Explain College Math Courses to me

[Teresa in GA]

So, I'm trying to decide if and when my son would be ready to take a DE class at our local university.

 

He'll be 16 this summer and entering 11th grade in the fall. He's currently taking online Algebra II this year thru DO and will most likely take PreCalculus online with DO next year and Calculus for 12th grade, unless we decide to enroll him in a college DE math class. My problems are, I'm not sure if he's ready for college level math (i.e. math background) and also what college class would naturally come after Algebra II in high school (if any).

 

Please explain them to me. I have no idea what they mean and if they would be a repeat of what he's already learned or if they'd be way over his head. 

 

The first few lower level courses I see on the course catalog are as follows:

Math 1001: Quantitative Skills and Reason;

Math 1101: Intro to Math Modeling;

Math 1111: College Algebra;

Math 1113: Precalculus;

Math 1260: Survey of Calculus. 

 

He's taken the SAT once in December 2017, and scored an 1130, with a Math score of 540 (27.0). We have not submitted his DE application, but he qualifies academically, (I think). They may require him to take some SAT Subject tests, but am waiting to hear from them. 

 

He thinks he wants to major in engineering, so he needs to push himself in math and take advantage of all available resources locally. But he also needs to do well and I don't want to set him up for failure. 

 

So I thought I'd ask you guys to see what you recommend. 

1. If he takes a DE class, which one would naturally follow high school Algebra II?

2. Is there a benefit or drawback to having him take college DE classes instead of say an online high school class like Precal. thru DO as originally planned. 

[regentrude]

Anything below College Algebra is remedial math for students whose high school math is too weak to progress to College Algebra (which itself is actually high school level; we offer the course as a short 9 week refresher course for students whose algebra is a bit rusty).

I would not recommend such a class for DE unless you have no alternative to teach the material, since those classes will be filled with struggling students. 

 

I would recommend taking high school level math at home or through an online program. After algebra 2 he should be ready for precalculus.

I would use college to DE calculus and up, especially since he is interested in engineering.

Just a heads up: for engineering, any math below calc 1 will not earn credit towards the degree but be considered remedial.

 

ETA: DO Precalc sounds like a very good choice. I would go that route.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2018 by regentrude

[kiana]

Material-wise, it would be college algebra and then precalculus. Together, these two are roughly equivalent to a high school precalculus class. But in general, I would prefer to do an honors high school class rather than a university class -- the university college algebra/precalculus classes are often populated by people who are not the strongest math students (the strongest ones place into calculus or higher) and not that enthusiastic either. DO's class is good. 

 

The other 3 are non-majors classes -- the first two are gen ed classes for people who don't want to take college algebra, and the last one is an applied calculus class, usually aimed at business and sometimes life science majors. 

 

I would rather wait until senior year and have him take calculus, and choose then (depending on a combination of the strength of the local school and his ability to do well on a make-or-break test) between AP and DE. He does not need the credits for precalculus or college algebra as engineering students are expected to start in calculus. If he has credit for calculus, he may be able to take a lighter first year to transition -- the transition is often brutal for engineering students. 

[klmama]

FWIW, I know young people who majored in engineering, and even those who had taken calculus in high school were required to start over with Calc 1 at the university.  Perhaps if they had taken the AP Calculus BC exam they might have been passed on to Calc 2, but I'm not sure.  In any case, they were glad to retake it, because they learned some different approaches and filled in some gaps, and it gave them an easier course for their first semester of learning at the faster college rate.

 

 

 

 

[MarkT]

I recommend:

 

11th grade

DO Precalc 

maybe one non-science / non-math DE course ( "gen ed")

 

12th grade

Fall Semester DE Calculus 1

Spring Semester DE Calculus 2 (or other math)

[ not currently on your list above - maybe

   MATH 1261 Calculus I

   MATH 1262 Calculus II  ]

[GoodGrief]

I agree with MarkT's advice as far as the math. If the precalc seems intense, DO AP Calc AB is a good course, though it would be nice to get through Calc 2 senior year.

 

If he takes SAT subject tests (I think that would be an unusual requirement for DE), make sure he preps for them. Is he going to take the SAT again? He'll probably want to get that math score up a bit, depending on where he wants to apply for engineering and how much merit aid is needed.

[Teresa in GA]

Thanks guys for the input. I hadn't thought about the lower level college math classes having "struggling students" in them. And you're right, it wouldn't do anything for him. 

 

Thanks MarkT. Great plan. We'll go with DO Precalculus then for 11th grade. I'm glad to get that settled! Any suggestions for a good introduction to college level classes that are gen ed? I don't think he's ready for English 1101, because his comp skills aren't up to par. Political Science? Computer Science? 

 

Looking into the future though, would DE Precalculus adequately prepare him to jump into DE Math 1261: Calc I for his senior year without having ever taken Calculus before? 

 

Good Grief: You're right. I went back to look at the DE requirements and it does not require SAT Subject tests. That was for admission as a freshman. 

[RootAnn]

Besides wanting to go into engineering, what interests him? What's he good at?

Any suggestions for a good introduction to college level classes that are gen ed? I don't think he's ready for English 1101, because his comp skills aren't up to par. Political Science? Computer Science? 

My math/foreign language girl is taking Intro to Psych. Dunno if that is the right introduction course for her, but it is what she picked. (I voted for Macroeconomics after Statistics didn't fit into her schedule.)

 

Check ratemyprofessor (or whatever that site is) and read about the teachers of the classes that he might find interesting. I find that they work harder for the classes that are interesting.

[kiana]

I think that DO precalc would prepare him better than DE precalc. 

 

Gen ed: I would avoid classes that have significant essays, and this varies by school. I would second RootAnn's advice to make it something that he thinks will be interesting with a professor known for being interesting. 

 

If you want something that'll transfer and apply to his degree, not be too much of a jump, and not require lots of writing, something in the social sciences is probably your best bet there. Economics is popular among engineers, but psychology, political science, or sociology should all be reasonable and should transfer well. 

[regentrude]

Thanks MarkT. Great plan. We'll go with DO Precalculus then for 11th grade. I'm glad to get that settled! Any suggestions for a good introduction to college level classes that are gen ed? I don't think he's ready for English 1101, because his comp skills aren't up to par. Political Science? Computer Science? 

 

Looking into the future though, would DE Precalculus adequately prepare him to jump into DE Math 1261: Calc I for his senior year without having ever taken Calculus before? 

 

I would go with a class of high interest.

My DD took French 2 as her first DE class in 10th grade. Foreign language classes start slowly.

My DS took Myth and Folklore as his first DE class. He also loved his astronomy class (gen ed for non majors).

 

At a run of the mill university, composition I classes do not actually require the student to already possess writing skills. Much of class will be spent on language mechanics, because the skills of incoming college freshmen are lacking. 

Edited January 26, 2018 by regentrude

[Teresa in GA]

I'm finding these comments so very helpful. Thank you so much. 

 

There's so many options I hadn't thought of. The blinders are now off! ;)

I was thinking strict core classes that would transfer to all in-state universities (i.e. Math, English Comp.) was the only way to go. Now I see that perhaps a course in something that interests him, is still another option. 

 

He really wants to go to Ga. Tech in Atlanta (where his sister is attending) and was told that he needs to be taking any and all academically rigorous classes available to him in whichever form he can get, meaning AP, DE, online or at home.  So if he has AP classes that he can take and chooses not to, that would not look good. That was why I was so hung up on getting him into a DE Math class at our local 4 year state college. Now his sister took her foreign language and English Comp. classes thru DE locally and was accepted, without ever taking a DE math or science class, although she took DO's AP Calculus class her senior year. Like all other freshman at Ga. Tech, she has struggled with her academic load, but she did say over the holidays that in hindsight, she wish she'd taken a math or science class at our local college and felt she would have been better prepared. 

 

So, how do you find a course that will transfer, apply to his degree, not be too much of a jump and not require lots of writing? How do you find interesting professors when you don't know them? 

 

His interests? Academic? Mostly he enjoys math and science. He hates reading literature and writing. History is fine. Outside or school, his interests are in scouting/high adventure, mountain biking, playing piano and video games. He did build his own gaming PC, when we refused to buy him one. 

 

Another point....he still needs to take either a foreign language or computer science. My understanding is that while he doesn't need foreign lang. to satisfy high school grad. requirements (he can substitute comp. science), he does need foreign lang. classes to satisfy the in-state universities in which he'll be applying to, as part of their core requirements.  

[MarkT]

 

He really wants to go to Ga. Tech in Atlanta (where his sister is attending) and was told that he needs to be taking any and all academically rigorous classes available to him in whichever form he can get, meaning AP, DE, online or at home.  So if he has AP classes that he can take and chooses not to, that would not look good. That was why I was so hung up on getting him into a DE Math class at our local 4 year state college. Now his sister took her foreign language and English Comp. classes thru DE locally and was accepted, without ever taking a DE math or science class, although she took DO's AP Calculus class her senior year. Like all other freshman at Ga. Tech, she has struggled with her academic load, but she did say over the holidays that in hindsight, she wish she'd taken a math or science class at our local college and felt she would have been better prepared. 

 

So, how do you find a course that will transfer, apply to his degree, not be too much of a jump and not require lots of writing? How do you find interesting professors when you don't know them? 

 

 

rules for Georgia Tech

http://admission.gatech.edu/freshman/advanced-course-credit

http://catalog.gatech.edu/academics/undergraduate/credit-tests-scores/transfer-credit/

http://www.catalog.gatech.edu/academics/undergraduate/credit-tests-scores/advanced-placement-exams/

[kiana]

For science classes you might consider chemistry as a senior. I'd avoid DE physics because non-calc-based won't count for an engineering degree and I'd prefer to have calc-based physics come after calculus. In grad school the calc 1 students who were also in physics 1 were always frustrated because their physics class was using stuff before it had been taught in calc class, so they'd just give them a list of formulas to use for derivatives while we were still working on limits. Almost all the engineering majors (as in, I didn't see any that didn't) require at least one semester of chemistry; some of them require two.

 

As far as general education, many of them require an economics class as part of the core, so that would be a good "get your feet wet" (if they're open to freshmen) class that would probably transfer (it's a very standard class) and count towards his degree requirements. They all seem to require one of 5 classes in US history or government, so one of those might be useful as well, although those tend to have a bit less math and more writing. 

 

Programming is something he really ought to have exposure to but if he does not already have some exposure I would recommend a "get your feet wet" class at home first. Many students find their first exposure a bit overwhelming. 

 

Foreign language at the CC is a possibility; it moves rather fast, but honestly even at the 4-yr I found that we spent so much time on English grammar (it's hard to explain verb conjugation when a student doesn't understand what a verb is) that it was really not challenging for someone with a decent foundation in English. I went with European languages so my word roots knowledge was also helpful. As for which language, if he doesn't have a preference, German seems to be in demand for engineers (according to the sites I read, anyway) as many companies are based in Germany. 

[frogger]

For science classes you might consider chemistry as a senior. I'd avoid DE physics because non-calc-based won't count for an engineering degree and I'd prefer to have calc-based physics come after calculus. In grad school the calc 1 students who were also in physics 1 were always frustrated because their physics class was using stuff before it had been taught in calc class, so they'd just give them a list of formulas to use for derivatives while we were still working on limits. Almost all the engineering majors (as in, I didn't see any that didn't) require at least one semester of chemistry; some of them require two.

 

 

My son had hoped to finish DO precalc in one semester and take DE Calc this semester so he could DE physics next year but that didn't happen. He is only 3/4 done with pre-calc. He can still take Calc 1 in the Fall and take 1 semester physics in the spring along with Calc 2 but he also has the option of taking a trig based Physics at the college. It isn't physics for poets but it wouldn't count for engineering. I don't mind him having to take a class twice in this particular case. I worry about leaving physics last if he has to submit applications by Christmas. The reason he didn't take it this year was because he wanted to take a calc based class so he got Biology out of the way.

 

 

Anyone, if he were your kid getting into engineering would you advise him to take DO trig based physics for high school and just focus on DE writing, Calc, and an elective or would you DE the lower level physics in the fall, or wait until spring and try for the physics for engineers? I think he may need to retake at his college anyway. Although ABET accredited our local college isn't known for being great. The money is gone and retired teachers have watched their departments be gutted as the state has no money. The main reason I'm finding DE important is for social reasons and learning to deal with college paperwork, talking with teachers, navigating social things, etc as he is on the spectrum. But I thought the closer the types of classes he would take to what he'll deal with in the future the better. If it's so easy he never has a question he won't be learning to navigate the system, look for the writing lab, etc.

[kiana]

I would not take calc-based physics I at a weaker college intending on taking physics II at a stronger college. He could take the full year of trig-based physics either from DO or the college; either would be sufficient prep for calc-based physics. I cannot comment on the relative rigor of those options; math is my field, not physics. But needing work on the social skills involving college is a definite consideration as well. 

 

Regentrude will probably answer as well and she *is* a physicist. If she doesn't, I'd ask her. 

[regentrude]

I would not take calc-based physics I at a weaker college intending on taking physics II at a stronger college. He could take the full year of trig-based physics either from DO or the college; either would be sufficient prep for calc-based physics. I cannot comment on the relative rigor of those options; math is my field, not physics. But needing work on the social skills involving college is a definite consideration as well. 

 

Regentrude will probably answer as well and she *is* a physicist. If she doesn't, I'd ask her. 

 

I agree with kiana.

 

A weak calc based physics 1 course may not prepare him for calc based physics II at a stronger university.

I would recommend that he take an algebra/trig based physics while in high school and then the complete physics sequence at the uni where he wants to get his engineering degree.

 

Same is actually true for calculus. I recommend exposure in high school and then taking the complete calc sequence at uni.

Both my kids had a rigorous calculus course in high school, and both of them started the calc sequence at their universities from calc 1 and found that beneficial.

[frogger]

I was thinking he would take the regular physics for engineers course at his school of choice regardless of which one he took here. I realize that may seem like overlap but really navigating non-content parts of class worry me more than actual content and making things a little easier for him when he is adjusting seems important to me. It sounds like average kids have enough trouble.

[frogger]

Sorry, I was posting at the same time rengentrude so I missed your post. That is helpful.

 

He is actually older too since we have the other issues so this year I thought I would use this as a bridge year. So DE the trig based physics and Calc 1 and retake them in college too sounds like a good plan. That will help him during transition time.

[luuknam]

A weak calc based physics 1 course may not prepare him for calc based physics II at a stronger university.

 

 

Aside from whether one is weak or not, iirc some unis have a slightly different sequence for what's in phys 1 and phys 2, so you can't always take 1 at one school and 2 at another (this is my memory from about a dozen years ago, when I took phys 1 at the CC during summer 1, and for medical reasons did not take phys 2 during summer 2 as intended). 

[regentrude]

Aside from whether one is weak or not, iirc some unis have a slightly different sequence for what's in phys 1 and phys 2, so you can't always take 1 at one school and 2 at another (this is my memory from about a dozen years ago, when I took phys 1 at the CC during summer 1, and for medical reasons did not take phys 2 during summer 2 as intended). 

 

The issue usually arises when the student takes physics 1 at a college that teaches intro physics as a 3 semester sequence and wants to transfer the credit to a school that teaches intro physics in 2 semesters. they usually have not covered waves and thermodynamics, and their course may be considered equivalent.

[luuknam]

The issue usually arises when the student takes physics 1 at a college that teaches intro physics as a 3 semester sequence and wants to transfer the credit to a school that teaches intro physics in 2 semesters. they usually have not covered waves and thermodynamics, and their course may be considered equivalent.

 

 

I think both schools had physics as a 2 part sequence, but one had optics(?) in phys 1 but the other had it in phys 2? It's been a long time, and I never ended up taking phys 2, but anyway, it doesn't hurt to ask the colleges involved so you can be sure. Because even if there's a transfer agreement, these things can be an issue if you only take part of a sequence at a school. 

Edited January 26, 2018 by luuknam

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I haven't seen anyone mention using DE instructors as potential sources for letters of recommendation.  Some of the schools DSS applied to specified that they wanted a recommendation from a math teacher.  Others didn't specify course, but did require recommendations from teachers (as opposed to coaches and other adults).  Senior year instructors often are not willing to write recommendations for a student until the course is completed.

 

I would also suggest you look for a copy of the math sequence for the school you're considering for DE.  We found that College Algebra meant very different things in different college systems (At one school that was the name for the first semester of pre-calculus, while at another it was a course taken well before precalc).  

[kiana]

Yes, I missed out on series, because they were taught in different parts of the calculus sequence and I did calculus at different schools, and the second one really didn't emphasize them in calc 2. So when I got to differential equations (at a third school) and she did a "review of everything you should have learned about series" I was completely lost. I mean, I caught up, but still.