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  1. It has been summer holidays here, so I have been reading, reading, reading about writing. I have read 3 of the 4 recommendations from SWB for rhetoric: Corbett's Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student (re-read this one, and really studied it) DeAngelo's Composition in the Classical Tradition (yes, the examples are as bad as she says) They Say, I Say: Moves that Matter in Academic Writing I have also read Webster's Student Writing Handbook Lively Art of Writing And I have read the following curriculum (some I actually read like LtoW, CW and WWS; others I really just skimmed to understand what they were doing like Killgallon and WWE): Killgallon Sentence Composing (middle and high school levels) Lost Tools of Writing (LtoW, levels 1 and 2) Classical Composition's Fable Classical Writing's (CW) Homer, Maxim, and Chreia, (and soon Herodotus as it just arrived today) MCT's Island, Town and Voyage levels Writing with Skill (WWS) Writing with Ease (WWE levels 1,2,3) IEW's Structure and Style (luckily got these DVDs from the Homeschool library). Yes, as you can see, I have also spent a lot of money. But I see things so clearly now and I wanted to share my understanding. I hope this helps someone..... I also don't mind answering questions. I have found that Corbett is the best overview of the scope of writing, and would recommend it as a must read for anyone interested in teaching writing to her children up through high school. Corbett sorts classical writing into the 3 canons: Invention, Arrangement, and Elocution, and I have found that organization perfect to sort the different curriculum into. Invention: by far the best curriculum I have read to improve a student's invention is Lost Tools of Writing. It uses the exact same list of Common Topics found in Corbett. However, when I read Corbett, I just could not understand how to get from the list of topics to putting them into an essay. And in WWS and CW I was spoon fed too much, so I could not really see the forest through the trees and implement it on my own. LtoW teaches the student how to ask questions based on the Common Topics and then how to arrange them into an argument. Also, LtoW and CW are the only curriculum that give any attention to the Special Topics associated with judicial, deliberative, and ceremonial discourse. The Lively Art of Writing has 2 excellent chapters on how to create a thesis statement. WWS (as planned for grades 5-8) studies half of the Common Topics listed in Corbett, I assume she will cover the rest in her high school curriculum WWStyle. Arrangement: Different curriculum attacked this in different ways. IEW does the best job in teaching kids the traditional paragraph structure, story structure, 5 paragraph essay. But also does this is a very formulaic manner. I have not seen IEW's more advanced materials. LtoW is also formulaic, but at the essay level. They Say/ I Say is unique in its discussion of arrangement. It focuses on the persuasive essay at the highest level and how to incorporate your ideas into the ongoing Great Discussion of books, essays, and ideas. This is the kind of arrangement I needed to write my dissertation. WWS's discussion of arrangement is not based on an standard outline, but rather on imitation of great writers – imitating how they describe and narrate historical and scientific topics (for level 1, haven't obviously seen the other levels) Elocution: Killgallon and Classical Writing tie IMHO for the best instruction on style of the sentences. They both have you play with sentences, change them around, evaluate how the new sentence augments certain aspects of an idea. LtoW teaches some extremely advanced stylistic features that are covered in Corbett. However, it does not spend enough time on each of these features for the student to actually be able to use them effectively. IEW teaches more formulaic style including a certain number of features for each paragraph, but it does not actually teach you HOW to change a sentence around. WWS so far has a fairly limited approach to style. Critical Reading: Both WWS and CW require students to analyze classic writers to help them understand what makes writing effective. CW does this somewhat better than WWS. MCT has you read classic essays but does not spend much time guiding the student through them. Classical Curriculum using the Progymnasmata. Corbett does not discuss this at all and has a somewhat condescending attitude towards it. The progym is a series of exercises that teaches you how to create different paragraphs and discuss different set topics, It uses Corbett's rhetorical ideas in a restricted and controlled manner. DeAngelo explains the purpose of all of the exercises very well, but his writing examples are as bad as SWB said. I actually could not finish the book, and the examples tarnished my feeling towards the progym. Classical Composition is a progym course which you would finish by 8th grade and then move to rhetorical writing. CW is more than just progym. It stretches the progym out to cover up to 12th grade (although the additional books are not out yet). By stretching out the progym exercies, it mutates some of them to make them truly rhetoric, meaning persuasive essays. The initial idea of the progym is that it happened before rhetoric – a student learned how to write and think using the exercises and then used this understanding to construct persuasive arguments. CW merges the two at the higher levels. Classical Curriculum not using the progym: LtoW follows Corbett's text but does not use the progym exercises. It is an early Rhetoric curriculum that teaches persuasive writing. WWS also follows Corbett's text but does not use the progym exercises. However, in contrast to LtoW, WWS does not teach students about persuasive writing. Instead, it teaches each of the Common Topics (well, half of the Topics) that will be used later to construct a complete argument in a rhetorical composition. Classical vs Modern writing: I have seen some discussion of this, and was confused for a while. But all this reading has cleared it up. In Ancient times there was a lot of time spent on ceremonial and judicial speech, to praise the fallen and to defend oneself (you acted as your own lawyer). These types of writing are not really done now, more of an ancient style. Also, many of the progym exercises use essay starters (like maxims etc) that are not commonly found today. WWS definitely uses more modern styles of writing than CW for example. What I will be using: For 5th through 8th, we will use WWS with Killgallon to shore up the lack of style in WWS. I like the modern writing style in WWS. 9th and 10th LtoW, I may even compact levels 1 and 2 into 1 year. This is early rhetoric. 11th -12th : Rhetoric. We will be writing across the curriculum without a curriculum. For an overview of rhetoric, Ds will read Corbett both years; for critical reading, we will apply Corbett to essays; for arrangement, we will use They Say/ I Say; and for style we will continue with Killgallon. I like CW, I really do, but I am concerned about the focus on non-modern writing styles. I think I will be creating my own CW by using the above books. I disagree with SWB about how difficult Corbett was to read. If you skip the part on logic, the rest of the text is straight forward and relatively easy to read. I found his examples and very lengthy discussion of them to be excellent, just excellent. And after studying all the topics, I think that I could now guide my son to analyze other's essay writing (like MLK or Rachel Carson) using my knowledge of the topics. Very very useful text, and I will definitely have my son read it twice in both 11th and 12th grades. Well, that is about it!! Hope you enjoyed it!:001_smile: Ruth in NZ
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  4. CLRC online is offering a class for Classical Rhetoric for high school students. I know Wes (my oldest has taken classes with him before) and he is phenomenal...he is teaching a live once a week online course for students this year through CLRC where we have taken classes before. Anne is wonderful....anyway they have openings and I thought I'd let you all know...small class and a great opportunity for your youth! My middle son is taking it this year....Here is the link and info below: Rhetoric I | Rhetoric I | Meets on Tuesday's from 1:30-3:00 starting in September. Let me know if you have any questions! Amy
  5. Hey everyone! I need help. I've been perusing these forums since '13 & this is my first post. I've been homeschooling for 6 years, but have just recently read TWTM. Omg. I wish I had done that 6 yrs ago, it would've changed everything. I have been eclectic, using several of the curriculum mentioned across the forum & wanted terribly to tackle subjects like Latin & logic, not really realizing I was running parallel in my curriculum choices. Now that I've decided to jump all in, I'm not quite sure how to transition my upcoming 9th & 10th graders into TWTM method for history & lit when it's so different than what they know. I'm worried about transitioning into rhetoric (in general) without the foundation of grammar & logic, especially. This year we did Notgrass History, combining the history, lit & Bible. We love the primary documents, but there's no study of lit analysis. My gifted/ADHD 10th grader enjoys the reading & answering the questions, hates the projects. This doesn't bother me too much b/c he enjoys the writing, too. My 9th grader has worked through dysgraphia (still working), possibly dyslexia (at least the symptoms, but they're gone now) & hoooorid spelling. He is so bright, probably gifted as well. He did the lower level Notgrass this year, but pigs will fly before he will do all that writing in the upper level Notgrass. I've looked at SWB history books online, they don't seem like an option at all (tho they do love to read), but I looove the idea of the chronological history study. I have an upcoming 1st & 5th grader I intend to take through SOTW 1 & would love to have my 9th grader start with Ancients as well. My 10th grader could do Medieval. I've read about every history thread I could find, but really don't know where to start. Any advice on transitioning into classical/ WTM in general during rhetoric is coveted as well. TIA!!
  6. I have been immersing myself in all the posted topics regarding Language Arts for high school on the High School boards and have reviewed the WTM (not 4th edition because I don't own it) as well as my copy of Teaching the Trivium for guidelines about what to do as I plan my oldest DS's 4 yrs of high school. And yes, I've read Ruth's epic post . . . . My head is swimming. Please offer help if you can wade through my post! I'm most thankful for anyone to jump in here and give advice! I hate to be a "needy" mom on here, but I need some shoulders to lean on from those of you who have gone before me and have accumulated invaluable experience and perspective. Here's some background that might help you as you advise. As an elementary and middle school student, he has completed the following: IEW SWI-A plus some of the Theme-based books WWE1-4 WWS 1-2 Lively Art of Writing (LAW) IEW unit VIII of TWSS MCT: Island, Town, CE,1 ML1, WWW, 4practice, R&S Grade 8 Killgallon SCES & SCMS VCR A World of Poetry (CAP) Fallacy Detective Art of Argument Discovery of Deduction He is currently enrolled in a Humanities local tutorial class (going into his 3rd year) which teaches cohesively (as one would expect) wonderful literature, challenging presentations/ projects and writing assignments based on the Progym, and deep study of history. He is a strong student in this class and writes well, thinks well, and loves all of it. I just don't know that it is enough actual writing to call it an entire credit hour. Thus . . . my search for something to just fill out and ensure everything is in place. How to navigate the high school years' English/Lit/Speech credits without overloading him . . . . (we'll have 2 others after him . . . just fyi) On my bookshelf (and/or written in my accumulated notes) for the high school years are the following resources: Elements of Style On Writing Well On Speaking Well A Rulebook for Arguments + Wkbk Intermediate Logic (Nance) Hands on Essays New Oxford Guide to Writing The Elements of Rhetoric VCR level D & E Figures of Speech (Quinn) How to Read Lit Like a Prof They Say, I Say How to Read a Book Aristotle Rhetoric On my radar but I have no idea whether they are needed or just duplicates / redundancies of what I own are the following: LTOW (it seems he would be better suited to level 2 but you're supposed to start at level 1 :( ) IEW SICC C or Theme Based level C or SWI-C --> i get conflicting opinions about which would be best given our trail up to this point IEW WTTW MCT ML3 & WWW2 MP's CC <-- i think he could jump in at book 6 and continue through 8, even though I know you're supposed to go from ground up Rhetoric Alive 1 Writing Strands 7 plus Writing Exposition Write Foundation level 2 or 3 EIW level 10 What is my problem, then, you ask? Sequencing this and making it not too robust but just enough to fill out the need for High School level writing instruction/English credits in light of what he has done and what he will need to be able to do. We are just on the brink of 9th grade studies (we school on and off all year long). What order could I use for the books sitting on my self? WHat would be missing, or would I need nothing from the radar list? {Oh, and we really cannot do online classes because we're on satellite internet} I talked with the gal from LTOW (circe) and she recommended he go quickly through LTOW1 and then roll into LTOW2 but this seems so expensive. And I cannot tell really whether that is the right kind of writing instruction for him, or whether that is unnecessary. It seems that LTOW is a thinking program, not a writing skills program. I need something that is just bare bones practice in writing but can be flexible to fit in with the sometimes hefty loads of writing he does in his Humanities class. I need something that is nuts and bolts, ongoing, not overwhelming, exposes him to all the different types of essay writing he needs to be able to do. Also, in which order should I do the rhetoric books I currently own? Also, how do I assign credit hours for the Rhetoric studies. I am so confused because WTM talks about Rhetoric being the replacement for Logic . . . but the Rulebook for Arguments and the New Oxford Guide are more like nuts and bolts to writing out his arguments, whereas the Intermediate Logic curriculum is all about mastering the propositions. (Would I do Intermediate Logic prior to Rulebook for Arguments or concurrently?) Do I give an elective credit for Intermediate Logic? What do I call it? I know I call it "Speech" when we do a Rhetoric class for elective credit, right? I am drawn to the official-ness of the Progym model (as it is called out in LTOW, CC, CAP), but came to it late in my schooling with him, so he hasn't had official instruction in that. DD2 and DS3 are getting that with CAP's Wr&Rh. We have generally always been a mesh of WTM and Charlotte Mason . . . . I'm beginning to see the fruit of all of it in DS1. . . .but I want to finish strong during these last four years, bringing to completion what I began with such fervor at the beginning.
  7. Has anyone used Cleanth Brooks and Robert Penn Warren's Modern Rhetoric to teach writing?
  8. Apologies in advance for what may be a long post. Our son has had a rough few years - both with health issues (which are mainly sorted) and a disjointed education of school-homeschool-boarding school-homeschool. We are now in a position to take stock, plan and really take a big picture look at what we want his learning to achieve in the next few years. He is very asynchronous both in his learning - some subjects he is way ahead of his peers in school, some subjects a bit behind - and in things like comphrehension and attitude - at times he 'gets' stuff some adults don't get, at other times he struggles with things like really basic organisation. We have professional help for some of the 'issues' (his specialist describes it as 'he doesn't fit all the strict diagnostic criteria for Aspergers, but there is definitely something going on') so we are now getting in to the proper 'schooling' planning. At the end of the next month we are moving again, this time to Istanbul. The posting is hopefully for three years, so that will take us up until just before Willem turns 13. I am hoping that at that stage we can move on to the 'Rhetoric' stage. So what do we need to achieve in the next three years to get there? I know that there are a lot of materials out there that give me an idea of what he would be expected to be doing in a US/UK/Australian school system, but I am more interested in the hive mind's experience and ideas of where he could be. Ultimately I would like a bit of an end-state to work back from, taking in to account our interests, travel plans, lifestyle, priorities etc. Please give me your ideas on what a student ready to move on to the Rhetoric stage/Highschool looks like. What have they achieved? Where are their skills at? Feel free to be as prescriptive and specific or as vague and 'meta' as you like.
  9. One of our biggest challenges in high school will be writing (and public speaking). I’m struggling with how to pull off 9th grade writing. In my assessment, DS is very inconsistent in his writing. Sometimes, especially with fiction, he’s written some excellent material; other times, I don’t think it’s particularly good. DS isn’t interested in more creative writing classes or assignments, and I don’t see a need to push it. Our goal is to develop a strong non-fiction writer, including in social sciences, natural sciences, and literary analysis. Right now, our plan to start 9th grade will be to use the text by Skwire Writing With a Thesis: A Rhetoric and Reader, 11th edition. I think that the presentation will resonate with DS, although I’m not sure about the assignments. Has anyone used Skwire and have suggestions on implementation? I had planned to finish the second half of IEW SWI-C over summer, which DS started in the summer before 8th grade, but then DS decided to attend a bricks and mortar school. While I think it was an excellent class, I’m really not sure about the level of writing – the school really wanted to foster independence, which has benefits, but not for getting a good sense of where DS’s writing is for going back to homeschooling! We had planned on using Winifred Horner’s Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition cover to cover as the main text for 8th grade, and we’ll consider it as a supplement for additional examples or as an alternative for topics if Skwire doesn’t go well. I also purchased Killgallon Paragraphs for High School: A Sentence-Composing Approach, but I’m not sure we’ll use it at all. FYI, one of our readings in our WTM-type history and literature readings will be Aristotle’s Rhetoric. A little more background on DS’s previous work on writing. Besides the bricks and mortar school last year, which is a bit of a black box, DS has had some outside classes on creative and non-fiction writing. He read Weston A Rulebook for Arguments in 7th grade, which went over well, and Strunk and White The Elements of Style, in 6th grade, which DS thought was very valuable. DS went through about half to 2/3 of WWS1 in 5th or 6th, and really did not like it. He’s more of a whole-to-parts person, and the presentation seemed too parts-to-whole for him (good material though). We tried an earlier version of LToW; the whole-to-parts approach was a better fit, but at least the earlier version didn’t make us want to try again. DS doesn’t really need more grammar instruction, as it’s very solid; the uncommon issue on a writing assignment is almost always a typo left due to not proofreading (more attention to proofreading could use improvement). Other material for 9th grade and later: We’ll also use John Bean’s Engaging Ideas: The Professor's Guide to Integrating Writing, Critical Thinking, and Active Learning in the Classroom to integrate writing into other courses in 9th grade and later. Really nice text. In 10th grade, we’ll probably use They Say, I Say, either with or without the readings (are the readings necessary?), although we may select certain styles as I’ve heard there’s a lot of repetition in the book. If DS continues to lean toward the natural sciences or social sciences, They Say, I Say would seem to fit nicely. An alternate text, which I also have, would be Thomas Kane's The New Oxford Guide to Writing, recommended in WTM pp.468-476. Finally, we might use Corbett Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student in 11th (WTM recommended for 10th in but Ruth in NZ [lewelma] recommended for 11th, and she’s wonderfully thorough and ambitious. Also, They Say, I Say, seems to fit better with DS’s other planned courses in 10th). I’ll also probably look for someone with experience in teaching writing to get some periodic outside feedback and recommendations to the extent funds allow. What am I missing? Are there some good assignments to use when the texts don’t seem to work? Thanks!
  10. If you've used CAP Writing and Rhetoric, can you tell me what you liked about it? -did it help your student write better -did you feel you had to supplement with another program -do you feel it is complete -are you able to apply it to modern writing i.e. 5 paragraph essay We are currently using Classical Writing, we'll be in Chreia next year. I do think it is a thorough Progym program, however, the way it is laid out, I've had a hard time getting the rhythm and flow of it that our year looked "choppy." If there are already threads to this, please let me know!
  11. I came across this nice BYU guide of terms used in rhetoric. I was reading elsewhere (reddit?) a discussion about the vocabulary of rhetoric being an impediment. I know it is for me. I especially like reading through the rhetorical figures on the right side of the page. Silva rhetoricae (The forest of rhetoric)
  12. I'm considering using this with my high school rhetoric class of four home-schooled students. I'd love to hear feedback & comments from those who have used it. I've ordered a copy to review, but it's not here yet. :) TIA,
  13. In my digging today, I found these two interesting antique books on rhetoric. This one has an entire section on proper paragraphs. This one has a nice section on style and invention, along with other topics. Just wanted to share.
  14. Where would you go for writing? We've already completed Art of Argument and Discovery of Deduction, so I'm looking for writhing/rhetoric suggestions. Could you safely move into some of the WTM suggestions? Thanks.
  15. I want my son to take an article or editorial and analyze it for logic and rhetoric. I think it would help us to start out with a template of some kind. I found a few for logic online, but would like to combine the two. If you are willing to share what you have done that would be great. If not, I'll try to make one up. Something like I. Background II. Author's purpose/thesis III. assumptions etc. Thanks! Kendall
  16. Help! I have a bright, talented young teenager who NEEDS to be in a group setting. We've been using Sonlight and she's absorbed a ton of info, but she is stuck in the grammar stage and doesn't want to come up with independent ideas about academic subjects. In fact, she's actually passed on answering discussion questions because she didn't want to say anything negative about a historical figure... Doh! I'm new to the idea of classical education, but it seems to sum up our need for a change-- I'm just not sure how to accomplish this. There's a Classical Conversations CoOp starting 30 minutes away and I'm considering joining. Money and tutor-quality wouldn't be the deciding factors because I'd be her tutor : ) My bigger concerns would be the time investment (I haven't taken Latin in 20+ years) and tendency toward exclusivity. My big questions: * If you have ONE child, or an older-than-the-rest child, how do you encourage that logical and rhetorical growth? * Is there another "packaged" CoOp or Class plan that I could use and just find a few other students to join in? * Have you found that logical, rhetorical growth can be achieved with non-weekly groups? We live in New Hampshire and our friends are 30-60 minutes away, not counting snow and ice... Thanks in advance for you help! Bethany
  17. ...in which she compares Traditional Logic and Introductory Logic? I think this is probably a long shot, but I'm throwing it out there anyway. Sorry for the double post. My computer was misbehaving.
  18. How do you do it? Do you have any resources you find extremely helpful and easy to use? More specifically, SWB suggests Anthony Weston's A Rulebook for Arguments. Does anyone have any thoughts on this book? Easy for student to understand? One more question. What have you used or done with your student to develop the skill of writing a thesis?
  19. I've worked through parts of the the first few chapters of this text with my dd a couple of years ago. Ds is headed into 9th grade in the fall. His entire "program" is all set. Now I'm thinking about messing it up. Jean, did you use this text? Where did you find alternate examples? Do you have a nice list all prepped somewhere on your computer? How did the pacing go? Do you have any paperwork/lists/rubrics/etc to impose the spiraling that my 9th grader is going to need? Of course I can do this. I just don't want to........ WAHHHHHHHHH!!!!! I hate it when I sit and think, and really assess what my kid needs. (Knowing what he needs doesn't always help, because then I have to do it.) Why can't he just need what it sitting in my bin? It's ready to go! Why? I'm starting to implode. I'm starting to really hate this job. ;) Ok. Not. But kinda...... :glare: Off to go fold laundry. Peace, Janice
  20. I'm trying to get a handle on oldest ds's highschool plan before we actually launch high school. He starts 8th grade this fall. This will be my first time homeschooling highschool and I'm a bit nervous and not wanting to mess him up. He will be doing Logic I: Tools for Thinking by Norman Birkett this fall. Assuming all goes well he will follow up with Logic II in 9th grade. Then I guess it's on to Rhetoric. Is Rhetoric a formal course that I can put on a transcript? Would a course in Rhetoric be above and beyond what I have planned for English (Lightning Lit and some IEW)? Memoria Press's Rhetoric course by Martin Cothran looks most feasible for us. I don't see where Memoria Press's logic is a prerequisite. I am also intriguged by IEW's Classical Rhetoric: Writings Based on the Progymnasmata. I dabbled with the Classical Writing curriculum shortly but ended up with IEW for the long haul. I am very intrigued by their lessons in the Progym knowing that I gave that up when I gave up CW. Does Cothran's book go through the progym? Does that go without saying and I'm showing my ignorance? Would it be helpful to go through IEW's Rhetoric as a friendly intro before delving into Cothran? Are they two totally different animals? Any thoughts on how and when to do a Rhetoric course, a gentle sequence of prerequisites, etc. would be so appreciated! I'm open to other suggestions as well. But I need lots and lots of hand holding. Veritas Press's Rhetoric scares me. I love VP but am very leery of many of their suggestions as they seem to be more geared to experienced classroom teachers. Also any thoughts on how to record this on the transcript and whether to do a regular English course alongside would be great! ETA: I found a thread (don't know how to link it) regarding Martin Cothran's Rhetoric. It looks like the general consensus is dry and awful. Now I'm definitely open to suggestions. I'm re-examining Ancient Rhetorics for Contemporary Students (from the VP catalog) Anyone have experience with this? Maybe it's not so awful.
  21. OK. Time to change horses. Time to do something else with composition for my 9th grade dd. I think that I'm going to attempt the WTM high school writing progression. I have the R-level-recs including D'Angelo sitting next to my computer; they have been on my shelf for years; now they have moved into my "working pile." I've been pouring over them for nearly a week. There is no way this would have worked for my oldest in 9th grade; we (I?) had too much catch-up work to do. But my dd? She might actually love this, and I've learned a thing or two about writing in the last couple of years. D' Angelo is clear. But, yes! The examples are bad; I can see that. So, hmmm. I love to teach with great examples; it just makes everything much easier - picture, thousands words and all that. Any thoughts on how to pair this text with better examples? I started digging through my Norton Reader. I think I could probably find some terrific examples there. In fact, I have a couple of college-level resources filled with essays that are chaptered according to theme, but they have a cross-referenced list that matches up with Kane's categories: Narration, Description, etc. I guess my problem is that I don't quite "get" this yet. (This has happened in hsing too many times for me to count. I'm almost there. I'm certain of it. I just need to hang on in this place of extreme discomfort until things start to come into sharper focus. And then I'll start to ask myself how I could have ever functioned without this piece of know-how. I HATE this process, but love the ta-da. Self-education is just so, so, so much work. I. Just. Can't. Believe. How much work it is. I am straining so hard this week. And not just with writing. Rains it pours and all that! Face set like flint. Gosh sometimes I just can't believe that anyone possesses the stomach for this hsing thing. Digressing. Doing a ton of that lately too! :001_smile:) I can see the general arch of D'Angelo; the Table of Contents is clear. But I haven't done this yet, so I can't look at a (real) essay and immediately see the parts in use, so I can't yet begin to understand the logic of the choices or their beauty/ugliness. (And yes! The experts are right. I have not encountered ONE five paragraph essay anywhere in my "real" books. My dd needs to be in this world; it's where she belongs. I wish that someone else could take her there and show her around. But that person doesn't exist for me. So I can only assume that I am that person. That frustration has clouded my vision for a couple of months now; I need to be over it. So I'm working like a dog. And yes, I'm learning. So I suppose this whole teaching high-school writing thing could work out for good in the end.:001_smile:) I guess what I'm saying is that I need to become the expert in record-time. I have a TON of loose bits under my belt - enough to make me believe that I'm close. I think I'm going to get this; I think that this is going to finally make sense; I can feel it! Should I just read D'Angelo, Kane, and Corbett straight through? Or should I just read Kane and Corbett, start my dd with the Rulebook for Arguments, and hope that I've picked up the clue-phone by the time we get to page one of Comp in the Classical Tradition? Will the connections between the two (Kane's divisions vs. Corbett's - modern terms vs. classical terms) make sense once I begin reading? Note: I tried to read these books a few years ago. I liked them, and I guess I was learning. But I didn't have enough background to understand them enough to think that I could use them to teach - which means that I didn't really understand them; I wasn't really reading. I think that has changed. I think that I could read them now. I guess what I'm asking: What is the goal of each text? How do they build on each other? Why is Corbett harder than D'Angelo? More stuff? Tougher examples? Can someone explain the progression to me in order to save me some time? I like the way Kane focuses on sentences and diction (parts IV and V). That's something that I always want to focus on. :001_smile: And it seems to me that Corbett's style section (particularly the schemes and tropes) is something to integrate piece by piece into every year - like The Elements of Style - drop by drop the bucket fills. So does anyone have any advice on how I should tackle this one. I know better than to just "research" curriculum. The baby needs to start with Weston's text this morning. This morning we'll also choose a persuasive 300 word paper that she can write in history. Monday she began Great Expectations; I'm sure that there is a 300 word topic bubbling inside of her for that one as well; I'll help her dig it out tomorrow. (She'll be so relieved that neither paper has to be five paragraphs. :001_smile:) Any advice that will save me time as I try to figure out what comes after that? Cause I think that I'm going to try this. But it sure would make it easier if one of you has already mowed a path. Care to point me in the right direction? :001_smile: Thanks! Janice Enjoy your little people Enjoy your journey
  22. As I've been reading TWTM I've been talking about it with DS, who's 16, and he's really taken with the idea of studying rhetoric. So, I'm hear asking for suggestions! Suggestions which don't involve me also having to study everything (at this stage) are particularly welcome, since I'm trying to study for a maths degree & already don't have enough hours in the day.:willy_nilly:Come November I'll have more free time, but I'd like to start now whilst he's so enthusiastic. Thanks in advance!
  23. This has probably been asked before (for all I know I may have even asked it myself LOL), but is it even possible to do TWTM with a student who is in high school (starting 9th grade) who isn't ready for Rhetoric level work? If so, how? I love this book, but I also know my daughter isn't ready to do Rhetoric level work, but still want her to be able to start high school anyway.
  24. Wanna hear what I found? :) Well there was lots of good stuff, some new stuff, and of course SWB was AWESOME. She did 8 talks in 3 days plus a private luncheon with us, apparently a feat not to be recreated. But if you can imagine, next year both JW *and* SWB are coming to Cincy. You want to come, so start planning now! I've misplaced my booklet, so I don't have the dates handy, sorry. And now for some new stuff! Holy Cow science has hilarious topic kits for science. The glowing bones kit looked fun, if a little young. http://burnsfamilystudios.com/movies/pendragon/ This movie looks exciting. I ate dinner with the family that produced it, or rather I ate while the mother took care of the baby for me, haha... They are lovely people, and while I haven't watched the dvd yet, it looks well done. They're a VERY nice family. :) http://www.kitbook.com You've probably seen these in your RR searches. They have topical kits that my dd thought looked good. Cornerstone Curriculum/Quine--World Views of the Western World (WVWW) and Starting Points--I had wanted to look this over to compare it to Omnibus. It's extremely similar and yet totally different, if that makes sense. WVWW seems focused on the heart. SP can be done as early as 7th grade and WVWW is the follow-up, more high school level, course. Again, very nice people, felt a commonality with them. Omnibus--I got to see it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow, what a beautiful book. Wasn't nearly so blown away as I thought I would be based on what people had said. It now makes sense to me how you can use part and not all (say all secondary readings, none of the primary, etc.). It's nowhere near WVWW as for as philosophical probing, but they're just totally different. Unfortunately, I don't see how you can do *both*. :( Circe/Lost Tools of Writing--Ok, this is the very FIRST thing I went to see at the vendor hall! Kern was not there, so the kind man repping for them (whose wife does all the teaching, haha), was slogging through, trying to explain. It's one of those things that makes you blink a lot till you get how it's set up, so I can totally understand how people can buy it and have it just sit on their shelves. It seems to walk you through steps of building a persuasive essay (the level 1 course) and have pre-grammar, grammar, dialetic, and rhetoric level tasks (think TOG almost) for each step. So in that sense it crosses over the ages. On the other hand, why would you BOTHER to teach a 3rd grader how to write a persuasive essay, kwim? Totally contradictory to the WTM approach. That brings me around to SWB's sessions. I had heard part of the Writing Without Fear cd (before I loaned it out and didn't get it back), read my WTM as well as I could, etc., but her new talks really helped pull things together for me. Hurray for Susan!! She broke it all down bit by bit into 3 hours, took questions, it was just fantastic. I finally got that sense of the FLOW and where it's going, why we're doing what we're doing. She discussed options for high school level rhetoric (persuasive writing): IEW (their Rhetoric book, etc.), CW, Cochrane, and of course the method outlined in WTM. I think you could add LtoW as those levels develop. I pretty much took from it that all roads will get you to Rome on this and that it's pretty much a matter of which is going to be most user-friendly to you. They aren't all necessarily EQUAL, but they all have their good points and will get you there. But her ultimate point was that you're doing, in those courses, pre-digested Aristotle, where you could just use the method of study of Aristotle, etc. outlined in WTM and just get that info straight from the horse's mouth. Given how cumbersome some of those methods are (CW, etc., not to tip a sacred cow), it surprises me we don't have more discussion of that, kwim? I think we ought to be at least OPEN to the thought that we could get there just fine without CW, etc. And listening to her talks after looking at LToW, I'm really not SURE LToW is necessary either. Like I said, I was really impressed with the simplicity and potential of the WTM approach. Simple is good! More goodies? Well, a vendor had CWP in stock, hehe... http://www.lhsitetours.homestead.com These people do Little House trips. http://www.scienceshepherd.com New science written by a doctor. They have two books out currently. Saw the Total Language Plus guides and thought they were interesting, if a bit cumbersome. A man was there repping for Amaco clay. They make quite a few products we hadn't tried before. He gave dd a tub of the air-hardening porcelain clay to try, and it was very cool, dries very quickly and takes lots of detail. The luncheon with SWB and the board was wonderful, tons of fun. Thanks to Sandy for organizing it! :) Got to gab with Tara the Liberator, Strider, Sandy, LadyDusk, TeaTotaler (who really drinks tea!), ELaurie, and more. What fun!
  25. What would be a good rhetoric course that could be done independently? How/where do you list rhetoric on a transcript? Thanks!
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