If I had to pick just one book of Aristotle's, I think that I would pick “Nicomachean Ethics.” Second to that, I'd read “Rhetoric and Poetics.” I love your ambition and enthusiasm. I also like following a chronological order. However, if you want to get a taste of a broader range of Great Books, there is a very nice series of books that is written just for someone like you who is reading themselves through these works. The series is called “The Great Ideas Program.” Each volume in the series is topical and includes suggested readings from about ten different Great Books. Along with the reading suggestions there are short background notes and just a few key questions (and discussion of them). You need to actually go to the Great Books themselves to do the readings, but this series is a great aid to self study. See http://www.thegreatideas.org/gip.html for a list of the titles in this series and the selections read in each volume. Most libraries keep “The Great Ideas Program” on their shelves. Good luck! Are you considering attending any of the “Great Books” colleges? You might to take a look at Gutenberg College in Eugene, OR ( http://gutenberg.edu/ ). They have a Great Books reading list posted here: http://gutenberg.edu/academic_program/great_books_reading.php Tina in Ouray, CO

Philip Carey is one of my favorite TC profs. I like "Philosopher and Saint."

You might try "Practical Beginning Theory" by Benward, Jackson, and Jackson. We were in your shoes a couple years ago, and this is what my daughter ended up working through. Tina in Ouray, CO

Not-to-be-missed. Norms and Nobility. Read it slowly once a year.

I can help you. Later this afternoon I'll email you the outline I followed when I taught from this book. At least you'll be able to see how someone else did it and move on from there. Tina in Ouray, CO

Clare and anyone else, I have a friend who has several copies of both "The United States in Literature" (SO American Lit) and "England in Literature" (SO English Lit). If you write to me privately, I'll connect you up with her. I picked up the former for $10 (including shipping/handling). When you write, Clare, tell me your daughter's name, and I'll be able to connect one more student name with a mom "face." Tina in Ouray, CO

Ooooo, perhaps we can help spur one another on this year! My son is Bryce. He'll be taking English Lit this year. (If you are in need of a very inexpensive copy of the text for this class, I might have a lead for you.) Tina in Ouray, CO

Merry, Both my high school students will be taking SO literature classes this year. My 12th grader will be simultaneously going through "Classical Rhetoric for Modern Students" (Corbett), "Writing Workshop" (Roper), and "Style" (Williams). That's a heavy load; I posted a week or two ago about using Corbett this way. My 15yos is in need of some serious one-on-one coaching in writing. I'm going to be using Lost Tools of Writing with him and coordinating assignments with some of the things he is studying in history and literature. Last year, when this same son took SO Western Lit to Dante, I used Lively Art of Writing (Payne) with him. If I'd followed through on this better, we wouldn't be in the pickle we're in now. It's a very inexpensive alternative to teaching writing. The real trick is to consistently keep your student writing about the topics/ideas they are studying. (Did I mention how I failed to do this?) Which literature classes will your student(s) be in? Tina in Ouray, CO

I always encourage or require my students to ask questions about things they are studying in other courses; e.g., science, literature, or history.

I can answer this. I have a Latin I student who used the 6th edition. Whenever I study Latin to help him, I use my old 5th edition. The differences (aside from the addition of some maps and stuff) that I've seen are that in the translation work the 6th edition often has the same sentence as the 5th edition but with a few words added here and there. There are also occasional differences in the vocabulary listing with the 6th edition giving fuller or more accurate descriptions/explanations. None of these are a big deal, but a student in a classroom setting is going to run into problems offering his/her translation and not understanding why or when it is going to be slightly different than the rest of the class's. Since this text isn't outrageously expensive, I would encourage you to find a 6th edition. Tina in Ouray, CO

This is a REALLY good question, and I'm going to take a stab at addressing it. I don't think that people really are teaching what you are talking about --- at least not yet. (Please know this is a generalization, and there may well be some of you who are teaching this. My hats off to those who are!) We should be. I think we should be either teaching this explicitly in the manner you are looking for or implicitly through the other things that we teach about rhetoric which then manifest themselves in various rhetorical effects. I think that a study of classical rhetoric implicitly yields what you are looking for through several different avenues. One avenue is through teaching what are called the “three modes of appeal.†We appeal to others in three ways: to their reason (logos), or to their emotions (pathos), or through our own personality or character (ethos). Each of these categories is studied in classical rhetoric. How we use them depends on the nature of the point we're arguing, the particular circumstance, and/or (most importantly) by our particular audience. The effect of the words and constructions we choose, then, will be mediated through one or more of these appeals. That leads to a second avenue. Classical rhetoric, if you read Aristotle's Rhetoric, is largely a study of human nature. To understand how different grammatical and syntactical constructions effect human beings, you must first know a lot about the nature of man. Classical rhetoric also traditionally distinguishes between three forms of speech: political (deliberative), legal (judicial), and ceremonial (epideitic). Each of these forms is contingent on the nature of man, as well, and is directed towards particular aspects of his nature. So the different characteristics of different forms of speech provide a third avenue for controlling the rhetorical effects of our speech. Lastly, there is a more direct way that classical rhetoric teaches what you are looking for --- through its doctrine of figures (of speech). Think of a figure of speech as a particular form that a thought can take. The shape or form that we use to clothe our thoughts is integrally related to its content and directly affects a reader or audience. In classical and medieval rhetoric there were elaborate classifications of figures which related figures to topics of invention, modes of appeal, etc. It was largely through this approach to the figures (many of them grammatical constructions) that one learned about rhetorical effects. I am not familiar with the book you referenced by Kolln. I have, however, used “Writing and Thinking†(Norman Foerster and J. M. Steadman) for similar purposes. You might want to look at it. Until this morning, I was straddling the fence about buying the TC course Cedarmom mentioned. I went ahead and jumped down and listened to the first lecture. It sounds like something you might be interested in. I can't say much more about it after only one lecture, but at least it is promising. Tina in Ouray, CO

Thank you, all, for your help. So, it looks like there probably was such a thing, but whether there are still any to be found is questionable. That explains why I haven't been able to dig one up. I'll keep digging. And Jane, I'll be your second customer, unless I can worm my way in ahead of Karin. I'm going to need this. I may well be knocking on your for help, too. Thanks! Tina in Ouray, CO

I'm looking for solutions to Algebra and Trig.

Or does the Teacher's Edition have solutions worked out? If there is such a thing, what is it called? And does anyone own one? Thanks, Tina in Ouray, CO

Maybe 1-2 hours study time a day. Hard to remember. Tina in Ouray, CO

There is no getting around it: it is just messy. Like life. Enjoy even the messiness. And remember that the minute you think you have a schedule or system that works for you, things will change. Your little ones will grow, your bigger ones will grow, and you'll have to figure out some new way of coping. You can make it work. I've had six to eight kids in a relatively small house for almost ten years now. There is no quiet corner, no space that anyone can really call their own. We've survived and thrived. I just don't have any easy answers. I think that part of my adult children's strengths come from having to work with circumstances like you described. Be grateful. Tina in Ouray, CO

Yes, it is possible. I have two daughters who are now biology majors in college who studied for the AP biology exam entirely on their own and scored 5's. They are both very diligent and organized students and knew how to pace themselves; with less motivated students, it might be a stretch. Our small local public school was willing to administer the exam, even though they didn't have any other students testing for AP Biology. I had to make the initial contact in the fall and follow through with making sure the test got ordered in January (?). Tina in Ouray, CO

So glad you like it, Holly! Dr. Roper was one the first professors my daughter had for Literary Traditions (a core class) at University of Dallas. He was a gem!

Susan, I'm not sure yet what I plan to do, i.e., how I envision implementing LTOW, with my 15yos. It will probably remain a very "organic" type of approach that waits to see what his particular needs are as we get to each lesson/module. If I were you, I'd probably investigate the beta version of Level 2. Leah, how does that work? Who does one contact to participate in this? Tina in Ouray, CO

"Read C.S. Lewis' book "Preface to Paradise Lost". I think it is OOP, but I found it easily on amazon/half.com etc. These are a series of lectures he gave on PL and they are an excellent introduction. Really, his lecture on primary vs. secondary epic should be required reading for any body teaching in the classical tradition." I second this . . . on all counts. Tina in Ouray, CO

Karen, This is one lecture series that I've enjoyed and benefited from. I can't speak to specific questions because it has been awhile since I heard it. But if there was something particularly irksome about it, I'm sure I'd remember it or have sent it back. I will have a student listening to it this year. Tina in Ouray, CO

Next year I'll have my 17yod completing a course in rhetoric. It will be her senior year, and the course will be a sort of "capstone" course for her. She has done quite a bit of work in logic and classical rhetoric already. But there are three books/texts that I'm wanting her to complete or develop a familiarity with. They are Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student, Edward Corbett Style: Ten Lessons in Clarity and Grace, Joseph Williams Writer's Workshop, Gregory Roper Much of the theoretical work in Corbett will be review for her. But I'd like her to develop a familiarity with this text so that she can use it as a resource in her future college course work. She hasn't really done any analytical work with the readings it contains, so we'll spend some time with them. "Style" is something I'm just having her work through for all those things I've probably missed teaching her even though I've tried. It has exercises nicely laid out . . . cuts down on my writing/planning. "Writer's Workshop" is something that I think she's really going to enjoy. This is the classical practice of imitation at its finest. If you aren't familiar with this book, you might want to check it out. Each chapter has sets of imitation assignments. Since Corbett doesn't really have any exercises or assignments (to speak of) built into it, I will be relying almost solely on the other texts for the bulk of our written assignments. We'll use Corbett for discussion material; it's so theoretical. Right now all I have outlined is what sections we'll read/do when. I'm trying to flesh this out with speeches and other assignments that I'm culling from online resources like Silva Rhetoricae, Composition 1101 (hypertextbooks), etc. I'm happy to share this "syllabus" with anyone who is seriously interested in it; just email me. Right now it isn't finished, and I don't know when it will be, but I'll send you what I have if you are interested in combining any of these resources. One caveat: this is not what I'd do with a 10th grader who'd never had any rhetoric. With my 15yos I'll probably be doing something more akin to The Lost Tools of Writing. I haven't gotten to that stage of planning yet. Tina in Ouray, CO tina @ ouraynet . com (leave out spaces)

Colleen, I used to own the old/original version; it was pre-2000 c. (2e). So, in this case, the "newer" version is ten years old. Tina in Ouray, CO

Are you guys still wrestling with what to do with Corbett? (I'm just back in from vacation and have missed following any discussions here.) If so, I'm considering taking my 17yo (senior) through Corbett next year. I haven't sat down to think through how I want to do this with her, but when I do, I'm happy to share my plan of attack. Tina in Ouray, CO

Susan, I can't really help you with this; there are too many unknowns. Practice, of course, is going to be essential, whether you choose to use LTW or not. But practice without guidance isn't always beneficial, either. I'm leaving on vacation early in the morning. If you want to revisit this in a couple weeks, I'll be around after the 22nd. Tina in Ouray, CO