Is it utopian to expect 2 or 3 languages at the same level?

[Friederike in Persia]

Over the years we have invested a lot to have our children fluent in 3 languages. They've gone to Tajik nursery and school, though that meant much less time for HS, I've spoken German to them, even when there were English people around (slightly rude,...), German lessons within an otherwise English home-schooling programm,...

and they're clearly fluent in all 3 languages, but their German isn't quite German, nor their Tajik totally like a local's either. Only in the UK do they fully fit in.

Do you think this is as far as one can take it? Or do you go all the way to make your children truly, truly bi/tri-lingual.

[Isa]

I grew up in Michigan with my parents speaking Spanish to us all the time, yet I am much more confident in my English. I am fluent in Spanish and can read and write it, but since I never went to school in a Spanish environment and had limited opportunities to speak it, it is just not up to the same level that my English is.

 

I think it's very hard to raise children to be equally proficient in two or more languages. A child is naturally going to spend more time using one language (usually the language of the country they are in). That being said, a child can gain fluency in multiple languages. Does that fluency have to be equal to be beneficial?

[Laura Corin]

I do know one truly bilingual person (brought up in South America speaking Spanish; moved to the US for graduate school and totally immersed himself in English). Because he had a full Spanish education before coming to the US he has full writing skills in Spanish, as well as in English.

 

The other bilingual people I have known were missing some part of one of their languages: usually they were not as good at writing one of the languages - usually the one in which they were not schooled.

 

Laura

[Nan in Mass]

Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.

[Nan in Mass]

Or they only know their adult work vocabulary in one language, not their mother tongue. Or they only know the things from one culture in one language. I had a friend from Lebanon who only could talk about some things in English because in her culture women never talked about those things to unmarried women and she was unmarried.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I consider my dad fully bilingual. English/French. He learnt English while in the military so he was an adult. He worked all his life in English, yet our family life was French.

 

As for me, I'm at ease with written English for the most part. I did one year of university studies in English, and I worked for 10 years mostly in English, or in a bilingual environment. The only situation where I feel myself limited is on the phone. I can handle a phone conversation, but I don't feel in complete control.

 

With my two kids, our family life is still 100% French. Half of their outside activities are English, half are French. I consider them bilingually appropriate for their ages. At 8yo, she's not supposed to know advanced vocabulary! And at 11yo, my son is not supposed to be able to give an hour long, impromptu speech. But they do function properly in English. They know most of the cultural references (except for Hollywood ones cause we don't watch movies)

 

I do believe complete fluency can only be achieved as an adult. And as homeschooling moms we can only prepare the kids. They will be in charge of finishing their language learning.

[Nan in Mass]

Is it language use that makes them not fit in, or do they not fit culturally?

[jenadina]

This is an interesting question. I went to high school with a girl from Iran who was fluent (reading, writing, and speaking) in 5 languages and learning a 6th. I think it *can* be done, but I'm not 100% sure how to do it! I really wish I could pick her brains...

[Friederike in Persia]

I guess it boils more down to cultural adaptation than language on its own (as far as one can separate those 2).

So my kids speak Tajik apropriate for their age level, but they might refer to where babies come from (shock, horror, had to stop that one quickly, babies get bought from the bazaar here !) until I stop them short.

For German it's more that they use vocab of a mid-30ish person (mine), rather than the "in words", that their cousins use. They also lag behind with their grammar some, so they sound younger.

None of it being a big deal, apart from them being stuck with a rather perfectionist mother.

 

Laura's post made me think. I guess my definition of bilingual is nearly as highly pitched as her's and though I know people who speak all sorts of languages well, I would call hardly any of them bilingual, cause they don't quite sound like native speakers.

But Isa put it well, do the languages really have to be equal to be beneficial? My kids might not quite sound like Germans (which hurts my pride sometimes:confused:), but they function perfectly fine in Germany (and are considered super cool, cause they speak English so well :D -English is thought of as such a cool language in Germany, lol :lol:)

 

I'll try and put that one to rest then. :chillpill:

[Matryoshka]

I do believe complete fluency can only be achieved as an adult. And as homeschooling moms we can only prepare the kids. They will be in charge of finishing their language learning.

 

:iagree: I think preparing them with a good accent and foundational grammar is key, but I'm not expecting them to be fully fluent at their current ages (8 and 10). I know I wasn't - but now most people can't believe I'm not a native speaker, at least when I'm speaking, even though I know for sure my adjective declensions aren't always right. A good accent will get you more than halfway there - people just don't expect non-native speakers to not have a foreign accent. I'm a bit more self-conscious about my written German, partly because I learned mostly by speaking, and when I write it down, any mistakes are there in black and white.

 

But by laying the foundation now, I'm confident that if they decide fluency in two or three languages is important to them, I'll have given them the tools to be truly trilingual.

[Ohdanigirl]

I don't think it is ever 100%. I grew up in the U.S with my mother speaking to us in Spanish and my father in English. Since we went to school in English we preferred it and eventually spoke it better than Spanish. I now live in Mexico and admit my Spanish vocabulary has expanded, yet although I can read I can't write an Essay. Plus it depends on the level, my family has a few lawyers and I can never understand their briefs (Spanish), but often help them when they don't understand the legal papers in English. On a proffessional level I feel better in English, but I often think in Spanish....WEIRD. Also I still have an accent in Spanish, even though it was my first spoken language. Good Luck

 

 

Danielle

[violin69]

It is possible. My mom is fully trilingual in Lativian, Portuguese, and English. She switches between them with no problem.

[Pongo]

I think it can happen. I had one parent always speak Spanish to me, 1 always spoke English to be. Both read to me and I to them in the language they we more accustomed to. Then on top of that I have an older sister that is deaf and I grew up learning American Sign Language. I clepped out of all my college foreign language courses.

I feel confident in all three and I have the correct accent for English as well as Spanish. I'll never forget the look on my husbands face when we were dating and I had to call my mom, she is the Spanish speaker. He just about fell off his chair. Then a few months later my sister came to visit, he knew she was deaf but I don't think he knew how fast ASL can be.

I feel equally comfortable with all 3, although it can be awfully quiet in a room with deaf people conversing:)

[Joan in GE]

I guess it boils more down to cultural adaptation than language on its own (as far as one can separate those 2).

 

 

I think more of capacity....are any of us even perfectly monolingual? It seems to be related to exposure to vocabulary and social circles.

 

If you go into the field of medicine, you don't enter knowing all the medical terminology. But you have English grammatical understanding and you can learn to slot in the proper word once you know it.

 

If you move South from the North or North from the South - in the US and in other countries, like Spain, France, etc, there are adaptations to be made or you won't sound like a local, either.

 

Is perfect accent necessary for being bilingual?

 

If you want your child/grown up eventually to be accepted as a local, there could be some interesting discussions....

 

I met a Swiss German lady recently living in Geneva. When she spoke French, I could hear the accent and asked where she was from. She said she's from the Swiss German part and that she is proud of her accent - it is part of her heritage, part of her person. She doesn't want to deny who she is. I thought that was a completely new way of looking at the issue. Am I negating the cultural heritage of my children to want them to speak without an accent? Does it affect the way they feel about themselves then - a certain dislike of their American genes? Am I making them in some way insecure about themselves? Probably it all depends on how it is done, for what purpose, values of the parents, etc.

 

 

So for me, developing a bilingual child is giving the grammar/conjugation base and enough situational vocabulary for everyday life...cultural information to understand the cultural differences and I'm still trying to figure out other aspects which are important to me.

 

I do know a German lady who speaks English "perfectly". You simply cannot tell that she is German - that is how good it is. Frequently Germans have a certain cadence that can make it difficult to understand their English even if the grammar is perfect. But hers is not like that. BUT she has no children. She works in an English speaking office. Her husband is British and doesn't speak German. She did years in an ER in the UK and is a doctor (frequently they use books written in English).

 

Sometimes you think someone is bilingual without accent or grammar problems until you get them talking about a situation which they have never discussed in English before. Then their English becomes translated and grammar differences are manifested....

 

Just a few thoughts,

Joan

[cathmom]

The book The Bilingual Edge talks about how there are very few perfectly balanced bilinguals.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I met a Swiss German lady recently living in Geneva. When she spoke French, I could hear the accent and asked where she was from. She said she's from the Swiss German part and that she is proud of her accent - it is part of her heritage, part of her person. She doesn't want to deny who she is. I thought that was a completely new way of looking at the issue. Am I negating the cultural heritage of my children to want them to speak without an accent? Does it affect the way they feel about themselves then - a certain dislike of their American genes? Am I making them in some way insecure about themselves? Probably it all depends on how it is done, for what purpose, values of the parents, etc.

 

 

Oh that is very close to what I live daily. We're French Canadians. Of the variety called "pure laine" (pure wool). Basically, DH and I can both trace our ancestry to the first arrivals in Quebec. I have no other blood but French and French Canadian. DH has a little bit of Huron blood somewhere. We're proud of our language, proud of our ancestors having survived and kept their language and their religion even when France dropped them like a hot potato.

Now we're surrounded by English as soon as you leave the province. English is a must if we don't want to limit our kids. (Many French Canadians don't speak English at all, it's rejected very strongly in many areas). We want our kids to be able to move in both cultures, but, and it's a big BUT, we want them secure in their French Canadian heritage. We don't want them to identify as English Canadians.

 

It's a fine like to walk. Sometimes I wonder if I should wait till they're older teens before pushing English on them. That way, they'd have their identity quite set. But it's so much easier to learn a language at a young age.

 

Bilingualism does not mean a bi-identity. One should be able to navigate in both circles, but not necessarily belong to both.

[Joan in GE]

Oh that is very close to what I live daily. We're French Canadians. Of the variety called "pure laine" (pure wool). Basically, DH and I can both trace our ancestry to the first arrivals in Quebec. I have no other blood but French and French Canadian. DH has a little bit of Huron blood somewhere. We're proud of our language, proud of our ancestors having survived and kept their language and their religion even when France dropped them like a hot potato.

Now we're surrounded by English as soon as you leave the province. English is a must if we don't want to limit our kids. (Many French Canadians don't speak English at all, it's rejected very strongly in many areas). We want our kids to be able to move in both cultures, but, and it's a big BUT, we want them secure in their French Canadian heritage. We don't want them to identify as English Canadians.

 

It's a fine like to walk. Sometimes I wonder if I should wait till they're older teens before pushing English on them. That way, they'd have their identity quite set. But it's so much easier to learn a language at a young age.

 

Bilingualism does not mean a bi-identity. One should be able to navigate in both circles, but not necessarily belong to both.

 

Interesting....

[Friederike in Persia]

When I studied in the UK, married to an English man and without children, people couldn't tell where I was from. They ususally guessed I was from another English speaking country. Those were the days :001_smile:

3 children later and swopping between 3 languages all day long, I can sometimes hear my own mistakes now. :glare:

 

I can see the German Swiss lady's point about her identity tied up with her accent, but my children are both, English and German. So I want them to sound like an English child in the UK and like a German one in Germany. And yes, out here, I do like that they ususally sound like a Tajik child, when playing with the neighbours or going to local school.

But it all takes sooo much effort, esp. to have them literate in all 3.

So I guess giving them a good start, without looking too high, is the best I can do right now and then when they're older they can choose for themselves which languages they want to take on, which ones to drop (in as far as one drops a languages).

 

Coming back to the Swiss lady again, did she have a lot of self-confidence? Was she very patriotic? Wouldn't most people rather sound like the locals? I know I do. How cool is it to learn another language and then go and use it in that country and being thought of as one of them? :D

[Joan in GE]

3 children later and swopping between 3 languages all day long, I can sometimes hear my own mistakes now. :glare:

 

Coming back to the Swiss lady again, did she have a lot of self-confidence? Was she very patriotic? Wouldn't most people rather sound like the locals? I know I do. How cool is it to learn another language and then go and use it in that country and being thought of as one of them? :D

 

Sometimes I can't speak English correctly anymore and I'm not even that great in French! too many wires crossed I think. I sure wouldn't mind people NOT asking where I am from - but I guess that is an extremely common question here since it is so international and one I like to ask myself...:001_smile:

 

It was only a brief interaction that I had with her - but when you ask these questions I'm wondering if it isn't something to do with the Swiss problem of 3 cultures in one country.....I would guess that she's proud of her German side...

 

Have you read the book Third Culture Kids by Pollack? There's even a wikipedia reference to the subject here....

[Renai]

Sometimes I can't speak English correctly anymore and I'm not even that great in French! too many wires crossed I think.

 

This made me lol. There is a Mexican actress known as la India Maria. In one of her movies, she comes to the US, and at one point says (translated to English): "I'm forgetting my Spanish, and my English isn't so good either!"

 

I feel that way sometimes. Spanish is my second language, and sometimes I wonder if I speak worse Spanish now than I did 10 years ago, or I'm just more mindful of when I make a mistake. Then again, I'll sometimes forget what I want to say English, but it comes to mind readily in Spanish. I'm so confused. Not to mention the different dialects of English. Yes, I can speak standard English (no one can figure out where I'm from, military brat), but I've just finally come to realize (admit?) that my black family speaks differently from mainstream, and I fall right into line when I"m talking to them. Don't get me talking when I'm in the south :lol:. But, I don't speak "ghetto" very well. I'd be picked out like a booger in the nose. When I speak Spanish, most people guess I"m from the Dominican Republic (although one Puerto Rican woman swore I was from her country, and a Cuban man thought I was from his). Either that or Cuba. I'm from Ohio. Neither parent speaks Spanish. My Japanese teacher says I have a nice Japanese accent.

 

I belong nowhere. It's sad (not really). I think I'll check out that TCK link, maybe I'll find myself somewhere in there. What do I do about my daughter? She's half black and half white. Zilch on her white culture (Scottish/Irish) as it was assault. She's being raised in a culture that she was "born" into (Mexican, but also northern New Mexican), but not in her blood. She's going to be more separated from her black culture than I am.

 

Sorry, started thinking to myself out loud again.

 

I think learning as many languages as one is able, and being able to adapt to different cultures is a wonderful thing. Something that one should take advantage of if at all possible.

[Joan in GE]

what a history....your love will help her the most with sorting all that out! Thankfully you are in a melting pot country. I hope you have good friends where you are.

 

There are so many factors in raising happy healthy human beings. The recipe for one isn't necessarily the recipe for the other, even in one family.

 

Adaptation....sometimes it takes a while to realize what we are adapting to...