My son (going into 6th) finally became a fluent reader after Christmas last year (he had just turned 11). His spelling is still atrocious, but that's improving. His writing is... well he still struggles. We've tried Bravewriter, Writing Tales and Writing Strands, but nothing has really helped. I've realized from the beginning that I've learned well with abstract material and unclear directions, but ds needs clear explanations and concrete expectations. I've had trouble providing that clarity as a writing instructor. After reading the sample pages of SWB's writing book (they are here - scroll down), I realized at least some of the reasons that ds was having trouble. I've been expecting him to be able to do stuff that I've never explicitly taught him to do (putting his thoughts into a format that works for written communication). We are going to back up this year and spend a lot of time on narration and dictation. I'll be there writing for him, so I'll be able to continue to work on all the aspects of sentence formation, as well as helping him organize his thoughts. I've ordered the WWE writer's text, and I hope that I can accelerate his progress and get him up to grade level in a year or two. So I guess I'm saying that WWE might work for my son. I don't know if your son needs the same sort of incremental, orderly approach, but if he does, I think WWE might work for him too. Good Luck,

I remember when the Kingfisher Illustrated History of the World was so pricey. I had just started into TWTM approach and I was astounded at how a recommendation in a Homeschooling book had inflated the price of an out-of-print book. Looking back it kind of made me think that the WTM approach was something a little bit out of the ordinary if it had so many fervent adherents. Thanks so much for the tip. It would be lovely to have a single source for outlining. Anybody out there able to review the DK Definitive Visual History?

Sounds like I should buy the new edition of the WTM. I've been on board break for a long while, and I just read some reviews that indicate that logic stage resources have been revamped the most - and I've been planning with the 2nd edition. I think you're right that outlining is the fundamental skill on which note-taking and writing a paragraph are based, so best to focus on that. I suppose at this point I should just figure out how much writing I think ds should be doing, and in what subjects (and whether I ought to stick with Writing Strands...) Just finished reading an excerpt of SWB's writing book and that's made me think about working with narration for more of our writing, since ds's skills still have some rather gapping gaps. Thanks again

I've been searching for information on putting together all the different aspects of writing for my ds 11. Last year in our 2nd semester, I had him begin 1st level outlining, using the Kingfisher History Encyclopedia. I really had to be there helping him quite a bit, and I didn't feel that the KHE was all that easy to use as a first outlining source. (He is not yet a strong writer). I haven't yet read the newest edition of the WTM, although I'm waiting for it through our library (currently 9th in the queue...). Anyhow, I believe I've read here that the new recommendation for a logic history spine is History: The Definitive visual Guide by DK. Who has used it for outlining? Is it easier, worth getting? Lastly, we're using Writing Strands as a writing program and Analytical Grammar this year (last year it was Easy Grammar). I'm not sure that we are going to run across any specific outlining, note taking or short report instruction, and I'm wondering if I need something. Can I just go with my recollections, bolstered by SWB's basic instructions in TWTM and some web sites, or is this so fundamental that I should seek out definitive teaching source? Thanks so much,

My ds still has a difficult time with time. Evidently this is part of dyslexia for him. Anyhow, I set the year to music. Specifically to the refrain from "MacNamara's Band" (Toodily - ooo - ooo is converted to Janu - ar - y - y etc.) I'd sing it for you if I could, obviously this is not the medium.... (be happy!) I know some who feel that this crutch is detrimental, (and yes, at 11 he still hums the song to figure out how many more months until Halloween) but I've decided to do what works for him, and this works Good Luck!

Both Lefties Both mirror writers at ages 4 and 5. With my ds (who is dyslexic), he was not at all driven to write (hated it is the word...), and certain letter and number reversals persisted until he was 9 (when we followed Ron Davis's recommendations in The Gift of Dyslexia). At 11 he still has difficulties with time; days of the week and months mostly, he does well with daily events. He is above average with his spatial intelligence. Dd 6 spent last year sculpting letters and words, and most of her reversals have worked themselves out. She has always Loved to write and would spend much time at 4 and 5 drawing pictures and writing stories (strings of backwards letters with no spacing, but mostly correct with simple phonics). In May she declared herself ready to read and she's just plowing through everything I give her (she has known her letter sounds since age 3 - so had ds, but when I tried to teach her to read the previous fall, she just did not get it at all, so we waited). I still wonder if I hadn't pushed my son to start reading too early and had him sculpt his letters and play phonics games instead if we could have avoided years of difficulty...

We've used electricity and magnetism and plan to use (some of) corn and beans and radishes this year. TOPS manages to do for science what RightStart does for math. The lessons are not at all formal or didactic. Instead there is a very gentle sort of guidance that brings the learner to the point of "getting it" without direct instruction. There is no memorization (required), but my ds has learned much in context. There is no rule that is set forth, rather the rule is internalized through first completing the experiment, then explained directly after the concept is understood. This was hard for me when we started using RS, (Why don't they just teach the kids borrowing instead of all this hoo-haa with the abacus?) but when I saw how thoroughly my ds understood the concepts, I was sold. Now if I could just get off my duff and start all the collecting and copying to implement "Lentil Science..."

I've read a bit about different history programs for the logic stage lately, and I'm wondering why folks are opting for a program instead of the approach outlined in TWTM (read, "Do I need to buy a logic stage history curriculum?). What's the main reason for purchasing a logic stage history program? Ease of use? Religion? For those of you who do use TWTM approach, is it difficult to implement? How do you tweak it for your homeschool? If you were to purchase a few "add-ons" for WTM history, what would they be? Thanks for helping me plan :)

Lori, I so appreciate comments from a someone who's BTDT with dyslexia. My son's plenty bright, so I never think of it as a disability, until I read about what a typical kid might be capable of at his age. It's always reassuring to know that others are finding creative ways to guide their children into competency in their trouble areas I think I just need to be prepared to continue a lot of 1 on 1 teaching for a while longer. My middle girl has just asked to start school, and I wish that I could invest "equal" amounts of time in each of them, but she has the good luck to be super quick, and is advancing with little effort. I think that as we start to do researched paragraphs, I will use your one week breakdown. I often forget how long some things might take, and it would increase my ds's confidence to be able to take it one slow step at a time. Today we did our first single level outline - mostly by narration. His ability to pick out a main idea was fine. He mostly just needed help condensing a couple of sentences together into a single more complex sentence, and we were both pleased at what he was able to do. Thanks again,

OhElizabeth, I read your post early today, and I've been wondering about Writing Strands and our writing style ever since (writing is my current bugaboo, along with spelling). We've tried CW and Bravewriter, and Writing Strands is the first program that my son has enjoyed at all. Ds finished his CW work very quickly, but he never felt invested in it. Finally, he told me (essentially), "I'm just rewriting a story, and everyone but you would rather read the original, so what's the point?" I find that I am spending a long time with Writing Strands because he knows what "good writing" sounds like (from years of read alouds and audio books), but he just can't get there on his own yet. Generally, I am making suggestions as to how improve sentence structure, or improve his clarity. I hope I'm not holding his hand too much. Maybe this much help means that he shouldn't even be doing this level of work (but it's just Writing Strands 3, and his finished products are pretty good). Thanks so much for your comments - I think I should work with narrations for a while longer, and take a look at WWE.

When I started HSing, TWTM looked like an ideal education to me, but I never felt like we could handle it because if the heavy focus on reading and writing (we deal with dyslexia). I have recently picked it up again since my son is finally reading reasonably well. I know from reading here that not too many folks actually follow through on the whole program, but I am wondering about how folks handle all the recommended writing. If I'm understanding correctly, a logic stage child would be reading and outlining history each week, along with a brief written summary of some related outside reading. There would also be writing for science, and then whatever assignment from a writing curriculum. (We do Writing Strands, and that takes about 45 minutes daily, with me there helping all the while, since it's a very difficult skill for him). Do folks just focus on outlining one week and writing assignments the next? How does one handle this especially when dealing with someone getting a late start? I would love to finally be able to really use the WTM approach, but I know that I'll need to build toward it. I'd appreciate any suggestions. Thanks!

:grouphug: I started dealing with depression and insomnia when I was around your son's age. It got really bad when I went away to college. It helped me to know that I wasn't alone (my Dad struggles with depression and insomnia, and we talked). It helped me to exercise. I've read quite a bit recently about the benefits of Omega-3 fatty acids for a range of mental illnesses. It helped me to spend time outside in nature (maybe sunlight, maybe just nature drawing me away from my thoughts). It helped me to be by myself (not sitting in my room - exercising or just walking outside - I was in very crowded settings at this point, and being alone took away the stress of keeping up a front). It helped me to meditate (I read a study on the effects of meditation vs. tri-cyclic anti-depressant about 20 years ago. Meditation was very effective in treating some types of depression. The type I did was concentrating on just thinking "in...out" with your breathing. The idea was to let go of your thoughts and experience some time each day when you were "just being," not thinking. The poem Desiderata helped. I wouldn't feel bad about trying to help your son at home first. For him to help himself through this will be so empowering, and most mild depression can be handled just as you have outlined your plans. Also, your son chose to talk to you, he's not retreating into himself, and that's so positive. It's also positive that he's not self-medicating. Encourage him to let you know how he's doing frequently (I Hated people asking me, but I felt a sense of relief to know that there was a calm, loving person with whom I could safely talk). I would try what you have outlined for a few months. Let your son know your plans (and why it is good for him to have a strategy for handling these feelings. Don't convey your stress, instead convey your love and confidence that he will be better and stronger for learning these things now). Also let him know that if he needs to talk to someone outside the family that you will make that happen. Then talk to DH and prepare him for that possibility (and use the time to research low-cost options). I did see a few counsellors for a while in college. It took me three times to find someone who would work for me. The ones that didn't work were AWFUL, and actually quite damaging. The woman that helped mostly listened, and encouraged me to take excellent care of myself. I ended up taking homeopathic sleep aids here and there (still do!), and learning how to do yoga, as an active form of meditation (still do this too). Mostly, I learned how to control my stress and help myself. My thoughts are with you and your son, and I wish you an early spring! Good Luck,

My son loves wood-working and carving, and we've used several of the books mentioned above, but I'm going to advocate for the "girly" handwork for just a second. I learned to knit with my son to help him learn to read (long explanation, but it has something to do with the advantages of "crossing the midline," and was recommended as a part of Waldorf philosophy). It is now 3 years later and we both knit, and we've both made some useful items. It has increased his confidence so that he trusts that he can do anything with his hands, and he has since picked up crochet and needle felting. Mostly, he has made small items; bags, little pouches, hotpads and potholders. With the needle felting he made this fantastic "playscape" for his little cousin's Christmas present. (He made islands with caves to hide in and mountains and streams and such. We dyed a big playcloth blue - for the ocean, and now they all play mermaids and pirates with their figures). Some of the advantages of knitting and such is that they are portable and a great way to pass the time, and they are Not Messy :D. My son is very much a boy, and since his friends have seen him knit, they have wanted to learn too. They don't do it when they hang out together (swords and shields and legos then), but they have all learned. Just had to advocate for the potential masculinity of knitting! :D

When I spoke to the RightStart rep about the same question, they recommended their Geometry program for 5th grade. They also made it very clear that it wasn't solely focused on geometry. Instead, it is basically Level F, and while there is lots of drawing and geometry, all previously covered concepts are explored and expanded upon. When one is mid-way through the geometry program (lesson 95), they recommend starting Videotext Algebra (module A). Then one would alternate RS and VT week by week until completing RS. After finishing RS the recommendation is Videotext Algebra and then VT Geometry.

Here's a quote from Tiner's Exploring the World of Chemistry: "Like gold, silver is used for jewelry and money. The Old Testament tells how Joseph's brothers sold him to the Ishmaelites for 20 pieces of silver (Genesis 37:28). Later Joseph became governor of all Egypt. He concealed a silver cup, probably made in Egypt, in the grain sack belonging to his brother, Benjamin (Genesis 44: 4-12)." This is in a chapter about "money metals" along with much interesting scientific information. This is the way Tiner brings the Bible into this book. Most of the citations are simply letting the reader know that whatever substance is being discussed was mentioned in the Bible. There is no creation/evolution material that I've seen, and there doesn't seem to be any outward proselytizing. Rather he's writing to a assumed Christian audience, and thinks they might value knowing about Biblical references or the beliefs of a scientist. I would say that this book has a much more Christian "feel" than SOTW.

Right now we are doing a semester of chemistry using an old book called Chemically Active. This is a book of experiments, but it is in a chapter by chapter format, and it builds on itself. We are doing it as a co-op with 8 boys (7 - 14, but geared to the 10 - 14 crowd), and the co-op setting is creating a fantastic amount of enthusiasm. I'm also having my son read The Mystery of the Periodic Table, Exploring the World of Chemistry, and we're using The Periodic Table as a fun reference. This is our rough plan for next year: Earth Science using Discover Nature in the Rocks as our spine. Human Anatomy using Blood and Guts and The Body Book as our spines (no pun). And some basic Middle Ages physics thrown in with The Art of the Catapult. If you're considering using Chemically Active, PM me, and I will share my plans and notes (that's for anyone). Hope that Helps,

We have used TOPS science modules for magnetism and electricity, and really enjoyed them. The experiments are quick and easy to set up, and they have all worked as planned. These do require the shopping list (and several stops) to acquire all the bits and pieces, but it's never expensive material. I would think that while a K student might have fun watching the "stuff" happen, the it might be difficult to truly achieve understanding (but then you could redo all the experiments a few years down the road - the TOPS stuff is non-consumable). You could even get a module and just set up the fun demonstration (1 D cell lights a bulb, 2 in a row make it brighter etc.), and then talk/narrate about what you did. Have Fun!

I don't want to sound like a Cassandra, but beware of "Waldorf Guilt." This is the phenomenon in which you start to drive yourself batty because nothing is ever up to the wonderful, wholesome, peaceful, rhythmic days/products that you imagine Waldorf will bring. Guess that sounded almost snarky, but it isn't meant to be. I think lots of folks bring Waldorf into their HSing almost effortlessly, and never look back. However, I've known quite a few who feel like they've failed at being "Waldorf enough." More than any other curr. I've experienced, there are Rules with Waldorf. Normally, I'm the type who feels free to break rules, but something about the absolute yet amorphous nature of the Waldorf philosophy just threw my psyche for one heck of a loop. All that said, we bake our bread and paint, and do handwork, and even the occasional ML page (never a full book, we need to change too frequently...). Also we are very hands on and we love RS math, and have done lovely math blocks to introduce new concepts. (Sara's blog is awesome, and she archives by subject). I suppose I'm just urging you to be gentle with yourself. You will take on HSing and grow and change with your children. You will learn what they like and ditch what they don't. Don't ever feel guilty if you make a choice to use a "Mom friendly" program. Often we're better teachers when we do. I hope my tone is not too gloom and doom. We have been buoyed up by Waldorf at some very difficult times, and it has brought so much to us - I just need to be careful to use it and not let it be my only guide. Good Luck!

Don't skip Mary Renault! The relationships portrayed are not at all what we might consider "stereo-typical" GLB. Renault has such a complete feel for ancient Greece that the relationships are in no way reminiscent of our modern era - even the typical hetero stuff. They're just "Greek."

We've used them mostly in the car, although I often pull them out so that we can catch up on a few chapters. My 5yo dd LOVES them and would listen to them constantly. Lately, my 11yo ds has been claiming enough is enough already (we've been doing ancients all year and he's ready for the Middle Ages). They're good - maybe not as good as listening to a good novel, but then again, when I do that, I'm liable to get lost :D.

This is the first year that I feel that we can attempt to follow much of what is recommended in the WTM. I'm a little nervous... Math: RightStart Geometry interspersed with VideoText Algebra A (when we can afford it!) Writing: Writing Strands 3 - 4 and outlining practice on history and science topics. Grammar: Easy Grammar 4 Vocab: Vocabulary Cartoons (or maybe not if it's too much...) History/Geography/Reading: SOTW II with additional sources and historical fiction (obviously a work in progress) Logic: Liftoff/Orbit with Logic Latin: Getting Started with Latin Science: Earth Science using Discover Nature in the Rocks as our spine. Human Anatomy using Blood and Guts and The Body Book as our spines (no pun :D). And some basic Middle Ages physics thrown in with The Art of the Catapult.

Terri, If you get around to using it soon, would PM me, or post about it? The HS co-op will have it on sale for a bit (through mid-April, I think), and if it gets good reviews, I'd like to buy it. Thanks!

Really, no one has used this? :lurk5:

Has anyone used this? What do you think? Just got an email from the HS buyer's co-op, and I do find it interesting, but I want to know more before I even consider spending more money. Here's the link: https://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/index.php?option=com_epp_offer&Itemid=525 Thanks for sharing your experiences!

RightStart Math - we've loved it for years SOTW audiobooks for learning in the car Having kids over to share chemistry experiments - FUN! Tons of historical fiction read alouds Writing Strands - ds thinks the author's tone is very funny Mark Kistler's online art lessons - dd5 would spend hours with this, and she's so proud of herself