Do you object to the division for everyone or just for yourself? 'cos I can see that religion is meant to be and certainly can be a conduit for true spirituality....but it isnt necessarily so and quite often, even the opposite (in other words, religion can be a cover for all sorts of things not remotely spiritual). I have a passion for stripping away the bells and smells and seeing where there is "life" in the religious structure- where it is still a living religion, and where it has been killed by dogma and beliefs out of context, and used by priests to manipulate the masses. But that split is not so strong in every religion and the nature based religions like paganism seem to me to be very alive because they are dealing with living energies in our present environment, which one can actually tune into, not just beliefs one needs to take on faith.

I would say...it seems to be so, that people need a religious belief for morality, and morality is a good thing for the vast masses, to keep them in line. However...although I would not for a minute want to take away morality from the masses, it is my experience that the more one grows in consciousness (awareness), the less one needs an external system of morality in order to live a good life. One can rely on one's own inner guidance and goodness, and be quite secure in the knowledge one will not go off and rape and murder, and one will try to do one's best to be kind and coonsiderate of one's fellow mankind, since one realises they are just the same as oneself. Once you bring "the devil" into the picture, you have fear and you can be controlled by people who run religions. If you realise the devil is fear itself and has no independent ability to harm you or anyone, excpet the power you yourself give it....you can rest in knowing that GUS is good, and not need to cling to anything in order to be safe from whatever the opposite to GUS is supposed to be- although one can instead be inspired by whatever system/s inspires one to live from GUS rather than personal, small minded ego.

I think "the economy" is a pretty abstract concept that covers so many nuances it would not be possible to succinctly sum it up. However, seeing how many hours a day (and night) so many of the dhs here work....I really consider these to be a kind of dark times for at least Americans in general, and probably many others. They may be able to afford things previous generations couldn't...but the price is awfully high! Since when is working 12 hour days a life? That is slavery to a system that is obviously working very well for someone, but I am not sure who. The cost of living here is getting higher and higher yet our state is having a boom. The benefits do not spread across everyone- they are selective. Same with "the economy". There are people who thrive during every economic "depression". We are fairly insulated also (actually, Australia is doing fairly well, relative to other countreis), but on a personal level, our electricity bill has literally doubled in the last 12 months, and it was pretty high before. The cost of living has gone up tremendously. However, we live well, we homeschool, I work only part time, dh works only part time. Having money doenst make a good life, but not having any is obviously very difficult for many people. Is "the economy" about quality of life, or about just $$$. Who knows. Obviously many people in the U.S. have been hit hard.

What I dont get is why people think that proseletyzing is the most effective way of getting your point of view across. or in this case, converting people to Christianity. It just isnt. It annoys people. It makes them wrong and you right. It is righteous. It is obnoxious behaviour. Living the truth is what Jesus did, far more than preaching it. I am not saying he didnt preach- but what he did do was live unconditional love and selflessness and he spoke against the politics of the day. His preaching was in a lot of context. When the modern proseletizers start living their truth as deeply as Jesus did, I will listen to them, because they will be coming from a deeply resonant space that I personally aspire to. But then, I doubt they would be banging us with their Bible, they will be getting on with changing what needs to be changed, with love, in our times, and not making me feel I am wrong for having my own beliefs, integrity and spiritual understandings, from my own life experience. I really wonder if they have stopped and checked and done a scientific study as to whether proseletyzing people actually works, or iif it just makes peopel feel better to do it. I would rather people focus on the log in their own eye first, and also have an open mind. I am friends with a beautiful Franscescan monk who is an example of what I am talking about. He owns virtually nothing and lives in a vow of poverty, yet is grateful for everything he is given. He is open minded. He studies other religions and doesnt dismiss them as wrong, evne though he is highly educated in Christian theology. He sees truth in all of them. He is passionate about his own religion without seeing others' as inferior. He listens and is deeply compassionate. He is not afraid to spend time in Buddhist or Hindu ashrams. He lives his truth and walks his path and is a living inspiration...and if you are open to it, he will share with you and try to get you to see the beauty and light in his beloved Christianity. But he won't make you wrong for not being converted, even though he would love to convert you. That is who would inspire me to become Christian, if anyone could.

I am sure we have all been in similar situations. I think that kindness is not necessarily to be given to others more than oneself, and it is not selfish to do as you did. There is no need to feel guilty for being kind to oneself and not taking on more than one could reasonably handle, especially when the other has other options. And especially when you are the sort of person who actualyl considers whether you can help or not, and would like to in some way, but just feels like it is too much.

I think that is a very shallow and westernised view of a very deep concept and no, that definition of karma, I do not believe in, because it is obiously not true. However when one gives, one automatically receives the benefit of giving- immediate karma. When one gives, one becomes less self obsessed, less selfish. From that space, one is more likely to attract positive energy from others. But I think it is a deep concept that shoudl not be trivialized into "if I give, I will get back" because that might be a motivation for some, but it still isnt really a pure motivation(any more than giving in order to get into Heaven is a pure motivation). And the time scale may be huge- the returning of the good fortune may not be immediate, and it probably wont come from the person you helped in the first place, although it might. The reward is in the giving itself- or the being willing to receive- which is the other side of giving and jsut as important. We often get stuck on one side of the coin. So yes,I believe in karma as a self evident incredibly complex system of just the way the world works- but not as a simplistic do this and get that kind of concept.

I didn't even know what secular meant until I came to these boards in about 1993 and found myself labelled as such. My scientific father (astronomer) was probably a strong influence in my not taking up Christianity (he still shakes his head in bewilderment that his sister can be a fundamentalist), He is quite atheist. However dh and I have strong spiritual leanings, with distinct eastern religious flavors (Buddhism and Vedanta), I have always had a fascination with finding the essence of any true spiritual path, which usually involves stripping it of its religious aspects. I have a love for nature based religions such as paganism, but would say I am more in alignment with shamanism as a spiritual path. I don't like box myself into any label though and like to remain fresh and curious, and find the common ground rather than emphasise differences. I do believe in angels and fairies, because I am aware that the spectrum of reality that we are conscious of is very narrow, and it would be naive to presume that only that exists which we can sense with our 5 normal senses. Bbut even though I studied it, I am not convinced about homeopathy. :)

I am not sure what triggered your post, but I would suggest that there is a wide space between not wanting someone's religious views shoved down your throat at any time, and not wanting those people to have the freedom to have those beliefs and share them in appropriate venues. What those appropriate venues might be, might be a better topic for debate, because I don't think anyone is thinking free speech is a bad thing. It doesnt bother me if someone stands on a soap box in a public square and preaches their truth. Thats pretty public, and I am fine with it. It does bother me if they do it loudly and publically in a restaurant I frequent however I will jsut ot come back. If they do it in my personal space such as my website, FB account or whatever it is not free speech , it is an invasion of my personal space. I am sure a proseletyzing Christian would not appreciate a proseletyzing Jew, Buddhist or Muslim doing the same to them. It is the righteousness of it that is so annoying. Please, do it in appropriate places, by all means, but do not infringe upon the rights of others to have their own personal space unimpinged.

Hi Negin- very interesting! And not surprising. I suspect a lot of us with hormonal issues would find the same.

I really think you secular people in the U.S. must have a harder time than we in Australia. I think we must be a much higher proportion of heathens over here because I dont come across it much- enough to know it exists, but not much. Although I have strong Christian relatives, they are the minority in my life- I am not surrounded by them. America seems to identify as a very Christian nation, in a quite fundamentalist /evangalistic type of way, wheras here, although most might identify with Christianity in a general, cultural way...I think the proportion who are "active" is much, much less. It almost sounds like you need to defend your lack of faith in the Christian religion, as a human right or something. Yeah, I would have thought posting something like that would make it pretty clear where you stand too, Sandra, but apparently that just makes you fair game for someone to tell you where they stand just as strongly. As if your quote threatens them so much they must say something. The more I think about it, the more I think I would defriend them once I had had my fun debating with them.

I am also in the most isolated city on the planet- Perth, in W.A.- and I dont feel isolated at all. In fact, its a blessing, because Perth is a modern city but I find the lifestyle here wonderful. I come from Sydney. I cannot imagine feeling isolated there. From here, we can fly to Sydney (where my family live) for about $400Au each, return. Most places in Australia are about the same cost. We can however fly to Bali for less than that, including accomodation. We can also fly to India or Thailand very cheaply. Australia is very beautiful and vast. Lots to see and do here. As Sandra says, you would never run out of amazing destinations, from the Snowy Mountains to the Great Barrier Reef, to Ningaloo, Margaret River or Kakadu.

Wow. My dh is self employed. He works maybe 20 hours a week. Sometimes extra if he feels like it. However, he works 7 days a week- just not all day. 6 evenings, 4 mornings. I work about 10 hours a week at most. We live well. Comfortably. Obviously we are the lucky few.

Depends where you live etc as others have said. Also, I had the sort of kids who jsut didnt do silly things. I dont know why, but they didnt. They didnt drink poison from bottles under teh sink, they didnt climb on the roof or hang from the rafters when I went out of sight. So, combining their temperaments, with the relatively safe areas we have lived in, and the fact they were together a lot...and for us, a lot earlier than many others. Go in the front yard without me? I remember ds at age 7, when we first pulled him out of school, was wandering around looking for bugs in the front yard on his own.Probably well before then- age 4 or 5. Once I knew they wouldnt run on the road for anything (even a ball etc) I was ok with them in the front yard. Stay home for a short period of time? I have 2 kids close in age. Dh and I would go for a walk around the neighbourhood once they were around 4 and 5 years old, leaving them in front of a video. Babysit younger sibs? Mine didnt babysit- they are 17 months apart and were considered equal. We never let their half sister, 5 years older than them, babysit them, because she was not sensible- diagnosed ADHD- and they were safer when she wasnt there. Bikes close to home ? For that one I have been later than many. They were fine when we lived right on a bike path- in that case, by the time they were riding bikes I was happy with them riding out of sight, knowing they were going short distances. By 8 or so they would go off for an hour or two- together or with their older sister (although again, they were probably safer without her). That was only on the bike path, however, and we have lived along a river most of their lives, right opposite a bike path. I would not allow my kids to ride on the road until they were 12 years old. Until around age 12, kids dont have proper adult peripheral vision and I do not believe they are as safe on the road as I would like, until that age. To me, cars are a far bigger threat, and realer one, than possible kidnappings etc, so no bikes on the road until 12.

:iagree: I love the concept, but unless your kids are inclined that way.... In my home, it wouldn't happen. However, as they get older I do try and get them to take more responsibility for their own education, and in doing that, I take their own inclinations into consideration much more than before. However I did not homeschool from the beginning so my kids came to homeschooling a little jaded form the system and that has never really left them 100%...and my kids are not like me, who would have enjoyed many aspects of a classical education as a child, and been self motivated. Not sure I woudl have had the discipline to unschool classically though.

I think I would just be a tad annoyed but many Christians (not all, though) do see it as their duty to say something. And unfortuNately if you respond it is usually like talking to a brick wall because there is no room for debate with those sorts of dogmatic beliefs.In other words, you cannot argue with a belief that the person sees as fact. So the only way to deal with them without raising your blood pressure is to respond to the behavior rather than the content...maybe unfriend them, or simply say you feel it was unnecessary and you don't liked being preached at and don't do it again.Set a boundary and leave it at that. I think if younreacted there is something for you to learn in how to deal with such situations- Facebook is a public place. I have seen far more blatant "attacks" on quotes even in my own circle, on Facebook, so obviously people do see a quote as provocation to debate and opinions, whether or not that is your intent.

I am one of those people who has felt alien her whole life. As a young child, I was actually alienated for being bright. I can distinctly remember getting teased in the playground for being "brainy". Then my 2nd grade teacher treated me badly because my parents took me overseas for 6 weeks. I was also very shy and introverted. Then I was sent to a private Christian girls' school, and I could not relate to the other girls there. I was not Christian. I did not care about what brand shoes I wore or whether my socks had frills on them. I always felt on the outer because as a child I just wasnt interested in the same things as other kids. By age 13, I was getting into alternative spirituality, yoga, meditation, and I used to get my friends to sit in areas where no one came (in the school grounds), and Om like monks. (Don't tell me there is no such thing as past lives. I knew no one who was into this stuff!). As a young adult, I found people I could relate to and have done ever since- I do have many friends and aquaintances that I relate to- but we are not "mainstream" and I never have been. I would not want it any other way- especially as I get older- but it was definitely a challenge when young. I say celebrate your uniqueness. Who wants to be part of the mainstream anyway?

:iagree:. I read A Thousand Splendid Suns first. I rarely read novels but someone told me I had to read this one- so glad I did. Powerful.

Arent those sort of questions called "Philosophy"? I have this book : Philosophy for Kids amazon.com/Philosophy-Kids-Questions-Wonder-Everything/dp/1882664701/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277873752&sr=8-1 and it asks questions such as : Are you a fair and just person? Should you ever tell a lie? Are there times when you should be violent? Do we control our technology or does our technology control us? Can you lie to yourself? Can computers think? Shoudl you always listen to the opinions of others? Do two wrongs balance our and make an action right? OK so these arent quite the same as what you are looking at, but this is the basic kids book- I notice there is an advanced version of the kids book, and a teenager version (Questioning Lifes Big Ideas)- the topics might extend more in the direction you are looking for. At the least, the questions and discussions would give a context for extending that kind of questioning into history and other topics which come up.

My kids are ages 14 and 16 now, but they have been doing teh same chores since before they were 12: Alternate weeks each: One child does ALL the dishwashing and kitchen cleaning work- 3 times a day, every day, every alternate week. We have a dishwasher, but there is plenty more to do on top of that- washing pots and pans, cleaning surfaces, putting things away. The other child in that week will feed the chickens and when we had a rabbit, the rabbit, that week. Dd also cleans and checks the pool every day, and ds does all teh bins. Both kids do their own waashing (have done for years) and clean their rooms. They also help with vacuuming, dusting and extra chores as needed.

Bringing a plate to an informal function is pretty standard around where I live- (often instead of presents). But not to those sorts of things. I find baby showers a bit over the top no matter what you are asked to do or bring. I never had one and I find the whole concept a bit rude, personally. Once a baby is born, fine, bring a gift on your first visit to see the new babe, but that is different from throwing a party to get gifts whileyou are pregnant- then what, you are meant to give more after the birth? I would not pay to go to a party unless I really wanted to go to the party for some personal reason. Certainly not out of obligation. And I wouldnt call it a party- I would called it a function. For dh and my wedding, we asked for no gifts because we were already established in a home, with children, and we didnt need anything, and didn't want a whole lot of "stuff". We asked that people bring a plate of food instead of a present. We provided drinks and wedding cake. I can understand that a young couple starting out in life get presents for their wedding. It is practical and a way for the whole community surrounding the couple to support them off to a good start in life. Gift giving (whether its money or stuff) has become so obligatory and plain greedy though, and I find myself resenting sending presents to my parents, who I see every 2-3 years if I'm lucky, 3 times a year! What for? What does it mean? Its a shame that the consumerism of gift giving has poluted the beauty of true gift giving from the heart.

Are they aggressive snakes? Here in Australia we have many poisonous snakes, some deadly, but very few are aggressive (tiger snakes being the main ones that sometimes are). Mostly, they run the other direction. You have to actually step on it to get bitten, usually. I have a lot of respect for snakes and actually love them. We have a non poisonous pet snake and he has helped diffuse that primal fear of snakes. The snake is just doing its thing and doesn't deserve hatred. It is scary though, of course, and the few times I have come across snakes in the wild my heart beats very, very fast- but they have always moved away, not come closer. One place I lived in the bush, we grew garlic all around the house- it supposedly keeps snakes away. Dogs can be good deterrents of snakes, too.

I get a feel for what you are asking, Rose, and I absolutely love it and have wondered about it myself. The whole "worldview" concept that Christians use has piqued my interest as to how we as "non Christians" might frame a worldview that is broad and inclusive yet allowing for opinions and personal perspectives. I think perhaps it is SUCH a large topic, though, that perhaps it would be difficult to have a definitive guide, so to speak. Although I guess I am talkign more about content that the "theory" or structure, which seems to be more like what you are asking. I am researching university courses at the moment and in my local rather liberal university, it seems that they insist one takes electives that would give one a broad (er) worldview, no matter the course one takes. It seems to me that developing a wide worldview is something that universities take seriously. I think I would prefer a "worldview" manual such as what you are looking for, rather than studying formal logic, personally. Yes, exactly. But its up to us to "own" the term for ourselves so that they don't remain the only ones to define the term. Like others, I try to teach worldview as we go, and I also try to be as . My own worldview always feels very limited by what I have read and come across, however. In fact, Susan Wise Bauer and also these boards have done a lot to form my worldview in many, many areas. But it all depends on what you are exposed to, who you are brought up by, the culture you are in, etc. I guess I try to help the kids realise that everyone does what they do for a reason, and it can help us udnerstand them better- whether its an individual or a culture or an event in history- if you can dig more deeply and see what motivated them. Perhaps worldview in a secular sense could just be taught by framing our teaching of history, literature etc, a certain way. Why do these people act like this? What is their motivation? What is the culture, the times? Why did Hitler get to rise to power- what was the situation that allowed it to happen? In a way, to me it is an extension of having compassion for everyone and the way they act/acted, by understanding the context of their lives. The thing is....those who want their kids to have an ability to "regularly look at what individuals and societies have done and do so the children can hook those actions up with the belief systems they would seem to match" as a foundation for worldview- which I take as meaning, they want their kids to see things with context- already probably do this naturally as they teach. I do it to teh best of my ability because I have an interest in doing that. And those who want to teach through a particular specific worldview, such as a Christian one, and see history through that filter, will do that. Isnt gaining a healthy and broad worldview also just a part of being well educated? Just rambling.

We never did "summer school" except for reading aloud in the evenings. Its a lovely idea that my kids would have hated me for. Badly. Our holiday time is sacred time to them- not to be filled with school things. Except for reading- I can get them to read. So thats enough. There is something about just letting it all go for a few weeks. *I* need that sort of break as well, to catch up on my own interests such as doing tax (ha ha- well, I will be next week when our winter holidays start), cleaning the house and also getting into my garden, and my creativity (painting, writing etc). Also, dh and I spend more time together when its holidays.

I have just been studying the Great Depression in Australia (with my kids) and we were in great debt to Britain, because after WW1 we borrowed money to stimulate our own economies and build infrastructure, roads, a new capital city etc. It did stimulate the economy, but when the World Economic Collapse came, and no one wanted to buy our wool and wheat (which was how we made money to pay back the loans), we were stuffed. There was a lot of conflict in government because some leaders had radical proposals. A British economist came out and gave the Australian government advice- conservative advice to cut back public spending radically ( so as to repay the loans). What happened was inevitable- massive unemployment. Eventually they resumed public spending against British advice. I think probably either way is simplistic. It is quite complex, it seems to me. Here in Australia, they dig minerals out of the ground at a phenomenal rate and sell them off to the Chinese. That's why we arent feeling the impact very much. But to me...it is short sighted. One day teh minerals will run out and meanwhile, where in our society has that money been spent wisely for future generations? I don't presume to know much at all. I just wish people in power would think long term, as in many future generation- rather than short term fixes. I suspect that "stimulating the economy" is a short term fix, but I dont really know. The whole foundation of our capitalistic system seems corrupted and anything we do is just rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic. People with deep integrity and deep vision need to be in charge, but our system doesnt allow for that to happen either. I am not optimistic for our present way of life. I am optimistic that we can change and our children and their children may have better ideas than our outdated and short sighted leaders, though. I think change will be forced on us one way or another, and we had better be prepared for it.

A ttimes we have done 4 or more, but that included a Latin and a Science class. At the moment, it is Gym and Scouts for one, and the same with piano for the other. This is the least we have ever done. There are seasons. In some years we did a lot and it seemed important at the time- although I did always try to keep 3 days a week at home, and especially mornings. I knew my own limits and I prioritised schoolwork. The extra curriculars were what my kids looked forward to and what they loved the most about homeschooling. It was an important part of our schoolweek- socially, and academically. However, my kids are extroverts- it was hard on me, an introvert, but I did it for them. But now that we are home more and my kids have their social life more in evenings and on weekends, and they also organise it themselves, I find I miss the adult social interaction I had during their extra curriculars, myself. I tend to get a bit isolated and no longer feel a part of the local homeschooling community. It seems to happen for many once their kids hit mid teens and the kids have honed their activities down to the ones they really want. I tried to take my kids to a nature educaitonal activity (that appealed to me) that did reach up to their age group but they were the oldest and they realyl disliked it. So....enjoy the freedom to do lots of things when they are young, but also keep your life balanced. Balanced for us happened to be lots of activities many years- without them, we would have been unbalanced and too much at home for them. For others, balanced is going to be more at home. ETA I just remembered that dd16 also does watercolour art classes and has done for years- so , I guess she is still doing 4 after all. Thats not counting the online classes she does as well. I guess we do lots!