Great Books and the Romans?

[swimmermom3]

For those of you that followed a Great Books line of study for literature during high school, what Romans did you find to be essential?

 

In the 3rd edition of TWTM, this includes:

 

Horace, Odes

Lucretius, On the Nature of Things

Cicero, De republica

Virgil, Aeneid

Ovid, Metamorphoses

Bible: Corinthians 1 and 2

Joesephus, Wars of the Jews

Plutarch, The Lives of Noble Greeks and Romans

Tacitus, Annals

Athanasius, On the Incarnation

 

We read some Horace, a couple of portraits from Plutarch, selections from Ovid, and half of the Aeneid, which even Dr. Vandiver couldn't convince my son to finish.

 

What works are essential to understanding cultural references and which inspired later authors?

 

I am really wising we had used the time that we lost on the Aeneid to cover Plato's Republic.

 

I have a chance to create a new plan for a friend's daughter.

[swimmermom3]

I knew it! You all skipped the Roman lit, didn't you?

[Corraleno]

FWIW, Lukeion uses the Oxford Anthology of Roman Literature, which includes selections from Plautus, Polybius, Lucretius, Catullus, Cicero, Caesar, Sallust, Horace, Propertius, Ovid, Livy, Seneca, Josephus, Lucan, Petronius, Pliny the Younger, Pliny the Elder, Statius, Quintillian, Martial, Tacitus, Suetonius, Plutarch, Juvenal, Apuleius, Lucian, Marcus Aurelius, and Virgil.

[OnMyOwn]

Hunter posted an interesting list of books that authors make allusions to here. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/640597-essential-not-to-be-missed-literature/ . It caught my eye because many of these books are included somewhere in the 6-year local omnibus class my dd takes, though the class does cover a lot of other books as well.

 

It includes The Iliad, The Odyssey, Plutarch's The Lives of Noble Greeks and Romans, and the Bible.

 

I wonder why SWB would include the Aeneid but not The Iliad or The Odyssey? Maybe she suggests those in the logic stage?

Edited March 23, 2017 by OnMyOwn

[8filltheheart]

OnMyOwn, Homer is typically classified as Greek.

 

ETA: Lisa, we didn't read lit that way. You might look at GBA book list. http://greatbooksacademy.org/curriculum/tenth-grade/

Edited March 23, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[regentrude]

I wonder why SWB would include the Aeneid but not The Iliad or The Odyssey? Maybe she suggests those in the logic stage?

 

No, it is because Homer was Greek, not Roman.

[OnMyOwn]

OnMyOwn, Homer is typically classified as Greek.

 

ETA: Lisa, we didn't read lit that way. You might look at GBA book list. http://greatbooksacademy.org/curriculum/tenth-grade/

Oh, thanks for clarifying. My brain immediately went to "ancients" when I saw that list because I'm so used to seeing classes organized that way.

[Guest]

You might check the Roman Roads Romans GB course and see what they have listed. Dd is taking it next year but I haven't bought the books yet, and can't remember off the top of my head.

[JoJosMom]

Roman Roads' The Romans list is here.  There is quite a bit of overlap with your list, swimmermom.

 

One issue I noted in your OP, though:  Plato's The Republic is Greek, so you might want to cover that before jumping into the Romans.

[2_girls_mommy]

We are getting there right now, and have been taking things one book at a time. DD is finishing up the Illiad. I have purchased some Greek plays and a study guide that I want to do for sure. But other than than that I haven't fully decided what we are going to read to finish up the year. I know we will do some of Plutarch's lives. I haven't decided yet whether to do the Aeneid in full or jump into something else. I am planning on reading some logic stage Homer and then a logic stage Aeneid aloud to dd12. So dd14 could just listen into the Aeneid for children to refresh on that and actually dig into something else on her own, but she has read those before . We will be doing the Bible selections. I had kind of wanted to tackle the Republic. But I also personally would like to read Josephus because I never have. But she may have an idea of her own too. Maybe some Cicero?   Just babbling here. I am really just here watching what others say.  

 

 

[3andme]

For further comparison:

 

CLRC's Great Books list

 

 

Kolbe Academy's Literature:

• The Aeneid - Virgil
• Meditations - Aurelius
• Fall of the Roman Republic** - Plutarch (also used in History)
• Makers of Rome** - Plutarch  (also used in History)
• The Roman Reader
• Coriolanus - Shakespeare
• Julius Caesar - Shakespeare
• Antony and Cleopatra - Shakespeare
• The Confessions of St. Augustine of HIppo

 

Kolbe Academy's History:

• The Early History of Rome - Livy
• The War with Hannibal - Livy
• The Annals of Imperial Rome - Tacitus
• City of God - Augustine
• Fall of the Roman Republic* - Plutarch (also used in Lit)
• Makers of Rome - Plutarch  (also Used in LIt)

Edited March 23, 2017 by 3andme

[chiguirre]

Landry did the Aeneid, Cicero and Julius Caesar (Shakespeare, but a Roman theme). They spent more time on the Greeks and I think that was probably a good choice.

[swimmermom3]

I am grateful for everyone's responses, but you all aren't answering my questions. :D

 

"What works are essential to understanding cultural references and which inspired later authors?"

 

It's easy to find lists of Roman works, but WHY read them?  Which ones are critical?

 

I can come up with many reasons to read ancient Greek literature, but am left short for Roman literature.  Maybe the Aeneid just left a bad taste in our mouth and we were done.  It was a let down after the Iliad and the Odyssey. I can remember checking in with you all when ds decided to return home for high school after his short foray into the public system.  I was skeptical about ancient literature, but reading the Greeks was one of our best experiences and this semester ds is reading Aristophanes, Plato, and Aristotle before tackling Locke, Rousseau, and Hobbes for his Individual Freedom versus Authority class.

 

Eight, one of the things I am planning for this young lady is covering more Bible as literature along with classical mythology. I'd like to keep the Roman part to only what is  necessary because we'll be bringing in modern works written in response to some of these works. For example, maybe we'll use C.S. Lewis's Till We Have Faces or The Sybil or Atwood's The Penelopiad. I have a poem that whose author died during one of the World Wars that evokes Homer.

 

Herodotus or Livy will show up in her history class as primary sources and they will be excerpts. The student is very engaged with literature and I want the works to be stimulating and interesting and not just something we do because it's on a dry, dusty list.  When I am asked why we are reading something (and she will ask), I want to have a better answer than "Because it is a Great Book."

 

Back to the Greeks, I am seriously considering having her do The Republic, because I didn't do the full work with ds and he is wishing he had.  The young lady thinks she wants to follow a similar path as far as foreign service as my son.

 

 

[chiguirre]

I am grateful for everyone's responses, but you all aren't answering my questions. :D

 

"What works are essential to understanding cultural references and which inspired later authors?"

 

 

 

I think the Aeneid, Ovid and a few biographies from Plutarch will be enough. I'd also add in the Julius Caesar because it's a good way to study the history and it's Shakespeare (it's also a lot of fun--especially if your study coincides with the Ides of March).

 

I picked Virgil, Ovid and Plutarch because those are the sources that will pop up again and again in future reading. Virgil is especially important if your student is studying Latin.

 

Just as an aside, I wrote a paper on The Republic my senior year in high school and developed a personal loathing for Plato that I can't really shake to this day. He is an apologist for totalitarianism. I'm not saying don't read it, but be prepared for a long and distasteful slog.

[Bluegoat]

I don't know that there is such a thing as a critical list.  Those things are always fuzzy at the edges, and you have the important ones.  If I'd had to pick one, I'd have said the Aeneid is indispensable.

 

You could probably include Augustine in your list if you need to add something. 

[Bluegoat]

I think the Aeneid, Ovid and a few biographies from Plutarch will be enough. I'd also add in the Julius Caesar because it's a good way to study the history and it's Shakespeare (it's also a lot of fun--especially if your study coincides with the Ides of March).

 

I picked Virgil, Ovid and Plutarch because those are the sources that will pop up again and again in future reading. Virgil is especially important if your student is studying Latin.

 

Just as an aside, I wrote a paper on The Republic my senior year in high school and developed a personal loathing for Plato that I can't really shake to this day. He is an apologist for totalitarianism. I'm not saying don't read it, but be prepared for a long and distasteful slog.

 

I can't say I ever felt this way about The Republic - he isn't after all talking about a real city, but a notional/metaphorical one.  And his thoughts on the perils of democracy are pretty timely at the moment.

[OnMyOwn]

I am grateful for everyone's responses, but you all aren't answering my questions. :D

 

"What works are essential to understanding cultural references and which inspired later authors?"

 

It's easy to find lists of Roman works, but WHY read them? Which ones are critical?

 

.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, which is entirely possible, but did you look at the link I posted above? I thought the list that Hunter posted in that link was a good one and the reasons given for reading the books seemed relevant to your question. I don't know anything abou Michael Dirda, the author she quoted, but it seemed like a reasonable list.

[Penelope]

Some classical curricula do an entire year on just the Roman period, but since I don't, and I am partial to the Greeks, we are doing very little of the Roman list. Just the Aeneid, portions of Ovid, portions of Confessions, and On the Incarnation. We read some Plutarch in middle school, and we read the Bible already because of our faith. Without any connections or interest to the Christian church, I don't know that anyone would consider Augustine or Athansius high on the list, either, though Augustine was very influential for Reformation leaders. City of God is on many lists, but is heavy for high school, IMO, which is why we are sticking to the Confessions for ninth grade. If we had more time, I would be adding on more early Christian writers rather than Livy, Horace, and Lucretius, so perspective on what is most influential and important depends on your family background. Also, we are not doing any of the books this year that would be classified as "histories", so that makes a difference, too.

 

I love Plato and we are reading some of the dialogues, but not much of the Republic. I would like my kids to read it later in high school, though.

[swimmermom3]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, which is entirely possible, but did you look at the link I posted above? I thought the list that Hunter posted in that link was a good one and the reasons given for reading the books seemed relevant to your question. I don't know anything abou Michael Dirda, the author she quoted, but it seemed like a reasonable list.

 

It's a very good list and Virgil didn't make it on there. He also isn't in SWB's  TWEM. We will be doing Dante's Inferno, which references Virgil, but I am beginning to think that knowing the basics of the plot, where it is like Homer and where it differs, and why it's on the Great Books list could be enough.

 

Michael Dirda writes a book column for the Washington Post. Ds and I have used his literary critiques in our studies. Hmm. He used to have a blog with his essays on it, but I can't seem to find it. Those essays were excellent.

 

No, you did understand my question, which is roughly in line with Hunter's post. What I was hoping for was for someone to say, "Yes, I did the Aeneid with my student and here is why I think it is critical to read it, not just be familiar with it."

 

Thank you for the link. It was helpful.