Childcare kid spitting at people

[phathui5]

Hey smart ladies,

 

One of the kids I watch has had behavior problems since I started watching her. Hitting, pushing, pinching. She's spit at people before, but today she spit at dd three times in a row before I could come get her (we were out back and I was watching from the porch) and then when I put her in time-out she spit at me.

 

The kid is three and a half. I've tried talking to her mom and her mom didn't realize the behavior was an issue. I had thought maybe she didn't do it around her mom, but then I saw her hitting kids at gymnastics when her mom was there.

 

I even told her mom a couple weeks ago that if the child was hurting people when she was here (at my house) and her mom didn't take her out of the room, that would be the last time I watched her.

 

The past couple weeks, I've cracked down more, putting her in time-out every time she hurts someone, but it doesn't seem to be signifigantly improving.

 

Ideas? Advice?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Read your post wrong. Nevermind.

Edited April 4, 2009 by Jean in Newcastle

[phathui5]

Ah! Don't erase your advice. What did you have before you realized you read it wrong?

 

I need some ideas.

[Miss Sherry]

Hopefully someone with some insight will see this and post.

 

I would find this behavior to be very disturbing and I would be wondering what is going on with this child and in the home. I do not believe that an emotionally healthy child would be behaving this way. Hurting other children regularly and spitting on them is very hostile and disrespectful. I would definatley have a talk with the parent and ask her what she does to correct this behavior and what she recommends that you do.

I really think that it will take a lot of extra time and attention to address the needs of this child. If you cannot focus on her because you already have other children in your home my opinion is that she should not be in your home. It really is not creating a healthy environment for all of the children in your home to have her there doing these kinds of things. I would not expose my own children to this behavior.

The Mom should get some professional advice to help her with this child.

[dhudson]

I would talk to the Mom and explain to her that if this continued that her child would no longer be welcome at my home. I would ask if there was a parenting strategy that the Mom uses that I could use to be consistent in my home.

 

But, truthfully, kids in my home follow my rules and they will get disciplined in the same way I discipline my children. For spitting, I would put the child in a corner for time out and then give them apple cider vinegar for any mouth offense. ( I know it sounds harsh but apple cider vinegar is good for the child and it tastes yucky and is a great deterrent for spitting, biting, whining and tone issues) For hitting, a child would be in the corner for a looooong time and then would lose the privilege of playing with the other children for a certain amount of time and would have to stay by me.

 

Any child who comes into my home gets a run down of the rules before they are allowed to play and has to tell me that they understand the rules. I set out my expectations and then discipline swiftly if necessary. It generally works and we avoid any further problems.

Edited April 4, 2009 by dhudson
trying to type while a massive nerf battle is happening around me

[SonshineLearner]

When I called Love and Logic, they said 20 minutes time-out for hurting people. That was for a 3 year old.

It's suppose to "hurt". Or, no movies at home that night... For my son his really bad "consequence" is no wii.

It has to be something they care about. No dessert after lunch? If you don't already have treats you can pull, start some...

Also, you can have them do hassle chores...cleaning baseboards with some water and a rag. Moving rocks for 15 minutes.... Explain to the mom that you need the child's hurting habits to stop. (and you don't want your children to start...say...biting in response...)

 

Carrie

[Jean in Newcastle]

Ah! Don't erase your advice. What did you have before you realized you read it wrong?

 

I need some ideas.

 

LOL! I had thought that you had already talked to the mom about this behavior and had told her that you wouldn't watch the child if it continued. So my advice was that you needed to back up what you said - by not watching the child anymore. But then I realized that your talk with the mom had just been about the child's bad behavior while she was there. . .

[RJH]

If it were my daycare child, she would be in time out every single time she did this. And each time she does it, she would get a longer time out. No playing, no books, no toys, just boring, by herself time out. I would talk to the mom, and tell her if it's not improved in 2 weeks she will have to find other care.

[Pamela H in Texas]

First, I would put her on a shorter "leash" so to speak. It is the CAREGIVER's job to make sure, for the safety of the other kids and the learning of the child in question, to make sure the child NEVER manages to make contact for hitting, biting, and pinching. I say this as one that had a biter/headbanger as well as one who has had 15 kids at a time in her charge. I KNOW it's hard but the FASTEST way to extinguish behavior is to not let it happen AT ALL.

 

Second, she obviously is lacking APPROPRIATE communication skills. I would IMMEDIATELY start working on this PROACTIVELY (ie, not waiting for a situation, but during circle time, story time, etc). One great program is Raising a Thinking Child by Myrna Shure. It's VERY easy to implement in just minutes per day.

 

Third, spitting....I'd hand her a cup and have her spit into it for 3 minutes straight. I'd also offer her the choice of reaching for a cup (or going into the bathroom) for that purpose. Actually, the only time I've even seen this done and it worked after a 2nd time, it was into a cup BUT *I* would prefer having her spit into a sink or toilet as those are the only places ladies spit anyway (toilet if throwing up and sink if brushing teeth).

 

Lastly, how structured is your childcare situation? Do you have a predictable schedule? Are there routines surrounding key times of day? Basically, is your childcare clear with the boundaries so the kids can feel secure while having appropriate freedom? Studies show that 84% of behavior can be controlled with the "class" setup and routine alone! And a tougher kiddo needs that security more than anyone.

 

If you step up your discipline (teaching/guiding, prevention, supervision, correction), she'll straighten up. Even kids who are absolute terrors for their parents do just fine with me. But I'm on top of things, run a tight ship, and am consistent. I never use things like time out or whatever. I would guess that if you are firm and consistent, you could have this under control and her functioning pretty typically within 2 to 3 weeks tops. She may, for awhile, need a LITTLE more supervision and guidance, but it shouldn't be an overwhelming amount if you'll just nip it in the bud. BTW, IME, punishing her each time is likely to be a waste of time and energy and probably largely inappropriate. She just needs better. And in the long term, a little more work temporarily will make EVERY later situation easier to handle.

Edited April 4, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[secular_mom]

I am pretty sure that giving a day care child apple cider vinegar as a punishment would considered abuse. At least, that's my understanding as a previous military licensed child care provider.

There's no way that a 20 minute time out would fly with the authorities either. I would not think it would be considered appropriate to force a 3 year old day care child to clean baseboards or move rocks either.

 

My advice is to talk to the mom, and let her know just HOW much the child's behavior is impacting everyone else. In the meantime, EVERY single time the child does something to hurt/offend another child/person, then you firmly say, "Spitting/hitting/pinching/biting/wrong behavior is NOT okay" as you guide the child to a time out spot.

 

Is this the first time this child has been in child care?

[Impish]

My first thought was "duct tape", but of course I tend to have a warped and sarcastic mind, and think of things that can never actually be put into practice, regardless of how tempting they may be to think about.

 

Honestly, you need to be at this child's side constantly and consistantly. Discipline has to be swift and consistent. I was a licenced day home provider and time outs a minute per age was the only discipline allowed by the province. I don't know if you're licenced or not, but if you are, best to check into the rules surrounding your paperwork.

 

If the mother isn't seeming to discipline the child for aggression, however, and it seems by your experience at the gymnastics she's not since she did nothing when her child hit another, I would give her notice immediately. I refuse to have a dayhome child that is undisciplined by parents. Nuh uh, no way. Not ever going to happen.

[dtb1999]

I am pretty sure that giving a day care child apple cider vinegar as a punishment would considered abuse.

There's no way that a 20 minute time out would fly with the authorities either. I would not think it would be considered appropriate to force a 3 year old day care child to clean baseboards or move rocks either.

 

 

 

:iagree: And I can honestly say that if I found out that a child care provider did that to one of my children, *regardless* of their behaviour, it would be reported. And I would not be a very happy camper! :glare:

[dtb1999]

First, I would put her on a shorter "leash" so to speak. It is the CAREGIVER's job to make sure, for the safety of the other kids and the learning of the child in question, to make sure the child NEVER manages to make contact for hitting, biting, and pinching. I say this as one that had a biter/headbanger as well as one who has had 15 kids at a time in her charge. I KNOW it's hard but the FASTEST way to extinguish behavior is to not let it happen AT ALL.

 

 

 

 

:iagree: Personally, from the other issues you have posted recently regarding this child, I would give the mom a 2 week notice for her to find other arrangements for the little girl. You can invest alot of time and patience on discipline in your home, yet if there is no discipline or boundaries in the little girls home, it seems that it would be pretty futile.

[SonshineLearner]

:iagree: And I can honestly say that if I found out that a child care provider did that to one of my children, *regardless* of their behaviour, it would be reported. And I would not be a very happy camper! :glare:

 

That's fine. I would talk to the mom first anyway. I'm not saying that I would hide the fact that the inappropriate act needs to stop. I am HUGE on finding the reason that children are doing what they are doing. BUT, after watching children who hit/punched/spit.... I KNOW that sometimes they have good parents, a good daycare provider, lots of love and still just are "hurting others." (these were young children)

 

I would not time out a child for that long in any other circumstance. AND, I have to say that it's what I was told to do.(When I called L&L) I just stopped doing childcare and started just being with my kids.

 

Personally, I would have NO problem with my children doing little mundane things to curb behaviour. I mean, spitting in the sink is "NO fun" and yet it doesn't hurt anything. Working with the parents on some punishment type things might be nicer than making them find new childcare. I suppose even if I think that I am nice, I may just have a mean streak.

 

Carrie

[dtb1999]

Sitting in a chair for 20 min or wiping baseboards with a rag couldn't possibly harm a child. I can't believe people (others in this thread) would really report that as child abuse. If so, I abuse my kids regularly. I know it is different in a child care setting but again, boring does not equal abuse. Saying so is a bit over the top.

 

I would report a daycare provider if they made my child drink apple cider vinegar. I do think that is abusive, and it is most definately not a child care provider's place to impose such a punishment. It is no different than making a child eat soap or hot sauce for bad language, and both of those are abusive.

As for moving rocks and wiping baseboards, I do not think that is abusive, per say, depending on how it is imposed. ( I fail to see how such punishments would even make sense as a consequence for spitting, but I digress) I also do not think those types of discipline methods are appropriate for a child care provider to implement, especially on preschoolers.

[SonshineLearner]

Ok, so, just for fun I'm gonna play here. Years ago, there was a private school, who made the kids take horseradish if they did "naughty" things with their mouth. Parents had to agree, first, and the school notified kids when they were served up horsey sauce. Mom took school to court, judge was an old judge. Said, if it stopped what he saw in school today, good riddance to any disagreeing with it. BTW, school proved that horseradish aids in digestion.

I am someone who doesn't punitively correct for much, but rather talks about what ought to happen. BUT, abusive behaviour makes me think about something that will nip it in the bud. I wouldn't give apple cider vinegar to someone else's child....BUT, I would have the kid do something that would make them...never want to do it again. Since you can't put hot sauce, or anything else bad in their mouth...then having them do a hassle chore is what makes the most sense to me. I mean...in the real world, if you bite someone, you go to more than a class on self control...

Carrie

[phathui5]

One great program is Raising a Thinking Child by Myrna Shure.

 

Ok. I ordered a copy from amazon.

 

First, I would put her on a shorter "leash" so to speak. It is the CAREGIVER's job to make sure, for the safety of the other kids and the learning of the child in question, to make sure the child NEVER manages to make contact for hitting, biting, and pinching. I say this as one that had a biter/headbanger as well as one who has had 15 kids at a time in her charge.

 

 

This is what I did after naptime today. She had to be in the room I was in and I brought books for her when I was in a room where toys weren't allowed.

 

As far as scheduling, we do have a schedule during the week, but are more relaxed on weekends. Her behavior is an issue no matter what day it is, so I don't think the routine is it for her.

 

I KNOW it's hard but the FASTEST way to extinguish behavior is to not let it happen AT ALL.

 

 

That's a nice idea, but it doesn't seem likely that one can keep that many children within reach (the only way to physically stop them) at all times. During free play, if some kids want to play in the playroom and the older ones want to go outside, I let them do that. Since last week, this particular girl has had to stay on whatever floor of the house I'm on, but this coming week I'll be keeping her in whatever room I go to.

 

I'd also offer her the choice of reaching for a cup (or going into the bathroom) for that purpose.

 

My issue isn't inappropriately timed spitting. If she was spitting on the floor, I'd have her wipe it up. This is about spitting at people when angry.

Edited April 5, 2009 by phathui5