectual stuff" with each other, aunts and uncles, grandparents, etc. They have found other kids with similar interests in HS science classes and through violin as they move from the early levels to the upper ones... My daughter, who is NOT PG, but somewhere between G and HG, has great friends at gym, many of whom are in the TAG program in school, and I think its the intensity of that sport and the dedication/passion required that leads it to attract kids in the gifted spectrum - that and probably that its expensive, so more of the kids have professional parents, thus more parents who were "gifted". Anyway, I think its easy for dd to make friends and she just adjusts what she talks about. My oldest is my "odd fish" , and he's 2E, if he would even be officially gifted (he's been tested, but the psych and his tutor of 2 years both felt that the tests didn't reflect his intelligence - severe dyslexia, severe anxiety, language based output issues, but then popped up with a few things in gifted range, and you only have to talk to him....) Anyhow, ds #1 really only has a few friends his age, and they are all TAG kids....and he likes to hang with older kids with similar interests,adults, OR with younger kids doing things like legos, etc....I still wonder how to help him find his niche - but he's finding it without me, and in different ways than I would have thought, so I am trying to just let it be! As a past gifted kid, I know it wasn't until high school that I really found a group of kids with similar intelligence/drive/hyper-excitabilities to "hang with". Prior to that I had my friends (and the ones I was closest to were also gifted) and my family (all gifted and weird!!!)...and I'm still able to "hang with the girls at the office", but get most of my intellectual stim from family and those few old friends... I did love my swimming friends, my ballet friends, etc...so again, find interests and don't worry about IQ...kids who love chess are likely to be accepting of quirky gifted kids... Erin

My dd started Plato last spring at 8. she's loved it and scores consistantly in the 90+ % on the tests. The only challenge for her has been that I make her take notes on each lecture...she is more than ready for the content, but the task of organizing the material is hard. However, one of the challenges for gifted kids is to learn how to systemmatically approach a subject when it gets hard (ie study), so I would rather she do that now with science that is easy and fun for her, than in college with honors physics (when I hit the wall!!!). You are in good company here - and try to remember that just because she' not working her "hardest" isn't really laziness....they still have to learn diligence, etc. and that takes maturity more than intelligence! Keep her seeing the point of learning the "harder" stuff...we recently skipped from MM4A to Saxon 7/6 with dd just 9, because she wanted something she could "read and learn it that way" - and so far she's excited to have her own math (different from bothers, who are auditory learners and math whizzes, so saxon doesn't work for them) and up for the challenge! SL got her out of reading junk - we have done it a few years accelerated, and although the reading is technically easy,= (right now mostly 4-7th grade level) its been a good way for her to read and discuss, compare different books, and be "philosophical" instead of "factual". Enjoy her! Erin

I may be reading this wrong, but it appears that your 5 year old daughter is an accelerated reader (maybe all "seatwork") and your 5 year old son needs 1 on 1 to learn and is "on level". I hate to say this, because it may not fit your kids, but in general I'd say that's totally "normal", especially with a curriculum like Abeka which is very textbooky, and not the way most young boys learn best (of course it may be for some), but great for bright young girls who are language accelerated. In fact, the part of the brain that processes language in a 5 year old boy looks (medically speaking) like the same area in a 3 year old girl!!! SOOOO....if you are going to keep them in the same grade (and many "reshirt for academics" with boys these days), then you can expect this differential for several years, but likely if your son doesn't decide he's the "dumb one", it will even out in the teen years. Unforunately, most boys do decide they don' t like school....another subject there! If your daughter is truely ahead in all areas, than I'd personally push to accelerate her - if its only the language arts areas, then see how it goes, as many early readers "even out" in a few years...not all, mind you, mine didn't!!! But statistics say, and this is why schools hesitate at kinder age to accelerate, that especially girls who are early readers (based upon exposure especially, not the ones who read cereal boxes at 2) MAY NOT be ahead in a few years... Why do all the schools use Abeka? Any option for a curriculum that would be more ammenable to a gifted kiddo? Erin

OK...so on the placement test, she actually places into 7/6....Maybe this is part of her math problem - got stuck doing TT and bored, still only barely 9, so can't do Mammoth math 4 all by herself (maturity issue), and needs to be doing a higher level but still written so she can be semi-independent. She really does learn best through reading and one on one - not well with videos - zones out...same with audio if there's not a reading component. SOOO the opposite of her brother. She needs to do her own "figuring" of things some. I'm going to see if I can find someone locally with a 7/6 to play with...and still do MM/ Life of Fred for supplemental learning...does that sound reasonable to ya'all??? erin

thanks for the advice. It's funny, she's my one of the three who's the LEAST accelerated in her math (although her older brother moves a bit slowly sometimes because of his being 2E, and gets higher math better than basic) - but it may be because of the "boredom" with basic math. Who knows. I think I'll play about with the saxon placement test and 6/5 tests that I have, as well as looking at how much of MM 4 she really has left - and maybe add some of the resources mentionned. Has anyone figured out how to get kids their own Khan academy account? I got one started with my facebook, which my 7 year old is using, and I suppose I could set up a seperate email for each kid? But as they are all under 13, I haven't figured out what hoops to jump through...I'd like all of them to spend some time there. Erin

So, dd is throwing me for a loop...she's my one who has actually been tested gifted, but math is her "weak" area. Partly because she just doesn't like it much, and partly because she doesn't like to learn what she doesn't like...I see in her an ability to grasp math concepts quite easily once taught well, but its hard to get her to sit still and work through the "I don't know how to do this, my little brother is going to catch up with me I hate math..." stuff!!! She tested 5-6 grade on her yearly tests in math (she was officially finishing 3rd grade). She has done Saxon 1-3 (years ago), then MM 2/part of 3, then TT 4 last year. (see, I don't know what to do with her!). She did well with TT grade wise, but I had to stop the last few lessons because I couldn't stand the way they were teaching...percent without decimals? I just don't see the point and it fed right into her "I don't understand - I am terrible at math" stuff...Who could really understand it that way!!!??? So...Mammoth math - I have done most of MM 4A with her this summer - but it is drudgery for her - she likes to read her own lesson, but really can't "get" all the advanced MM on her own - so has to wait for me to teach it. And I am concerned that she won't keep progressing as well (she makes silly mistakes or does it "her way", which sometimes gets the right "answer" but not the concept being taught). I pulled out Saxon 6/5 yesterday and she loved it! She likes to read the lesson, she has no trouble copying the problems. She would be totally independent for the first 3/4 of the book. She would make NO MATH progress for the first 3/4 of the book, but really isn't ready for 7/6 (plus I don't own it and am trying to not buy more right now). I like mastery teaching in math - but I realize that some kids do great with saxon. And there is some value in her being independent and working through it - but we left saxon because of the endless cycling back... I see a few options: 1. Let her do it, and have faith that she'll hit some new math after Christmas and it will be ok. (she votes for this one). 2. Have her take the tests only and when she hits a grade less than 95%, start at the corresponding lessons (this would probably put us about lesson 50-60 I think). 3. Do saxon lightning speed (maybe every other problem - I usually hate this approach) and do MM 4B also, so that next summer she's finished it and the 6/5 and if she really likes saxon, skip to 8/7 then? 4. Just do the MM and make it work, knowing she'll need more hand holding. I have TT 5, but I think I'll hold on to it for now - I am using TT 4 for fun math with dd7, and if he likes it for review, may do the same with TT 5 - but likely not ever again for "new concepts". Oh, she is excited to start LoF fractions, but I told her she needed to really master long division first - which she almost has. I could add it in for her fun math with the MM or saxon.... She is a competative gymnast, and does a lot of music too. I work 3 days a week and have the 2 boys to teach too. She's doing middle school science, and reading is advanced too - but its the nitty gritty in LA we need to work too, so I already have her stepping "back" to R & S grammer 4. I would like to do MCT with her - and have it, but again time is a factor. She does her history with brother (will hit SL core 5 this year and have to do a lot of research), so other areas will be challenging her. When I was her age I jumped from remedial 3rd grade math (had trouble with place value and ps couldn't see what I could do) to 5th grade when I "figured out" multiplication and division on the placement test on my own. I think she's a similar learner - gets stuck, then takes off...will likely get stuck again, then take off... Any ideas? I'm not totally opposed to a different program - just need to be careful...I really like math and sometimes that gets to be expensive! Erin

No point at all - pick a program and do a placement test for your child - if they are ready for seat work (and a lot can be done orally at this age, with limited practice writing numbers out - for instance when my Ker did MM1 (after saxon 1 and part of 2), he did about half of the writing himself...but worked every problem out. By MM 2 and 3 he could do all the writing fine (2nd grade). Erin

Just wanted to add that MM6 has lots of integers work. I too, think its basically "pre-algebra", but I'm still thinking my kiddo may need more before algebra...Right now I'm thinking we'll do LoF prealgebra with MM 6 and see what "weaknesses" show up, then decide. Erin

We, too took more of a break this year than planned...except it pretty much always happens...so I maybe should plan it next year??? Anyway, for any child, a skill that is not yet mastered will regress with time off. Your child has not mastered phonics, and so, without constant drill, it slid. For my ds 1, it was percents. For DS2 his reading really slid, but math progressed without work - he gets him math...practically instant mastery of anything you teach him. On the other hand, I think he is a bit dyslexic, like older brother....but then he's only 7.... Take a deep breath, it will come back, slowly, and if you are still struggling this much several months from now, you probably need a different approach to LA....whether a kid is officially special needs, or just struggling, that advice would be the same. As the kids got older we at least now talk about "all the work we will have to repeat once break is over..." Its still way less than it would be in ps with 3 months off - but especially for my one with LDs, its frustrating... Erin

Saxon, at least elementary saxon, is very tedious for kids who like and get math - I would not persist unless your child loves it. One solution is doing half of the assignment, and only the other half is not perfect - but I still think its not a good program for kids who like math - AT the K-3 level at least. We switched to MM after little guy was finishing saxon 2 at age 5 and bored to tears - did MM 1, then continued on - even with "stepping back" as the MM is much more rigorour than saxon, he's whizzed through and is half-way through MM 3 and doing TT 4 for fun review...and if I had stayed with saxon, he would hitting 5/4 or 6/5 at 7??? I know, from the way saxon is taught, that he would be able to do the math, but not the format....this works better for him. Of all the choices, MM is the cheapest, and easiest to skip about in. The matery method with some review built in seems to most natural way of learning math - and we just do on line fact practice (he's doing Free Rice multiplication right now, and Khan academy....) on top....easy and free - no bells and whistles...and no endless worksheets of 1+2, or 1x2....when you really only need to work your 8s!!! I have heard that Saxon is much different at higher levels, and may think about it later, but would never go back to the elementary stuff! Erin

Are you doing the advanced readers from SL? My dd did SL Core 3 when she was 7/8, and the advanced readers were a great way to get her our of the "grader reader" mind frame and into "real" literature - especially as they "widen" the history we were talking about...and stretched her from reading at a 6th grade level but never finishing a novel...we just did seperate grammer....I too, couldn't make SL LA work. That being said, if she's enjoying what you are doing, another year of just going as fast as she wants would be fine....I personally think going broader, not always faster, is key - so make sure you've added in enough "electives", and fill the house with good books....she'll pick them up and broaden herself as maturity kicks in! Erin

Just a comment about MM - it is advanced - and if you don't start with it at MM1, some kids will falter with the mental math/conceptual approach. If you have the full package - then do BACK to whatever he's struggling with and get it down. I had to back my kids up a full year of 2 from Saxon when we switched, and now my oldest is doing MM 6 and pre- algebra from another curriculum at the same time... If you already taught all of MM 2 and your kiddo isn't getting it, then I'd try a different approach for that concept...but remember math understanding doesn't go at a steady pace...kids get "hung up", then "get it and move on"...we as mom's have to be patient. Erin

I see nothing wrong with your schedule - I notice your second grader is 8 years old, so I assume able to do more seat work than many 7 year old 2nd graders....unless you waited for a different reason. (I have one kid who is "old" for his grade because of LDs, and he does do more hours than a kid "at age level", and is ahead in many areas, but behind in others...perhaps you are working with a similar "odd fish") This is my 3rd time through "second grade", each kid has been different, and able to handle different amounts of work. For youngest, his year looks like this: Bible - with family, 20 minutes, 5 days a week,+3 hours of Sunday school Math - Math Mammoth 3 and likely part of 4, TT 4 for "fun" (likes the computer work, and its easy reveiw) Reading/Phonics - McRuffy 2 (finishing)(has spelling) SL readers 3 English - R&S 2...I wouldn't do 3 with him - gets into too much nitty gritty by the end - but then, he's only 7, and a math head! Violin - Suzuki book 2, practice 30-45 minutes/day, 5d a week, one lesson & one group class/week Art - Meet the Masters - with family and cousins, 1/month Cursive - A Reason for Handwriting C going slowly Spanish - Rosetta Stone - probably about 15-30 minutes, 5 times a week (fun) Typing - BBC Dance mat typing, 10 minutes a day (fun) Latin - trying to get them all through Latin for Children A...so far, not a go History - Sonlight Core C(second half of world history)+ SOTW cds for fun in car Science - SL books added in for fun on Weds, and a lab class in the Spring through a local University Extension HS class PE - gymnastics M/F, 3.5 hours each, also we have a farm, so there are chores. It looks like tons, but if you look closely, its a balance of only 2-2.5 hours max of seat/pencil work per day, about 30-40 minutes of computer work/day (max), 30-60 minutes per day of artistic work, and some family read aloud/listen to CD time...plus plenty of exercise. We've been doing this schedule for 3 weeks - and he's doing great and having plenty of time for legos...its the older kids I have trouble with! I do think that R&S as written and WWE will be alot, especially with written spelling, and if you do other pencil work too....but some kids LOVE workbook stuff...you know your child. For my kids it does work well to mix up the ways they are getting information through out the day (as above), and not do everything every day... Erin

I'd be interested. I've been told we'll "never know how smart he is because of his LDs - but its smart...." about my oldest - and the challenge of teaching a kid who can't learn well quite like "me" (traditional "gifted" kid), but who can grasp concepts that I struggle with in math and science - then not be able to think of a synonym for nice....hmmmmmmm... I think most kids don't fit into a "mold", but some are more square pegs than others, and it is nice to have a ear to lean on... Erin

Depends upon your kid....my son does 60-90 minutes of math a day. Either MM or Life of Fred, but if he does LOF he usually does 2 chapters and also some on line drill....and he's a slow poke. erin

My dylsexic sons tutor ( a specialist) strongly recommends cursive for all kids, but ESPECIALLY for kids with language based learning disorders - its easier to read in the end, and faster for them, and gets them thinking in whole words, etc... What we have done, is once they have done a year or two of cursive handwriting books, written work must be in cursive...all of it. As we hit middle school work, I will let them type some work, but anything else - cursive! Erin

I would agree that if PT and OT are not leading to slow but steady progress, than a pediatric neuro eval would be in order - although I would go in expecting that the most likely diagnosis is, in fact, Benign Congenital Hypotonia....still, needs to be done. I will say that it is absolutely true that strength makes a big difference. I will add our story, although not as clear. DD now just 9 walked at 17 months, is hyperflexible (so is DS 11) and had low tone initially - she didn't run well until 8, etc...but she is a successful competitive gymnast.... We started gym essentially as therapy (and for fun) with both older kids when they were toddlers...and I really think it made a huge difference for them...DD has always been super strong, just low ton, so she is unique...but still, my point is similar to the other "success" stories. Find physical activity that is fun and build on the kids strengths. Emphasize proper movements that build core strength, so those joints don't get damaged...(martial arts are good for the same reason...) A good PT will be working on this with you. Erin

:grouphug: Another hug for your difficulties! I also agree that this sounds like sensory difficulties - and the related OT issues...which don't always go with other "diagnoses", but aren't just "boy problems". Does your school district not do any speech other than the special needs pre-school?, because sounds like your little one would qualify there too.... At least do some personal research on sensory integration and the like, as it may give you some practical ways to help him... I, personally, wouldn't think about ps in this case, but then I can't imagine homeschooling 2 sn kids, then worrying about kinder in ps with a boy who will appear immature and have difficulty with many of the kinder skills - even if he's ready academically....I am, however, a bit "burned out" having had lots of patients brought to me for "add" workup just because they struggle with kinder...some small number who really have add, but lots with other issues the schools just can't deal with...so I am a big fan of homeschooling kids like you describe. Anyhow, at 5, there are lots of sensory activities you can do on your own, and you can certainly alter "kinder" at home to limit writing, etc...he's still really young....but if there is any way to get some OT testing and therapy, and maybe speech, I'd look there...now, or later if able... Erin

Notify the school in writing that you would like your daughter tested, a full battery of Psych/Ed testing. A child who they are recommending be held back a SECOND YEAR? - It is ridiculous that they have not done this on their own. Legally, they will be required to document reasons for her failure to progress - and that will require testing! If the school balks, go to your pediatrician and ask for help - any pediatrician worth their salt can document cognitive delays, "learning disorder Not Otherwise Specified", etc, and send a letter to the school, etc....I do it all the time! Really, a child at 8 who has been in a classroom, exposed to reading for several years, and is still at a pre-reading level....that child is not likely to be a "late reader", more likely has a language based learning difference or disability, and the sooner you find it and alter your teaching (or the schools, which you can demand if the testing is done), the better. 8 year olds who can't read don't, in general, feel good about themselves....I know, I had one....who would have slid by in ps, getting slightly below average grades, being considered "young", or "average", or "distracted", etc....well, on full testing he is NOT average, but severelly dyslexic with the processing speed of an sloth, but a high IQ....and learning that made a HUGE difference in how he has been taught at home, how the school district has tested him yearly (he qualified for non-timed testing, directions read to him, etc....which allowed him to show his real knowledge...)...your child could similarly benefit. The schools are struggling to stay open, and money is tight everywhere - but only you can advocate for your child...and this one needs it! erin

We have never tried to do a "lesson a day" with Math Mammoth - some days 3 pages is fast, some days 2 is plenty...depends upon the subject. In general, though, my kids have always finished easily in less than a year - My oldest is using MM 6 for his spine this year and using LoF (finishing percents and has prealgebra with bio) for a supplement (already did fractions). He also did TT7 most of last year and will finish that. I just look at a lesson, and usually shoot for him to do 3-4 a week... Same for youngest in MM 3 - although he does about 1.5 levels a year so far.... Erin

math mamoth, Life of Fred, and occaisionally TT (several levels "ahead"). Most happy with MM...but my most mathy one is only just turned 7, and I am a little "stuck" with the transition into alegebra for older....who is probably gifted (is in music, but otherwise hard to test) but has severe dyslexia and anxiety, so likes to really "understand" his math (as in, gets nervous with "problem solving" and is getting great grades in "pre-algebra" stuff, but totally stressed out!!!). Erin