Scribing for kids with motor issues

[Pegs]

My DS is still young yet (five at the end of the year), but I'm starting to think about how to best support him as he begins to do more seat work. He has incredibly hypermobile fingers with swan neck deformities, and hyperextends several joints just using a touch screen. He can do a little bit of wobbly drawing and writing with felt tip pens, but can't apply enough pressure to use pencils or crayons.

 

I'm aware of and employ various tools to promote correct positioning, and techniques for building strength in the core, shoulders, and hands. We'll keep working on it. But for now, I'm wondering if it would be appropriate to scribe for him for any written tasks as they come up - apart from specific handwriting work, of course. I'd hate for this to hold him back in unrelated tasks.

 

Has anyone here scribed long term for a child working at or above grade level? Or decided not to? Would you mind sharing how it went for you, or the reasoning behind your decisions around this?

 

Thank you!

 

[Lecka]

www.handwriting-solutions.com  is something I was given by the OT at my son's school (I afterschool extensively in reading). 

 

I scribe for him and he has some scribing with his teacher at school (through completing 3rd grade last year).  He has not started the technological accommodations, he has just had scribing as needed.  He happens not to have motor problems with his handwriting, it is other things with him, so he does not have pain.

 

Where I am, an OT is someone you could ask about this kind of thing. 

 

I do not only scribe (not needed) but I scribe and I am in favor of it.  My son is working at grade level.

 

A lot of older kids use voice dictation software, but my son has not yet.  Partly he is not super-independent and I am told at school they like kids to be more independent/mature b/c they want them to be able to go and use the software on their own (or be close to being able to do so once they have learned how to use it).  They told me some kids are ready sooner but probably next year in 4th grade for my son. 

 

When you do handwriting, you don't have to start with pens even (though great if that is right for him).  He could learn/practice letter formation in ways that don't use a pen, and then he wouldn't have to hold anything.  There are ways to work on tracing and making arm motions for the letter formations, to help with letter formations, and not have to be dealing with the pencils and pens. 

 

It is, as far as I can tell, a best practice.  My son is more dyslexia/dysgraphia (or maybe just dysgraphia at this point) and scribing is a recommendation.  Other options are to do a lot of oral work instead of written work, there may be curriculum or structural choices you can make, that change the format of some things, so that they do not require as much written work. 

 

Written tasks don't just come up, someone chooses them.  Some things do get an added benefit from using writing.  Or -- you are specifically working on writing.   That is where I think scribing is good.  Kids can still learn how to write even if they are not the ones writing every word down on a piece of paper.  Plus -- maybe they can't go from 0 to 100, maybe they need a smaller series of steps, with some support, and as less support is needed, they can do more.  That is more the kind of situation I have.  I do think scribing is a means to an end, where what I want is for my son to make progress in his learning and ability and skills.  If he is making progress as I scribe for him, I am pleased.  And, that is what I feel like most of the time.  Once in a while I feel like it is a waste of time or not helpful, but then it is usually not scribing itself that is the problem, but some other issue. 

 

But there are a lot of things where writing is one choice, but not inherently a better choice.  There are times where a workbook might want written responses, but there is no real reason not to cover that material in an activity or make a video or some other "creative" thing.  There are also times when it is convenient for a teacher with a lot of students to be able to give worksheets to an aide to grade for her, b/c she may not have time to spend with each student to hear their oral responses.  My son gets oral responses with his teacher even in school at times, b/c she does make time for it with him.  But it would be hard to do it with a class of 25 where 20+ kids are able to do the worksheets and benefit from them.  But imo just because written work is appropriate for many kids as well as a good classroom management technique, that does not make it better for many things.  I do think it is better for some things, but I don't think it is always better for things where it may just be more convenient or traditional.   

 

 

 

[TxMama]

Absolutely, scribe for him.

 

My 12 yo is dysgraphic. In addition to handwriting issues, typing is coming extremely slow for him. Other than handwriting work needed for spelling ( he is dyslexic as well) and typing practice, I either scribe for him for small projects and  he is learning to use a speech-to-text software for longer written assignments. We did not introduce the speech -to-text software until this year, so lots of scribing by me has been done in the past.

 

He was formally evaluated this past year. Prior to this testing, I was having him dictate a written narration to me than having him re-write it. I thought this would help him with his writing or help him learn to get his thoughts on paper.   His neuropsych told me that I should stop this nonsense, busywork for him! She also told me that I should stop handwriting practice (since this is a good as it will get), use handwriting for specific tasks ( like spelling related to his dyslexia), and focus on typing. She also told me that his dysgraphia is significant enough that typing might not be an option for writing for him. She said to spend a year of daily practice on typing, then to be willing to become fully invested in speech to text if his typing speed remains slow.

 

I have a much happier kid since starting to use these recommendations. He writes non-stop and enjoys composing stories.

 

Best of luck!

[Laura Corin]

I scribed for Calvin for years, slowly building up the amount he wrote and typed.  It was a very good way for him to be able to express himself without the mechanics getting in the way.  He still writes a bit slowly but types at full speed, so everything has come together.

 

L

[Dmmetler]

My big suggestion (as an adult with fine motor issues)- get an assistive tech eval and paperwork documenting assistive tech and instruction on how to use it. In most settings, there won't be someone available to scribe, so it's a useful skill set to develop, and my experience is that once you're comfortable doing, say, the writing process via speech recognition or on a computer, y can adapt to other assistive tech as technology evolves.

 

For standardized testing, if scribing is allowed, you have to dictate everything, and I mean everything, down to the last comma. Anything beyond basic vocabulary has to be spelled out, and even then, it sometimes isn't right. It's exhausting to do, and it's so much easier if you can type or use dragon dictate and then edit on a prepared system, so developing those skills to adapt to different technology really makes a difference.

 

I also have to say that it's gotten so much better. When I was in K-12. I was mostly stuck with using whatever classroom computer was available, or doing everything orally, and I learned to get by without taking notes. In college, I had a luggable computer strapped to a luggage cart to haul through campus, and had to go to the SSD center to do all testing. Now, I carry an iPad with me, in a large but not overly noticeable purse, and I can do most writing on that and then beam it to my PC or printer. The technology has come so far in about 30 years-it's only going to improve. And the other big difference is that now it's very acceptable to carry around an iPad or phone and take notes on it (my 9 yr old is going to a conference this summer, and the official app has a place for note taking on your laptop, iPad, or phone) many tests are going to being done on the computer anyway, so it's no longer something that it takes an act of congress to arrange, and it's just so much easier. Checks have been largely replaced by credit cards, and even signing a credit card slip is going away. Handwriting is still a useful skill for a lot of reasons, but it's becoming much easier to get by if you struggle with it without it being a major barrier.

[OneStepAtATime]

Definitely scribe.  And also look into assistive technologies as was previously mentioned.  Doing both of those things here.  There is NOTHING wrong with scribing for a child that needs that help.  You want them to still be able to think and function at the ability level of their brain without the physical body holding them back, for whatever reason.   Yes, keep working on writing.  But work on it separately from content.  Everything the PPs said is very true.  All wonderful people who's advice I have read and used..

 

Big hugs and best wishes....

[Heathermomster]

Scribe, scribe, and scribe some more.  Welcome to the boards!

[AimeeM]

I definitely scribe for my little one with fine motor issues. He is advanced in maths, but can't yet write (he's 5), so I scribe (as per the recommendations on this board). I do have him practice handwriting - but it's separate; I do not require he write for any of his lessons outside of direct handwriting lessons (and those are short).

[AmyontheFarm]

I scribe frequently here also.  Welcome. :)

[Pegs]

Definitely scribe.  And also look into assistive technologies as was previously mentioned.  Doing both of those things here.  There is NOTHING wrong with scribing for a child that needs that help.  You want them to still be able to think and function at the ability level of their brain without the physical body holding them back, for whatever reason.   Yes, keep working on writing.  But work on it separately from content.  Everything the PPs said is very true.  All wonderful people who's advice I have read and used..

 

Big hugs and best wishes....

 

This was my gut feeling about it all, yes. :)

 

Thank you all, for your thoughtful, and incredibly encouraging responses! I feel much better about powering on through workbooky stuff that interests him, without requiring any writing. I'll look into speech recognition tech once his speech is a bit clearer - I bet there'll be something really nifty available on the ipad by the time he's ready for it (if there isn't already). 

[Pegs]

www.handwriting-solutions.com  is something I was given by the OT at my son's school (I afterschool extensively in reading). 

 

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This looks great - thanks heaps.

 

I see what you're saying about writing tasks not always being necessary or useful, and I agree. The kind of tasks and activities I have in mind for DS over the next few years are things like narrations from our read alouds, recording observations from nature walks and science work, and letters to friends and family. I'm not big on busywork, and actually, now that I think about it and reread your post, we'll probably do workbooks orally, or not at all. DS is at that wonderful soak-knowledge-up-like-a-sponge stage, and seems to just know things having heard them once, so it's not like he needs to spend time and energy on boring activities, or read over his notes in order to commit anything to memory.

[OneStepAtATime]

This looks great - thanks heaps.

 

I see what you're saying about writing tasks not always being necessary or useful, and I agree. The kind of tasks and activities I have in mind for DS over the next few years are things like narrations from our read alouds, recording observations from nature walks and science work, and letters to friends and family. I'm not big on busywork, and actually, now that I think about it and reread your post, we'll probably do workbooks orally, or not at all. DS is at that wonderful soak-knowledge-up-like-a-sponge stage, and seems to just know things having heard them once, so it's not like he needs to spend time and energy on boring activities, or read over his notes in order to commit anything to memory.

 

My DS with dysgraphia thrives with oral instruction and response.  When he has to write it all out himself so much of the richness of his thoughts is completely lost and it is PAINFULLY slow.  And it is so discouraging to him.  Scribing gave him a chance to show what he is really capable of without the physical act hindering his ability to think,  Separating out the physical writing also got him more excited about actual writing, since he wasn't having to think through content/spelling/grammar/etc AND try to form letters/words/sentences.

 

Good luck and best wishes!  :)

[srs]

dmmetler, who is the right professional for an assistive tech eval? We need one of those!

 

I scribe for my daughter when she needs it, which has been less and less each year, although handwriting is still a major challenge. Her doctor told me two useful things: have her be able to sign her name, and only ask for writing if it has a purpose. I dropped handwriting practice early this year (late first grade) and it has been such a relief to both of us. Her writing is legible, and that is good enough.

[Dmmetler]

I'd start with an OT-it's usually a specialization from OT. My experience is that if your current specialists can't recommend someone, try calling the office of vocational rehabilitation, Department of Rehabilitative services, or whatever the adult services program is called in your state, and ask them, because it's something often done for vocational placement purposes. They won't cover anyone before their late teens, but they'll know who would be good in your area. Then, once you find out what providers work with assistive tech, call offices and feel them out to see if you can find someone who has a decent number of pediatric clients. Having said that, one of the best providers I ever worked with as a teenager focused on adult stroke and TBI patients-the folks who tended to work with people with life-long disabilities often felt like they were selling me short, while those who worked with adults who had lost functioning tended to be more focused on "what do you want to be able to do and feel you can do? OK, I can work with that!".

 

 

[srs]

I'd start with an OT-it's usually a specialization from OT. My experience is that if your current specialists can't recommend someone, try calling the office of vocational rehabilitation, Department of Rehabilitative services, or whatever the adult services program is called in your state, and ask them, because it's something often done for vocational placement purposes. They won't cover anyone before their late teens, but they'll know who would be good in your area. Then, once you find out what providers work with assistive tech, call offices and feel them out to see if you can find someone who has a decent number of pediatric clients. Having said that, one of the best providers I ever worked with as a teenager focused on adult stroke and TBI patients-the folks who tended to work with people with life-long disabilities often felt like they were selling me short, while those who worked with adults who had lost functioning tended to be more focused on "what do you want to be able to do and feel you can do? OK, I can work with that!".

Thank you! Interesting the different outlooks based on lifelong disability versus traumatic event. Makes sense, but it's a whole new (good!) way of looking at how to find help from specialists and what that help looks like.