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How to help students choose a career


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#1 IsabelleDW

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 11:09 AM

Hi everyone,

 

I recently discovered this great short book on Amazon to help students orient themselves towards the right career and study program in college.

Thought other people on this forum would be interested as well.  The book is called Secrets To A Great Career Choice. Highly recommend as a read.


Edited by IsabelleDW, 31 October 2017 - 12:38 PM.

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#2 aaplank

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 11:33 AM

Looks good! Thanks for the recommendation.

#3 dereksurfs

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 12:18 PM

Thanks, Isabelle. I have been looking for more resources like this recently. For only $3 its worth checking out. I used What Color Is Your Parachute? back when i was in college and it was helpful. I'm sure there are other great resources out there today.

 

Here is a great online resource - Career Exploration Program.


Edited by dereksurfs, 10 September 2017 - 12:18 PM.

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#4 MerryAtHope

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 10:00 PM

Hi everyone,

 

I recently discovered this great short book on Amazon to help students orient themselves towards the right career and study program in college.

It's written by a university professor and I'll be sharing it with my students.  Thought other people on this forum would be interested as well.  The book is called The Secrets Your Professors Won't Tell You: About Your Career Choice, by Liliya Lyubman.  it encourages students to follow their heart and their natural abilities in choosing a career.  Quite inspiring. Highly recommend as a read.

 

Is there something unique about the way it says that? That kind of seems like what a lot of resources say--can you describe how this is different?


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#5 IsabelleDW

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 12:20 AM

In this book, the author includes her personal story with regards to her career choice. The book is filled with insights, encouragement and practical tips. I found it quite different from everything else I've read. :)


Edited by IsabelleDW, 20 October 2017 - 11:45 AM.


#6 RootAnn

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 04:36 AM

My oldest knows what she likes. The trouble is, what major(s) should she pursue and what career do those interests point to? So far, I haven't been able to find something that is helpful to give a useful list for both of those. There are career interest surveys, but they don't give a corresponding major or a list of majors, but no clear path toward a job list.

(Engineering was SO much easier!!!)
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#7 8FillTheHeart

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 06:09 AM

My oldest knows what she likes. The trouble is, what major(s) should she pursue and what career do those interests point to? So far, I haven't been able to find something that is helpful to give a useful list for both of those. There are career interest surveys, but they don't give a corresponding major or a list of majors, but no clear path toward a job list.

(Engineering was SO much easier!!!)


Engineering and physics were sooooooo much easier in terms of college and envisioning their futures for themselves.

My other kids have had more of a struggle envisioning their long-term career goals. I am so happy our oldest Dd loves her career so much. It is certainly not a path she considered early in high school.
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#8 Kassia

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 07:21 AM

My oldest knows what she likes. The trouble is, what major(s) should she pursue and what career do those interests point to? So far, I haven't been able to find something that is helpful to give a useful list for both of those. There are career interest surveys, but they don't give a corresponding major or a list of majors, but no clear path toward a job list.

(Engineering was SO much easier!!!)

 

We have the same issue.  My older three sons went into engineering and it was easy.  My dd has several passions, is strong in many areas, but there is no career she is interested in.  She said one of her biggest fears is ending up with a job she doesn't want to do.  :(   


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#9 GailV

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 07:38 AM

We have the same issue.  My older three sons went into engineering and it was easy.  My dd has several passions, is strong in many areas, but there is no career she is interested in.  She said one of her biggest fears is ending up with a job she doesn't want to do.  :(   

 

We should form a club.  

 

Add to this the refrain of, "I'd get bored if I had to do that for very long,"  with the alternate verse of, "but once I'm out of school I don't want to ever go back, so I need to take all the classes now." 

 

(No interest in a gap year because that would delay being done with school.)


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#10 Lori D.

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:15 AM

My oldest knows what she likes. The trouble is, what major(s) should she pursue and what career do those interests point to? So far, I haven't been able to find something that is helpful to give a useful list for both of those. There are career interest surveys, but they don't give a corresponding major or a list of majors, but no clear path toward a job list.

(Engineering was SO much easier!!!)

 

Doing an interest inventory based on the Holland Codes leads to finding lists of occupations that match your preferred ways of working, which then lead to looking at the list of majors that match up with those occupations:

 

- take the free CA Career Zone Interest Profiler

- that gives you your 3-letter "Holland Code"

- plug your Code into the CA Career Zone Quick Assessment or NY Career Zone Assess Yourself tool

- that brings up a list of potential occupations

- click on each occupation to learn more about it, including types of college majors required

 

There are 6 interest areas with the Holland Codes (usually visualized on the points of a hexagon), and usually your 3 top preferred interest areas fall adjacent on that hexagon.

 

 

I see from your signature that she is taking Linguistics and 2 foreign languages. Some job ideas that might match up with that:

 

working abroad

- teaching/ESL

- interpreter

- journalism - foreign correspondent

- social work - in organizations that help with development of impoverished communities

- anthropology - fieldwork in a foreign culture

 

government

- U.S. civil service -- immigration, refugee support, consultant...

- foreign civil service -- embassy

- foreign language intelligence

- military - intelligence analyst, interpreter, etc.

 

media

- editing and publishing

- subtitles and voice-overs

 

travel and tourism jobs

- hotels and hospitality

- tour guides

- event bookers

- cruise ship jobs

- flight attendant

- customer service

 

international business (living overseas/using language daily)

- social media manager

- marketing

- accountant, HR personnel

 

linguistics jobs

- speech therapy (clinical sciences)

- neuro-linguistics (medicine & biology)

 

That list runs the gamut of those Holland Code interest areas, so what your DD may find most helpful is to do the interest inventory and narrow down general occupations and then look for how languages and linguistics fits specifically into some of those occupation areas.

 

Or, if your DD sees something from the job list above, you can research it specifically at the US Bureau of Labor's Occupational Outlook Handbook -- or directly through an online search to see what kind of college majors are the best prep for that job.


Edited by Lori D., 10 October 2017 - 11:15 AM.

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#11 hornblower

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:36 AM

So, I haven't read the book OP recommends but I've read a lot of Cal Newport and he argues exactly the opposite in his blog and his books (Deep Work; So Good They Can't Ignore You; How to Win at College; How to be a Straight A Student) 

The Passion Trap
The more emphasis you place on finding work you love, the more unhappy you become when you don’t love every minute of the work you have.

http://calnewport.co...life-miserable/

he has a whole series of blog posts on this topic of "Rethinking Passion" (link is in the Features listing on this page http://calnewport.com/blog/archive/

 

 


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#12 IsabelleDW

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 12:37 PM

I'm so glad we're all talking about this, as it's a real issue for kids.  It's also important to consider the everyday work environment one signs-up for when choosing a career.  A person may be interested in the work content, but if the schedule, the cubicle life, the night shifts, the daily uniform, or working with sick people is not part of a lifestyle he or she wants to have, it won't lead to career happiness.  It's good to visit potential places of work to see if they resonate with who the person is.  It's especially important because, after kids graduate, these places become their everyday life for a long long time.

 


Edited by IsabelleDW, 16 October 2017 - 09:06 AM.


#13 Lori D.

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 01:25 PM

...I've read a lot of Cal Newport and he argues exactly the opposite in his blog and his books...

The Passion Trap
The more emphasis you place on finding work you love, the more unhappy you become when you don’t love every minute of the work you have.

http://calnewport.co...life-miserable/
 

 

I recently read that article you linked, and while I totally agree with Newport about his assessment that our current work mentality has swung the pendulum too far in one direction with that over-emphasis on "finding work you love", I also think Newport is a little bit "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" (dismissing the helpful aspects of career tests), and skewing the study findings a bit in order to sensationalize (which is the basic marketing technique of sales ;) ) to make his basic point (which is valid).

 

He cites a recent study and then extrapolates:

 

The latest Conference Board survey of U.S. job satisfaction,released earlier this year, found only 45% of Americans are satisfied with their jobs. This number has been steadily decreasing from the mark of 61% recorded in 1987, the first year of the survey... Roughly 64% of workers under 25 say that they are unhappy in their jobs, the highest levels of dissatisfaction measured for any age group over the twenty-two year history of the survey.

 

 

There are MANY reasons why workers are unhappy in their jobs right now -- the economic downturn in 2007 and a slow recovery that has fundamentally changed the world of work in the U.S. What about the need of paying back student debt from spiraling costs of college -- a big reason to feel resentful of work (all you're doing is working to pay back loans) and stressed (must work more to get loan monkey off back), both of which reduce workplace joy. And what about higher expectations over the past 20-25 years of the workplace for workers to put in more hours / being paid less / reduced benefits? That has to add to worker dissatisfaction. 

 

Newport skips right over those other gigantic factors in job dissatisfaction, and uses the study results to focus on his particular ideas about disappointment about work due to over-focus on passionate job love.

 

So while I do agree with Newport that over-focus on finding/doing only work you love can lead to increased work dissatisfaction, there are other major factors in equation of increased dissatisfaction with work that really should be considered as well.

 

JMO: I see that over-emphasis of finding work you love is a reflection on a general Western cultural tendency of the past 40 years to become increasingly self-focused (1970s "me generation" anyone? ;) ) and overall moving away from ideas of outward focus -- family and community, and the self-sacrifice and other-focus that it takes to make those run smoothly.

 

In the workplace, that means understanding that NO job will be 100% only things you like to do and make you feel personally satisfied. However, what you *can* do is look at the things you don't like or don't feel passionate about in every situation -- work, family, community, etc. -- as an opportunity to grow/learn, find new ways of dealing with people and situations, exercise perseverance, become more flexible and accepting in mindset, etc. There's where I do agree with Newport -- that passion grows as you find ways to make the most out of your job (or any situation), rather than focusing on passion to help you find a job match.

 

 

I'm probably speaking out of personal experience, as I found that taking the combination of an interest inventory (Holland Codes) + personality test (Meyers-Briggs) + work values assessment really helped me understand how to look at ANY occupation and see what aspects were going to fit well for me and what aspects were going to be much more difficult or stressful for me, so that I could determine if the pluses outweighed the minuses for thinking about that occupation. The testing also helped me understand what kinds of things are of prime importance to *me*, so that if I'm not getting those needs filled through a job, I can find ways of incorporating those needs outside of a job, rather than just chucking the job immediately because of not feeling "passionate" about it.

 

Knowing myself through the testing helps to takes the pressure off of having the expectation that "the job has to perfectly fit my passion" -- because many different types of jobs in all different fields can be a good fit. And it also helps me realize that there *will* be aspects of each of those different jobs that are not a perfect fit, so I can go into whatever job with a realistic perspective, and even come up with strategies for positively dealing with the "not-a-fit" aspects of the job.


Edited by Lori D., 10 October 2017 - 01:34 PM.

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#14 GailV

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 03:58 PM

I've been a big fan of Cal Newport, but I do think he's going a bit overboard in his effort to swing the pendulum back from the "do what you love, the money will follow" mindset.  I really appreciate Lori D's post about it -- much more articulate than I would be!

 

I just finished Daniel Gilbert's Stumbling on Happiness, and am now pondering how the science of happiness fits in with all of this.

 

 


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#15 GailV

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 04:01 PM

 I appreciated the practical advice of visiting potential places of work to see if they resonate with you.  I can't agree more because after kids graduate, these places become their everyday life for a long long time.

 

 

Yeah, I wanted to do that, and then realized that HIPAA rules that out in many cases that were of interest to DD.



#16 MerryAtHope

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 04:53 PM

Is there such a thing as a list of careers by work-style preferences? 

 

In this book, the author includes her personal story, going back to when she was younger and had to choose between medicine and business. The book is filled with insights, encouragement and practical tips. I found it quite different from everything else I've read. :)

 

Thanks. I'd love to hear more about how it's different. I only wish it could be as easy for my oldest as trying to choose between two solid career interests like that! Then it would totally make sense to visit various workplaces and explore various types of jobs to see what you might be best suited for and to get a realistic picture of what the work is like. Where do you start with visiting workplaces (which I've also heard about doing from many other sources) if there isn't some interest you're following up on though? 

 

Even a liberal arts student with some kind of strong interest in some area like writing, speaking, researching, helping others or etc... can again hone in on and fine suitable career paths to explore. I just can't figure out how to help a liberal arts type student who can't latch on to an area of interest or a definable skill. 

 

 

We have the same issue.  My older three sons went into engineering and it was easy.  My dd has several passions, is strong in many areas, but there is no career she is interested in.  She said one of her biggest fears is ending up with a job she doesn't want to do.  :(   

 

That's one of my son's fears too--being "stuck" doing something he "hates." He'd like to just not hate it (and is fine leaving "passions" in the "hobby" category.) That's what I don't get about the idea of divorcing the process completely from interests--how can you not look at interests (which to me is not just about "content" but also about "work style" and so on)? But I agree with what Lori said about the self-centered nature of expecting to just follow passions and thinking you'll love every minute of a job (that's unrealistic marketing we've been sold!)

 

My son has interests that don't mesh well with each other and that don't really point to any type of career. He has Holland Codes and Myers Briggs that are opposites. He's better at math than writing but would much rather have to write than use math skills if he had to choose (his aptitude testing plus Holland Codes put "Accountant" at the top of his list, which he would hate personality-wise). It really just seems like an impossible (and highly discouraging) task to try to figure out where to go next in this process. 

 

Will have to come back to this thread later and try to do some more reading! 

 

 


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#17 RootAnn

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 05:36 PM

Lori D - It was your post with all the links to things like this that got me started. The CA CZ Interest Profiler was funny for her, but not really helpful because many of things that interested her were things she has no aptitude for. (They said to not pay attention to whether you could do it or not, just if it interests you. Yeah, she'd totally love to be able to draw like her sister or write movie scripts that are awesome. Not going to happen.) The jobs it pulled up for her were almost all ones that don't require a college degree. (The only one that did was "City and Regional Planning Aide." Her personality would lead to big problems in this job!) The other links (different thread) didn't get to specific jobs - just "clusters" or "skills." I wish there was a magic button!

 

I see from your signature that she is taking Linguistics and 2 foreign languages. Some job ideas that might match up with that:

 

Well, she's taking linguistics to see if she'd like to major in it in college. Good to know now that she's not interested. She loves learning languages and she loves math. She hates writing and doesn't care to interact much with people (esp. teaching or working with crowds), so lots of the jobs & majors are a bust. She's a tough case!

 

He's better at math than writing but would much rather have to write than use math skills if he had to choose (his aptitude testing plus Holland Codes put "Accountant" at the top of his list, which he would hate personality-wise). It really just seems like an impossible (and highly discouraging) task to try to figure out where to go next in this process. 

:grouphug:  DD's test scores show she's really good at the reading/English part of things, but she adores math. She loves to read, but hates to write. Most assume if you are good at reading, you're good at writing. Not always true!

 

So, Merry, I agree it is difficult to figure out where to go next!!


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#18 Lori D.

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 06:20 PM

Is there such a thing as a list of careers by work-style preferences? 

 

 

Thanks. I'd love to hear more about how it's different. I only wish it could be as easy for my oldest as trying to choose between two solid career interests like that! Then it would totally make sense to visit various workplaces and explore various types of jobs to see what you might be best suited for and to get a realistic picture of what the work is like. Where do you start with visiting workplaces (which I've also heard about doing from many other sources) if there isn't some interest you're following up on though? 

 

Even a liberal arts student with some kind of strong interest in some area like writing, speaking, researching, helping others or etc... can again hone in on and fine suitable career paths to explore. I just can't figure out how to help a liberal arts type student who can't latch on to an area of interest or a definable skill. 

 

 

 

That's one of my son's fears too--being "stuck" doing something he "hates." He'd like to just not hate it (and is fine leaving "passions" in the "hobby" category.) That's what I don't get about the idea of divorcing the process completely from interests--how can you not look at interests (which to me is not just about "content" but also about "work style" and so on)? But I agree with what Lori said about the self-centered nature of expecting to just follow passions and thinking you'll love every minute of a job (that's unrealistic marketing we've been sold!)

 

My son has interests that don't mesh well with each other and that don't really point to any type of career. He has Holland Codes and Myers Briggs that are opposites. He's better at math than writing but would much rather have to write than use math skills if he had to choose (his aptitude testing plus Holland Codes put "Accountant" at the top of his list, which he would hate personality-wise). It really just seems like an impossible (and highly discouraging) task to try to figure out where to go next in this process. 

 

Will have to come back to this thread later and try to do some more reading! 

 

Well, when I search for "list of careers by work-style preferences", it comes up with the 6 Holland Code interest areas. Wikipedia does have a nice list for each individual interest area, so that might be one things to look at. Accountant is listed under C (Conventional) -- other occupations under C include:

 

Archivist/Librarian

Chemist

Computer Engineering/Computer Science

Engineer

Statistician

Technical Writer

Web Developer

 

 

So, what did you mean by "work-style preference"? If you mean, "what I prefer to work with: people, things, data, or ideas," then that is a formalized "thing" (lol). Below is the best I can do with no arrow heads pointing up or down to recreate the work preference chart, of which do you prefer to work with:

 

Things can be big machines to small hand tools to art/music/photograph/etc implements to plants or animals.

People can mean service industry to teaching to performing to counseling to sales to politics.

Data means facts and figures, charts of info, inspection checklists, statistics, record keeping and files, budgets, computer programming.

Ideas means research, experimentation, architecture, designing, planning, marketing strategies, etc.

 

The work preference chart is designed as two intersecting continuums, so the closer you would place a mark on the things/people continuum to "things" that hopefully also corresponds with that you would much less like to work with "people" -- similarly for the data/ideas continuum. Ultimately, the goal is place one mark in the quadrants made by the two continuums that represents the overall preference on all 4 preferences. Example:

 

...........things

              |

data <-------> ideas

              |    x

..........people

 

A lot of times, that chart is in the center of a Holland Code hexagon, so then you can also narrow down preference between 2 of the 6 interest areas.

 

Even further, you can check out the Career Clusters approach, and some of the Career Cluster circular pie graph includes the Holland Code hexagon in the center, and the work preference intersecting arrows in the very center, so you can combine all your test results on one chart.

- Career Cluster explanation

- Career Cluster free interest survey

- Career Cluster 16 clusters and 70 pathways chart

 

You might try a Venn-Diagram type of approach -- list any jobs of interest that fit DS's Myers-Briggs results; then any jobs of interest that fit DS's Holland Code results (and try mixing the order for more results -- if he came out as R-C-S, then see what occupations come up with comes up as R-S-C, C-R-S, C-S-R, S-R-C and S-C-R). And add in any other occupations that match up with DS's expressed interests, or fit DS's top 5 work values. Do any occupations fall in the overlap area of the Venn-Diagram? Those might be starting places for research.

 

And, it may just take actual working and trial-and-error for a few years to allow your DS to continue to mature, and to figure out what he likes/doesn't like, and what he feels he could do long-term.

 

Just brainstorming... :) Warmest regards, Lori D.


Edited by Lori D., 10 October 2017 - 06:42 PM.

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#19 Lori D.

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 06:35 PM

...The CA CZ Interest Profiler was funny for her, but not really helpful because many of things that interested her were things she has no aptitude for...

 

...She loves learning languages and she loves math. She hates writing and doesn't care to interact much with people (esp. teaching or working with crowds), so lots of the jobs & majors are a bust. She's a tough case!

 

Totally understandable. :) I do these tests with the students in our homeschool group (they LOVE these things!), but I really think for many students under age 20, they really are not at all accurate, because students don't have very many real-life experiences to draw on, and really don't know what is out there. ;)

 

At your DD's age, getting out and getting experiences through extracurriculars, volunteering, summer programs, and working jobs may be the best thing for her. Often, we are inspired to look at an occupation we never would have thought of through an experience, or through hearing about it from someone else -- and not through formal Career Exploration at all. :)

 

 

PS

Also, just because a student is interested in something, doesn't mean the student is interested in doing it as a JOB. Your DD's interest in Foreign Languages may just be that -- fun hobby, or something that opens the door to travel and have some cool adventures, or watch movies without subtitles (lol). And maybe, the job she would be a good fit for and would enjoy is something totally unrelated to any of her school subject interests -- like, Environmental Researcher or Scientist, Cartographer, Computer Cyber Security, Machinist...


Edited by Lori D., 10 October 2017 - 06:53 PM.

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#20 Kassia

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 06:46 PM

 

 

 

Well, she's taking linguistics to see if she'd like to major in it in college. Good to know now that she's not interested. She loves learning languages and she loves math. She hates writing and doesn't care to interact much with people (esp. teaching or working with crowds), so lots of the jobs & majors are a bust. She's a tough case!

 

:grouphug:  DD's test scores show she's really good at the reading/English part of things, but she adores math. She loves to read, but hates to write. Most assume if you are good at reading, you're good at writing. Not always true!

 

So, Merry, I agree it is difficult to figure out where to go next!!

 

It is so difficult!  My dd is very frustrated because she's a planner and wants to know what her major will be.  She's very much like your dd in the sense that she is passionate about languages, loves math, and doesn't want to interact much with people (she said she wants to teach Spanish, but doesn't want to be a teacher  :p ).  She is also a very strong writer.  She just doesn't know what to do with these strengths and interests.  


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#21 MerryAtHope

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 07:49 PM

 (she said she wants to teach Spanish, but doesn't want to be a teacher  :p ).  

 

You know, it's good when little gems like this come out and make us laugh in the midst of the frustration!


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#22 MerryAtHope

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:24 PM

So, I haven't read the book OP recommends but I've read a lot of Cal Newport and he argues exactly the opposite in his blog and his books (Deep Work; So Good They Can't Ignore You; How to Win at College; How to be a Straight A Student) 

The Passion Trap
The more emphasis you place on finding work you love, the more unhappy you become when you don’t love every minute of the work you have.

http://calnewport.co...life-miserable/

he has a whole series of blog posts on this topic of "Rethinking Passion" (link is in the Features listing on this page http://calnewport.com/blog/archive/

 

I do like how he concludes this article: "There seems to be something deeply satisfying about turning your focus from what the world can offer you and onto what you can offer the world. This craftsman mindset might provide an effective and meaningful alternative to the passion mindset (i.e., worrying whether a job is your true calling) when navigating your career."

 

I wonder if people mean something different by passion than I do though, because in my mind, it still all starts with some kind of interest (the example in the article about the guy playing guitar--obviously he started down that track because it was his interest. If he hated guitar, he wouldn't be playing.) I get that we enjoy what we can do well--but how do you start deciding what you want to pursue to do well if not by looking at your interests and skills? And if you don't have solid, well-defined interests (like guitar, medicine, business, etc...), what does that leave you with pursuing? Don't you have to start somewhere? 

 

I feel like I must have a disconnect in my mind somewhere when people start to talk about this!


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#23 hornblower

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:39 PM

 Don't you have to start somewhere? 

 

I feel like I must have a disconnect in my mind somewhere when people start to talk about this!

 

 

I think you're right... and he does address this. 

for ex in one of his posts he says: "I’m not against feeling passionate about your work — in fact, I think this is a fantastic goal. But from my experience studying this issue, passion is not something that you discover and then match a job to; it is, instead, something that grows over time along with your skills.

 

In other words, working right trumps finding the right work.

 

from http://calnewport.co...lege-graduates/

 

I wonder if he's trying to say that we sometimes do the order wrong. I think he's saying find something you are interested in, and don't mind doing, then become great at it, and the joy will come. 

 

 

I think he's responding to something he's seen when talking to undergrads - people who are stuck waiting for something to really be passionate about and he seems to be saying just do something and stick with it and be good at it. 

Obviously he's putting a high value on 'success' and for him, it seems the success is a self reinforcing loop which leads to feeling good about the endeavour. 

But he's a theoretical computer scientist - sometimes I don't think he thinks quite like all the rest of us  :laugh:


Edited by hornblower, 10 October 2017 - 09:40 PM.

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#24 MerryAtHope

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:21 PM

I think you're right... and he does address this. 

for ex in one of his posts he says: "I’m not against feeling passionate about your work — in fact, I think this is a fantastic goal. But from my experience studying this issue, passion is not something that you discover and then match a job to; it is, instead, something that grows over time along with your skills.

 

In other words, working right trumps finding the right work.

 

from http://calnewport.co...lege-graduates/

 

I wonder if he's trying to say that we sometimes do the order wrong. I think he's saying find something you are interested in, and don't mind doing, then become great at it, and the joy will come. 

 

 

I think he's responding to something he's seen when talking to undergrads - people who are stuck waiting for something to really be passionate about and he seems to be saying just do something and stick with it and be good at it. 

Obviously he's putting a high value on 'success' and for him, it seems the success is a self reinforcing loop which leads to feeling good about the endeavour. 

But he's a theoretical computer scientist - sometimes I don't think he thinks quite like all the rest of us  :laugh:

 

 

Maybe in my mind I insert the word interest where others say passion. Because...I do think interest is something you discover and then match either a job, a "cluster" of jobs, or a set of skills to. My jobs have been several and varied but with themes in common that started with an interest (which actually was also a passion, and which I pursued despite a lack of prospects and despite forebodings and warnings received). 

 

I feel like when they say don't follow a passion they're saying throw a dart at endless possibilities as your method of choice instead. 

 

I also feel...maybe we're all talking about different parts of the process. Those kinds of quotes seem to talk about how to be fulfilled once you have chosen a field to pursue--not how to actually choose that field.

 

I want to know how to actually choose the field. I've got interests/passions. I've got the dart method (lol!). What else? 

 

I feel like I'm being difficult. I'm really not trying to be! 

 

I'm all in with the idea of planning on work being hard and mundane and not always fun as you work towards proficiency so that you'll enjoy it and have something to give etc...

 

I get that people don't always enjoy practicing a craft. OTOH--if they hate it all the time (not just moments or aspects), they aren't likely to continue either. I think it takes both some passion and that "craftsman mindset" he talks about. 

 

I think Lori hit on something very significant though when she talked about passion being self-centered (what can I get from the world) rather than others centered (what can I give to the world). I think any job can be fulfilling, even if the particular task isn't stellar or all that exciting--if you see that you have something to give or share that has value to others.


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#25 Lori D.

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:46 PM

Yes! Merry and Hornblower, that's the way I was thinking of all of this. Great clarifications and developing the discussion, ladies!  :)



#26 IsabelleDW

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 08:41 AM

I believe that people who pursue their passion and are fulfilled can contribute much more to the world than if they were doing it purely out of service to others, in a "self-sacrifice" type of mode.  I think it's right to begin with a "self-centred" approach, which means knowing your strengths, interests and your inner talents and then figuring out how to offer them in a way that others can benefit.  Only passion and continuous self-expression can sustain someone doing something for a long period of time.  Benefitting others is a natural outcome of someone authentically applying themselves to the fullest in the activity they enjoy and master. That's just my opinion and experience. Passion definitely matters in achieving happiness.


Edited by IsabelleDW, 31 October 2017 - 12:40 PM.


#27 hornblower

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:39 PM

In this book, the author includes her personal story, going back to when she was younger and had to choose between medicine and business. The book is filled with insights, encouragement and practical tips. I found it quite different from everything else I've read. :)


you know what, my spidey senses were going off on this entire thread and now I think I know why. We're being marketed to. 

Compare the quote above explaining supposedly author's story, and this post by "IsabelleD" 

 

"How to choose the right career?

Hi everyone,
I was so confused as to what career to choose because I was in pre-med which was really hard to get into but I didn't like it.  My parents were driving me crazy insisting that I stay in pre-med.  Then I discovered this amazing short book on Amazon that helped me a lot.  It's so inspiring that I had to share it with those of you who are undecided about what study program/career to choose.  The book is called The Secrets Your Professors Won't Tell You: About Your Career Choice, by Liliya Lyubman.  I'm usually not a big reader but this one opened my eyes to many things.  It tells you that it pays to follow your heart in the end when choosing a study program and a career.  If you are confused, read this book!"

"https://www.topunive...e-right-career"

& another: 

https://yconic.com/d...SnOjEp6Mh/25/25


how...coincidental.... 


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#28 RootAnn

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 06:07 PM

I figured as much, but it has turned into something more helpful. I honestly just ignored the book in the first post.  :driving:


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#29 IsabelleDW

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 08:40 PM

I found the book useful and so did other people based on reviews. The book is a great tool and contributes to finding a solution to the issue we're discussing. I stand by my recommendation. Whether or not you choose to benefit from the book, it's there to help.


Edited by IsabelleDW, 31 October 2017 - 12:36 PM.


#30 MerryAtHope

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 01:18 AM

you know what, my spidey senses were going off on this entire thread and now I think I know why. We're being marketed to. 

 

I kind of thought so when I read such an enriching description as "The book is filled with insights, encouragement and practical tips." But there's always hope, LOL! Since not one unique insight or practical tip has been offered up as any kind of evidence (nor is there any in the description on Amazon), I remain unconvinced it's worth my time or money! (I do hate ads that promise something and then you just have to keep scrolling and reading more promises but never get any actual CONTENT that lets you evaluate whether the product is actually worth it!)

 

I should have looked at the post count. It's usually telling.

 

I agree, the discussion has been helpful (because of the rabbit trails!)


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