switch from MFW to TOG?

[~blessedmom~]

I've searched the forums and found some info, but at this point I am totally overwhelmed!:confused: I am currently using MFW CTG, but I've been frustrated lately. It seems we haven't done much history in the last few weeks (not scheduled), and the history we do seems to go right in one ear and out the other. I don't know if it's because I read it to them and they are just tuning me out....I try to ask questions to see if they're retaining it but usually just get bare minimum answers. Same with notebook pages and reading "assignments."

 

Looking at TOG, it seems like it would give them more accountability and scheduling practice, guided reading with comprehension activities, better writing skills.....

 

I don't know! I am totally confused right now after spending a good bit of the day looking over the TOG website. It looks great but very expensive.

 

Anyone able to throw me a life-preserver?:confused:

[Melissa in CA]

 

Looking at TOG, it seems like it would give them more accountability and scheduling practice, guided reading with comprehension activities, better writing skills.....

 

These are some of the very reasons I decided to give TOG a try. I like that my son has to do most of his history independently, and if he doesn't do it...he cannot answer his questions or discuss with me...so he definitely does it. ;)

 

I am personally very happy with TOG, but I know from reading these boards that it is not for everyone. I highly suggest you do your homework. What I did was I downloaded and printed out the three week sample. I ordered through interlibrary loan all the books for those three weeks that I could get. I then prepared three weeks of school, and used it. I didn't actually have my son do any of the work, just did it myself to get a feel for it. He got to look through the books though and said it "looked good.". So after that, I purchased Y1 and began preparing over the summer for this year. It's been a great year. No complaints from him at all.

[Donna A.]

I've searched the forums and found some info, but at this point I am totally overwhelmed!:confused: I am currently using MFW CTG, but I've been frustrated lately. It seems we haven't done much history in the last few weeks (not scheduled), and the history we do seems to go right in one ear and out the other. I don't know if it's because I read it to them and they are just tuning me out....I try to ask questions to see if they're retaining it but usually just get bare minimum answers. Same with notebook pages and reading "assignments."

 

Looking at TOG, it seems like it would give them more accountability and scheduling practice, guided reading with comprehension activities, better writing skills.....

 

 

A few questions, because I'm not clear from your post what's going on during your schooltime....

 

What ages are the children?

 

Why is it that you think the children need more scheduling practice? Practice for what? Everything in MFW scheduled for you.... :confused1:

 

NO history scheduled at ALL for several weeks? Have you called the MFW office and talked to them about this? Or posted on the MFW forums? (I haven't used CTG, so I'm clueless about that one, but I have a hard time believing there's NO history scheduled at all for WEEKS. :001_huh: )

 

If the children are tuning you out and seem disinterested while using MFW, what makes you think switching curriculum will make it better? Not trying to sound snarky... but that and the scheduling comment has me really curious about how things are going discipline-wise. Only because I know how it works here sometimes.... :rolleyes:

 

Do you have a regular routine? Are YOU bored and disinterested, and maybe this is being reflected in your presentation? Are you using the Book Basket? Do you not require narrations? Have you read through the teacher notes at the beginning of the TM for instruction Book Basket and all the other things?

 

"Accountability" and "scheduling practice" seem like things you should be requiring of either yourself or the children.... not the curriculum.

 

"Guided reading with comprehension activities" is part of the teacher notes, notebooking, art and music, narrations, scheduled read-alouds, Book Basket, etc. "Better writing skills" come through copywork and dictation initially, and then later, with writing instruction.

 

What are you using for language arts?

[Donna A.]

One more thought. You said:

 

I've searched the forums and found some info, but at this point I am totally overwhelmed!

Maybe that's part of the problem? Are you spending too much time researching and not enough time talking to the folks who wrote the curriculum to figure out how best to present the material? Or whatever it is that's actually frustrating you?

 

Again, I just know what happens here when I go searching for life preservers in all the wrong places.... ;) Your post just sounds so vague....

[cbollin]

I

Anyone able to throw me a life-preserver?:confused:

 

 

Agreeing with the same points of confusion that Donna has.

*How old are your children?

*Which weeks in CTG are you in? (curious on the history issue. If I know the week, I can see what you're talking about.)

*Call the MFW office and make sure you aren't missing something in the Teaching Tips and see if they have any ideas. I do that from time to time when something seems suddenly not working in MFW. I've used their programs for 6 years and there are times that I'm forgetting stuff. I've found their office to be really sweet and helpful.

 

*how's the narration going each day? Some kids do better if you have the book in front of them while you are reading to them.

 

*we had to summarize Children's Homer, so that was a hard point in CTG for us. But we got through it.

 

 

*Is it just spring fever on everyone's part and you just need a spring break week with Park Days, nature walks, digging in the garden? Taking a break for doing an Easter unit study.

 

*Did you have as much fun making the tabernacle as we did?

Here's a link to some pics we did

http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4761&p=47453p47453

 

 

-crystal

[~blessedmom~]

My post probably sounded vague because I was tired and frustrated and gasping for a resolution.......

 

To answer a couple of your questions:

 

-My children are 3rd and 7th grade.

 

- Maybe "scheduling practice" isn't so much what I'm concerned about, but rather an accountability built in for them so they can be more invested in the school day. Right now, I pull things together and read to them. If they had to share in the maintenance of our days maybe they would be more invested, therefore take more pride in their work.

 

-The no history thing: My son even said to me while studying Egypt, "It's like we're the Israelites wandering around the desert for years!" , referring to the fact that we felt "stuck" in that time period but not getting any new info. A few weeks ago we had a Psalm study for our week in history--wonderful, but it was more literature/ Bible than history.

 

-I am currently using all the MFW recommendations for LA. (although we switched for a while from Writing Strands because it didn't seem to work for my oldest last year, but we are back to it now)

 

-As for the rest of your comments.....that's what I'm working on and trying to hammer out. I'm just having a hard time trying to connect everything in the context of MFW. I've been trying to have good discussions about their reading and our history, but I have no "launching off" point with MFW. It seems with TOG there is built in accountability for the students and information for the teacher.

 

I'm just trying to do what's best for my children and to give them the best education I can at home. I'm not trying to fulfill some desire of mine to keep searching for curriculum.....because that's not it. I want to find something that is comprehensive, biblical, gives them good study skills, challenges them to do their best and I want to then stick with it for the long haul.

 

I don't want to curriculum-hop.....but if I'm looking for things to supplement ( reading comp/ better writing, discussions, etc...) why not find a curriculum that offers everything?

 

Still frustrated and overwhelmed after a night of prayer.....:confused:

[~blessedmom~]

*we had to summarize Children's Homer, so that was a hard point in CTG for us. But we got through it.

 

 

*Is it just spring fever on everyone's part and you just need a spring break week with Park Days, nature walks, digging in the garden? Taking a break for doing an Easter unit study.

 

 

 

-crystal

 

 

We must have been posting at the same time!:001_smile:

 

They love Children's Homer. They always ask me to read more. I always make sure they understand some of the "funny wording," but they really like it.

 

I would LOVE to take a back-to-nature week!! .....alas, we've already taken our mid-winter break for my son's birthday last month. I have to admit, though, a breather would be wonderful, but I doubt hubby would go for it because then it would push us past the public schools ending date. I personally could care less about that, but he uses it as a "measuring stick" I guess.

 

 

Thank you for your interest and help with my dilemma....it means a great deal that you would take the time to help me!!:grouphug:

[cbollin]

My post probably sounded vague because I was tired and frustrated and gasping for a resolution.......

 

no big deal. we all have times where what we type is tired. ((hugs))

 

 

To answer a couple of your questions:

 

-My children are 3rd and 7th grade.

 

- Maybe "scheduling practice" isn't so much what I'm concerned about, but rather an accountability built in for them so they can be more invested in the school day. Right now, I pull things together and read to them. If they had to share in the maintenance of our days maybe they would be more invested, therefore take more pride in their work.

 

With MFW we are allowed to copy the grid for personal use for helping students to share in the maintenance of their days. So, I do that with my 7th grader who is in ECC with jr. high stuff.

 

You will want to have your 7th grader also doa few oral reports or written. Use the suggestions at the beginning of the Streams of Civ. chapters for some research. Put on the calendar "oral report due at supper on such and such date". MFW's approach in jr. high is to help transition them to more independent learning. So reports and research on a topic is the way they suggest. I know the intro section of CTG manual doesn't set it up as a rigid schedule in order to allow flexibility within the family. But older kids should be doing some library research on one of those chapter topics in Streams.

 

Also, a lot of their day in terms of "maintenance of their day" (I like that phrase, I'm going to use it), will also come in working on the language arts (applications of Grammar, and Progeny Press and whatever you do for writing.) and also using the student schedule lesson plans for SAxon and Apologia.

 

But, I ended up copying one blank grid and put it in a sheet protector to help my 7th grader see what she needed to do. We do all group teaching first (Bible, history) and then I work with 4th grader while 7th grader either does her work or gets moody. (what? she's 13)

 

In CTG, you can copy the grid for your own use, so maybe your 7th grader would like that? My daughter enjoys having her grid in a sheet protector and checking off with dry erase when she's done.

 

 

 

-The no history thing: My son even said to me while studying Egypt, "It's like we're the Israelites wandering around the desert for years!" , referring to the fact that we felt "stuck" in that time period but not getting any new info. A few weeks ago we had a Psalm study for our week in history--wonderful, but it was more literature/ Bible than history.

 

Jumping up and down and happy dancing with YOU! He really understands it now! That's a life lesson and spiritual lesson that wasn't planned in any curriculum and your son GOT IT! :party:

 

wow! Who needs extra discussion questions when he really is understanding and connecting to OT like that. Who else is wiping tears of joy after reading that? Perfect for this age.

 

anyway, the Psalm study weeks, make sure you're connecting those specific Psalms to the Bible history that you are reading those weeks (23, 24, right?) It's trying to put it in context of the history that happened and why those were written. That is history.

 

You're basically in those weeks doing a mini unit study on the life of David. It is very integrated approach for that unit between Bible/history/special lit study. So, I think it is intentional that it shouldn't feel like "we did Bible. We did history. We did a poem." It should feel like "we did all of it together. It's a pie that has been baked. Where's the sugar, where's the flour? It's there."

It's about tangibly understanding the anguish that David had when composing those Psalms and really understanding it.

 

I'll throw you life line here: you're doing great. Your kids are seeing it and getting it. Stay with MFW. It's working. I'm really thinking you are needing to just go with it and keep asking for the life lines because it is working and I just think you're not realizing it. (((hugs)))

 

It doesn't always have to be more questions. Sometimes when God is speaking to our hearts and minds together we learn just as well.

 

And then in high school years, MFW will have all that your children will need to have the really deeper questions and answers and all of it. And you will have time to work with your kids and guide their discussions while they are writing and learning and getting it all. He's going to get all of that "deeper" stuff in just 2 years. It's ok for now.

 

praying for you to enjoy the end of the year. ((hugs))

-crystal

Edited March 17, 2009 by cbollin

[Melissa in CA]

A few questions, because I'm not clear from your post what's going on during your schooltime....

 

What ages are the children?

 

Why is it that you think the children need more scheduling practice? Practice for what? Everything in MFW scheduled for you.... :confused1:

 

NO history scheduled at ALL for several weeks? Have you called the MFW office and talked to them about this? Or posted on the MFW forums? (I haven't used CTG, so I'm clueless about that one, but I have a hard time believing there's NO history scheduled at all for WEEKS. :001_huh: )

 

If the children are tuning you out and seem disinterested while using MFW, what makes you think switching curriculum will make it better? Not trying to sound snarky... but that and the scheduling comment has me really curious about how things are going discipline-wise. Only because I know how it works here sometimes.... :rolleyes:

 

Do you have a regular routine? Are YOU bored and disinterested, and maybe this is being reflected in your presentation? Are you using the Book Basket? Do you not require narrations? Have you read through the teacher notes at the beginning of the TM for instruction Book Basket and all the other things?

 

"Accountability" and "scheduling practice" seem like things you should be requiring of either yourself or the children.... not the curriculum.

 

"Guided reading with comprehension activities" is part of the teacher notes, notebooking, art and music, narrations, scheduled read-alouds, Book Basket, etc. "Better writing skills" come through copywork and dictation initially, and then later, with writing instruction.

 

What are you using for language arts?

 

No offense intended Donna, but your whole post sounded a bit snarky to me. :confused: If I were the OP, I would either never want to ask another question on here again, or be a bit offended and on the defensive. You came across as basically jumping down her throat with all your questions. I am sure that was not what you intended, but that's how I read it. Hopefully she did not. ;)

 

As for scheduling practice & accountability work. At some point our children need to 'own' their own education. TOG has helped my son tremendously in regards to this. I give him what needs to be done by weeks end, he then schedules it out and "owns" it. He knows that I am NOT going to hold his hand and walk him through his work and that if he is not prepared for our discussion on Friday there will be consequences. I personally feel that Jr High is a good age to begin this type of school. Perhaps you can do all these things with MFW, but with TOG it is an integral part of the program and MADE to be done this way.

 

Also, please take into account that not all children learn best by being read to. I am one of them. If someone were reading my history books to me I would tune them out because I would not be able to follow it in my head. It would get all jumbled up and I would get confused, frustrated and finally just tune it out.

 

We are all different. Have different likes, dislikes and learn in different ways. I have never personally used MFW, but just like TOG, SL or any other curriculum, it is not always perfect for every situation. ;)

[cbollin]

I personally feel that Jr High is a good age to begin this type of school. Perhaps you can do all these things with MFW, but with TOG it is an integral part of the program and MADE to be done this way.

 

Sounds to me that MFW and TOG think a lot alike on this issue. It is also an important part of the MFW program at jr. high level too and is also designed that way. I'm glad they aren't the only ones who think that.

 

MFW really begins all of that at 7th grade with all subjects except Bible/ and history interpretation, although if a family wants to let their 7th grade does those on his/her own that's always an option. Or a child isn't ready for fuller independence, you can help them for a few years.

 

Then in 9th grade, all of it is independent work load, with parents as the guide. So yes, MFW really designs the jr. high years as a transition time to that independence.

 

So, in MFW program, a 7th grader does their language arts, math, science, art history, music, any of the "built in unit study language arts" (vocab, copywork, memory practice), reading etc on their own.

 

But then we can still have them in family time for some history reading and family style Bible reading. now in my house, it helps if we let our 7th grader read ahead on some things (even if I read to the 4th grader) and just have discussion time together with everyone.

 

-crystal

[Donna A.]

No offense intended Donna, but your whole post sounded a bit snarky to me. :confused: If I were the OP, I would either never want to ask another question on here again, or be a bit offended and on the defensive. You came across as basically jumping down her throat with all your questions. I am sure that was not what you intended, but that's how I read it. Hopefully she did not. ;)

 

We are all different. Have different likes, dislikes and learn in different ways. I have never personally used MFW, but just like TOG, SL or any other curriculum, it is not always perfect for every situation. ;)

 

Crystal got it. And since the op's post was vague, that's exacty what I was getting at. Once the op answered a few of those question, Crystal was able to throw that lifeline that the op was seeking. :)

 

Yes, we do have different likes and dislikes, but having struggles with questions along the way myself, I know that sometimes those questions can't be answered without more information into the *why* I was feeling so frustrated and overwhelmed. If the op expresses to me that she was offended by post, I will gladly apologize. :D I was not "jumping down her throat"; I was seeking more information into why she was feeling frustrated, and whether she'd sought help from seasoned MFW users before thinking about dumping the curriculum. If you were struggling with TOG, wouldn't you be better off seeking the answers to your struggles from seasoned TOG users (or perhaps the author herself) instead of just questioning whether to jump ship without first working through the issues?

 

((HUGS)) to Blessedmom. Crystal gave an awesome response! Especially the part about the Israelites wandering.... That's some awesome insight your son had! I don't know how many times dh and I have made that exact same comment between ourselves as we journey through this life as believers living in a fallen world. It's hard, and we ARE on an Exodus out of the slavery of sin to a life of righteousness with Christ. That's what it's all about. ;)

 

Agreeing with Crystal and Cadam on the independent student work. One thing I will do with my 7th grader is to occasionally have her read an extra biography or something from the Book Basket, perhaps even a historical fiction chapter book, and do a report on it.

 

I also sometimes do something different with Book Basket, especially if there haven't been any notebooking projects for several days. I'll pick a topic related to our studies, get a pile of books of different types (biography or autobiography, picture book, atlas, Usborne book, whatever) and put them in a pile on the DR table. Then I'll tell my older girls to browse through those books and find something that they didn't know before. Then they have to do a notebook page for it. That notebook page can be an illustration, tracing a picture out of a book, a written summary.... their choice. I just want them to find and learn some new information on their own, and then *do* something with that information.

 

Also, I'm wondering if maybe it just *feels* too easy, and that's why you think you might be missing something? MFW uses a lot of Charlotte Mason techniques, and it CAN feel like you're not doing enough. However, I'm convinced that CM techniques (in general) and MFW (in particular) take time to really show *fruit*. It takes the doing and immersing and time to allow the information simmer before we even realize that learning HAS happened. I've been in that spot... thinking they weren't really learning anything. Then what happens is that it comes out later, when you least expect it. It's been in there... building and digesting.... but the fruit becomes evident after all that nurturing has taken place. Think of a garden and how it flourishes after a season of planting, watering, weeding, and tending. :001_smile:

 

Hang in there. It sounds like you're doing great! :thumbup:

[~blessedmom~]

Cadam, I think you're right...if I could get my hands on TOG I think I would have a better feel for it and if it would be a good fit for us or if "tweaking" MFW would suit us best. I think I am definitely going to print off their sample and gather up the books to investigate....

 

Crystal, you really seemed to shine a light onto my situation, and I am taking your advice and putting it into action. I am going back over my TM, and I am going to put my oldest into action...or should I say pro-action...:001_smile: with his own chart and some research project ideas.

 

Melissa, your grace has been a blessing to me in the midst of my "dilemma." I really do want my children to "own" their education, too, and they want a little more history "meat." And I think I am like you...I need to see it as well as hear it in order to learn it. I think I am partly struggling because I am drawn to CM methods, but I was taught in a more classical fashion. I did Shakespeare in 7th and 8th grade (If I were to have my son do that he would huff and puff :lol:!) But at the same time, sometimes my oldest tells me, "I wish I knew the things you know." So....still confused as what to do....:001_huh:

 

Also, I'm wondering if maybe it just *feels* too easy, and that's why you think you might be missing something? MFW uses a lot of Charlotte Mason techniques, and it CAN feel like you're not doing enough. However, I'm convinced that CM techniques (in general) and MFW (in particular) take time to really show *fruit*. It takes the doing and immersing and time to allow the information simmer before we even realize that learning HAS happened. I've been in that spot... thinking they weren't really learning anything. Then what happens is that it comes out later, when you least expect it. It's been in there... building and digesting.... but the fruit becomes evident after all that nurturing has taken place. Think of a garden and how it flourishes after a season of planting, watering, weeding, and tending.

 

This is something that is a very distinct possibility! :iagree:

And, Donna, your questions about curriculum and our use of it did not offend me at all.....However, I felt like you questioned my discipline of my children, and that stung a little because I was just looking for curriculum advice. But I decided to take it this way--that you were offering the "truth in love" as you saw it. Sometimes you do need to say things to a sister in Christ that would not be easy or popular to say.;)

 

Thank you all so much for your insight and advice...I am trying to improve where I can, but I still don't know if I want to "tweak" MFW or to venture into TOG for more "meat.":confused::001_smile:

[M&M]

My post probably sounded vague because I was tired and frustrated and gasping for a resolution.......

 

To answer a couple of your questions:

 

-My children are 3rd and 7th grade.

 

- Maybe "scheduling practice" isn't so much what I'm concerned about, but rather an accountability built in for them so they can be more invested in the school day. Right now, I pull things together and read to them. If they had to share in the maintenance of our days maybe they would be more invested, therefore take more pride in their work.

 

-The no history thing: My son even said to me while studying Egypt, "It's like we're the Israelites wandering around the desert for years!" , referring to the fact that we felt "stuck" in that time period but not getting any new info. A few weeks ago we had a Psalm study for our week in history--wonderful, but it was more literature/ Bible than history.

 

-I am currently using all the MFW recommendations for LA. (although we switched for a while from Writing Strands because it didn't seem to work for my oldest last year, but we are back to it now)

 

-As for the rest of your comments.....that's what I'm working on and trying to hammer out. I'm just having a hard time trying to connect everything in the context of MFW. I've been trying to have good discussions about their reading and our history, but I have no "launching off" point with MFW. It seems with TOG there is built in accountability for the students and information for the teacher.

 

I'm just trying to do what's best for my children and to give them the best education I can at home. I'm not trying to fulfill some desire of mine to keep searching for curriculum.....because that's not it. I want to find something that is comprehensive, biblical, gives them good study skills, challenges them to do their best and I want to then stick with it for the long haul.

 

I don't want to curriculum-hop.....but if I'm looking for things to supplement ( reading comp/ better writing, discussions, etc...) why not find a curriculum that offers everything?

 

Still frustrated and overwhelmed after a night of prayer.....:confused:

 

Let me say that MFW is a very good curriculum, and many people love it. It just was not a good fit for our family. It did teach me a lot about our schedule, how we learn, and we learned to be challenged in our bible memorization.

 

But, my oldest began to dread history something that she had loved. We have a big family, being on a schedule didn't work for us.

 

TOG has worked well for us because it is flexible yet still has the stucture we need. My oldest two have learned to plan out their own work and to work their plan. It took my ds (4th grader) all year to get this concept down, but now he is learning not only to make a plan but how to get that work done on time...this is a work in progress ;).

 

The discussion notes are really what shines for me the most. I am able to help lead discussions in history and lit without having to read everything.

My children are learning to look deeper, to be responsible for their work, and not to look to me to spoon feed everything to them.

 

 

It really depends on how you want to approach your teaching. TOG works better for me because I love having choices, I love being able to choose lots of living books when they are available to me, and other weeks just using a spine. I love just skipping something because our week is crazy or we had a death or birth or sickness in the family. I love that I can sit down and give my dc their books and let them figure out how they want to approach their week, that if they really find something interesting they can dig deeper and bring more to the table during our discussion. I love how TOG teaches me and therefore I am better able to teach my children.

 

TOG allows me to be eclectic in my choices and still keeps me on track with our learning. I feel more able to let God lead me in our teaching direction instead of following someone else's plan or schedule.

 

I would look at what works for you and what doesn't work with MFW and see if it is something you can adjust or if you need to look elsewhere.

 

 

No curriculum is perfect, there is no one size fits all in homeschooling. I have discovered that if I find what helps me teach my children best then I can better help them to learn.

[~blessedmom~]

The discussion notes are really what shines for me the most. I am able to help lead discussions in history and lit without having to read everything.

My children are learning to look deeper, to be responsible for their work, and not to look to me to spoon feed everything to them.

 

 

 

 

This is exactly what is drawing me to TOG.

 

I'm still trying to figure out if it will be the best for my kiddos and me as a teacher. Is TOG really as "teacher intensive" as I read that it is? I don't mind the actually teaching time being hands on, but is the planning and preparing intense enough to scare me off? I do have a 5 month old as well as the 3rd and 7th graders.

 

Cadam, I know what you mean by "spring fever"....I am going to put my best foot forward with MFW this year--only 2 months to go--and then try to buckle down and see if we need to make a change or stay the course.

 

Thanks again!!:001_smile:

[Julie in MN]

I don't know what you'll decide for next year, but to help you finish this year, I had a couple of random thoughts about my perspective after using MFW for 5 years -- things that didn't seem to be mentioned already in the conversation...

 

Right now, I pull things together and read to them. If they had to share in the maintenance of our days maybe they would be more invested, therefore take more pride in their work.

 

I like reading with my kids, so I don't create independence in that way. But this style of learning creates *more* ownership of the material, from my point of view. Ds is expected to narrate and then produce a notebook page, and he is not fed the points that he is expected to learn. My 7th grader sometimes needs to take notes now, because I expect him to produce more. I also like that it's my own beliefs that dictate what I want him to get out of the lesson, especially when we're talking Bible history.

 

-The no history thing: My son even said to me while studying Egypt, "It's like we're the Israelites wandering around the desert for years!" , referring to the fact that we felt "stuck" in that time period but not getting any new info. A few weeks ago we had a Psalm study for our week in history--wonderful, but it was more literature/ Bible than history.

 

I think you are not excited about the Bible as history. We are fascinated by the amount of ancient history in the Bible -- not just about the Israelites but the Egyptians and many middle-eastern communities. We like finding connections in our reading. And I like that it's an "original source" and not someone else's overview or directed points.

 

I've been trying to have good discussions about their reading and our history, but I have no "launching off" point with MFW. It seems with TOG there is built in accountability for the students and information for the teacher.

 

I have never used TOG, but haven't I heard that the teacher summaries are straight from the Encyclopedia? Could you just have the encyclopedia alongside, in order to know what points you'd like the kids to focus on? Or Victor Journey -- could you use that for launching a discussion? For me, the notebook pages themselves often reveal what my son has gotten or missed or completely mis-interpreted. I really like that he's forced to produce his own overview, rather than focusing on details & forgetting them.

[dhudson]

I think that much of this discussion is more about what you prefer. I think TOG is a great curriculum and some of my bf's use it and love it. One of the reason's I don't use it is that I like the freedom to make questions and discussions flow as I feel like it needs to go. Admittedly, I don't do well with being told what to say ;).

 

I also like having all the basics in a schedule and then being able to add in as I need or feel is necessary. TOG has too many choices and takes too much time to plan for me. I like to plan extra's not the basics.

 

Again, I think this might a discussion of preference. I think you might want to sit down with a TM of TOG's (maybe someone you know uses it?) and evaluate it further. Then you can answer whether TOG or MFW fits the needs and goals of your family better.

[bethben]

I can't really speak to your issue, but maybe hearing why I am switching may help? Mostly, I just feel like we need to make our school more "rigorous" - I'm not sure why at this point, but it's something God has been speaking to my heart.

 

Other reasons include:

 

• I felt like TOG was easier to incorporate a variety of ages. I have children 4 years apart and I needed a little more hand holding in that area than just a great book basket list. I also like that literature is scheduled out for each level.
  
• I wanted my husband to be able to engage the kids more when they got older. Just having a series of questions to go over with them each week about what they were "supposed" to learn would help us acheive that aspect. MFW while being good - doesn't give those questions. He doesn't have time to read the books. I'm starting in 3rd grade so that I can understand TOG so that when my kids are older, I'll have a good grasp on it.
  
• I did like the literature worksheets.
  
• I liked having options. With MFW, if we didn't like the suggested activity, there wasn't anything else to chose from. TOG has a variety of activities and I get to pick what fits our family. Also, if I have a kid who just wants the textbook version of history, I can chose that path. It's all about options and choosing - yes-I fit the stereotypical homeschooler...
  

There is no perfect curriculum. You may find yourself changing and still have the same issues. I guess it boils down to what you as a teacher feel like you can do and what you like. Then, just be a salesman and sell it to the kids. They can catch your enthusiasm about what you love.

 

Beth

[M&M]

This is exactly what is drawing me to TOG.

 

I'm still trying to figure out if it will be the best for my kiddos and me as a teacher. Is TOG really as "teacher intensive" as I read that it is? I don't mind the actually teaching time being hands on, but is the planning and preparing intense enough to scare me off? I do have a 5 month old as well as the 3rd and 7th graders.

 

 

I'm still trying to figure out if it will be the best for my kiddos and me as a teacher. Is TOG really as "teacher intensive" as I read that it is? I don't mind the actually teaching time being hands on, but is the planning and preparing intense enough to scare me off? I do have a 5 month old as well as the 3rd and 7th graders.

 

 

I think what takes time in TOG is learning how to make it work for you. That takes time and patience, we took a lot of time last year to learn how to do TOG on our home. We also started with classic (much more work) and had a lot of roadblocks (chicken pox, the death of a close family member, mil getting cancer). Still, somehow we had a decent year we learned how to plan out work, that our plan had to be implemented, and that we had to think about the big picture how all these threads made up the "tapestry" of history.

 

We started out slowly this year, it took forever to get through Unit 1, but we have hit our stride and are really flying now!

 

I plan one unit at a time, I print out all of the maps, charts, worksheets that we will use. I look through the booklist and decide what I will order. I usually choose to purchase books used in multi-year, multi unit and literature for my dialetic student. I use SOTW for my Upper Grammar along with books we own or get from the library (if we go). For weeks that we don't have the individual history books, we use a spine book (much like WTM) I have the Kingfisher, Streams of Civ, and both of SWB's history books (SOTW and HOW).

 

Each week I take time to read through the teacher's notes and decide what we will cover, what questions we will discuss and what books we will use. If there is some background information that I need to give my dc, I will take notes to teach from (this is for our discussion time). Honestly, if I don't get the time to do this, we can still continue on, I am not as well prepared, but the disucssion notes help keep me on track.

 

This allows me to learn ahead of my children instead of alongside of them. As my children get older I see the value in my having time to think through what we are learning and where God is leading us. It takes less time for me to read the notes than for me to be reading two literature books, history, and Bible.

 

I have always been a- pick it up and read the next thing do the next lesson- type of homeschooler yet TOG is working great for us.

 

TOG is like a buffet, pick what you want -make it work for you. The beauty is that your "plate" will not look like anyone else's.

 

Blessings to you.

[cbollin]

Someone in here it was mentioned about less activities in MFW. Well, that's when I look at the MFW message board in the Ideas Forum for whichever program I'm in. Someone has usually posted something, or will if you ask.

 

I know in 1850MOD there were plenty of activities in SOTW activity guide. Didn't like all of them. Liked others.

 

worth a tiny mention about that section of their board.

 

-crystal

[~blessedmom~]

All of your comments about TOG really seem to be what I am looking for! OH, I would love to get my hands on an actual TM!!:tongue_smilie: I think having all the info in one place instead of having to search it out from different places would actually save time in planning.

 

With TOG how much time during the week do you actually spend "teaching" your children compared to the time it takes to plan it all out? Do the book purchases really break the bank?

 

I like the fact that MFW really is that "CM cake" with all the ingredients baked right in, but is it missing the icing? I don't want to go the overkill route, but I don't want to deny my children the best education I can give them at home.

 

????:001_huh::001_smile::bigear:

[cbollin]

I like the fact that MFW really is that "CM cake" with all the ingredients baked right in, but is it missing the icing?

 

I don't think it is missing. I think the icing is the pick up and go aspect, the library lists, the ability to be done in *my* real world and still let them do other stuff (dance, crafts, play, help on service projects). I find it "sweet" when my kids are reading ahead for fun, and then finding out new information on their own. I find it sweet when it is mostly open and go. And when I look back at how my family has grown for the better using MFW even during the rough times, yeah.... it has the icing too. I'm sure that's not clear. Here's an entry I wrote last summer on my blog if you want to read it or others MFW stuff to see the icing in our homeschooling using MFW.

click here

 

It doesn't have to be decided today. You're choosing and looking at 2 really good programs. Who knows, you might get to see MFW at a convention and see the high school program too and it might work or not.

 

by the way, I've been thinking something with this. If you didn't switch, which MFW program would you use next year? Each year has had its own sweet flavors in my house. just wondering and curious

 

-crystal

[~blessedmom~]

My current MFW plan is to do RTR next year. When my oldest is in HS he can start with year one Ancients, etc.... while I would continue the history cycle with my younger doing Ex to 1850, then 1850 to Mod, then ECC again.

 

I would like the idea of them studying the same history period, though, but I do realize that the HS level will be independent work so I won't be "teaching" 2 levels.

 

I am off to look at your blog right now!;)

 

 

 

Edit:

If I stay in Jesus I will have much fruit.

Wow! God has truly blessed you with your lovely daughter and with your peace of mind with your curriculum choice. I am praying for that as well!! Edited March 17, 2009 by ~blessedmom~
more info

[profmom]

We switched from MFW to TOG and really like it! Here are the things that contributed to my decision:

 

 

~ We didn't like the bookbasket, which surprised me! It didn't go over well, and the kids preferred having assigned reading. With TOG, assigned reading is scheduled by age ranges AND in reasonable weekly chunks. This really has worked well for us.

 

~ My kids enjoyed lying on the couch while I read all their history to them, but they retain much more by reading it themselves.

 

~ I wanted TOG's discussion notes for dialectic and rhetoric (for later). This is a big deal to me because, with the deficiencies in my own history education, *I* need help making the logic/dialectic stage connections before I can help my students make them. I have loved the discussions that TOG has helped me to have with my dialectic student.

 

~ We like the weekly schedule vs. daily! It's been good for my dc to plan out their daily schedules from the weekly list. I think it's good responsibility training.

 

~ The MFW books felt more text-booky to us vs. more of a "living" feeling with TOG.

 

 

Those are some of the top reasons we like TOG better. After reading about the possibililty of "TOG fog," I spent extra time in the summer becoming aquainted with TOG, printing literature worksheets, etc., which has paid off.

[Melissa in CA]

 

Melissa, your grace has been a blessing to me in the midst of my "dilemma." I really do want my children to "own" their education, too, and they want a little more history "meat." And I think I am like you...I need to see it as well as hear it in order to learn it. I think I am partly struggling because I am drawn to CM methods, but I was taught in a more classical fashion. I did Shakespeare in 7th and 8th grade (If I were to have my son do that he would huff and puff :lol:!) But at the same time, sometimes my oldest tells me, "I wish I knew the things you know." So....still confused as what to do....

 

What seems amazing to me about TOG is that it DOES seem to have a CM flair to it. Lots and lots of visual living type books are incorporated. And as for the Shakespeare....yep, my son gets to read Shakespeare next year, but they assigned it from a graphic novel! My son cannot wait to read that one...I actually had to put it high up on the shelf. ;) They introduce these authors simply and then add on the harder original works later. I see TOG as being classical in scope and sequence, but not being over-the-top classical in the sense that your children are being asked to read things they are not yet ready for. I am thinking of Veritas Press...their books choices for ages recommended blow my mind sometimes. :001_huh::D

I also think TOG is very CM friendly in their book choices, much more so than say, Sonlight. It's almost like a Classical/CM type curriculum. I don't know, I just know it works for me and mine. ;)

[momof165]

We have used MFW for 3 years now. 1st Grade, 2nd Grade (Adventures) and 3rd Grade (Exploring Countries and Cultures). However, I don't think I'll continue with MFW. Somehow, this year I was tweaking the TM soooo much, I could have written it myself. I want some deeper, thought provoking questions, some more discussions, etc. I don't know what I'll be using for 4th Grade - but I (like the OP) feel very drawn toward TOG.

 

I know, this post propably want help A LOT, just wanted to let you know that you are not alone.

 

Sonja

[Cornerstone Classical]

 

 

 

I think you are not excited about the Bible as history. We are fascinated by the amount of ancient history in the Bible -- not just about the Israelites but the Egyptians and many middle-eastern communities. We like finding connections in our reading.

And I like that it's an "original source" and not someone else's overview or directed points.[/quote]

 

I LOVE this aspect of it too!!

[Donna A.]

I did Shakespeare in 7th and 8th grade (If I were to have my son do that he would huff and puff :lol:!) But at the same time, sometimes my oldest tells me, "I wish I knew the things you know."

 

LOL, at your son, my oldest has done that to me, too! She's always anxious to "study the next thing". She's like a sponge! But you can assure him that if you stay with MFW, you'll study Shakespeare next year in RTR, where it falls chronologically. :D

 

And, Donna, your questions about curriculum and our use of it did not offend me at all.....However, I felt like you questioned my discipline of my children, and that stung a little because I was just looking for curriculum advice. But I decided to take it this way--that you were offering the "truth in love" as you saw it. Sometimes you do need to say things to a sister in Christ that would not be easy or popular to say.;)

I apologize for the sting. ((HUGS)) Honestly, I was just naming off things that I know *I* have struggled with. And yes, sometimes that's a discipline issue. :blush: Especially if I've not been getting enough sleep... I tend to over-analyze EVERYTHING when I'm really tired.... which is why I probably shouldn't be on here late at night.... :glare:

[HappyCrazyMama]

Sorry about the multi-quotes. I just wanted to make a couple of points myself. I am responding to some other points made, not the posters.;) (I couldn't keep track)

 

Who needs extra discussion questions when he really is understanding and connecting to OT like that.

Perhaps they are not always needed but why not have the option? Every week.:)

 

So, in MFW program, a 7th grader does their language arts, math, science, art history, music, any of the "built in unit study language arts" (vocab, copywork, memory practice), reading etc on their own.

I am not familiar with MFW but I just wanted to clarify for understanding, the students with TOG don't just do the work on their own they make their own schedule. Perhaps that is what was meant with the above quote as well but I was not sure.:)

 

I have never used TOG, but haven't I heard that the teacher summaries are straight from the Encyclopedia? Could you just have the encyclopedia alongside...

The teacher's overview does come from the World Book Encyclopedia with some of Marcia's comments sprinkled in. You could use an encyclopedia or you could have it all handy in your TM.:D With student assignment pages and discussion questions as well, at all levels to boot.

 

Someone in here it was mentioned about less activities in MFW. Well, that's when I look at the MFW message board in the Ideas Forum for whichever program I'm in. Someone has usually posted something, or will if you ask.

 

Or you could revert to my above point about the convenience of having them all in your TM, at all levels to boot.:D

I don't think it is missing. I think the icing is the pick up and go aspect, the library lists, the ability to be done in *my* real world and still let them do other stuff

 

Might just depend on your favorite flavor of icing.:lol:

 

And didn't someone say something about read-alouds? TOG does have scheduled RAs too.

 

I am obviously biased but wanted to add my .02. I hope you are able to make a decision you can be at peace with.

[cbollin]

I actually find enough activities in MFW. The idea to check the forums for extra was just a suggestion of a quick way to do more who prefer more academics instead of more service and Productive Afternoons. I've never felt that my kids lacked anything in MFW.

 

However, if the MFW manual contained everything possible thing to do, the way you have described TOG, the MFW would never work for me. It is too much to select from. That's one reason I like MFW so much. I'm the type who get easily get overwhelmed and bogged down in selecting stuff. MFW does it. yeah!

 

anyway, for those on the thread who have done ECC in 3rd grade, you've been able to provide something that TOG would not have provided in any level, right? So, what a great time to switch, eh? You've given them the heart of seeing the world instead of digging about history.

 

and yes, MFW also has scheduled read alouds.

 

 

-crystal

[M&M]

All of your comments about TOG really seem to be what I am looking for! OH, I would love to get my hands on an actual TM!!:tongue_smilie: I think having all the info in one place instead of having to search it out from different places would actually save time in planning.

You can print out a three week trial of some of the year plans, to see how it works.

http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/explore/

 

 

With TOG how much time during the week do you actually spend "teaching" your children compared to the time it takes to plan it all out? Do the book purchases really break the bank?

 

We spend about an hour discussing history sometimes more depending on how deep we go. We do geography together most weeks, lit discussion has not taken more than half an hour or so...it is hard to gauge with toddlers in the mix sometimes we have to adjust our timing to keep them busy.

I buy books that I think are worth having, books that add to our home library. I decided that it was easier to have the books on hand rather than depending on the library. I find that with for us with little ones in the house it was a hassle to get to the library every week and try to gather up all the library books. Collecting books that we could use for all 5 of our children seems like a good investment.

 

Really most of the best living books are found in most of the popular curriculum. If I was doing Ambleside, Sonlight, WTM, or MFW I would still probably purchase a lot of the books I have now.

 

But, I don't buy them all. I fill in with spine books and this year (we are doing year 1) we are doing a lot of Bible reading. Some times like this week I will read The Hittite Warrior as a read aloud over the next few weeks. This is a dialectic lit book that in the notes was suggested to use as a read-aloud ( this was under budget tips). We will do narrations with this ala CM.

 

 

I like the fact that MFW really is that "CM cake" with all the ingredients baked right in, but is it missing the icing? I don't want to go the overkill route, but I don't want to deny my children the best education I can give them at home.

 

I love CM, I am drawn to a CM/WTM mix and that is why I tried MFW. I think for me it covered my strenghts and didn't help me with the CM that are challenging for me to cover. I don't think that MFW or TOG would deny your children the best education you can give them. You can lead your children and teach them, they have to embrace their education and be willing to learn and grow. No curriculum can guarantee that.

[~blessedmom~]

I've been mulling this over for a while now.....praying, researching, looking at samples.....just about pulling my hair out in frustration. I was convinced that there was this "perfect curriculum" out there and I would find it if I just searched hard enough. I was looking at the following curriculum for these specific reasons: (not that they don't have other qualities, this was just my particular focus...)

 

WTM for solid classical education

TOG for discussions and biblically woven history

TRISMS for research

Robinson Curriculum for independence

WP and Sonlight for literature

Christian Cottage for activities and field trip ideas

 

....but I have come to the conclusion that MFW has the best balance of all of this. Every single aspect I was researching is covered but not so much to the exclusion of everything else. It is effective and efficient. It fits my teaching style, my lifestyle (new baby!), and best of all it fits my children's learning style---yet it still manages to stretch us where we need to be stretched. There are some areas where I need to expect more of myself and my children, but then there are some areas where it's good to relax and let some natural learning take place.

 

MFW has been and will continue to be my roadmap through this! :D

 

THANK YOU to all of you who helped me in all this! I so appreciate your advice, insight, and the time you took to guide me. I even took notes!!:tongue_smilie:

[Donna A.]

WTM for solid classical education

TOG for discussions and biblically woven history

TRISMS for research

Robinson Curriculum for independence

WP and Sonlight for literature

Christian Cottage for activities and field trip ideas

 

....but I have come to the conclusion that MFW has the best balance of all of this. Every single aspect I was researching is covered but not so much to the exclusion of everything else. It is effective and efficient. It fits my teaching style, my lifestyle (new baby!), and best of all it fits my children's learning style---yet it still manages to stretch us where we need to be stretched. There are some areas where I need to expect more of myself and my children, but then there are some areas where it's good to relax and let some natural learning take place.

 

MFW has been and will continue to be my roadmap through this! :D

 

 

Ding Ding Ding Ding!!! :hurray:

 

Now you know why I've stuck with MFW, too! I like certain aspects of this curriculum or that one or the other thing.... but those packages are seriously lacking in the key components that are MOST important to our family. I always come back to MFW for that reason.... it has the best "balance" of all those things you listed.

 

Editing to say, "In my opinion." ;o)