It has been summer holidays here, so I have been reading, reading, reading about writing. I have read 3 of the 4 recommendations from SWB for rhetoric: Corbett's Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student (re-read this one, and really studied it) DeAngelo's Composition in the Classical Tradition (yes, the examples are as bad as she says) They Say, I Say: Moves that Matter in Academic Writing I have also read Webster's Student Writing Handbook Lively Art of Writing And I have read the following curriculum (some I actually read like LtoW, CW and WWS; others I really just skimmed to understand what they were doing like Killgallon and WWE): Killgallon Sentence Composing (middle and high school levels) Lost Tools of Writing (LtoW, levels 1 and 2) Classical Composition's Fable Classical Writing's (CW) Homer, Maxim, and Chreia, (and soon Herodotus as it just arrived today) MCT's Island, Town and Voyage levels Writing with Skill (WWS) Writing with Ease (WWE levels 1,2,3) IEW's Structure and Style (luckily got these DVDs from the Homeschool library). Yes, as you can see, I have also spent a lot of money. But I see things so clearly now and I wanted to share my understanding. I hope this helps someone..... I also don't mind answering questions. I have found that Corbett is the best overview of the scope of writing, and would recommend it as a must read for anyone interested in teaching writing to her children up through high school. Corbett sorts classical writing into the 3 canons: Invention, Arrangement, and Elocution, and I have found that organization perfect to sort the different curriculum into. Invention: by far the best curriculum I have read to improve a student's invention is Lost Tools of Writing. It uses the exact same list of Common Topics found in Corbett. However, when I read Corbett, I just could not understand how to get from the list of topics to putting them into an essay. And in WWS and CW I was spoon fed too much, so I could not really see the forest through the trees and implement it on my own. LtoW teaches the student how to ask questions based on the Common Topics and then how to arrange them into an argument. Also, LtoW and CW are the only curriculum that give any attention to the Special Topics associated with judicial, deliberative, and ceremonial discourse. The Lively Art of Writing has 2 excellent chapters on how to create a thesis statement. WWS (as planned for grades 5-8) studies half of the Common Topics listed in Corbett, I assume she will cover the rest in her high school curriculum WWStyle. Arrangement: Different curriculum attacked this in different ways. IEW does the best job in teaching kids the traditional paragraph structure, story structure, 5 paragraph essay. But also does this is a very formulaic manner. I have not seen IEW's more advanced materials. LtoW is also formulaic, but at the essay level. They Say/ I Say is unique in its discussion of arrangement. It focuses on the persuasive essay at the highest level and how to incorporate your ideas into the ongoing Great Discussion of books, essays, and ideas. This is the kind of arrangement I needed to write my dissertation. WWS's discussion of arrangement is not based on an standard outline, but rather on imitation of great writers – imitating how they describe and narrate historical and scientific topics (for level 1, haven't obviously seen the other levels) Elocution: Killgallon and Classical Writing tie IMHO for the best instruction on style of the sentences. They both have you play with sentences, change them around, evaluate how the new sentence augments certain aspects of an idea. LtoW teaches some extremely advanced stylistic features that are covered in Corbett. However, it does not spend enough time on each of these features for the student to actually be able to use them effectively. IEW teaches more formulaic style including a certain number of features for each paragraph, but it does not actually teach you HOW to change a sentence around. WWS so far has a fairly limited approach to style. Critical Reading: Both WWS and CW require students to analyze classic writers to help them understand what makes writing effective. CW does this somewhat better than WWS. MCT has you read classic essays but does not spend much time guiding the student through them. Classical Curriculum using the Progymnasmata. Corbett does not discuss this at all and has a somewhat condescending attitude towards it. The progym is a series of exercises that teaches you how to create different paragraphs and discuss different set topics, It uses Corbett's rhetorical ideas in a restricted and controlled manner. DeAngelo explains the purpose of all of the exercises very well, but his writing examples are as bad as SWB said. I actually could not finish the book, and the examples tarnished my feeling towards the progym. Classical Composition is a progym course which you would finish by 8th grade and then move to rhetorical writing. CW is more than just progym. It stretches the progym out to cover up to 12th grade (although the additional books are not out yet). By stretching out the progym exercies, it mutates some of them to make them truly rhetoric, meaning persuasive essays. The initial idea of the progym is that it happened before rhetoric – a student learned how to write and think using the exercises and then used this understanding to construct persuasive arguments. CW merges the two at the higher levels. Classical Curriculum not using the progym: LtoW follows Corbett's text but does not use the progym exercises. It is an early Rhetoric curriculum that teaches persuasive writing. WWS also follows Corbett's text but does not use the progym exercises. However, in contrast to LtoW, WWS does not teach students about persuasive writing. Instead, it teaches each of the Common Topics (well, half of the Topics) that will be used later to construct a complete argument in a rhetorical composition. Classical vs Modern writing: I have seen some discussion of this, and was confused for a while. But all this reading has cleared it up. In Ancient times there was a lot of time spent on ceremonial and judicial speech, to praise the fallen and to defend oneself (you acted as your own lawyer). These types of writing are not really done now, more of an ancient style. Also, many of the progym exercises use essay starters (like maxims etc) that are not commonly found today. WWS definitely uses more modern styles of writing than CW for example. What I will be using: For 5th through 8th, we will use WWS with Killgallon to shore up the lack of style in WWS. I like the modern writing style in WWS. 9th and 10th LtoW, I may even compact levels 1 and 2 into 1 year. This is early rhetoric. 11th -12th : Rhetoric. We will be writing across the curriculum without a curriculum. For an overview of rhetoric, Ds will read Corbett both years; for critical reading, we will apply Corbett to essays; for arrangement, we will use They Say/ I Say; and for style we will continue with Killgallon. I like CW, I really do, but I am concerned about the focus on non-modern writing styles. I think I will be creating my own CW by using the above books. I disagree with SWB about how difficult Corbett was to read. If you skip the part on logic, the rest of the text is straight forward and relatively easy to read. I found his examples and very lengthy discussion of them to be excellent, just excellent. And after studying all the topics, I think that I could now guide my son to analyze other's essay writing (like MLK or Rachel Carson) using my knowledge of the topics. Very very useful text, and I will definitely have my son read it twice in both 11th and 12th grades. Well, that is about it!! Hope you enjoyed it!:001_smile: Ruth in NZ

Hey everyone! I need help. I've been perusing these forums since '13 & this is my first post. I've been homeschooling for 6 years, but have just recently read TWTM. Omg. I wish I had done that 6 yrs ago, it would've changed everything. I have been eclectic, using several of the curriculum mentioned across the forum & wanted terribly to tackle subjects like Latin & logic, not really realizing I was running parallel in my curriculum choices. Now that I've decided to jump all in, I'm not quite sure how to transition my upcoming 9th & 10th graders into TWTM method for history & lit when it's so different than what they know. I'm worried about transitioning into rhetoric (in general) without the foundation of grammar & logic, especially. This year we did Notgrass History, combining the history, lit & Bible. We love the primary documents, but there's no study of lit analysis. My gifted/ADHD 10th grader enjoys the reading & answering the questions, hates the projects. This doesn't bother me too much b/c he enjoys the writing, too. My 9th grader has worked through dysgraphia (still working), possibly dyslexia (at least the symptoms, but they're gone now) & hoooorid spelling. He is so bright, probably gifted as well. He did the lower level Notgrass this year, but pigs will fly before he will do all that writing in the upper level Notgrass. I've looked at SWB history books online, they don't seem like an option at all (tho they do love to read), but I looove the idea of the chronological history study. I have an upcoming 1st & 5th grader I intend to take through SOTW 1 & would love to have my 9th grader start with Ancients as well. My 10th grader could do Medieval. I've read about every history thread I could find, but really don't know where to start. Any advice on transitioning into classical/ WTM in general during rhetoric is coveted as well. TIA!!

I have been immersing myself in all the posted topics regarding Language Arts for high school on the High School boards and have reviewed the WTM (not 4th edition because I don't own it) as well as my copy of Teaching the Trivium for guidelines about what to do as I plan my oldest DS's 4 yrs of high school. And yes, I've read Ruth's epic post . . . . My head is swimming. Please offer help if you can wade through my post! I'm most thankful for anyone to jump in here and give advice! I hate to be a "needy" mom on here, but I need some shoulders to lean on from those of you who have gone before me and have accumulated invaluable experience and perspective. Here's some background that might help you as you advise. As an elementary and middle school student, he has completed the following: IEW SWI-A plus some of the Theme-based books WWE1-4 WWS 1-2 Lively Art of Writing (LAW) IEW unit VIII of TWSS MCT: Island, Town, CE,1 ML1, WWW, 4practice, R&S Grade 8 Killgallon SCES & SCMS VCR A World of Poetry (CAP) Fallacy Detective Art of Argument Discovery of Deduction He is currently enrolled in a Humanities local tutorial class (going into his 3rd year) which teaches cohesively (as one would expect) wonderful literature, challenging presentations/ projects and writing assignments based on the Progym, and deep study of history. He is a strong student in this class and writes well, thinks well, and loves all of it. I just don't know that it is enough actual writing to call it an entire credit hour. Thus . . . my search for something to just fill out and ensure everything is in place. How to navigate the high school years' English/Lit/Speech credits without overloading him . . . . (we'll have 2 others after him . . . just fyi) On my bookshelf (and/or written in my accumulated notes) for the high school years are the following resources: Elements of Style On Writing Well On Speaking Well A Rulebook for Arguments + Wkbk Intermediate Logic (Nance) Hands on Essays New Oxford Guide to Writing The Elements of Rhetoric VCR level D & E Figures of Speech (Quinn) How to Read Lit Like a Prof They Say, I Say How to Read a Book Aristotle Rhetoric On my radar but I have no idea whether they are needed or just duplicates / redundancies of what I own are the following: LTOW (it seems he would be better suited to level 2 but you're supposed to start at level 1 :( ) IEW SICC C or Theme Based level C or SWI-C --> i get conflicting opinions about which would be best given our trail up to this point IEW WTTW MCT ML3 & WWW2 MP's CC <-- i think he could jump in at book 6 and continue through 8, even though I know you're supposed to go from ground up Rhetoric Alive 1 Writing Strands 7 plus Writing Exposition Write Foundation level 2 or 3 EIW level 10 What is my problem, then, you ask? Sequencing this and making it not too robust but just enough to fill out the need for High School level writing instruction/English credits in light of what he has done and what he will need to be able to do. We are just on the brink of 9th grade studies (we school on and off all year long). What order could I use for the books sitting on my self? WHat would be missing, or would I need nothing from the radar list? {Oh, and we really cannot do online classes because we're on satellite internet} I talked with the gal from LTOW (circe) and she recommended he go quickly through LTOW1 and then roll into LTOW2 but this seems so expensive. And I cannot tell really whether that is the right kind of writing instruction for him, or whether that is unnecessary. It seems that LTOW is a thinking program, not a writing skills program. I need something that is just bare bones practice in writing but can be flexible to fit in with the sometimes hefty loads of writing he does in his Humanities class. I need something that is nuts and bolts, ongoing, not overwhelming, exposes him to all the different types of essay writing he needs to be able to do. Also, in which order should I do the rhetoric books I currently own? Also, how do I assign credit hours for the Rhetoric studies. I am so confused because WTM talks about Rhetoric being the replacement for Logic . . . but the Rulebook for Arguments and the New Oxford Guide are more like nuts and bolts to writing out his arguments, whereas the Intermediate Logic curriculum is all about mastering the propositions. (Would I do Intermediate Logic prior to Rulebook for Arguments or concurrently?) Do I give an elective credit for Intermediate Logic? What do I call it? I know I call it "Speech" when we do a Rhetoric class for elective credit, right? I am drawn to the official-ness of the Progym model (as it is called out in LTOW, CC, CAP), but came to it late in my schooling with him, so he hasn't had official instruction in that. DD2 and DS3 are getting that with CAP's Wr&Rh. We have generally always been a mesh of WTM and Charlotte Mason . . . . I'm beginning to see the fruit of all of it in DS1. . . .but I want to finish strong during these last four years, bringing to completion what I began with such fervor at the beginning.

Has anyone used Cleanth Brooks and Robert Penn Warren's Modern Rhetoric to teach writing?

Apologies in advance for what may be a long post. Our son has had a rough few years - both with health issues (which are mainly sorted) and a disjointed education of school-homeschool-boarding school-homeschool. We are now in a position to take stock, plan and really take a big picture look at what we want his learning to achieve in the next few years. He is very asynchronous both in his learning - some subjects he is way ahead of his peers in school, some subjects a bit behind - and in things like comphrehension and attitude - at times he 'gets' stuff some adults don't get, at other times he struggles with things like really basic organisation. We have professional help for some of the 'issues' (his specialist describes it as 'he doesn't fit all the strict diagnostic criteria for Aspergers, but there is definitely something going on') so we are now getting in to the proper 'schooling' planning. At the end of the next month we are moving again, this time to Istanbul. The posting is hopefully for three years, so that will take us up until just before Willem turns 13. I am hoping that at that stage we can move on to the 'Rhetoric' stage. So what do we need to achieve in the next three years to get there? I know that there are a lot of materials out there that give me an idea of what he would be expected to be doing in a US/UK/Australian school system, but I am more interested in the hive mind's experience and ideas of where he could be. Ultimately I would like a bit of an end-state to work back from, taking in to account our interests, travel plans, lifestyle, priorities etc. Please give me your ideas on what a student ready to move on to the Rhetoric stage/Highschool looks like. What have they achieved? Where are their skills at? Feel free to be as prescriptive and specific or as vague and 'meta' as you like.

One of our biggest challenges in high school will be writing (and public speaking). I’m struggling with how to pull off 9th grade writing. In my assessment, DS is very inconsistent in his writing. Sometimes, especially with fiction, he’s written some excellent material; other times, I don’t think it’s particularly good. DS isn’t interested in more creative writing classes or assignments, and I don’t see a need to push it. Our goal is to develop a strong non-fiction writer, including in social sciences, natural sciences, and literary analysis. Right now, our plan to start 9th grade will be to use the text by Skwire Writing With a Thesis: A Rhetoric and Reader, 11th edition. I think that the presentation will resonate with DS, although I’m not sure about the assignments. Has anyone used Skwire and have suggestions on implementation? I had planned to finish the second half of IEW SWI-C over summer, which DS started in the summer before 8th grade, but then DS decided to attend a bricks and mortar school. While I think it was an excellent class, I’m really not sure about the level of writing – the school really wanted to foster independence, which has benefits, but not for getting a good sense of where DS’s writing is for going back to homeschooling! We had planned on using Winifred Horner’s Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition cover to cover as the main text for 8th grade, and we’ll consider it as a supplement for additional examples or as an alternative for topics if Skwire doesn’t go well. I also purchased Killgallon Paragraphs for High School: A Sentence-Composing Approach, but I’m not sure we’ll use it at all. FYI, one of our readings in our WTM-type history and literature readings will be Aristotle’s Rhetoric. A little more background on DS’s previous work on writing. Besides the bricks and mortar school last year, which is a bit of a black box, DS has had some outside classes on creative and non-fiction writing. He read Weston A Rulebook for Arguments in 7th grade, which went over well, and Strunk and White The Elements of Style, in 6th grade, which DS thought was very valuable. DS went through about half to 2/3 of WWS1 in 5th or 6th, and really did not like it. He’s more of a whole-to-parts person, and the presentation seemed too parts-to-whole for him (good material though). We tried an earlier version of LToW; the whole-to-parts approach was a better fit, but at least the earlier version didn’t make us want to try again. DS doesn’t really need more grammar instruction, as it’s very solid; the uncommon issue on a writing assignment is almost always a typo left due to not proofreading (more attention to proofreading could use improvement). Other material for 9th grade and later: We’ll also use John Bean’s Engaging Ideas: The Professor's Guide to Integrating Writing, Critical Thinking, and Active Learning in the Classroom to integrate writing into other courses in 9th grade and later. Really nice text. In 10th grade, we’ll probably use They Say, I Say, either with or without the readings (are the readings necessary?), although we may select certain styles as I’ve heard there’s a lot of repetition in the book. If DS continues to lean toward the natural sciences or social sciences, They Say, I Say would seem to fit nicely. An alternate text, which I also have, would be Thomas Kane's The New Oxford Guide to Writing, recommended in WTM pp.468-476. Finally, we might use Corbett Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student in 11th (WTM recommended for 10th in but Ruth in NZ [lewelma] recommended for 11th, and she’s wonderfully thorough and ambitious. Also, They Say, I Say, seems to fit better with DS’s other planned courses in 10th). I’ll also probably look for someone with experience in teaching writing to get some periodic outside feedback and recommendations to the extent funds allow. What am I missing? Are there some good assignments to use when the texts don’t seem to work? Thanks!

If you've used CAP Writing and Rhetoric, can you tell me what you liked about it? -did it help your student write better -did you feel you had to supplement with another program -do you feel it is complete -are you able to apply it to modern writing i.e. 5 paragraph essay We are currently using Classical Writing, we'll be in Chreia next year. I do think it is a thorough Progym program, however, the way it is laid out, I've had a hard time getting the rhythm and flow of it that our year looked "choppy." If there are already threads to this, please let me know!