WWYD...Pre-teen defiance

[Cheryl in NM]

I sure hope you gals have some suggestions! What am I saying? Of course you will!

 

Here's the situation:

We go to a very small church. Ds is 12.5 and there is a 13 yo girl, the only other kids his age at church. We've talked to him before about no dating/girlfriends until he's 16. We've explained that our beliefs are that dating is to see what kind of person you'd like to be married to and that dating should be chaste. Ds was not raised in a church, he's always been homeschooled and hasn't been exposed to a lot of girls just because the circles we've been in haven't had many girls his age. Okay so that's the background. I started getting suspicious when ds started treating me really badly, dirty looks, bad attitude, delayed obedience. I know he's in puberty that's part of it, but he also started spending alot of time emailing "a friend". So I read his email. He had asked the girl in church to be his girlfriend and she had said yes. I opted to let it go because they never had the opportunity to be alone...so I thought. Then I realized that during our fellowship time when I thought they were with the younger kids they were in a dark corner of a sunday school room kissing. That was a few weeks ago. At that time Dh and I sat him down and I told him that noticed he was spending a lot of time with "A" and they were often in a dark SS room and that was inappropriate for children not of dating age. I told him I expected it to stop. I've been monitoring his email since and they've still managed to find time and corners to smooch in. She told him that I don't like her and he went along for the ride. I have know idea where she'd get this idea since I've always smiled and said hello. I've made an effort to befriend her family since we started going to this church last Nov. since they are the only ones with kids.

 

So now we have:

1. disobedience - having a girlfriend is not allowed and delayed obedience

2. lying - saying he doesn't have a girlfriend. He recently started phoning her on his cell phone while he was out of town with relatives. When I found out he told me that she was tutoring him in math. Not answering his phone when I call him (he was on the phone with her)

 

Here are consequences that I'm thinking about:

 

1. disconnect phone for at least 1 year - when he was given the phone 2 months ago he was told that if he didn't answer every call from me or dad every time the phone would be gone. I feel if we don't take the phone away we would not be following through and wouldn't be consistent which would lead to even more disrespect. Dh thinks we should give him 1 more chance.

2. disable the internet from his laptop and only allowed internet access with me sitting there and under my user name on my pc. About 6 months ago we caught him looking at porn (we now have filters!) because "he wanted to know what a woman looked like." We took internet away for 3 months and told him he had one more chance. Dh wants to give him one more chance.

 

Dh is afraid that being too strict will cause problems because it did with Dh's daughter (my step), but that was a different situation because the ex was always in the middle causing trouble and undermining our authority. Anyway, I think we need to hit it hard now and ds not having internet and a cell phone simplifies life while following through with previously stated consequences.

 

I told dh I'd be willing to do it his way if he absolutely thought it was best, but I really don't agree with it and I told dh why. I think with a teen if you draw a line in the sand and then change the line after they cross it then you will spend the next several years struggling.

 

I want ds to know that disobeying and deceiving us was wrong. He's been looking us in the face and lying to us. That's so worriesome to me. He used to be a compliant child. I want him to be obedient to us even when he doesn't agree with it. I know this is possible! I know people have done it! I just don't know how to accomplish it!:confused:

 

Help!!!!:banghead:

 

Thanks so much!

[Impish]

I'm inclined to agree with you, and hold to the consequences that were promised to the child in the beginning when he was given the cell phone, and when he was caught misusing the laptop previously.

[Catherine]

is unlikely to achieve the result I suspect you are hoping for.

 

Let's just say I have some experience in this area. When faced with a very rebellious teen who was getting into trouble, we took a close look at our family and especially, at our relationship with this child. We were forced to conclude that he had drifted away from us emotionally. We took strong measures to address this, many measures. It has been quite successful. I don't want to get into too much detail on a public board. PM me if you want to.

 

If you haven't read the book Hold Onto Your Kids: What Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers, I recommend it. Raising teens in our culture is quite difficult in some cases. This book explains why and what to do about it. It is far more useful than almost any parenting book I've seen.

 

At age, 13, a kid has got to have some reason to hang onto parents, and punishment is not going to be as effective as love. That's what worked for us, anyway. Best of luck to you.

[Cheryl in NM]

Thanks! Dh and I are going to discuss it more tonight.

 

I talked to the girl's mom and she wasn't aware that they were kissing and of the intensity of the relationship (I love you, can't wait to see, can't live without). She's going to talk to her husband, then both families are going to sit down and talk. She's inclined to let them continue to be bf/gf because it's natural and they really like each other. I guess if ds loses his cell phone and internet he'll only see her supervised at church. Since when is the parent of the boy more diligent than the parent of the girl?! The mom actually told me she wasn't worried about this!:001_huh: Am I nuts or are they too young?

[Rosie_0801]

It sounds like you and hubby need to have a bit of a chat. It doesn't sound as though the two of you are on the same page regarding expectations and consequences. It may be that it's his turn to take the front line with discipline. If it works out that way, he'd better make sure he's clear about his expectations that you are to be treated with respect. It sounds like your son sees you as the meanie and his dad as the pushover. Since your hubby also sees you as the meanie, it might be time to reassess and see if your parenting ideas are still valid. Unless you and hubby agree, and I mean really agree, not "yes dear, whatever you say dear" your son can keep up his bad behaviour.

 

BTW, I'd be seriously bouncing any kid who's lying to me, but I'd be wondering if it was a symptom that I was being too strict. I wouldn't be telling the kid that until after having that particular conversation with hubby and re-setting my expectations.

 

Rosie

[Starr]

I find that early teen follow through is helpful when they become older teens. :) Hang in there Mom!

[Kathy in MD]

I think it's worth discussing with him the rules you made prior to his making her his gf, stressing the age 16 restriction. Stress both the age problem and what you honestly like about her. Say your sorry that she has mistaken your concern about his age as dislike for her. (remember that her statements could be either a genuine belief, or being manipulative) Remind him that these rules were made before he developed an interest (that you were aware of). I'd stress the emotional side of dating.

 

Also, have you discussed the problem with her parents? It might be easier if both sets of parents could have a joint discussion of the problem with the 2, after agreeing to joint restrictions. Of course it's possible that her parents tacitly or openly approve of early dating.

 

There are a couple of rules or things my mother and my best friend's mother had/did during our pre-dating and early dating days that you may be able to adapt once the consequnces for breaking your rules have been paid. I was told that I couldn't date alone until I was 16. Group dates, not double dates, however were allowed. However I think that mom would have allowed a double date on occassion. I didn't do group dates, but when I turned 15 I did have a boyfriend. I was allowed to see him only at home, even though my mother sisters didn't like him, (for good reasons I had to agree later). I had a few hints when dating him, it came out when we went our seperate ways. This way my mom could gradually loosen the reins, but still keep a close eye on things. She also didn't drive me into total rebellion. Uh, group dates would have included public things, like bowling, not going to homes with the parents gone.

 

My gf's mother took a different tack with her dd's first bf. She picked up that her dd was not really into the bf, as much wanting to establish her independence. So bf's mother started praising him to the sky, until bf couldn't stand it anymore. Knowing what her mother was upto, she still broke up with him. He was just too, too perfect.;)

 

I've found out that handling these problems are easier when you live in the country, as I did as a teen, and it's relatively easy to restrict access. Living in a very large community where young teens have a large group of friends that are easily accessible, makes it more difficult to monitor contact, either accidental or on purpose. It's probably time for me to do some gentle probing and discussion again. That's how I've been handling it with my very rebellious teen. Suggestions always go over better.

[Tree House Academy]

Honestly...I think you are going a bit too far. They are kissing. When I was 14, I was doing a lot more than kissing (not condoning this...just saying that kissing is not so bad). I don't see anything wrong with teenagers kissing. They are not in a position to take it further (like sex) - especially not at CHURCH.

 

What I do find inappropriate is using church to make out. But, if my mom had been a "you can't see him, don't date, I will take everything away from you and make you submit to my authority" type, then I very well may have done whatever I could, whenever I could. I am just being honest here.

 

I think that this is totally normal for teenagers to be interested and experiment with love and what it feels like to like a girl/guy, hold hands, and kiss. When my older son is to that stage, I will just make sure that I am with him, supervising as best I can. But kissing...well, at your ds's age, I am not shocked.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Tree House Academy

[Sunshine State Sue]

I went into a tizzy when ds (then almost 13) got his first "girlfriend". I called my sister-in-law in a panic and she told me that junior high romances last an average of 3 weeks. It was very true in our situation. So, how long have they been bf/gf?

 

This is my attempt to calm you down.

 

A cell phone is a privilege. He abused it, he should lose it. Not too sure about the internet for this situation.

 

I can't believe that they are finding a dark SS room. It wouldn't happen at our church. Where are the adult supervisors?

 

Teen Proofing and Boundaries with Kids are 2 good books as well. In Teen Proofing, he talks about giving the kids enough rope to hang themselves with.

 

Good luck!

[Cheryl in NM]

Honestly...I think you are going a bit too far. They are kissing. When I was 14, I was doing a lot more than kissing (not condoning this...just saying that kissing is not so bad). I don't see anything wrong with teenagers kissing. They are not in a position to take it further (like sex) - especially not at CHURCH.

 

What I do find inappropriate is using church to make out. But, if my mom had been a "you can't see him, don't date, I will take everything away from you and make you submit to my authority" type, then I very well may have done whatever I could, whenever I could. I am just being honest here.

 

I think that this is totally normal for teenagers to be interested and experiment with love and what it feels like to like a girl/guy, hold hands, and kiss. When my older son is to that stage, I will just make sure that I am with him, supervising as best I can. But kissing...well, at your ds's age, I am not shocked.

 

My ds is 12(13 in Oct),I was shocked. I noticed some of the physical changes and attitude changes and I knew he was starting to notice girls. I was shocked he was actually kissing one.

 

I get what you are saying about being too punitive. I have struggled with that in the past. Which is why I might let Dh take the lead on this one. But then, shouldn't our children submit to our authority? I'm sincere here, or sincerely confused. My mother was overly strict and my father was a go-along guy. He just did what mom did unless you made him mad then he yelled or sometimes hit. So I struggle with being to controling and punitive. I feel that at 12 kids are really trying to decide what's right and wrong and if they are going to abide by that. If ds is so wrapped up in a girl that he can't see straight, how can he define who he is? I would expect this behavior around 14, but I'm at a loss with it at 12!

[Kathy in MD]

It sounds like you and hubby need to have a bit of a chat. It doesn't sound as though the two of you are on the same page regarding expectations and consequences. It may be that it's his turn to take the front line with discipline. If it works out that way, he'd better make sure he's clear about his expectations that you are to be treated with respect. It sounds like your son sees you as the meanie and his dad as the pushover. Since your hubby also sees you as the meanie, it might be time to reassess and see if your parenting ideas are still valid. Unless you and hubby agree, and I mean really agree, not "yes dear, whatever you say dear" your son can keep up his bad behaviour.

 

BTW, I'd be seriously bouncing any kid who's lying to me, but I'd be wondering if it was a symptom that I was being too strict. I wouldn't be telling the kid that until after having that particular conversation with hubby and re-setting my expectations.

 

Rosie

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Dh and I just had another "discussion" along these lines. And this type of thing has been going on most of the time since ds was a toddler. I know that I can be too strict. I also know that I often become overly strict because I become so angry at my dh's refusal to set any guidelines or try to do any corrections. I try to alter my behavior and rely more on natural consequences, but dh sees that as being rude to ds. So he reinforces the rude behavior by immediately ignoring the consequenses I spelled out for poor to bad behavior and undermines me. And that's minor, compared to what he's done to me in the past. Ds has no respect for any disciplinary actions I take. And dh won't discipline.

 

Unfortunately it shows in ds's behavior when anyone trys to correct his performance or behavior. And dh refuses to see the damage he does by letting ds do what ever he wants. If needed, take parenting classes alone or together to help resolve these problems. My dh started to improve only after taking a class. I took the same class a couple of sessions later and found it very helpful. It's time though for both of us to take the next level class or two. And for me to point out the problems that ds has that dh himself has complained about and see how we need to alter our style of correction.

 

Ok, time to stop ranting :rant:

Edited April 23, 2009 by Kathy in MD

[Cheryl in NM]

I went into a tizzy when ds (then almost 13) got his first "girlfriend". I called my sister-in-law in a panic and she told me that junior high romances last an average of 3 weeks. It was very true in our situation. So, how long have they been bf/gf?

 

This is my attempt to calm you down.

 

A cell phone is a privilege. He abused it, he should lose it. Not too sure about the internet for this situation.

 

I can't believe that they are finding a dark SS room. It wouldn't happen at our church. Where are the adult supervisors?

 

Teen Proofing and Boundaries with Kids are 2 good books as well. In Teen Proofing, he talks about giving the kids enough rope to hang themselves with.

 

Good luck!

 

This has been going on about 2 months. Our church is very small. It's one small building with a santuary, a kitchen and a sunday school room. So while the adults are drinking coffee and such in the kitchen area they go in the ss room, the younger kids are outside playing and the older kids are either with the adults or in pastor's office. Someone could walk in on them at any time! Sometimes it has happened during confirmation (like catechism). They are the only 2 so they are dropped off. I need to talk to the pastor and find out how they have time alone to be kissing.

 

Thanks for the book recs. I really want to let go when I need to, but I'm terrified of letting go too soon.

[Cheryl in NM]

It sounds like you and hubby need to have a bit of a chat. It doesn't sound as though the two of you are on the same page regarding expectations and consequences. It may be that it's his turn to take the front line with discipline. If it works out that way, he'd better make sure he's clear about his expectations that you are to be treated with respect. It sounds like your son sees you as the meanie and his dad as the pushover. Since your hubby also sees you as the meanie, it might be time to reassess and see if your parenting ideas are still valid. Unless you and hubby agree, and I mean really agree, not "yes dear, whatever you say dear" your son can keep up his bad behaviour.

 

BTW, I'd be seriously bouncing any kid who's lying to me, but I'd be wondering if it was a symptom that I was being too strict. I wouldn't be telling the kid that until after having that particular conversation with hubby and re-setting my expectations.

 

Rosie

 

I agree with you regarding dh and I's parenting differences. It has been a huge struggle with both my step-kids and ds. After reading some responses I'm inclined to take the phone away because of a clear cut rule that was broken and give another chance on the internet maybe after a restriction.

 

What do you mean by "bouncing" a kid who lied to you. How, exactly, do you deal with it and how has it worked? I'm afraid the lying might be a symptom of an overly controlling mama!

 

Thanks so much for your input!

[Remudamom]

I don't think you're nuts. I do think it completely unacceptable for him to have a girlfriend at that age. Mine would have been busted, capital B. No phone.

 

The porn thing is a huge issue. No computer. None.

[PinkInTheBlue]

Keep in mind this is my opinion, ok?

 

I highly recommend taking his cell phone for a minimum of a year or indefinitely. Too much potential for trouble. Been there, done that. Nobody in this house will have a cell phone until they are driving age and I will monitor it like a hawk. You said you'd take it away, follow through.

 

Also, there is no way in this world a child would a private computer with internet in their possession. As with the cell phone but much, much worse, there is too much opportunity for trouble. He's proven he can't handle the responsibility of the cell phone, the internet, or the girlfriend. Take them away. He'll be mad as fire and probably think he hates you but it's not your job to be his buddy and prevent him from being mad at you. I thank God for the times my parents did this when they knew I really needed it.

 

Please remember, he's proven he can't handle the responsibility. He's not ready for the weight, take it off. :)

Edited April 23, 2009 by PinkInTheBlue

[Rosie_0801]

What do you mean by "bouncing" a kid who lied to you. I'm afraid the lying might be a symptom of an overly controlling mama!

 

Thanks so much for your input!

 

"Bouncing" as in "Busted with a capital B" as Remudamom put it. Making sure the child in question feels thoroughly subdued afterwards...

 

The lying probably is a symptom of over strenuous parenting, but not on this particular issue. There were clear rules and he knew very well he was breaking them. None of that is negotiable, even if you and hubby decided to relax the rules for the future. He did break rules and ought to cop whatever the consequences are. I would suggest your hubby is the one to tell ds what the joint decision on that was. It sounds like your son needs a bit of experience in "dad is tough too, so don't mess with him."

I would hazard a guess that the lying stems from your son feeling that he can't do *anything* right, so he might as well do nothing right. If you tend to micromanage a bit, he might be feeling like you have no respect for him, so he won't show you any either. (Only guessing here, but that's what my mum and brother were like.) Perhaps going over the rules and letting him know exactly what is expected would help; what is not at all negotiable and any breaches will result in his life being made very unpleasant, and what may be negotiable if he presents his case politely. First though, you have to see what your hubby thinks. From experience it's easier for the missus to relax her standards a little than it is to force hubby to enforce her rules. On the other hand, it's not acceptable for men to have no standards of behaviour for their kids. That's wimpy.

 

Rosie

[Cheryl in NM]

Thanks so much for everyone's advice. I was able to learn from every post!

 

Dh and I talked to ds last night.

 

1. Ds lost the phone permanently.

2. Ds is grounded from the internet for an indeterminate amount of time

3. Ds will not be alone with the girl

 

These are the concrete consequences. We also talked about respect and how he wasn't respecting himself or the girl by sneaking off to have a phsical relationship. He wasn't respecting us by disobeying and lying. We told him we understood his feelings and that were natural but that at his age it is inappropriate to show affection by kissing. He said that he knew he was doing wrong and would eventually get caught and was prepared to deal with whatever circumstances there were. So he wasn't surprised to receive some punishment. We made sure to place the emphasis on ds not being able to understand the implications of his action due to inexperience and we made sure to tell him it was normal and we loved him and he is a good kid. He thought he was a bad kid so we realized that we focus too much on what he does wrong and not enough on the good things so we'll be changing that. It was a really good talk!

 

I talked to the girl's mom; she didn't know about the 5:30 am phone calls and kissing, otherwise she was okay with the relationship. She's going to talk to her husband and then both families are going to get together with the kids and lay out some boundaries. That might be tricky since our family seems to be stricter about this than hers, but we'll see.

 

Thanks again to everyone who offered up advice!