Materials for telling time?

[Jenn in CA]

One of my first graders seems to have no sense of time, whether hours/weeks/months etc. She regularly doesn't know whether it's morning or afternoon. Today she said "when was my birthday? Two years ago?" (It was last month.)

 

Maybe she's just a ditz but if I knew some way to teach the spatial qualities of time I would try it.

 

Another thing both she and her sister don't grasp (at least consistently) is, for ex., that 4:15 is *after* 4:00. We've been working on telling time and it's very slow going.

 

Any ideas for helpful materials? Magic bullets would be nice too.

 

 

[LaughingCat]

Using a metal clock and magnets to show 15 (30, whatever) minutes from now  (I have a post w/link somewhere on this board - but no time to find now)

Using a 'time timer' visual timer - there are real ones and app ones

Also I did a lot of clock face worksheets with my DD - starting with the 'easy' times (00, 15, 30, 45) - there are various sites around that create clock worksheets

 

[OneStepAtATime]

What LaughingCat said.  And be very, very patient.  This is not something that may come easily and it may take more developmental time, too.  DD is 14.  It is only now that these things are starting to truly make sense.  I have had to be very, very patient, work a lot with daily time, have her look at calendars, clocks, etc., try to estimate and practice determining how much even 5 minutes feels like, and on a regular basis.  

 

Please don't think of this as ditzy behavior.  Some children are not born with the internal sense of time and quantities that are necessary for these skills to just come.  Some children will have to have these skills taught externally, and repeated for possibly years and years before it all finally sticks.  

 

And for some it may never stick but there are ways to scaffold and help them set up external supports so they know when to go to the doctor and when to go to work and when a bill is due, etc.  DD has almost no sense of the passage of time.   10 minutes quite literally feels the same as an hour to her.  Think how much we do based on just a basic, subconscious sense of the passage of time?   And how hard it must be to function in a world full of schedules without that basic sense?  But we are working on ways for her to function without that internal sense of time, using a lot of consistency, manipulatives, repetition, explanation, etc..  It just takes "time".   :)

 

Best wishes....

[Lecka]

Can she sequence?  I am told sequencing is something of a pre-requisite skill for my dev. delayed son. 

 

We are also recommended to use a visual schedule and talk about what we did and what we will do. 

 

We are recommended to talk about "things that happen in the morning, things that happen in the afternoon, things that happen at night."  Also "things that happen in summer, things that happen in winter," etc. 

 

We are not close to actual time/calendar skills -- but these are supposed to be some skills for him now. 

 

This is a common-ish problem -- your daughter is not a ditz. 

 

Also, do you know that they can sequence numbers 1-10?  If they can, can you look at a number line and talk about "before and after," and they can do that?  Can they do it without a number line?  If yes to those, you could get some little sequencing papers, with times on a clock face, and then have them order them from earliest to latest.  Then ask questions when they have the sequenced clock faces in front of them.  Then see if they can answer the questions with the sequenced clock faces not in front of them.  I have seen things like this that are pre-made, but you could just draw some clock faces on some index cards, too.  You could do some where they are 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 to be easier, and then do some where they are 4:00, 4:15, 4:30, 4:45, 5:00.  Or whatever. 

 

Can they talk about yesterday, today, tomorrow with a calendar in front of them? 

 

Personally -- with the order my son will go in, times like 4:00 and 4:15 will be a later skill for him than yesterday, today, tomorrow on a calendar.  But he is actually still on looking at a number line and talking about what number comes before and after a number.  He is also still on talking about events that happened earlier in the day or one day before, plus some holidays and special occasions.  That is where he is. 

 

You also might need to work on vocabulary words of minute, hour, day, month, year.  They may be vague on what each word refers to.  It takes a lot of work.  We are on "day" and "parts of a day" like morning, afternoon, evening, and when meals will happen, and things like that.  Like -- "breakfast is in the morning."  "We go to bed at night."  We are still on that framework. 

 

Then we are also talking about seasons, 4 seasons in a year (though not expecting him to understand this yet), and what we do in different seasons. 

 

Really -- it is what kids are doing K and 1st grade, and learning about holidays and the weather, will help, too.  It can start broad like that.   

 

 

[Jenn in CA]

Thank you for your thoughtful replies. 

 

I'd never heard of a Time Timer. That is so cool. Thanks!

 

OK we'll keep working away at it. Thank you for reminding me that she's not a ditz. :)

 

I worked daily at the calendar when they were 4. I thought I was going to lose my mind... they just didn't get it all (but loved reciting the numbers, etc.) then stopped, figuring they would eventually get it. Now, 2 years later, I pull it out again, and the older 6yo (the one with reading issues) still has no clue, but the younger 6yo (the one who has no sense of time) seems to get what the squares, etc. stand for.

 

So the older 6yo has good sense of time, but doesn't get how the calendar is related to the passage of days.

The younger 6yo has no sense of time, but seems to be able to read the calendar.

 

!!!!!!!

 

I feel like repeating the calendar, time etc. over and over at this point is not going to help if they don't "get" it. Like rote-memorization of times tables before they understand the concept.

 

But if that's the way to help them 'get' it then it would be worth continuing.

 

Kind of like "balloons-pigs" in Barton, just keep saying it until it sticks?

 

(sorry to switch from time to calendar, but the struggles seem to be similar on both sides.)

 

[FairProspects]

Does she have any dx or suspected dx at all? Time concepts are very difficult for dyslexics.

 

We used the clock with 2 different colored hands from Right Start and some of the Ronit Bird information on the clock being two different systems on top of each other - an hour system and a minutes system. I still have to color code the hands for my youngest.

 

We also use a variety of timers for activities since neither kid has any time sense at all (I was told to expect this forever for both kids by the neuropsych). We like this timer for younger kids.

 

We use a big, school monthly calendar too. I stole a concept from our Montessori preschool and move yesterday, today, tomorrow markers every morning so they get a visual representation of the calendar everyday. We don't do any real work with it or recite or anything but it is there as a reference on the wall and I know both boys use it daily.

[wendyroo]

I think it is confusing the way most curricula approach learning to read a clock.  First they show 1 o'clock (and the other o'clocks), but then they jump right to 1:30 because measuring time to only hours and half hours is less confusing.  But is it?  I think to some kids the 30 just seems like an arbitrary label that we mysteriously tell them "happens" when the hand points down.  Then we start talking about 15's and 45's, but the whole time the kid is looking at a clock and clearly sees that the numbers 15, 30 and 45 never show up on it.  We are just making up a convoluted system to trick them!!

 

I like to approach time telling just like I approach history instruction: chronologically.  This is what the clock looks like at 1pm; the hour hand is pointing at the 1.  This is the minute hand.  Right now it is pointing straight up which means it is zero minutes after 1pm; we can write it 1:00pm.  When the minute hand moves one click, then one minute has passed.  Now it is 1:01pm meaning one minute after 1pm.  Click, 1:02, click, 1:03, click, 1:04, click, 1:05.  Oh, look, now the hand is pointing at the 1, BUT remember, that 1 is talking about the hour.  That is why our hour hand started at the 1.  That 1 doesn't have anything to do with the minutes, because we know the minute hand has clicked 5 times, so it is 5 minutes after 1pm or 1:05pm.

 

And onward and upward.  We move the minute hand of our geared teaching clock one click at a time as we count the minutes.  We discover that 60 clicks gets us back to the top.  We discover that as we move the minute hand that the hour hand moves on it own.  We deduce that if the hour hand is now pointing to the 2 and the minute hand is straight up meaning 0, that we would call it 2:00.

 

After a while, the child figures out how to read 3:17 even though the hour hand isn't pointing right to the 3, because they can visualize that the hour hand used to be on the 3 when the minute hand was at 0.

 

Eventually, the child gets tired of counting the individual minutes and discovers the shortcut of counting up from a known point (maybe 30, maybe something else) or counting in groups of five.

 

This is the approach that has worked for my two older boys.

 

Wendy

[LaughingCat]

That timer with the warning system looks very cool.  One bad thing about the time timer and the magnets on a metal clock is you have to look at it to know how much time is left - which you aren't going to do if you are distracted of course.     I haven't seen an app that has a warning ding (although probably there are some). 

[geodob]

Jenn, you wrote: ' Another thing both she and her sister don't grasp (at least consistently) is, for ex., that 4:15 is *after* 4:00.'

 

Where not grasping 'after', is a key issue?

To concieve of after, we first need to locate the opposing point of 'before'.

But if we are unable to locate them as opposing points?

Then they have no meaning?

 

The brain uses both sides to concieve of this.

Where starting in the mid-brain as reference point.

It uses the Left to locate and concieve of past, smaller, less than, beginning.

Then it uses the Right in opposition, to locate and concieve of future, larger, greater than, the end.

 

With these opposing points located, it can divide the space up between them.

So that 'things' can be ordered in between them.

Where seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years?

Are concieved of as divisions within divisions.

Ordered from left to right.

 

But this 'telling time' and reading clocks is really arbitrary?

Where 4:15 on a clockface, or a digital clock, or as words (fifteen minutes past four).

Is all the same time.

The way that it is presented and read doesn't matter?

What is important, is to develop a sense of time as a functional skill.

 

So that we have a sense of how long a minute, or 15 minutes actually are.

A clock just provides a reference point, that locates now.

Which only has meaning within a schedule.

[PeterPan]

 

We use a big, school monthly calendar too. I stole a concept from our Montessori preschool and move yesterday, today, tomorrow markers every morning so they get a visual representation of the calendar everyday. We don't do any real work with it or recite or anything but it is there as a reference on the wall and I know both boys use it daily.

So are these little icons/magnets or something that you put on the days and move?  I made our calendar stuff and we started using it months ago, but there's something idiotic about using all these printed day labels with a dyslexic non-reader.  The idea of marking on a calendar would make better sense.  Keep needing to up our game.

 

For the op, what I'm doing with ds now is just trying to get HOURS to have some meaning.  So I'm asking him what hour it is as we do things.  I figure if an hour on the clock can start to mean something, maybe later the minutes will.  

[kbutton]

So are these little icons/magnets or something that you put on the days and move?  I made our calendar stuff and we started using it months ago, but there's something idiotic about using all these printed day labels with a dyslexic non-reader.  The idea of marking on a calendar would make better sense.  Keep needing to up our game.

 

For the op, what I'm doing with ds now is just trying to get HOURS to have some meaning.  So I'm asking him what hour it is as we do things.  I figure if an hour on the clock can start to mean something, maybe later the minutes will.  

 

If you have a pocket calendar, you can make tags that go behind the numbers but are tall enough to stick out above them with the words for today, yesterday, tomorrow, etc. I would use colors and maybe arrows (down for today, left for yesterday, right for tomorrow).

[kbutton]

What about using a number line for time? I think the biggest problem with a calendar is that it shows an arbitrary amount of time out of context. You could have a number line that stretches across one wall for a year, and then you could divide that line into 365 days (and use colors to divide into smaller amounts also). Move a game piece ahead each AM or whatever. You could use different colors to represent markings for minutes, hours, days, etc. They don't have to get the whole idea--you can say, "A year is from birthday to birthday. A week is from x activity to x activity (and it can split weeks in the middle from Tuesday to Tuesday, unlike what the calendar does). You don't need to remember that now because we are going to put mark it on our line. Today, we are going to put a marble in the jar every hour. Some of those hours we'll be sleeping, so at bedtime, we'll put the sleeping hours' marbles in the jar. By the same time tomorrow, we'll have 24 marbles in the jar, and we can move our game piece forward another day on our timeline. We can measure time other ways too--we can measure in minutes. Do you want to set a timer and put a bead in another jar for every minute? When we have enough of those, we can swap them for a marble." (That's not as linear as it should be, but I'm in a hurry.)

 

You could talk about how the earth goes around on it's axis once every day--"It creates some light time and some dark time. We needed a way to show "how much" that time is, so we called it a day. That was too big of a chunk of time to talk about all that we have to do in a day, so we made up other names for those chunks of time. Decide where you want to start, and make a number line." And you can expend or contract that explanation to whatever size seems reasonable.

 

Just some thoughts. Time is a big idea that we slap a set of boxes on. If they can grasp the idea that time is big, then maybe they can grasp why we have boxes, clocks, etc. and that those things are just tools with rules so that we all use them the same way and can talk about time. A number line might show how it never really starts and ends--we put those names on things so that we can talk about "when" something happened.

[kbutton]

As for reading a clock face, MUS has a fantastic way to explain it. It's really, really good.

[OneStepAtATime]

As for reading a clock face, MUS has a fantastic way to explain it. It's really, really good.

where is that?  

[FairProspects]

If you have a pocket calendar, you can make tags that go behind the numbers but are tall enough to stick out above them with the words for today, yesterday, tomorrow, etc. I would use colors and maybe arrows (down for today, left for yesterday, right for tomorrow).

 

This is pretty much exactly what I do with our pocket calendar.

[kbutton]

where is that?  

 

It's in their Primer level. They basically build a clock with their rods. I could probably describe it, but not right now. If you google on the forums, I think I've described it someplace else (quite a while ago). They have a template for doing it, but you could make your own by outlining regular c-rods.

[FairProspects]

It's in their Primer level. They basically build a clock with their rods. I could probably describe it, but not right now. If you google on the forums, I think I've described it someplace else (quite a while ago). They have a template for doing it, but you could make your own by outlining regular c-rods.

 

I'm fairly certain that is in Miquon too.

[Timberly]

.

[PeterPan]

Wow Kbutton, you're really on a roll this morning with brilliant ideas!!   :D  And that timeline idea, how cool to start with the new year!!!!  You should see me sitting here salivating at what wall we could put this on...  

 

So I missed this.  You have been using MUS with your boys?  Ages ago you offered me your MUS rods, so somehow I took it that you had moved on... Or was that not you?  I know someone did.  

 

I had to reread to figure out your marble and jar idea.  Love!  

[kbutton]

Wow Kbutton, you're really on a roll this morning with brilliant ideas!!   :D  And that timeline idea, how cool to start with the new year!!!!  You should see me sitting here salivating at what wall we could put this on...  

 

So I missed this.  You have been using MUS with your boys?  Ages ago you offered me your MUS rods, so somehow I took it that you had moved on... Or was that not you?  I know someone did.  

 

I had to reread to figure out your marble and jar idea.  Love!  

 

I used Primer with little guy when he was in preschool/kindy. We use Miquon now for him and will probably move to Singapore when we are finished. The older one does Singapore (in 5 right now) after using A Beka in K-2 at school. 

 

I still have my MUS stuff. I would like to loan it out or give it to a good home. 

 

I don't think Miquon builds a clock with rods unless it's in the teacher stuff and not on the pages. I peak at the teacher stuff from time to time but do not follow it carefully. I usually have a pretty good idea where they are going with the lab sheets.