Passage of time...

[OneStepAtATime]

Poor DD is still struggling with time.  She does not sense the passage of time.  10 minutes feels pretty much the same as an hour to her. It really upsets her because we are sometimes late to things and she hates being late.   She really doesn't seem to be able to judge how long it will take to get ready for any particular event.  She has alarms on her phone and I try hard to remind her that we will be leaving soon and to help her judge how long it will take for her to get ready but I also run a business and don't always have time to count her down to when it is time to leave.  

 

And I won't always be there for her.  She needs to start developing better coping mechanisms but I will have to be the one to help her implement and master those mechanisms and so far I am not doing as good a job as I would like.  I hate to see her so frustrated and I hate the possibility of her losing jobs or missing classes or whatever because she cannot judge time.  It isn't from lack of effort or laziness.  She really does care.  Anyone else facing this with their dc?

[Princess Ariel]

My dd 13 still has difficulty with time.  Days of the week as well as actual time passing.  She asks me what day it is often.  For that I had her fill in a calendar and we place it under the clear plastic  table cloth we have over the regular one on the kitchen table so she can keep reminders in clear view. For time in minutes, etc., she used to go by how long a favorite tv show lasted so we dealt with half hours a lot and went from there  (more or less than a half hour).  She resists wearing a watch and doesn't have a phone yet, but she does know how to read certain times on the computer or regular clock on the wall or appliances in the kitchen. I don't know if any of this helps but we are still dealing with it, too. We used to have one of those "Time Timers" with the red portion that shows time moving but I think she messed with it too much and it didn't always work. Sometimes now it's how long does a favorite song last, etc.  I get what you mean about the countdown to leave the house but I haven't quite figured out how to get myself out of the picture yet!

[geodob]

OneStep, this is a major issue with Dyscalculia and highlights the difficulty of associating a number with a 'quantity'.

 

But what I am thinking about?

Is a different way, that doesn't use numbers for time?

 

Rather what I'm thinking, is using different regular activities. That usually take about the same time to do.

Which would initially involve timing them.

For example, perhaps she takes about the same time most days. To get dressed?

Which maybe about 10 minutes?

Where this could then be used as a benchmark?

Dressing Time could be renamed as DT.

Then temporarily, 10 could be replaced with DT ?

From 10 minutes, to DT minutes.

Where other activities that take about 10 minutes, or DT minutes could be identified?

 

So that basically, it develops an association between certain activities and time.

Then when someone says 10 minutes?

It is associated with DT minutes, and the time it takes to get these activities done.

 

Then for 30 minutes?

Perhaps she could see how far she could walk in 30 minutes?

Where this 'Walk Time' of 30 minutes. Could be termed WT minutes.

Then walking there and back, would take 60 minutes and an hour.

Where this could be termed as WB Walk Back time.

 

So when someone says 30 minutes or half an hour?

It is associated WT/ Walk Time.

Equally, 60 minutes or an hour, become associated with WB/ Walk Back Time.

 

So that essentially, different amounts of time, become associated with different activities.

Which would give these different times some real meaning.

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks for the suggestions, ladies!  I will add them to my list of coping options.

 

 When our schedule is very routine and the same every day she does pretty well.  But things are not routine at all this year.  When moving to S.A. didn't work out, things starting hopping here.  DD is now part of two different homeschool co-op student councils, she is part of 4-H, she is taking co-op classes, going on field trips, she is part of a homeschool drama organization, a church youth group, etc.  Except for drama and the co-op classes everything else happens very erratically.  No one seems to have a set schedule.  It has really mucked her up for keeping track of everything.  It is mucking me up, too.  We all have EF issues and DH and DD have no sense of time passage so keeping us all organized and moving forward has been...interesting.  :)  Thank goodness for Smart but Scattered and ADD Friendly Ways to Organize Your Life or we'd all be in serious trouble.  At least she seems happy with all the groups.  She just hates being late.

[ElizabethB]

:grouphug:

 

Does she have an iPod touch or similar device? If not, I would get her one. For at least a few weeks, set a visible timer, they have a cool circle to show the passage of time, while she is working or playing or eating, have her reset it and watch it occasionally for each activity. You can also set recurring events and one time events with reminder alarms. My daughter is good about the passage of time, but she hates to be late and sets an alarm about 10 minutes before she has to get ready for gymnastics practice.

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:

 

Does she have an iPod touch or similar device? If not, I would get her one. For at least a few weeks, set a visible timer, they have a cool circle to show the passage of time, while she is working or playing or eating, have her reset it and watch it occasionally for each activity. You can also set recurring events and one time events with reminder alarms. My daughter is good about the passage of time, but she hates to be late and sets an alarm about 10 minutes before she has to get ready for gymnastics practice.

Interesting.  She has her phone with her constantly because she uses it to play music.  It has alarms but no cool countdown anything....hmmmm.

[ElizabethB]

Interesting. She has her phone with her constantly because she uses it to play music. It has alarms but no cool countdown anything....hmmmm.

Is it an iPhone? In the clock section there is a stopwatch that counts up and a timer that counts down.

[OneStepAtATime]

Is it an iPhone? In the clock section there is a stopwatch that counts up and a timer that counts down.

No, DH isn't too big on Apple products and we always get his hand-me-downs since his job requires he have a pretty current phone.  It is a Samsung Galaxy S III, I believe....

[ElizabethB]

No, DH isn't too big on Apple products and we always get his hand-me-downs since his job requires he have a pretty current phone. It is a Samsung Galaxy S III, I believe....

I am sure there is an app for that, ask on the chat board!

[PeterPan]

Interesting.  She has her phone with her constantly because she uses it to play music.  It has alarms but no cool countdown anything....hmmmm.

Sorry, I thought I had replied here!  I have no sense of time.  I think your chronometer is in the EF portion of your brain.  In any case, we know I'm off, way off.  You *can* do some things with watching time tick, like literally sitting there watching it go. I did that with ds, watching 30 seconds go by, one minute, two minutes, etc. to see what they felt like. You can time your everyday activities to see how much time they REALLY take.  You can compare her sense of time passage and figure out what ratio she's at.  That way she can adjust on her own when she's without a source.  I'm usually at 150%, so if I think it was 10 minutes it will have been 15.  That has been really consistent, so I can actually plan on it now, lol.  

 

I set timers for EVERYTHING.  My iPhone has multiple types of stop watches and counters and junk in the clock feature.  I would assume the samsung's does too.  I've used their tablet and phone but never looked at that feature, sorry.  Just find a basic one and it should have it.  Personally, I like to set *alarms* for everything.  Would you like to know how many alarms I set today on my phone?  LOL  Seriously, I used one to wake up, another to remind me 15 minutes before the leave time, another a few minutes before the leave time, another to remember when to take everyone in to use the bathroom before the appointment (they were looking at the ducks at the pond), another to remember when to leave our friends' house, another to make sure I finished my shopping errands on time to make the next appointment, another to make sure we left dinner (eating out) soon enough to make our next appointment.

 

Yup.  Was that 7?  I lost track, lol.  Seriously, I can be on time for everything when I use that many timers, lol.  I use our stove a LOT.  But those are the lengths I have to go to to be on time.  If I have say a ST appointment at 11 am in Cincinnati, well 11 is so far away from 8 as numbers go that it doesn't sound close, right?  So that means I shouldn't have to get ready when the clock says 8-anything, right?  But actually it turns out you DO!  

 

Our stove has keypad entry for numbers and can be heard over the whole house.  That's why I use it so much, lol.  You'll laugh, but for real I set it any time I put something on the stove and walk away.  I have no sense of time (and forget things), so if I walk away from the stove AT ALL I set the timer.  Seriously.  Put on oatmeal, set timer for 3 minutes.  EVERYTHING.  Boiling water, set the timer.  

 

It's what works for me.  I have clocks everywhere btw.  Like I have them in closets, in the bathrooms, etc.  I really have NO sense of time, so that's what I do, constantly checking them.  I use analog, not digital.  I don't usually look at the hour, just the hand.  Everything is sort of relative for me.  I think some people with quirks have a preference, so it's worth checking before you go investing in one kind or the other.  If she prefers face clocks, get them.  Some people really do.  Number clocks are sort of stressful.  

[Timberly]

I use our stove a LOT. Our stove has keypad entry for numbers and can be heard over the whole house.

We have nicknamed our really loud and obnoxious stove timer "the timer that MUST be obeyed". We don't set it for cooking but for thing like "get in car now or miss the swim meet, baseball game, Sunday School class, doctor appointment..." We use a different magnetic fridge timer for cooking.

 

 

We have 2 magnetic timers in many rooms of the house and each family member sets timers on their kindle, ipad, iPod, blackberry or iphone. Everyone knows whose ring tone is whose, especially bedroom alarm clocks.

 

 

I don't send kids off for a school break until they show me that their timer is set for a 20, 30, 40...minute break (they'd never return without the timer going off). They make sure I set timers for school sessions.

 

 

If they forget to set a timer for media/video games/movies (1 hr weekdays and 2 hrs on weekends) media gets turned off immediately. That rule quickly eliminated the need for me to police video game usage.

 

 

NT DS11 and LD DS10 have Kindle/iPod lists for morning routine, evening routine, sports bag packing, chores, getting out the door, school work, doing laundry... We call their devices "Their Master".

 

 

So when they ask me if they can do such and such (neighbor kids ring the doorbell to see if they can play) I tell them to ask their master if they are free. Their master knows if it's shower day, gather household trash day, if school assignments are done, if we have appointments...

 

 

LD DS10 never succeeded with a simple laminated to do list and a dry erase marker but he is the champion with touch screen kindle lists. He carries it around and taps it to check off items. My working memory challenged kid is now better than hubby and I at knowing what he needs to do and when!

 

 

Timers go off on kids devices an hour before "bums in bed" time or "leave the house time". If they get ready early, they get to play, but they must begin getting ready when their device timer goes off.

 

 

DH loves answering questions with "I don't know, go ask your master."

 

 

Something about a touch screen checklist gets results at our house.

 

 

Last month I decided that I would no longer be the only one who carried empty hangers from the bedrooms to the laundry room, so that task got added to "The Master".

 

 

Then I added "shoes on shoe mat" and no longer do I trip on their shoes.

 

 

Adding "Lights off" (each light in house is listed), "electronic devices off" (each device is listed), and "yard toys put a away" made hubby happy.

 

 

I'm dealing with elementary ages and no business to run. I can't imagine your DD14 and all of her activities. Maybe start a small master list and slowly add items to it. We've been slowly adding items for 10 months.

 

ETA:

 

Hang in there. My gifted DD23 couldn't keep track of anything when she was 14 - and her working memory tested at the 99th percentile when she was ages 4, 8, and 13.

 

 

Looking back, I really regret not helping her in a way that made her feel like I was on her team and believed in her ability to succeed. Those regrets drove me to set up the boys "Masters".

[PeterPan]

We have nicknamed our really loud and obnoxious stove timer "the timer that MUST be obeyed". We don't set it for cooking but for thing like "get in car now or miss the swim meet, baseball game, Sunday School class, doctor appointment..." We use a different magnetic fridge timer for cooking.

 

 

We have 2 magnetic timers in many rooms of the house and each family member sets timers on their kindle, ipad, iPod, blackberry or iphone. Everyone knows whose ring tone is whose, especially bedroom alarm clocks.

 

 

I don't send kids off for a school break until they show me that their timer is set for a 20, 30, 40...minute break (they'd never return without the timer going off). They make sure I set timers for school sessions.

 

 

If they forget to set a timer for media/video games/movies (1 hr weekdays and 2 hrs on weekends) media gets turned off immediately. That rule quickly eliminated the need for me to police video game usage.

 

 

NT DS11 and LD DS10 have Kindle/iPod lists for morning routine, evening routine, sports bag packing, chores, getting out the door, school work, doing laundry... We call their devices "Their Master".

 

 

So when they ask me if they can do such and such (neighbor kids ring the doorbell to see if they can play) I tell them to ask their master (their master knows if it's shower day, gather household trash day, if school assignments are done, if we have an appointments...) if they are free.

 

 

LD DS10 never succeeded with laminated to do list and a dry erase marker but he is the champion with touch screen kindle lists. He carries it around and taps it to check off items. My working memory challenged kid is now better than hubby and I at knowing what he needs to do and when!

 

 

Timers go off on kids devices an hour before "bums in bed" time or "leave the house time". If they get ready early they get to play, but they must begin getting ready when their device timer goes off.

 

 

DH loves answering questions with "I don't know, go ask your master."

 

 

Something about a touch screen checklist gets results at our house.

 

 

Last month I decided that I would no longer be the only one who carried hangers from the bedrooms to the laundry room, so that task got added to "The Master".

 

 

Then I added "shoes on shoe mat" and no longer did I trip on their shoes.

 

 

Adding "Lights off" (each light in house is listed), "electronic devices off" (each device is listed), and "yard toys put a away" made hubby happy.

 

 

I dealing with elementary ages. I can't imagine DD14 and all of her activities. Maybe start a small master list and slowly add items to it. We've been slowly adding items for 10 months.

 

 

Hang in there. My gifted DD23 couldn't keep track of anything when she was 14. I wonder if electronic checklist would have helped. 14 was a rough age for her because of juggling school and extra curriculars, and her working memory was in the 99th percentile.

Timberly, did I mention you're amazing?   :001_wub:   So at what age did you start using your Masters in this way?  You said elementary, but to how young?  And I'm curious, what apps are you using for the lists? :)

[OneStepAtATime]

O.k. rushing DD and I out the door for another event but I was skimming and intend to re-read later.  Great ideas, ladies.  Thanks!  :)

[Lecka]

I was just reading in a different book, about how difficulty with sequencing can make it hard to have a good sense of time.  I googled and this looks interesting.  http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/755-2.html

 

The book I am reading -- I am reading wrt my son who is almost 6.  It is talking about sequencing games of all kinds, a lot where you have pictures and put them in order, and putting things in order by size.  Then it says you can make a schedule and assumes you will have meals at the same time.  Then you have the meals as their anchor to what times things will happen.  You teach that breakfast is in the morning, lunch is at noon, and supper is at 6:00.  Then you make the schedule and talk about how long things take on the schedule, and show them in between the "anchors."  

 

It also has activities where you time different activities.  Then later -- you ask them to estimate how much time it takes to do an activity.  They had worksheet type things, where you just ask "how long do you think it takes to get to the store" and the choices are x minutes or x hours, so they are doing good if they know the difference between things that take way less than an hour, compared to things that take more than an hour.  It has you go over this with things that you have timed and written the times in on the schedule of "what we have done today."  

 

So -- it is for a younger child, but in it you are writing down what is done and timing it, then going over that over a period of time and helping the child to see what you do in the morning, afternoon, or evening, how long things take, and other patterns like "this happens on Tuesdays."  

 

It is not getting into a time when kids are needing to keep track on their own and make their own schedules, but some of it seems like it will be helpful for my son.  

 

We do a lot of timers, too, and I talk a lot with my older son about how I count back to figure out how long it will take to get ready, for when I am setting the timer, and what things need to be done.  I think he is okay -- he just does not always think of all the things that need to be done ahead of time, or he doesn't realize how long they will take.  But I walk him through it.  It is really just sharing my own thought process, b/c I do have to think about things to get done, and often there is a learning process where I am late (or the kids are late) b/c I didn't realize that something would need to be done or I didn't give enough time.  That means -- I change the time next time.  

 

We have been talking about traffic, too.  There is traffic here at 5:00 such that we need to allow an extra 15 minutes to get places between 5:00 and 6:00.  My older son is really interested in seeing if I am right -- did we really need to leave 15 minutes earlier.  He likes it, though, it appeals to his math side I think, and his "can I predict how long things will take better than mom" side.  

 

It is something he likes and is pretty good at, which I know make a huge difference, but it is a way to have a game element and make it seem more fun for him.  

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks, everyone!  Working out things to add to what we are already doing to help and I really appreciate all the suggestions.  

 

DD's alarm went off on her phone the other day and she asked what it was for (she had forgotten).  I told her it was 5 til noon and time to get ready to go to her Student Council activity.  Now she can read an analog and a digital clock.  She knows the increments.  She doesn't seem to have any issues with that.  But the words 5 til noon had no meaning for her even though we have reviewed all the many ways of saying time phrases for years.  She got upset and kept saying "What does that mean?  I don't know what that means!"  even when I tried wording it differently.  I pulled out our analog clock and helped her "see" 5 til noon and how much time was left before we had to leave the house.  She calmed down but still seemed a bit lost and agitated.    :(

 

On a bright note we made it to everything she was scheduled for on Saturday without any problems and she was very happy with all she accomplished for the various organizations she was helping.

[PeterPan]

OneStep, can you switch to a calendar or alarm app that lets her write notes for the alarms?  Sounds like she needs it.  The "Clock" app that comes with your apple devices will let you label it, set intervals, etc. etc.  I keep some that are just generic for my quickie, don't forget to do x in 5 minutes things, but any apps that I need to remember I have notes.  So I have one that says Massage Tuesday, another for Pick Up DS (cuz literally EVERYBODY at the convention now knows that I'M the one who forgot her kid there, lol), etc.  After that first screw-up I had to go make alarms for every single drop off and pick up, lol.

 

So get her an i-device for Christmas if she doesn't have one and start using these features!  This conversation has been really inspiring to me, because I didn't realize how much of what I don't accomplish is because of my lack of sense of time.  I'm thinking I'll go through and make more alarms for my ideas for the day and set each one for the correct day and time.  I love that I can adjust them in a tweak if I need to slide an hour.  

 

Btw, I keep my device on sound *and* vibrate.  Don't ask how easy it is to tune out sounds, lol.  

 

So yes, she should be able to label all her alarms with specific explanations.  11:55-get ready to leave for student council, 12:00-leave for student council, etc.

 

Bonus: You didn't ask, but I really like Calendars5.  It's an app and it will use the apple Calendar (used to be iCal) data, so you can sync it with iCloud across devices, talk to your device to add to the calendar, etc.  It just has a LOT better visuals, wow.  I have all the macs synced to one iCloud account and put everybody's calendar's with color codes, which looks really snazzy on Calendars5.  So on your mac or idevice in Calendar you set up each calendar under iCloud (not On My Mac), then label them and color code by person or whatever you like.  Then on each device pick which calendars you want showing on the device.  So I have mom-private, mom-main, ds-school, dd-private, dd-social, rd-school, etc. etc., color coded by person.  (I'm purple!)  So that way mom-private doesn't have to be on anyone else's devices but is on mine, that kind of thing.  Now I know dd's stuff when I'm out (like if I'm scheduling and need to know if she's free to sit).  And it means I can add to anyone's calendar.

 

Whatever, that's just bonus.  Just guessing she needs the calendar too.   :)

[PeterPan]

Ok Lecka, fess up, what's the book you're reading with all the neat ideas on sequencing...  :)

[PeterPan]

OneStep, if you read it before I added the calendar junk, go back and see that part.  :)

[OneStepAtATime]

OneStep, if you read it before I added the calendar junk, go back and see that part.   :)

Yeah, re-reading everything now, before getting ready for church... :)  Thanks!

[OneStepAtATime]

And I totally am on board with alarms.  My phone goes off all the time.  And I have a master list I keep with me in a spiral.  When the day is over anything that didn't get done is moved to the next day's list and the top page gets torn off and disposed of.  Otherwise I end up with all these partially completed lists and I can't keep track.  I'd be dead without it.  DD would do better with everything on her phone, I think, instead of a spiral.  I am intrigued by the options everyone is mentioning.  She keeps her phone with her nearly all the time so something small like that might work really well.  (She only actually ever uses it to call DH or I if she is out but at home it is her lifeline to her music so it rarely leaves her side).

 

What's funny is I found an old diary of mine from Middle School. What was it full of?  Crushes on boys?  The ins and outs of middle school life?  Pre-teen angst?  Nope.  Lists.  Lots and lots of lists.  Lists for how to organize my books (I created my own card catalog system since I had a LOT of books and kept losing track), lists of things I needed to do each day, lists of songs I wanted to save money to buy on cassette (we couldn't afford 8 track :) ), lists of goals for the month, lists of potential Christmas gifts for family members, etc.  I was never an organized child.  EF issues all over the place.  But I WANTED to be organized.  So I went into overdrive trying to find ways to make that happen.  Didn't always work, but I did try.   :)

[PeterPan]

OneStep, you are hilarious!!!  My dd is like that, with full typed up lists, but she doesn't go as far as you!  You're awesome.  :)

 

You know, if she doesn't use the phone feature you can turn it to airplane mode and turn that off.  I'm sort of anti-cell (well that and wifi and EMF and...), so that's what I do.  I even turn off the locator service so it's not pinging.  But I'm nuts.  :)

[Lecka]

The book is called Teach Me Language, I am looking for some ideas for my younger son.  I have borrowed it from my son's therapist, it is not one I would buy.  There is some good stuff, but it is like -- not worth buying for me.  But it is good for me to be informed about some things, and it does have some good ideas.  A lot of it, it is not how my son is going to be taught.  The ideas of what to teach, are really good, but the ways to teach them -- are probably not the best for my son.

[Lecka]

I am adding on... the book I am reading has a lot of good ideas about sequencing, and talks about many areas that sequencing effects.  It has some ideas for teaching sequencing that seem good to me (though we would not do it just like in the book -- I don't really like how she has scripts for kids to memorize).  

 

She is kind-of saying, the same sequencing problems are causing problems in a lot of areas:  time, money, calendar, routines, reading comprehension, writing, etc. etc.  

 

Then she wants to make sequencing really explicit, and review the basic sequencing and practice the basic sequencing for a while, and says don't think kids have it down quickly, it takes practice and exposure over a long time.  

 

It seems like it has ideas I have seen spread out other places, and known to be effective for some kids, but she is addressing them all from a "sequencing" perspective.  

 

She is also saying -- this is an abstract concept that is difficult for some kids.  B/c, it is not concrete so that makes it difficult for them to understand in the first place.  So, she is recommending to start in a very concrete and visual way.  Spend time at that level.  Then practice comparing the items on the sequence, using first, second, before, after language.  

 

Then, and this struck me as "ding ding ding," she says this is the same kind of concept as with "coldest, cold, warm, hot, hotter, hottest" and "small, medium, big."  Those are also sequences or (she uses another word I am forgetting) or the same kind of thing -- where you have a spread of things or sequence of things, need to be able to think of them, and need to be able to compare them. 

 

Actually, I am getting some good ideas.  It is new to me to see so many things all have a root cause in sequencing and have it explained that way.

 

She is not saying that this is the weakness for everyone -- but she is saying, if it is a weakness, then you can expect to see it show up in all these various places that don't seem like they have anything to do with sequencing, but actually rely on sequencing on some level.  

 

OneStepAtaTime -- I really doubt this would be a book worth looking at for you.  I think your daughter is way past this level.

 

OhElizabeth -- if you could borrow it from someone, I think it might be worth flipping through.  I do not know if there are other books with similar information that are better in a lot of ways -- I actually have some complaints/disagreements with this book.  But the parts that I think are good, are new information to me and I think will be helpful.  She makes a lot of broad statements that do not apply to my son, and she also takes a tone sometimes that I do not care for at all, and I think some things are not things that are the best way for my son.  But from reading the introduction -- it looks like she developed this book to help her own daughter, and I can see how everything in this book would help some kids -- and apparently it all was helpful to her daughter.  But I do not think her daughter and my son are necessarily very similar, so a lot of things might not work for him or might not be the best way.  But it is hard to say, too, b/c the skills it covers are so broad, and maybe in a few years it will be appropriate for my son to be doing some  things from this book that seem unlikely now.  

 

It is also a hard book to read, b/c it is organized, going from a pre-school/K level, and then 2 pages later you are in the stuff she recommends for 3rd grade (for that subject), and then two pages later you are in middle school or high school.  That is how it is organized -- which is pretty overwhelming to me.  

 

It is written  more for a therapist to easily flip through and find the skill level for different things, but it is hard on me as a parent, to see so many things -- it is very "information overload" and "aaaaahhh, so much to do."  But really -- what she talks about in 2 pages could be a year or two worth of learning -- and that is okay.  I was not realizing that at first, and it was a stressful book for that reason.  

 

But overall I think it is worth flipping through some time if you can borrow it, but not worth buying.  And, there could be better/different books with the same information, too.  This book was published in the early 1990s.  

[OneStepAtATime]

That's interesting, Lecka.  Going to re-read your post later and think upon what you said about the sequencing...thanks.  :)

[PeterPan]

Kecia, the psych specifically said he would dig in on sequencing so that's why it caught my eye. Maybe I'll wait and see what he recommends...

[PeterPan]

Lecka, the psych specifically said he would dig in on sequencing so that's why it caught my eye. Maybe I'll wait and see what he recommends...

[Lecka]

I would wait.  I still have questions about it in general, plus questions about how it relates to my child.  It is not a book I am in love with.  But -- worthwhile to look through, yes.  

 

I would love to hear what you hear when you hear it :)  I think that is likely to be much more informative.  

[LaughingCat]

I have seen (on this board?) mention of using a metal analog clock and magnetic markers to show passage of time  - it suggested that the normal "time timer" type of visual clock was a countdown timer and that did not give the impact as far as passage of the day (no doubt I am paraphrasing that poorly).  Anyway, I have been seriously considering buying this type of clock for DD the older as she is struggling with the concept of "only so much time left and you must use what remains wisely"

 

Found a  blog post on similar type of timer using a plastic clock and white board markers (I believe Sarah Ward that she lists uses the magnetic one - at least I found a metal clock sold on her site - but I couldn't find the blog(?) I've seen that detailed the use).

ETA: found it!  sarah ward tracknets brochure

[OneStepAtATime]

I have seen (on this board?) mention of using a metal analog clock and magnetic markers to show passage of time  - it suggested that the normal "time timer" type of visual clock was a countdown timer and that did not give the impact as far as passage of the day (no doubt I am paraphrasing that poorly).  Anyway, I have been seriously considering buying this type of clock for DD the older as she is struggling with the concept of "only so much time left and you must use what remains wisely"

 

Found a  blog post on similar type of timer using a plastic clock and white board markers (I believe Sarah Ward that she lists uses the magnetic one - at least I found a metal clock sold on her site - but I couldn't find the blog(?) I've seen that detailed the use).

ETA: found it!  sarah ward tracknets brochure

Really cool!  Thanks, LaughingCat!  :)

[Lecka]

I don't know what any of them are called, but people who work with my son have used phone apps that show an analog clock ticking down, as it counts down the shaded area on the analog clock gets smaller.  Maybe I can ask.  I agree -- it is really a better way to show the passage of time, it is a lot easier to see what "5 minutes left" looks like compare to "15 minutes left" -- one is bigger, one is smaller.  

 

I am not sure they are such an "a ha" for my son, but they say there are some kids where it helps a huge amount.  

[Lecka]

I don't know what any of them are called, but people who work with my son have used phone apps that show an analog clock ticking down, as it counts down the shaded area on the analog clock gets smaller.  Maybe I can ask.  I agree -- it is really a better way to show the passage of time, it is a lot easier to see what "5 minutes left" looks like compare to "15 minutes left" -- one is bigger, one is smaller.  

 

I am not sure they are such an "a ha" for my son, but they say there are some kids where it helps a huge amount.  

[Lecka]

http://www.friendshipcircle.org/blog/2012/11/06/20-visual-timers-for-children-with-special-needs/

 

I found this link with some more visual timers, I know I have seen my son use "Buddy's Timer" and it looks really good.  He is a little kid, though, it might be on the "too babyish" side.  But I have a great impression.  

 

I am not using a smart phone anymore, there was a lot of desire from my son to play games on it all the time, and I just do not want to always be dealing with that.  So -- I haven't really done it myself, I have just seen it.  

 

Edit:  When I have seen it with him, it has been on an iPad, and the iPad is propped up by him, and he is playing.  It is counting down to a transition.  When it gets to be less than 5 minutes (if it has been more than 5 minutes) we start to point out to him how much time is left.  

 

Kind-of o/t but maybe someone would like it for a younger kid :)

 

(Also, it shows "elapsed time" so sometimes we can point out how long he has gotten to do his desired activity -- I don't know if it is that helpful, but it seems like it helps him when he is going to be making a transition, to be able to see that he did get to spend that time, he can see the shading of the elapsed time, instead of maybe feeling like he didn't get a very long amount of time, when really he might have gotten a pretty good amount of time.)

[LaughingCat]

I had the time timer (the mechanical one)  and I liked it a lot (it broke a couple years ago).   I like the app versions less - seems like the device always turns itself off - or is not easy to see (lying flat) so needs extra work to check how much time is left.  And one general issue with any visual timer is you still have to remember look at it.   Seems obvious but if you are distracted then you are not thinking about looking.     

 

For myself, the thing that works best for being on time is an alarm with a 15 minute and 5 minute ahead of time warning (or more if I think it will be an issue).  And perhaps a checklist to remind me what I need to do/grab - although usually I am too scatterbrained to even remember the checklist and I'm just racing around grabbing :willy_nilly:

 

For my DD however one of the problems is there is no 'rush' mode  -- she doesn't have an "only <X> minutes left, better go on overdrive" mode. 

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

I had the time timer (the mechanical one)  and I liked it a lot (it broke a couple years ago).   I like the app versions less - seems like the device always turns itself off - or is not easy to see (lying flat) so needs extra work to check how much time is left.  And one general issue with any visual timer is you still have to remember look at it.   Seems obvious but if you are distracted then you are not thinking about looking.     

 

For myself, the thing that works best for being on time is an alarm with a 15 minute and 5 minute ahead of time warning (or more if I think it will be an issue).  And perhaps a checklist to remind me what I need to do/grab - although usually I am too scatterbrained to even remember the checklist and I'm just racing around grabbing :willy_nilly:

 

For my DD however one of the problems is there is no 'rush' mode  -- she doesn't have an "only <X> minutes left, better go on overdrive" mode. 

:lol:   This is my brother.  He isn't lazy.  He just doesn't have rush mode.  My dad was only about rush mode.  He wouldn't do anything unless it was rush mode.  My brother was the exact opposite.  Slow and steady turtle. No rush ability at all.  It drove Dad crazy.  He would laugh in exasperation and say when we were having to rush anywhere he felt like my brother was moving like cold molasses uphill.  :)

[geodob]

Not having a 'sense of the passage of time'.

Shouldn't be confused with sequential thinking, and remembering what comes next.

 

It is rather a difficulty with concieving of time as a 'quantity'?

Where a parallel to this, is a difficulty with 'exteroception'?

With this, people have no sense of how far 'things' are away from them?

So that as something gets closer to them?

While they observe it getting closer.

They have no sense of how close it actually is?

Where they only find out, when they bump into it.

Despite observing that it is getting closer?

 

So that for people without a 'sense of time'?

While they can see a hand on clock getting closer?

No sense of the actual difference between the hour, minute and second hands?

 

Though what I am thinking about?

Is with developing a 'kinesthetic' sense of time?

Which uses different regular 'physical activities' to concieve of time.

That would initially involve timing different activities, to define which ones to use?

 

For example, one thing that could be timed?

Is the time that it takes to go to the bathroom and brush ones teeth, and leave the bathroom?

Which perhaps might take about 5 minutes?

 

So that when you wrote at the beginning, that '10 minutes feels pretty much the same as an hour to her'?

She could rather think of 10 minutes?

As the time that it would take, to brush her teeth twice.

 

So that 5 and 10 minutes have something to relate them to.

 

Then with 15 and 30 minutes?

This would involve some daily walks for a week?

Walk from the house in a direction for 15 minutes.

Then turn around and walk home.  To make a total of 30 minutes.

Doing this daily for a week.

So that when says 15 minutes, she have something to relate it to.

 

But once this established?

Then timer with an alarm could be set, to go off each 5 minutes?

Which would probably go off each day, as she passed by the same houses.

 

So that quite soon. As she saw those houses ahead, and was getting closer to them?

This would feel 5 and 10 minutes getting closer, and 20 and 25 minutes, on the way back.

 

Then once this is established?

The next increment to establish, is 1 hour?

This could use 2 approaches?

Firstly, having returned home from the 30 minute walk?

Turn around and repeat it.

Where the houses at 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30.

Become also 35, 40, 45, 50, 55 ,60.

 

Secondly, doing a 30 minute walk one way, and then 30 back.

 

Once these different houses are associated with different times along the walk?

I'm quite sure that 10 minutes wont feel pretty much the same to her as an hour !

 

25 minutes being close to 30 minutes?

Will have real meaning to her, as she sees and feels it getting closer.

Where seconds will also be given some meaning, step by step.

 

Though this approach should come with a 'Warning'?

As walking 30 or 60 minutes a day,  has been shown to have a side effect, of increasing health.

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks, geodob.  You are right, she does not sense the passage of time.  She also struggles with sequential thinking and that adds to the problems but she really, genuinely does not seem to sense time passing.  No internal clock I guess.  

 

Although what is interesting is that she gets up at nearly the same time every morning and goes to bed at nearly the same time every night on her own power.  I have an alarm set at 915 where everyone has to clean up and put stuff away, brush teeth, get ready for bet, etc. but they can read books, listen to music or whatever in their own room afterwards.  And she almost always is asleep by 10:30 and up by 7 without needing an alarm.  Her body just tells her to.  As a child she had a terrible time sleeping.  She could not wind down and woke up dozens of times a night.  She didn't sleep more than 20 minutes a session the first two years of her life.  Honestly, she didn't even sleep soundly for more than 3 hours at a time until she was about 3 and even then that was erratic.  She didn't start sleeping well until this past year or so.

 

Love the suggestions and the clarification.  Thanks so much!

[PeterPan]

Onestep, your internal chronometer is EF.  Your rise/sleep/wake is adrenals and nutrition.

[LaughingCat]

:lol:   This is my brother.  He isn't lazy.  He just doesn't have rush mode.  My dad was only about rush mode.  He wouldn't do anything unless it was rush mode.  My brother was the exact opposite.  Slow and steady turtle. No rush ability at all.  It drove Dad crazy.  He would laugh in exasperation and say when we were having to rush anywhere he felt like my brother was moving like cold molasses uphill.   :)

My DH doesn't have rush mode - the difference is he has a great time sense.   He can tell himself to wake up at O'dark hundred and he will do it.   So he just naturally starts getting ready to go (or do whatever) at the right time.

 

One thing this thread has pointed out to me is that I have been trying to teach DD 'rush mode' and not 'time sense'.

[OneStepAtATime]

My DH doesn't have rush mode - the difference is he has a great time sense.   He can tell himself to wake up at O'dark hundred and he will do it.   So he just naturally starts getting ready to go (or do whatever) at the right time.

 

One thing this thread has pointed out to me is that I have been trying to teach DD 'rush mode' and not 'time sense'.

Wow, interesting observation!  I must ponder this a bit myself....

[PeterPan]

My DH doesn't have rush mode - the difference is he has a great time sense.   He can tell himself to wake up at O'dark hundred and he will do it.   So he just naturally starts getting ready to go (or do whatever) at the right time.

 

One thing this thread has pointed out to me is that I have been trying to teach DD 'rush mode' and not 'time sense'.

My dh is like this!  That man can tell you what time it is, usually pretty accurately, even in the middle of the night!  Whoa to the wife who disturbs him ever so quietly, by coming in at 3 am, because he'll know EXACTLY when you came in!  Me, I don't even know what DAY it is when I wake up, lol.  I wake up very ON btw, totally mentally alert.  Just my chronometer is screwy, lol.