High school for the non-college-bound

[Innisfree]

Want to mull this over with me?

 

For a student with a low average IQ plus ASD, what is essential and what can we skip? Or, for your own student's challenges, what do you see as important?

 

For the state, we have to do yearly testing in math and reading/language or an evaluation. No other requirements.

 

I'm currently thinking we do math through maybe algebra 1, then switch to consumer math and perhaps something like a spreadsheet or accounting program. Keep plugging along at spelling and grammar for the sake of punctuation and decent basic writing skills. Practice business letter and email formats, and writing a good paragraph and short essay.

 

Foreign language I think we skip. We do study roots and word origins, but she doesn't retain much.

 

Basic history. I want her to know how the essential chronology fits together, when the major wars were, and who fought whom. I want her to understand the basic philosophical differences between various systems of government, and how our government is supposed to function.

 

Science seems harder. Her analytical abilities are low. Memorization is hard, too. I think my main goals might be an understanding of the scientific method and introductory familiarity with the various branches. I could see a heavy focus on practical aspects related to her special interest.

 

I'm thinking about spending a lot of time on volunteer work related to her special interest. There is potential for employment there, but only at a very low wage unless she can manage a business. I could start the business and work alongside her for the foreseeable future, shifting responsibility to her as she can handle it. She is good with routines, once they are established.

 

Anyone else trying to think this through? How can we prepare our kids to support themselves? What do you think is essential for a high school diploma?

[exercise_guru]

The First thing I might look at is where are her strengths. For exampled could she do accounting? Does she remember rules? What about music any interest there? art? I would try to play to her strength anywhere I could. I would get a cash register and do applied math running a register and counting money. I would work on filling out forms. I might teach her a home class like sewing or cooking as an elective.  For algebra even I would focus on those variables meaning real life stuff. That is what algebra should be anyway."If I give sally 15 dollars and it cost 5 she gives me x back". That kind of stuff. Writing is important whether it is typing or whatever. 

 

 

Just going to add on here so I can keep the idea together

 

So I would consider daily life skills: laundry: time managment: cooking: Basic sewing just because hands on is so much easier for some kids. : Is there a trade you could explore. 

Definitely keep everything real world applied. Geometry , math, measurements volumes recipes. The reason being that abstract stuff doesn't always work for many kids.

Will this child get a drivers license? If so then you could also look into letting her do BrainHQ because there are some good navigation and people skills exercises. I am requiring my kids to do the navigations section before they get their license.  Technology and training is always good because that is where things are going. 

 

For general high school my daughter is required history,english, Math, Writing and reading. Then beyond that there are electives in sewing, cooking, teen life, pathways study skills, orchestra/band, choir, marketing, computer stuff. Typing, 

 

Work to have any adult services that might be availble. Maybe consult some counselors or social workers to give you insight on how you can work a path forward. 

 

Edited March 5, 2018 by exercise_guru

[shinyhappypeople]

If possible, it's good to get at least some geometry.  I managed to avoid Geometry in high school, and I have felt its lack in my daily life.   I'm not talking anything super advanced, but maybe something that teaches geometry you use in everyday life or maybe Key to Geometry. I don't know.  Clearly, this isn't my field of expertise.  I had to teach myself a lot of it, and it's just annoying. I wish I'd learned it in high school like 99% of my peers.  Acellus offers a special ed geometry class that might work.  They have other special ed and remedial classes that might work for the other subject areas.  DD14 has primarily language-based LDs and is doing the High School English 1 - SE.  She's learning and able to be successful.  Big win   :)  

  

 

Edited March 5, 2018 by shinyhappypeople

[Lecka]

My son is much younger, but I suspect that Algebra would be a total waste of time for him, and the time would be better spent working on K-6 math and making sure it is really solid.

 

I’ll see how he is going when he is older, but if he is realistically not going to go to college, and he probably is not, and if he probably needs to solidify the math he will probably need as an adult, it’s what I think is likely at this point.

[Innisfree]

No interest in music or art. Rules, sometimes memory isn't the issue, but compliance is. It depends heavily on circumstances.

 

Accounting would never be a career, but just keeping track of "Mrs. Smith paid this, and Mrs. Jones paid that, and I've made $x.00 this month" is easily within her grasp.

 

Algebra may be a stretch, yes, and geometry is good to do, as much as possible. At the moment remembering which formula is for area of a rectangle and which is area of a triangle is the height of our ambitions, lol. What specific bits of geometry have you wished you had?

 

Acellus does sound like it may be useful. I'd thought about it for science and history, but math might be good too.

 

What do you all think are the essentials you'd want for your own kids? Do you think you'll plan a course of study ahead of time, or just keep going until you need to adjust and change course?

Edited March 5, 2018 by Innisfree

[Storygirl]

We're thinking through similar issues, although DS13 will be in public school for high school and will not be homeschooling. He also has SLDs in math and reading comprehension and has dysgraphia and weaknesses with some aspects of writing, so high school academics are going to be tough for him.

 

I can tell you that the high school that he will go to tentatively would plan to have him in the resource room for math and language arts. If he manages to get through algebra 1, it will be more than I expect. His visual spatial disability will make geometry a nightmare. The way the school explained it is the the resource room math will teach "aspects" of algebra during the year that he should be taking algebra, and "aspects" of geometry during that year. There are state end of course exams for those classes, which he will have to take once, but he will not be required to pass them in order to graduate (he would get an exemption).

 

That sounds like a good plan to me for him. The reality is that he will not have to do algebra or geometry in his life after graduation, other than very rudimentary things. He needs to learn to handle money -- paying for things at the store and handling his paychecks (please, let there be paychecks!). And do things like measure with a ruler and tape measure. Those are things that are normally not taught in high school math, but he will need that instruction and lots of practice.

 

This school has said that he does not need to try to take a foreign language.

 

For language arts, I don't know exactly what the classes will cover. But I don't see the point of having him try to struggle through The Scarlet Letter or a Shakespeare play. As an English major, I see so much value in that for most high school students. But DS just will have a hard time, and will struggle much but is not likely to gain reading skills from the experience. If I were homeschooling him, I would still have him do literature, but on an appropriate level, instead of trying to make him keep up with same age peers. For real life, he needs to be able to read and understand a newspaper article, be able to read things on the internet with some discernment and understanding, read a job manual, be able to read and think through forms that he needs to sign. DS has some strengths in writing, in addition to his weaknesses, so I would try to work on the weaknesses but mostly have him write things that play to his strengths.

 

DS is very musical and plays a couple of instruments (with talent), so we will have him in the school band and give him as many opportunities with music as we can (private lessons, etc.). This is as important or more important than academics for him, in my opinion, because he needs to be GOOD at something, since so many things are hard for him. And it's a hobby he can pursue as an adult. Which is important, because he may not be able to hold down a very exciting job.

[Storygirl]

Another comment about school -- We are in the process of switching school districts, because although our local district would be okay for him, we think it many ways it would not actually be good for him, in both personal and academic ways.

 

Our current school district would not put him fully in the resource room for math and language arts. Instead, he would be in grade level math PLUS an extra period of math intervention study hall. He would be in the general LA class PLUS a LA intervention study hall. AND he would have time in the resource room (not a whole period) for those subjects.

 

He really would need all of that support to try to keep up with classmates, and I'm glad they put it in his IEP. But my goodness, his entire day would be spent swimming upstream trying to do academics that are too hard for him and doing intervention that he doesn't like. And with five periods a day for LA and math, plus time for science and social studies and lunch.... there is zero time for any electives, and it is even hard to get him in a band class or gym.

 

I think he would hate school. For me, there is just a line, where trying to keep up with peers in academics is going to result in misery and stress. And when he won't use most of those skills after graduation.... I'm not sure it's worth it. There are people who disagree with this point of view and want their kids in mainstream classes no matter what. I personally was a very high academic achiever, and education is extremely important to me. But I am wanting to set realistic goals for DS. Not so low that he can coast through school without effort. Not so high that he would sit in classes that are too difficult and learn nothing. We are looking for the Just Right school plan for him. We believe this new school district we are moving to will be able to give him more of what he needs.

[Crimson Wife]

I would look at the general ed track (lowest one that gives a standard diploma rather than “life skillsâ€) and try to match that using AGS and/or Walch Power Basics or similar.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Innisfree]

Thanks, folks. It's very helpful to hear how others are managing this. I'm going to continue to think this through, obviously, so welcome any other ideas.

[Innisfree]

I would look at the general ed track (lowest one that gives a standard diploma rather than “life skillsâ€) and try to match that using AGS and/or Walch Power Basics or similar.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This brings up another question.

 

If classes are not able to replicate a general ed track, would you do anything different about a diploma for your graduate? The public school diplomas reflect in some fashion the work the student has done. Are homeschool parents obligated to do the same? I can't really see how it would matter. Our community colleges accept basically everyone, and test them all to see where they should start.

 

Though the only subject I have considered just skipping for dd is a foreign language, and we could manage a stab at that. I know some homeschoolers use Rosetta Stone. She could probably manage that. I'm used to thinking in terms of Lukeion Latin for my older dd, so I have to adjust to a different set of expectations. Maybe we could manage a version of the general ed diploma. I'm just not sure about wasting much time for the sake of checking boxes. Still lots to figure out...

[Lecka]

It is different in different states. We live in New York now and I don’t think my son could get a regular diploma here. Unless something changes he is not on a path to get a regular diploma here.

 

But in Kansas I expect him to receive a regular diploma, from what I understand.

 

It depends on the state, they make different choices about what to require for their diplomas.

 

That’s my understanding. I have heard New York is one of the strictest states and that many students here who don’t graduate with a regular diploma absolutely would in a neighboring state.

 

But the flip side is I have an impression that there are some (transition) options here for students who graduate without a regular diploma, so there could be benefits to not graduating with a regular diploma if those would be good transition programs. I don’t know too much about that.

 

I know where we used to live, if students graduated at 18 they would not be able to continue having transition/educational services through the school.

 

I think depending on what is available you might look at transition programs through school, unless you have a good path forward for helping her start a business — which sounds awesome.

[PeterPan]

Here's your problem. You have both your own feelings (what does it mean to do a good job, am I doing an ok job at this thing that is really important that I've never done before) AND this issue of what it means to have a lifelong disability. And it's hard to chill your feelings on the one so you can really grapple with the enormity of the other. It's easy to get distracted.

 

I agree with Crimson that you want to look at what tracks are typical diploma tracks in your state, find the lowest, and replicate it with material that is within grasp for her. That is essentially what the ps would do if they were working with her. They would make it work. So that's what you'll do. 

 

If you want a language, and if that's common to that track (which I doubt, but hey fine whatever), then I would remember that there's a wide spread in what happens from state to state. I lived in states growing up where the expectations were way high, with college level pacing in high school, and I lived in states that didn't even have TEXTBOOKS. Seriously. The important thing in calling it a language course, especially for high school years 1 and 2 (which are surely all you're trying to do) are exposure to culture, cognates (words common in both english and the language being studied), and basic useful phrases. Yes you can go farther. But if you spend the time and she learns culture, appreciates that people live lots of different ways, does some studying of countries where they speak that language, learns some phrases, cooks some food, roll with it, kwim? Do not be hyper hyper picky about which verbs and how much. Create a rich experience that is meaningful and memorable to HER. If it's not going to enrich her and be engaging to her (and it's not within reach), I wouldn't bother. If you can bring it within reach and it enriches her understanding of life, it could be valuable, kwim? Don't do it merely to do it, unless you find that the act of memorizing is a valuable skill to her. If it's not, then the value has to be somewhere else, and that somewhere else is stretching her world view. Go to restaurants, meet people, engage...

 

Now to the lifelong disability part. My personal opinion is that you should focus on whatever you'll be crying about 5 years from now. My guess is that 5 years from now you won't be crying over whether she did spanish or not. You WILL be crying over rigidity, inability to follow instructions of an employer, inability to do basic problem solving, life skills, etc. Life skills, social thinking, basic social skills, these are going to be HUGE for her. You'll probably want to find her an autism-specific employment skills development program, get her enrolled, and keep her enrolled. I don't know her, so maybe that doesn't fit. Around here there are orgs that have services like this, and they do classes and training programs and they keep teens, young adults, adults in there till it gels. They work on interviewing skills, people skills, job skills. They do them with someone of training similar to an intervention specialist, behaviorist, or someone qualified to work with people with disabilities.

 

Social skills will be her #1 determiner of employability. At least that's what I'm being told. 

 

Sigh on the starting a business. Do you want to run a business? My ds struggles to problem solve. Owning his *own* business doesn't seem really practical. And the sucky thing is you have to have some measure of social skills to stay employed by someone else.

[Lecka]

I do think depending on policies where you live, they might do very adapted course work and have it be more individual, and then still qualify for a regular diploma as long as special needs were documented to show it was appropriate (aka IEP meeting type stuff). I’m not sure but that’s my impression for where we used to live.

 

But here it’s not that way.

 

But where we used to live I don’t think (my understanding) that they had these different classes of diplomas.

 

Here there are exit exams required for a regular diploma and they will reduce the required scores but if you can’t meet the lower score then they just don’t get a regular diploma. (My understanding.)

[PeterPan]

Here some of the autism schools don't give diplomas. You finish, but you don't end up with a diploma. So there can be that outcome, yes. But obviously if it's within reach in some fashion, you'd like them to get there. Just depends on the dc. The kids at those schools are also going to be on the medicaid waiver, getting services, etc. 

[Lecka]

I’m also not sure if my son is going to be better off with a regular diploma if he needs services as an adult.

 

I have an adult cousin I am pretty close to, who is not very employable. He has worked but he is just challenged in keeping a job for various reasons.

 

It’s a very hard situation.

 

What is so strange is my cousin and my son have really opposite profiles in a lot of ways.

 

My son has very weak language but he is pretty good with a lot of things that don’t require language.

 

My cousin has good language and is very knowledgeable about a lot of things, he is great with trivia type of things. But he has a hard time in a lot of ways. His problem solving is very weak.

 

Problem solving is my son’s relative strength. His two highest areas on testing (relative strength, so these are average scores) are working memory and problem-solving skills (especially visual I guess).

 

Just in my family we will talk about it and think my older son had better ability to problem solve and follow directions when he was 5, compared to my cousin as an adult. And my son who has much, much poorer language also is already better at problem solving and following directions than my cousin.

 

If one thing changes in something he knows how to do, he just does not know how to respond, it throws him off completely.

 

But his language ability is so good, he is witty and a pleasure to talk to. My son is 9 and has just started really reliably answering “how are you†with “good†in the past year.

 

It’s very hard to comprehend, to be honest, and also just hard that the unemployed adult with autism is not theoretical to me but a close family member.

[Innisfree]

So what I hear you all saying is that you probably would not award a standard diploma as homeschooling parents unless your kids approximated some reasonable, maybe easier version of the basic, minimal general ed requirements for the public schools in your states. Have I got that right?

 

I think that course is within our grasp, if we keep expectations down. So, consumer math instead of algebra, etc., and a language+culture class instead of intensive grammar and vocabulary, like PeterPan suggested.

 

The business, yes, I have those reservations too. But she could certainly do the work I have in mind, and the more money I can sock away, the more she can inherit someday, even if she can't continue a business on her own. I don't know, we aren't there yet.

 

My fear is that she's right on this tricky edge where her disability is not entirely obvious, but still really there. So people will see her as maybe not terribly bright, but more as having a bad attitude and sometimes inappropriate reactions, maybe sometimes being obviously intentionally rude, rather than seeing her as having a disability. But the disability is there.

 

She won't qualify for a waiver here, and I'm not at all sure about SSI. I really doubt she'll get it, actually.

 

So she looks far more competent than she is.

 

The programs to prepare for employment sound good. I'll have to see what's available locally. We do have a few places where she can get volunteer experience.

 

All these ideas help. Thanks so much!

[Lecka]

I think it depends on consequences for the diplomas. If there is no drawback to a regular diploma I think go for it.

 

If she may not qualify for services/programs as an adult I think a regular diploma could be better.

 

But I think it will really depend on the situation locally.

 

It’s not going to be the same across the country.

 

But this will depend, but some places they might look at diploma type when it’s time for eligibility for SSI and waivers. So then if she does have a chance then it could help her. But if she’s not going to qualify anyway then there may be no point.

 

It’s hard to say.

[PeterPan]

If you're saving for her, have you looked into trust funds? There are ways people set it up so the assets don't count against them for qualifying for things later.

[shinyhappypeople]

No interest in music or art. Rules, sometimes memory isn't the issue, but compliance is. It depends heavily on circumstances.

 

Accounting would never be a career, but just keeping track of "Mrs. Smith paid this, and Mrs. Jones paid that, and I've made $x.00 this month" is easily within her grasp.

 

Algebra may be a stretch, yes, and geometry is good to do, as much as possible. At the moment remembering which formula is for area of a rectangle and which is area of a triangle is the height of our ambitions, lol. What specific bits of geometry have you wished you had?

 

Acellus does sound like it may be useful. I'd thought about it for science and history, but math might be good too.

 

What do you all think are the essentials you'd want for your own kids? Do you think you'll plan a course of study ahead of time, or just keep going until you need to adjust and change course?

 

It's hard to say what I wish I'd learn.   I've run into problems when I've tried to build things, and I did have to teach myself how to figure out area.  A lot of it is stuff that is covered in elementary/middle school.  We moved a lot, so math education before high school has a lot of swiss cheese holes.  

 

 I definitely have a plan sketched out.  It involves special ed English/lit, continuing with TT as far as she can (hopefully Algebra 1/Geometry, plus consumer math.  She's in TT7 at the moment.)  The usual social studies sequence.  Some Spanish.  Basically the usual everything, but modified (sometimes significantly) to meet her where she's at.  One way we modify is that she's always allowed to access reference materials.  Always.  It takes some of the load off of her already taxed working memory.  I also don't require very much reading in content areas. 

 

I really, really hope Acellus works for us over the long term.  It's still early days, so we'll see.  It's one of the few programs out there that offers special ed classes for high school, and it's not expensive.  I like that in her English class (SE) the questions have a lot of support in them, so when her working memory fails her (and it does), she can still show what she knows.  The challenge level is just right and she's still able to be successful.  

[Crimson Wife]

This brings up another question.

 

If classes are not able to replicate a general ed track, would you do anything different about a diploma for your graduate? The public school diplomas reflect in some fashion the work the student has done. Are homeschool parents obligated to do the same? I can't really see how it would matter. Our community colleges accept basically everyone, and test them all to see where they should start.

 

Though the only subject I have considered just skipping for dd is a foreign language, and we could manage a stab at that. I know some homeschoolers use Rosetta Stone. She could probably manage that. I'm used to thinking in terms of Lukeion Latin for my older dd, so I have to adjust to a different set of expectations. Maybe we could manage a version of the general ed diploma. I'm just not sure about wasting much time for the sake of checking boxes. Still lots to figure out...

 

I've been told my daughter could get a foreign language exemption based on her disabilities if we pushed for one. Our district offers American Sign Language so I'm hoping that won't be necessary. But just like the district wouldn't have a PE requirement be the reason why a student with mobility challenges failed to graduate, the foreign language requirement is one that can be waived under certain circumstances. It's not a core academic course.

 

I wouldn't feel right about awarding a standard diploma if I failed to match or exceed the requirements for the general ed track. It's one thing to waive a non-core course like foreign language due to the disability because those types of waivers exist in the PS. But to just do the equivalent of life skills and call it a standard diploma strikes me as wrong.

 

[Crimson Wife]

If you're saving for her, have you looked into trust funds? There are ways people set it up so the assets don't count against them for qualifying for things later.

 

ABLE Accounts are another option and cheaper than hiring an attorney to set up a SN trust.

 

[Crimson Wife]

Here some of the autism schools don't give diplomas. You finish, but you don't end up with a diploma. So there can be that outcome, yes. But obviously if it's within reach in some fashion, you'd like them to get there. Just depends on the dc. The kids at those schools are also going to be on the medicaid waiver, getting services, etc. 

 

Graduating with a standard diploma rather than "life skills" doesn't preclude someone from qualifying for SSI, Medicaid, Vocational Rehab, etc. Those programs look at the overall functioning level and barriers to employment. I've encountered college graduates on those benefit programs as their disabilities are preventing them from landing and keeping a job.

 

[Lecka]

I would think it was wrong too in a state that had different levels of diplomas and standards associated with them.

 

But not every state does it that way. My understanding is that my son would receive a full diploma in Kansas but would not here in New York.

 

I also think there are some programs here where a regular diploma would be a negative.

 

I think it depends a lot on the local situation. I don’t think it’s something that is the same across the country. So many of these programs are local or state.

 

I think for transition programs sometimes kids lose access if they graduate with a regular diploma. Where we lived in Kansas it would be more desirable to do those programs through the school district than through another agency; it’s just more the way it is set up there, locally.

 

I think for a lot it will just depend.

 

But it’s a fact that there is variation among states and there are kids in New York who won’t receive a regular diploma here but would receive one in many other states. It’s not a uniform standard.

[Innisfree]

Thanks, folks. I'm certainly not thinking of just doing life skills, with or without a standard diploma.

 

I guess I'm trying to figure out all the permutations of what adjusting educational expectations means. As in, at exactly what point does a standard diploma *stop* being appropriate. There doesn't seem to be anything in the state laws about how it should be handled, and I'm not in touch with the schools to know how they do things. But I'm not interested in just doing the minimum. Quite the opposite, but I'm still sorting out just what the maximum dd can handle actually is, and what is the most important way for her to spend her time.

 

I know of a local homeschool evaluator with a lot of special needs experience. Sounds like it's time for me to make an appointment with her to learn more.

[Storygirl]

I've been told my daughter could get a foreign language exemption based on her disabilities if we pushed for one. Our district offers American Sign Language so I'm hoping that won't be necessary. But just like the district wouldn't have a PE requirement be the reason why a student with mobility challenges failed to graduate, the foreign language requirement is one that can be waived under certain circumstances. It's not a core academic course.

 

I wouldn't feel right about awarding a standard diploma if I failed to match or exceed the requirements for the general ed track. It's one thing to waive a non-core course like foreign language due to the disability because those types of waivers exist in the PS. But to just do the equivalent of life skills and call it a standard diploma strikes me as wrong.

 

 

In our state, no students are required to take a foreign language for graduation. It is an elective.

 

Most colleges, however, require it for admission. So it's standard for most students to take it.

 

Interestingly, DD12's private dyslexia school (which goes through high school) does not offer foreign language classes. One of the staff members explained that when a student graduates from their school, the college foreign language requirements would be waived, because the classes were not offered at the high school. Since the student did not have an opportunity to take it, it would not be held against them. I have not researched it myself to see if this kind of automatic exemption is just in our state.

 

I'd have to look up our state graduation requirements again, but we don't have a life skills diploma option here (at least one listed on our state department of education website). There is a work readiness option for those who cannot pass the graduation exams. But those students still have to complete the required number of credits in academic courses (4 English, 4 math, 3 science, 3 social studies, 5 electives, 1/2 phys ed, 1/2 health).

[Innisfree]

One issue I'm imagining is how my dd would feel if she got a diploma which was noticeably different from what her very academically capable sister gets. It may turn out to be a non-issue. But she is absolutely self-aware enough to be unhappy if she feels like she is on a special needs track. She can certainly do some academic work, but she is not functioning at the same level as her sister. She is just beginning to grapple with this reality. I'm probably a bit overprotective because I see her starting to notice.

[Storygirl]

I should add that the requirements I listed in my previous post are for students enrolled in school. Homeschoolers in our state do not have to comply with that in order to graduate their own children.

 

I am no longer homeschooling, but my plan was to have DS complete the typical credit requirements, though with materials suited to his abilities. We are required to teach certain subjects each year as homeschoolers, anyway, so unless we were to choose not to comply with those regulations, we would have fulfilled the core classes anyway.

[ElizabethB]

We had military friends with a special needs student, the type of diploma he would have ended up with varied by state. He ended up in Arkansas for high school, and they continued his “high school†(but not true high school level) work until he was 19. The dad has stayed in the military longer than most of our friends, they need to save up a lot of money to be able to provide for their son, he will never be able to live alone. He was always in the school systems, they never homeschooled him.

[Lecka]

That is our situation, my husband is in the military and it varies by state for us, too!  My husband is going to retire soon, though, we think it will be better to be stable somewhere and build up some connections in the community.  Hopefully, lol.  I think there's a lot to be said for staying in longer to save money!