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Non-violent intervention


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What's with the ads?

#1 Bluegoat

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 01:05 PM

Has anyone done one of these courses?

 

I am looking at doing one, they are required to work as classroom assistants here, but I was totally shocked by the cost - around $1500 for a two day course!  I can't see anything that gives any indication why it should be so expensive.

 

The company that runs these seems to run them all over Canada and the US, and it seems like they must be raking in the money!


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#2 QueenCat

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 01:23 PM

Wow, the counties around here provide those classes for assistants. They do them every summer before school starts, and a few times during the year for new hires. The assistants don't pay.


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#3 Bluegoat

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 01:28 PM

Wow, the counties around here provide those classes for assistants. They do them every summer before school starts, and a few times during the year for new hires. The assistants don't pay.

 

It's a prerequisite to getting hired here.  And if you do something like a youth services diploma program you have to do it too as part of the course, and pay separately.


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#4 QueenCat

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 01:34 PM

It's a prerequisite to getting hired here.  And if you do something like a youth services diploma program you have to do it too as part of the course, and pay separately.

 

Ouch. I don't know if it's county by county or what. I thought you live in the same state as me. If I'm right, it's not a state thing (as to who pays).


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#5 TeenagerMom

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 01:36 PM

I used to have to stay certified.  My employer used CPI trained instructors.  You might check with your local mental health facilities to see if they have anyone who offers courses.


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#6 Gentlemommy

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 08:13 PM

We have to take something like it every year for foster care, but it is free.
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#7 Daria

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 08:33 PM

I used to be a CPI trained instructor.  I took the 4 day version of the course you're talking about, and my employer paid.  But then I could offer the course to anyone affiliated with my employer.  We only had to pay for their workbook, which came with certification.

 

My employer had me teach the course after hiring and people were paid, but I know places that required it between the offer and the start date.  I've never heard of a program that required someone to take the course through CPI.  Are you sure about that?


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#8 Lecka

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 09:50 PM

Where we used to live they had people in the district trained in a different system (I want to say Mandt) and then for classroom assistants it was on the clock for them to attend mandatory training from the person in the school district. They might do it before school started or they might do it one day a week after school for several weeks.

I can't imagine them expecting a classroom assistant to pay out of pocket.

I hope you can get it through the school district, or by some other local group, who has somebody on staff who can offer the trainings. Like -- somebody got sent to be certified to train and now they can train others.
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#9 StephanieZ

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 10:18 PM

That's utterly insane. Have you called the school/employer/HR people and made sure they don't offer it somewhere cheap or free? 

 

To require a $1500 2 day course for a teaching assistant job is deranged. DH is vet, and the *most expensive* continuing ed courses he has taken are 700-1000 per day. Those are for wet-lab courses in things like ultrasound or dentistry . . . things that use $$$100,000s in equipment in million dollar facilities and are taught by a fleet of highly trained and highly paid experts (i.e., the staff boarded veterinary dentists that make 200k-300k a year) . . . I've never even heard of a veterinary CE course that is more expensive than 700-1000 per day. Ever, and I've looked at dozens of courses. 

 

That's a big huge scam, IMHO. 


Edited by StephanieZ, 10 August 2017 - 10:19 PM.

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#10 Carrie12345

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 06:12 AM

So weird that you bring it up now! My mom recommended it to me when I mentioned the high special needs population of our co-op. I, too, was shocked when I looked it up the other day. (Hers was paid for by her employer.)
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#11 Carrie12345

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 06:15 AM

I used to be a CPI trained instructor. I took the 4 day version of the course you're talking about, and my employer paid. But then I could offer the course to anyone affiliated with my employer. We only had to pay for their workbook, which came with certification.

My employer had me teach the course after hiring and people were paid, but I know places that required it between the offer and the start date. I've never heard of a program that required someone to take the course through CPI. Are you sure about that?


I was kind of considering doing that in the future. (The 4 day came to $2,XXX.) I was wondering if instructors are allowed to set their own fees to bring more affordable training to an area.
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#12 Lecka

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 06:47 AM

I think a lot of employers pay for their own instructor and then they don't have to pay anymore as long as that person works for them. They just have to schedule the trainings. I would wonder how many people would pay when it wasn't paid by their employer.

Also they might be having some new people and some refreshers when they have their training. It might be just an annual staff training plus maybe through the year for new hires.

Also some people tend to work in the same field and used to work somewhere where they got the training, even if they're not current.

Anyway I would be surprised if there was a market.

Edit: especially if you only had the class.

If you have a lot of experience with kids with behavior challenges and could do parent training or talk about how to handle behavior issues with parents, then that would be different.

But these trainings I think are pretty small in the scheme of things, they are just to prevent getting into unsafe practices and try to do de-escalation. It is important but it is just one tiny bit of what I think would be expected as far as training and experience.

Especially if you did the training but you don't have experience.

I think frankly these trainings are good and everything, but also CYA for people to say "we did the training" so they can show "hey we aren't mean people, you can trust us."

I think there is probably that level of trust already with things you are involved with.

And if you have incidents truthfully there is a lot more to be done than just have a training. Like I would think you would need to re-structure everything you do/provide around reducing/eliminating behavior issues. Because if you have incidents to the point you need training, I think that is the category you are moving toward.

But ime my exposure is only where there are actual safety risks for children and staff. I don't have exposure to it when it is more general. So I think -- if you are getting into stuff where there are actual safety risks, then you need to be on your A game way beyond just a crisis training program. I would not think that was the only component needed At All.

But anyway -- there could be a lot more use, and I am just not seeing it from my little corner! If I heard there was more use I would believe it; I just don't know of it right now.

Edited by Lecka, 11 August 2017 - 07:02 AM.


#13 Bluegoat

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 06:49 AM

It may be that someone offers it locally more cheaply -I can't seem to find anyone though that is active now.  References elsewhere keep pointing me to the institute.  The community college might have more options though since many of their diploma programs require it.

 

It seems that for people who are already employed - say in a hospital - if they need to update, the organization will pay - usually that seem to set up a series f classes.  But for someone who is looking to be hired, they seem to want the certification up front.

 

I guess its the same in principle with any other job that wants you to pay for training courses before thy hire you.  It was the $$ aspect that really shocked me - I would be willing to pay $1000 for a year long certification.  But, two days!  



#14 Lecka

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:07 AM

I wonder if people are off for the summer? At schools I think it might be offered in the Fall for new hires. That is how it was where we used to live.

I also wonder if you get hired and then they pay for you to attend the training before you start work, but they don't want it to be that they pay you to attend the training.

Like -- if you are hired, maybe they are paying you an hourly wage while you attend the training.

If you aren't hired, you don't pay for the training, but you aren't paid while you attend the training.

That would make a lot of sense to me.

Edit: I mean the wording might really mean: we hire you, then we schedule a training, you have to attend the training on your own time, before you start working.

I think that is how it was where I used to live for schools. And then if they are able to hire everyone they need and they already have the training, they don't have to schedule a training.

But most people don't so the schedule a training.

Also it can mean you have to be willing to do the training for that position (as opposed to not wanting to do it) and then you can be hired and start to work, but have to complete the training within 6 months, or something like that.

This is more what I'm familiar with. But only living in one place, so I don't know how common that is.

Edited by Lecka, 11 August 2017 - 07:11 AM.


#15 Bluegoat

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:08 AM

I wonder if people are off for the summer? At schools I think it might be offered in the Fall for new hires. That is how it was where we used to live.

I also wonder if you get hired and then they pay for you to attend the training before you start work, but they don't want it to be that they pay you to attend the training.

Like -- if you are hired, maybe they are paying you an hourly wage while you attend the training.

If you aren't hired, you don't pay for the training, but you aren't paid while you attend the training.

That would make a lot of sense to me.

 

No, I don't think so - it's listed as a requirement for being hired as an classroom/education assistant.



#16 Lecka

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:13 AM

I think call the school and ask.

If they really have a pool of applicants who already have the training; then okay.

It can be a proxy for experience.

But I would be surprised.

Maybe you could work as an aide to get the training for free?
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#17 Lecka

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:21 AM

If your plan B is work as an aide and they offer it free to aides, maybe think of that?

I would want to know you would get the job before paying for the training.

Maybe they can hire you can then you pay, if you really are going to have to pay out of pocket.

But if they expect you to have already had the kind of job where you would have the training, I would wait and see.
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#18 Bluegoat

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:47 AM

I don't think they offer it free to classroom volunteers.

 

I could call the school board and ask - one doesn't apply to jobs here directly at the school.  I'm not really looking this year though - I'm considering work a few years down the line, so I was hoping to see what they wanted for the classroom assistants. 



#19 Daria

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 02:53 PM

I was kind of considering doing that in the future. (The 4 day came to $2,XXX.) I was wondering if instructors are allowed to set their own fees to bring more affordable training to an area.


No, once you are certified you can only offer training to people within your organization, and you can't charge for it.
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#20 Daria

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 02:56 PM

I was kind of considering doing that in the future. (The 4 day came to $2,XXX.) I was wondering if instructors are allowed to set their own fees to bring more affordable training to an area.


No, once you are certified you can only offer training to people within your organization, and you can't charge for it.
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#21 Carrie12345

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 04:29 AM

No, once you are certified you can only offer training to people within your organization, and you can't charge for it.


Thank you for sharing.

That makes me even more upset that a school would require applicants to take the course OOP. They should have a certified trainer and be providing the program for new hires.
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#22 SpecialClassical

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 05:02 AM

Around here a teaching assistant job would not pay enough to motivate anyone to spend that much. That's crazy. My SIL is a reading specialist assistant and she makes a very low wage despite an associates degree and years of dedication and experience.
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#23 Lecka

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 06:38 AM

I think it is crazy, too.

To try to be more clear, when I say "aide" I mean a paid aide. I don't know what all the terms mean, but sometimes to be called a "para," or a "paraprofessional." I have seen "parapro" in print.

But in person I have only heard "aide," "para," or "1:1." Said "one on one" or "one one."

So someone might say "your son's one-one" and they mean his aide or his para.

These are (unfortunately!!!!!) such low-paying jobs that it would be insanity for someone to pay out-of-pocket.

Where I lived before, as far as I know, it was not like everybody was getting crisis intervention training. Only people who would be working with kids who would need to have this training would receive it to the point of getting certified. Now other people I'm sure had information, but many many aides who had different jobs within the school I do not believe had crisis intervention training, because they weren't expected to need it. Because if kids were likely to need someone with that training they would have a different setting or an aide with them who did have the training. That was my impression at least.

Where I live now, in a self-contained classroom there is a lead teacher, and assistant teacher, and aides.

The assistant teacher job is a higher job than an aide job. But I think the assistant teacher may start as an aide and then get a promotion to assistant teacher. I am not really sure on that at all, but I have assumed that.

That is why I thought maybe they hire aides, give them free training, and then hire from people with aide experience to hire a teacher's assistant.

There were some teacher's assistant in regular classrooms where it is surprising to me that they would need crisis intervention certification, because it is not something that is generally needed ime, it might be needed for some openings with the title, but not other openings with the same title. And the way job openings are listed is weird ok the websites sometimes.

Also these can be harder positions to hire so maybe they are always on the job website, but in a month there will be other openings for the same job title but will have different requirements because it is for a classroom aide or assistant and the specific job is not one where anybody needs the training.

Carrie -- I am far from having a certification. But as a parent there can be opportunities for a parent to speak with someone who is certified and learn about strategies for their child. There can also be opportunities for parents to attend workshops or seminars or something. There can also be internet-based trainings.

Nothing that would lead to a certification, but stuff that would be helpful to a parent who needed to have some knowledge of crisis intervention, I hope is available.

I have got a lot of information about de-escalation techniques and successful transitioning. Transitioning was probably always hardest for my son, so I know the most about it.

There is also a side issue which is an over-reliance on "seclusion and restraint" which is something you can google. I don't know what programs are just glorified "safe restraint" programs where they are having kids "safely restrained" but aren't teaching holistic methods and preventive methods and how to structure the environment and how to identify and teach skills that kids needs to learn in order to have an easier time in life and not get into bad situations.

I would have some serious radar go up if training seemed like it was focused on "safe restraint" and dragging kids into seclusion rooms in a "safe" manner.

I am more comfortable when they have the training as a last resort that no one wants to use, but the focus is more on every other positive and preventive method, and having kids get he help they need.

I think for the most part if it is getting into this area, parents really need to work with someone who has a 4-year degree in a related field plus extensive additional training and experience, or else a masters degree. There is a really wide area where the most helpful interventions for a particular child can come from.

So for me -- I had it identified for me that I needed to focus most on communication (especially the ability to express wants and needs) and transitions.

But for another child maybe other areas are identified.

And for a limited-time training where -- probably it takes some time to cover "safe restraints" then I don't know how they are also going to cover communication needs and transitions, plus all the other things that would be needed for a professional.

It is pretty disturbing as -- as a parent I believe it is traumatizing to children to be restrained and I don't care if they aren't going to choke to death because "oh we have trained them not to strangle children to death." I also believe situations should be prevented in the first place or de-escalated.

So I think -- investigate the school district like you were a parent.

You don't want to work somewhere and find out that they are a district that does not bother to do effective behavior interventions and so you are stuck with dragging kids to seclusion rooms. That is a BAD system, but people who work as aides probably don't know any better because they don't have the experience to realize it is bad.
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#24 Lecka

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 06:47 AM

I am going to say more about the hiring for the district we used to live in.... for aides..... individual teachers (for resource rooms at least) would hire for their programs. So someone might think they were applying for a more generic aide job, and then go, and then find out "wow this isn't the job I want." And then that teacher would help the applicant to apply to the "right job." And often call another teacher in the district to say "I have a good candidate for you who knows a lot about biology" and then (for example) that person works with high school kids as more of a tutor (but with the same job title as someone with a totally different job). It can take just a phone call from one teacher to the other teacher.

But if you ever hear parents complain about how their school districts' website is very poor, this applies to the job posting part, too. So I think either keep looking at it periodically or see if you can talk to someone who has worked in the school district and could tell you more about it.
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#25 Lanny

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 07:48 AM

Do not pay for that course yourself.  If your employer or potential employer wants you to take that course, let them pay for it.  Does your local CC offer that course?   That's a lot of money...


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#26 Bluegoat

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 08:08 AM

Its all very well to say "let them pay for it" but that simply means not getting those jobs.  Which might be the right choice, but it isn't like you can get the job and demand they pay.

 

It's not an odd requirement, most classroom assistants here are assigned to a special needs student in a regular classroom, and it can very often mean dealing with a child who can have extreme behaviours.  

 

I had wondered if there was something unusual about the training that would account for that kind of cost, but it doesn't sound like it.  My suspicion is that it is a private company that has something of a monopoly, and in fact sets out what is required for the certification.



#27 Daria

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 03:12 PM

One of the things I find most weird about this is that the CPI course (I'm assuming it's CPI since their full name starts with the word "nonviolent . . .") is designed so that when you teach it back at your workplace you're including information that's relevant.

 

So, for example, there's a place in the CPI course where you tell people to get help (e.g. if the child or adult is exhibiting X behaviors, now's the time to make sure that you're not alone in a room with them).  When I took the certification course, which I've taken multiple times now, they tell you to insert information about your particular place of employment.  

 

So, I didn't say "at this stage get help".  I say "At this stage, reach out to one of the people on this list, all of whom are non-teaching staff with training".    Henry, you're going to be on the third floor of building A.  Mary (the social worker) has an office on that floor.  She'll have the walkie talkie  so sending a student runner to Mary is probably the right thing.  Tell them to use the phrase "and it's urgent", so she knows you can't wait.    

 

Or, I'll say "Many of our kids whose English is still developing, will lose some of the language fluency when they're upset, bringing in a Spanish speaker might help.  If you're in Building B, these 9 people speak Spanish."  

 

Or, if this comes up during parent teacher conferences, here's the code phrase we use to get someone in your classroom immediately . . . 

 

I might also pull you aside and say "You've got Joey in your class, so let's spend a few extra minutes practicing the hair pull release, because that's likely to be an issue for you.  He consistently grabs with his left, so let's also talk about some positioning strategies that will let you get close enough to support him and protect your hair from his left hand".  

 

I should also note that I share all of Lecka's concerns about restraint, and even more so about seclusion.  One thing I really like about CPI is that it's a two day course, and the entire first day is about how to avoid escalating incidents to the point where you need to touch someone without their consent.  As a trainer, we provide that first day to everyone, and then only choose people for day 2 who exhibit the right attitudes and understand and accept the idea that restraint is only a solution when someone's behavior is presenting an immediate safety concern that's greater than the substantial safety concerns associated with restraint, and when there's no other way to address it.  


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#28 Lecka

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 06:16 PM

Ime I don't think that many special needs students need someone who has been trained in safe restraints. I don't think that many special needs students are at risk for behavior that would reasonably lead to them needing to be restrained.

It is honestly odd to me and makes me wonder if they do enough of every other thing that is good to do.

In a well run program it should be extremely rare for this to be needed. And you should have mega support from your lead teacher.

Daria, I am glad to hear more about the training. It sounds good. It is food for thought that you are more concerned (or also very concerned) about seclusion. I am going to keep that in mind.

Edited by Lecka, 12 August 2017 - 06:17 PM.

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#29 Daria

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 07:57 PM

Ime I don't think that many special needs students need someone who has been trained in safe restraints. I don't think that many special needs students are at risk for behavior that would reasonably lead to them needing to be restrained.

It is honestly odd to me and makes me wonder if they do enough of every other thing that is good to do.

In a well run program it should be extremely rare for this to be needed. And you should have mega support from your lead teacher.

Daria, I am glad to hear more about the training. It sounds good. It is food for thought that you are more concerned (or also very concerned) about seclusion. I am going to keep that in mind.

 

So, to be clear, CPI training in full is two 8 hour days, with about 4 hours of it spent on physical restraint.

 

The first day is almost completely on crisis prevention.  What do you do when a kid shows signs of anxiety, that's likely to deescalate that anxiety?  What do you do when an adult is showing signs that they're acting irrationally?  How do you respond to these things in a way that reduces the likelihood that things will continue to escalate.  The strategies are really good ones, and the course is structured so you can weave in information that's specific to the community you serve in.  So, for example, you can talk about how to get the social worker to come to you.

 

There's also a section on how to respond to physical aggression without restraint.  So, what to do if a kid gets a handful of your hair.  Or what to do if a kid is being unsafe, and they're between you and someone you either need to protect (because CPI is really really really clear that you don't do anything physical unless the threat is to a human being), or to protect them from (e.g. kids is really close to the stairs), and you just need the kid to move to the other side of you, but don't want to restrain.  Some of it is really simple stuff,  that would be obvious in the moment, but because you're practicing the movements they'll become more automatic, and you're less likely to do something like pull away from a bite, or grab a wrist and jeopardize a kid's elbow joint.  

 

There's an option at that point to stop the training.  In most schools, or nursing homes, or other settings, that's as far as most people need to get, and when it was up to me, we'd have many people go that far, and then have the handful of people we really trusted (not first year staff, people who had shown themselves to be rock solid and who the kids trusted) learn techniques for physically managing a kid during a crisis. 

 

Then the physical restraint, there's a lot of emphasis on ways to make it as safe as possible.  Restraint is inherently dangerous.  People die in the U.S. far too often because of restraint.  So, making sure that you're absolutely sure you know what you're doing, and where your hands are and aren't, and who's watching the person and what they're watching for, and that it's something you only use when everything else has failed for as brief a period as possible, takes time.  

 

And then there's a section on how to gather data, and reflect, and rebuild relationships after an incident.  That's something that obviously needs to happen after any escalation, and they talk about it at all levels, but also obviously if things escalated to the point where people were touched without their consent, then that process is critical.  

 

So, I agree with you that restraint should be incredibly rare.  But, I think that, if the training is done right, and the school culture is right, CPI training can support that goal.


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#30 QueenCat

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 12:48 PM

I am going to say more about the hiring for the district we used to live in.... for aides..... individual teachers (for resource rooms at least) would hire for their programs. So someone might think they were applying for a more generic aide job, and then go, and then find out "wow this isn't the job I want." And then that teacher would help the applicant to apply to the "right job." And often call another teacher in the district to say "I have a good candidate for you who knows a lot about biology" and then (for example) that person works with high school kids as more of a tutor (but with the same job title as someone with a totally different job). It can take just a phone call from one teacher to the other teacher.

But if you ever hear parents complain about how their school districts' website is very poor, this applies to the job posting part, too. So I think either keep looking at it periodically or see if you can talk to someone who has worked in the school district and could tell you more about it.

 

Wow! I've never heard of teachers doing their own hiring. Pretty much every state we've lived in, first you interview with HR at the county level. If you pass that interview, you can then interview with principals at specific schools as they do the hiring for everyone in that school. Some specialist positions, where they go to more than one school, are hired at the county level.


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#31 QueenCat

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 12:50 PM

Its all very well to say "let them pay for it" but that simply means not getting those jobs.  Which might be the right choice, but it isn't like you can get the job and demand they pay.

 

It's not an odd requirement, most classroom assistants here are assigned to a special needs student in a regular classroom, and it can very often mean dealing with a child who can have extreme behaviours.  

 

I had wondered if there was something unusual about the training that would account for that kind of cost, but it doesn't sound like it.  My suspicion is that it is a private company that has something of a monopoly, and in fact sets out what is required for the certification.

 

It's not odd for them to require the training. It's odd that they aren't paying for it after they hire you. The norm I've seen is that they do workshops for new hires, at the county's expense.


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#32 Daria

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 01:17 PM

It's not odd for them to require the training. It's odd that they aren't paying for it after they hire you. The norm I've seen is that they do workshops for new hires, at the county's expense.

 

It's odd for them to require that you get it through CPI (if that's the course we're talking about).

 

The cost of CPI is so high, because you're paying for the ability to certify other people.  So, their liability needs to cover you, but also everyone who you train.  Also, if you're the person setting up the systems and protocols for your school or district (that was the position I was in when I took it), having 4 days to pick the brain of someone who has seen every kind of organization and lots of different solutions, is invaluable.  But if you're only using it in the classroom, it's a waste to pay for that level.  The district should be holding in house trainings and certifying people themselves.

 

I can see hiring people contingent on their completing the training.  So, you get an offer, but can't take them up on it until you've got your certificate in hand.  That way if you don't show up, or don't pass the test, or the trainer refuses to certify you, the offer is automatically void.  

 

I have heard of teachers having input into who is hired for their classroom.  Sometimes a lot of input.  But I've never heard of teachers having the ability hire someone start to finish.  Usually, it goes one of two ways.  Either the school system recruits candidates, vets them, and then sends them out to the schools to interview for positions. Or the school finds candidates, sends them off to the district to interview and be vetted, and then the school can offer them a position.  The principal might lean heavily on the teacher for input into the school's decision, but the school system still needs to make their own decision too.


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#33 Lecka

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 03:09 PM

I think that "the school district vets candidates and then sends them to schools to interview for positions" is what they did. They interviewed with teachers. I don't know about everybody hired but for my son's program his teacher interviewed aides and picked who she wanted to hire.

She was a desirable teacher to work for for various reasons (a lot having to do with college students wanting relevant work experience and training for their future careers).

I always felt like I would rather have him in a room/program where they had more aides wanting to work there than they hired. But people who didn't work in that room/program could still be offered a job in the school district, or even in the same school.
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#34 Bluegoat

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 03:23 PM

Ime I don't think that many special needs students need someone who has been trained in safe restraints. I don't think that many special needs students are at risk for behavior that would reasonably lead to them needing to be restrained.

It is honestly odd to me and makes me wonder if they do enough of every other thing that is good to do.

In a well run program it should be extremely rare for this to be needed. And you should have mega support from your lead teacher.

Daria, I am glad to hear more about the training. It sounds good. It is food for thought that you are more concerned (or also very concerned) about seclusion. I am going to keep that in mind.

 

To be hired as a classroom assistant here you could potentially be paired with any student.  It can include students who are sometimes violent, kids that need help with equipment, or with understanding the school work, or kids that need help in the bathroom, all kinds of things.  



#35 Lecka

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 03:24 PM

Also I do think CPI is good and I'm glad to hear first hand about it :)

What I am concerned about is it seems like there isn't that internal structure at the school where staff are trained and supported by the staff at school.

It makes it come across like maybe some staff are thrown to the wolves, don't get the ongoing support and training they need, and then "oh well you took the training, you are on your own now."

That is what I would be questioning.

If he openings they are hiring for require someone to pass the certification, I can see maybe they don't want to hire people and then be stuck with them if they can't pass it, or even don't want to because it isn't the job they want.

Because some people don't want certain jobs, or try but it is a bad fit, and maybe they are still hired and just work somewhere else in the building. But then that leaves an opening for a position where the certification is needed.

That kind of conditional hiring makes sense to me, but it still seems like the training should be provided and personalized to the school.
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#36 Lecka

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 03:35 PM

Bluegoat -- ime when they actually pair kids with aides they want it to make sense.

Someone who can't run they aren't going to put with a child who is a flight risk. But maybe that person is a great tutor for high school kids.

Ime they do take that into consideration.

I have heard they also talk to them about what age they are more interested in working with, what they are comfortable with, etc.

There are some very good people working with older kids who have no interest in toileting. Well if they know someone is going to quit if they need to help with toileting they aren't going to do that.

Where other people don't mind toileting at all and just prefer younger kids.

My son had 1:1 aides for almost 3 years and that is what I have heard from asking.

He had a substitute aide once who usually worked at the middle school, and he was fine but he wanted to go back to the middle school. He liked that age more. They had thought that if he liked it they would keep him, but he didn't and he went back to the middle school.

Frankly at a certain point it is a low-paying job and people will quit if they don't like it, so when people seem good they try to make them happy in the ways that they can when they are able.
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#37 Daria

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 03:37 PM

To be hired as a classroom assistant here you could potentially be paired with any student.  It can include students who are sometimes violent, kids that need help with equipment, or with understanding the school work, or kids that need help in the bathroom, all kinds of things.  

 

I think of restraint training as being like epi-pen training, or administering glucagon for a kid with diabetes.  Very few children will need it, and hopefully the kids who need you to have it need it very rarely.  So, in an inclusive school with 1,000 kids you might need it 0 - 3 times a year, but when you need it you need it immediately, not when someone comes back from a lunch break.

 

But, when you need someone, you need them now, and unlike epi-pens or glucagon you need more than one person at a time.  

 

So, you need enough people that 2 or 3 people on every field trip are trained, even if the flu hits the night before and the 2 people you had originally assigned can't make it.  You need enough people that if the child who needs it's teacher, special educator, and aid are all in his IEP meeting at the other end of the building, you can still come up with 3 people in an instant.  

 

There are also people who you want to have trained, but you don't actually want putting their hands on a child.  A counselor/social worker is often in this category, and often a dedicated aide is too.  Prioritizing those relationships is key, and often times having them stay hands off helps.  But at the same time, you want them trained so they can help the kid understand what's going on, and can talk kids through what's happening to them. 

 

So, a school that does CPI right is going to have a large number of staff who are trained, even though they might have zero incidents in a year.  Training every paraprofessional in the building can be a way to increase the numbers quickly, and since most schools are more willing to reassign paras than teachers (not saying I agree, but that's generally how it works), it increases the number of CPI people you can move around when someone is absent or when a kid's behavior escalates suddenly due to trauma issues.

Having said all that, I agree 100% that internal training is the way to do this.


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#38 Lecka

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 03:55 PM

That does make sense.

Thinking about it more, in my son's program they would have people quit after two weeks fairly often.

They thought they wanted to do it, but then they didn't.

But if people who think they want to do it are going to quit after two weeks; then someone who just isn't interested will never stay long.

So it would be pointless to assign someone to a certain position who would be very likely to quit.

Where I have moved to it seems like the staff turnover is much lower. I think it pays more and also there are few jobs available here. Where we lived before it was much easier to find a job.

The aides here are older, too. Where I lived before they had to have 60 hours of college and many aides were Juniors or Seniors at the local university.

Some of them were very good. Some retirees working part-time were very good. My older son had a former classroom teacher who had retired and then worked as an aide, who was excellent.

But a lot of adults (not college students, not retirees) would tend to not last long.

The college students who were good were getting relevant experience and were trying to get good recommendation letters and things like that.

Here there are no college students and there are people in their 20s/30s/40s who seem to be very stable and to do a really good job.

Edited by Lecka, 13 August 2017 - 03:57 PM.

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#39 Lecka

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 04:04 PM

Also, part of it for me is where we used to live, all the staff had some training. But it would be like -- a staff meeting before school started, and the special ed teacher would go over some things with everyone in the building. For some things even cafeteria workers and the front desk workers.

I thought it seemed good, and like generic people would know how to respond if something came up.

But that happened with staff training when they had those teacher days.

Bc all those people don't need to have the certification.

So then I feel like sometimes when they require a certificate for something that could be handled with staff training and no need for a certificate, it makes me wonder if they are doing the staff trainings, or just checking off a block to say they have people with a certificate.

And absolutely I try to look for signs of a good school culture and commitment to doing some things in a good way, so it would make me want to find out more.

It could mean they have an amazing commitment, too. But maybe it means they don't have much of a commitment but like to be able to say "oh all our staff are certified."

Edited by Lecka, 13 August 2017 - 04:06 PM.

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#40 Lecka

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 04:12 PM

My husband does think I am paranoid on this, because I do want to know a lot of things and I am suspicious.

I have ended up liking how they do things where we live now. It is a well-run program and his teacher is wonderful.

#41 Daria

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 05:16 PM

Also, part of it for me is where we used to live, all the staff had some training. But it would be like -- a staff meeting before school started, and the special ed teacher would go over some things with everyone in the building. For some things even cafeteria workers and the front desk workers.

I thought it seemed good, and like generic people would know how to respond if something came up.

But that happened with staff training when they had those teacher days.

Bc all those people don't need to have the certification.

So then I feel like sometimes when they require a certificate for something that could be handled with staff training and no need for a certificate, it makes me wonder if they are doing the staff trainings, or just checking off a block to say they have people with a certificate.

And absolutely I try to look for signs of a good school culture and commitment to doing some things in a good way, so it would make me want to find out more.

It could mean they have an amazing commitment, too. But maybe it means they don't have much of a commitment but like to be able to say "oh all our staff are certified."

 

I don't really understand that logic that a school that gives a special ed teacher a few minutes, or even a couple hours to train is showing a good culture and commitment to responding appropriately to children experiencing crisis, but a school that invests thousands of dollars, and several days of training with the same goals gets accused of not being committed.
 

Requiring a certificate obviously is partially about liability, but it's also one way to ensure that the school is staying in line with the most current best practices in the field, and that staff members are hearing the most important messages consistently and repeatedly.  


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#42 Bluegoat

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 08:41 AM

Bluegoat -- ime when they actually pair kids with aides they want it to make sense.

Someone who can't run they aren't going to put with a child who is a flight risk. But maybe that person is a great tutor for high school kids.

Ime they do take that into consideration.

I have heard they also talk to them about what age they are more interested in working with, what they are comfortable with, etc.

There are some very good people working with older kids who have no interest in toileting. Well if they know someone is going to quit if they need to help with toileting they aren't going to do that.

Where other people don't mind toileting at all and just prefer younger kids.

My son had 1:1 aides for almost 3 years and that is what I have heard from asking.

He had a substitute aide once who usually worked at the middle school, and he was fine but he wanted to go back to the middle school. He liked that age more. They had thought that if he liked it they would keep him, but he didn't and he went back to the middle school.

Frankly at a certain point it is a low-paying job and people will quit if they don't like it, so when people seem good they try to make them happy in the ways that they can when they are able.

 

 

Well, sure, they try and work with people's strengths.  

 

But having that training, and being able to handle things like bathroom help, are part of what this job is.  Someone might prefer younger kids, but if they want to work they are going to have to take what they are assigned to some extent.

 

It's no different than a workplace where they want everyone to have CPR training, or WHIMIS.  Or a BEd, for that matter.