Phonics - the bane of my existence

[razorbackmama]

Maybe use whiteboards instead of the tiles, and have dividers so that they can't see what the other is doing? Do the teaching part as a group, then have them take turns with you alone... Maybe someone who has actually used AAS will chime in.:tongue_smilie:

:lol::lol::lol:

[LanaTron]

Can you tell me more how it works? It seems to use (what I think is called) the "ladder" approach or something? Like ba, be, bi, bo, bu? (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) How does the child learn when the vowel is long or short with that method?

 

These aren't taught as syllables or units, if you will, at least not in Phonics Pathways. Phonics Pathways teaches blending and eye tracking. In that text, individual letter sounds are taught first, but the long vowel sounds are not taught at all, until the student is reading VCV words well. So, first they learn "a" (short, and all the other short vowels), then they learn "b" (and all the other individual consonant sounds). Next PP starts the blending/eye tracking with with just two letters. So, ba, be, bi, bo, bu--all short vowels because these are not syllables, but the blending of two sounds, "b" and the short-vowel sound they have learned. Then they move to blending three letters, i.e. ba-t, be-d, bi-b, bo-g, bu-n. Then the student works on just bat, bed, bib, etc.

 

The vowels are all short until they reach the lessons on silent-e. Silent-e at the end of a word makes the short vowel become long. This is the first time long vowels are introduced. Eventually, the other spelling patterns for both short and long vowels are introduced.

 

I have used this with three very different children, with great success. It's not "fun," but it is very simple, and it works.

 

HTH!

Edited February 6, 2009 by LanaTron

[Alana in Canada]

Until their reading skills have been remediated somewhat, I wouldn't have them on a reading program like "sit here on this couch and with this book and don't move until it's done" (which my Mother did to me, lol!) but perhaps you could make it a requirement that the olders read to your youngers, at least one book a day? Look at the "beginning readers" like Little Bear and Frog and Toad and Cynthia Rylant's Henry and Mudge Books. I would do this, though, only after you've started something and implemented it.

 

By the by, I teach both my children SWR together--and yes, I dictate the words and they write them down in two rows of ten. Then we read them across and make up sentences. The words in the lists are arranged in such a way that it is entirely feasible to write paragraphs on one topic with them most of the time. However, SWR is tough to "get into to" and I'm sre you'll find something better suited to you and just as good!

Good luck.

[Penelope]

One difference between a spaulding based method (WRTR, SWR) and an OG based method (Alphaphonics, AAS, HTTS) is the order in which phonograms are introduced. They all start off with "vertical phonics" I believe, but WRTR and SWR tend to introduce them in order of when they will come up with reading, and more of them all at once, .

 

This isn't entirely true. SWR introduces all 70 phonograms and has the child learn to write them, before spelling any words. When they introduce the spelling words, they do it in order of common usage, though, not by pattern.

 

The difference is supposed to be, that with SWR, the child isn't asked to read until he has learned something like 90 or 100 words. But then he can read real books, not only controlled readers like Bob books with one or two short vowel sounds at a time.

[Julieofsardis]

These aren't taught as syllables or units, if you will, at least not in Phonics Pathways. Phonics Pathways teaches blending and eye tracking. In that text, individual letter sounds are taught first, but the long vowel sounds are not taught at all, until the student is reading VCV words well. So, first they learn "a" (short, and all the other short vowels), then they learn "b" (and all the other individual consonant sounds). Next PP starts the blending/eye tracking with with just two letters. So, ba, be, bi, bo, bu--all short vowels because these are not syllables, but the blending of two sounds, "b" and the short-vowel sound they have learned. Then they move to blending three letters, i.e. ba-t, be-d, bi-b, bo-g, bu-n. Then the student works on just bat, bed, bib, etc.

 

The vowels are all short until they reach the lessons on silent-e. Silent-e at the end of a word makes the short vowel become long. This is the first time long vowels are introduced. Eventually, the other spelling patterns for both short and long vowels are introduced.

 

I have used this with three very different children, with great success. It's not "fun," but it is very simple, and it works.

 

HTH!

 

Why couldn't you teach closed syllables first. That's what Alphaphonics does. ab, eb, ib, ob, and ub. Then the child will not be confused by "the vowel says it's name at the end of the syllable" rule. You would still get the left to right tracking without any of the confusion. Then go on to do CVC words, etc.

[ElizabethB]

 

First of all, I told my dh about the "Why Johnny Doesn't Like to Read" article, and he is totally convinced this is him. He wasn't taught phonics, and he does not like reading at all. He DOES (he has to read the Code of Federal Regulations all the time:blink: and he has a doctorate), but it has ALWAYS been very draining for him. He has to be EXTREMELY interested in a topic for him to actually pick up a book and read it. Reading is not pleasurable to him AT ALL.

 

That said...is there any hope for him?

 

SO. Here is where we are. My questions:

 

1. Would you recommend staying with 100 EZ Lessons for the littles since it teaches how to sound out the word from the front? Then move to Webster's Speller? And then...????

 

2. And for that whatever "then" program...do you just start at the beginning and work through it? Where do you start when they already know how to read?

 

 

6. Since my whole goal is to encourage them to love (or at least tolerate;) ) reading, and they aren't USED to enjoying reading, should I assign them a certain amount of reading every day so they can realize that "oh, this isn't as hard as it used to be?" At what point would I do that (if I do)? Or should I just wait for them to pick up the books on their own?

 

7. In the vein of #5 and #6, so I wouldn't practice reading stories with them at all? Bob Books, Pathway readers, library books, etc.? When would I stop limiting them (if I do limit them)?

 

That may be all my questions for now....

 

Thanks so much everyone!:D

 

There is hope for your husband! I've successfully remediated several adults. It takes a lot of nonsense words to break the guessing habit and learn correctly. I'd have him, and all of your children, watch my online lessons. They start at the beginning, but use a lot of nonsense words, and are designed for people taught with sight words. Your youngest two might not last the whole movie, have them watch the first bit until they get tired. (They work fine for beginners, too, they just may be a bit complex at points for a young child.)

 

I'd also continue on with 100 EZ lessons, again, just work all the kids through it, you do need to start at the beginning again and learn how to sound out everything from left to right and break the habit of guessing. 4 is not too young, as long as they're enjoying it.

 

All good phonics and phonetically based spelling programs complement one another, it doesn't hurt to mix several methods.

 

Play the Phonics Concentration game with the whole family (including your husband!) It makes both real and nonsense words.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Phonics/concentrationgam.html

 

If you need more nonsense words for your husband, you could order "We All Can Read" by James Williams, 3rd grade and above version. It will also help your older children. It's a remedial reading program based on nonsense words.

 

http://weallcanread.com/

 

After you watch my online lessons, I'd work through Webster's Speller. Again, you could do it as a family. Learning the syllables should be especially helpful for your husband and your remedial children. Once they get to the 2 and 3+ syllable words, you should see them really start to take off.

 

You should NOT do any outside reading for a while, actually. I find my students learn faster when they just focus on learning the new skill and don't read any outside material until they've automated reading in a new way--left to right instead of whole word guessing. Reading allows people to guess from context, and also, 50+ percent of words in any normal text will be Dolch Sight Words, higher for specially dumbed down books, including many children's books. On my sight word page, the movie explains why it's important to limit outside reading:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/phonicsandspelli.html

 

Once they've mastered the phonics, after 2 or 3 months, allow them to read books again. At first, have them only read aloud to you, anything they miss, write down and practice that specific pattern they missed later. (For example, they read "fox" as "fax" and "code" as "cod," later work on short o and silent e words.

 

With that many family members needing remedial help, you'll get your money's worth out of Margaret Bishop's "The ABC's and All Their Tricks." It's a great phonics and spelling reference.

 

Are you originally from Arkansas? We're in Little Rock right now. Right now, they have a bunch of Razorback ice cream out that the family loves (I'm now allergic to milk, unfortunately, it does look yummy.) In our freezer we currently have "Woo Pig Chewy" and "Hog Heaven." They also have 2 or 3 other flavors.

Edited February 6, 2009 by ElizabethB

[Ellie]

ABeka's phonics instruction is excellent. And I think there's more to it than whether it's ba-be-bo or whatever the other one is, lol. I think it's the whole body of instruction, KWIM?

[Ellie]

Oh yes. One more thing. Spaulding programs have children mark words, underlining phonograms, marking sounds, etc. OG does not do this. They both use clue words.

*psst* It's Spalding, not SpaUlding. :-)

 

And there's only one Spalding. Its manual is the Writing Road to Reading. Other methods which are similar are not Spalding; they are Sanseri or whoever :-)

[razorbackmama]

There is hope for your husband!

 

YAY! He'll be glad to hear this.:) His career hasn't been affected LOL, but I'm sure that learning how to read phonetically will just make all his technical reading so much easier and less tiring. I am not kidding when I say this, he was KNOWN for falling asleep while he studied in veterinary school. (He's known for falling asleep anyway, but it's worse when he's reading.) I'm sure some of it is just that his brain was fried from having to read SO MUCH, after being taught whole word junk.

 

I'd also continue on with 100 EZ lessons, again, just work all the kids through it, you do need to start at the beginning again and learn how to sound out everything from left to right and break the habit of guessing.

INTERESTING. So you mean the older 3 as well? And I will definitely have to emphasis the reading it slow and fast, to train them so that they don't just look at the word that they already have memorized and have it "blip" onto their brain.

 

4 is not too young, as long as they're enjoying it.

Oh my word she LOOOOOOOOOVES it, and she is so proud of herself!!!:D

 

After you watch my online lessons, I'd work through Webster's Speller. Again, you could do it as a family. Learning the syllables should be especially helpful for your husband and your remedial children. Once they get to the 2 and 3+ syllable words, you should see them really start to take off.

For your online lessons, if they were to watch together, would they just respond all together as well?

 

You should NOT do any outside reading for a while, actually. I find my students learn faster when they just focus on learning the new skill and don't read any outside material until they've automated reading in a new way--left to right instead of whole word guessing. Reading allows people to guess from context, and also, 50+ percent of words in any normal text will be Dolch Sight Words, higher for specially dumbed down books, including many children's books. On my sight word page, the movie explains why it's important to limit outside reading:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/phonicsandspelli.html

 

TOTALLY makes sense. My oldest reads his science on his own...should I just read to him while we are working through this? I may have him take that M-something or other test you have on your site. As I read with him today he seemed to do semi-well with sounding out words, but we'll see.

 

Also what would you recommend for my husband? He has to read a lot for his job.

 

With that many family members needing remedial help, you'll get your money's worth out of Margaret Bishop's "The ABC's and All Their Tricks." It's a great phonics and spelling reference.

 

I think I've heard of that book before - I'll have to check it out.

 

Can you tell me more about the whole learning to spell in order to learn to read process? This concept is 100% foreign to me.

 

Are you originally from Arkansas? We're in Little Rock right now. Right now, they have a bunch of Razorback ice cream out that the family loves (I'm now allergic to milk, unfortunately, it does look yummy.) In our freezer we currently have "Woo Pig Chewy" and "Hog Heaven." They also have 2 or 3 other flavors.

YES!!! I grew up in Russellville, and my dh is from Perryville (about 45 min. from Little Rock). My parents live in Cabot.:) Dh and I lived in Perryville from 2001-2004. Dh and I went to Tech.:D

 

I had never heard of that ice cream...sounds heavenly! Is it red??? LOL

[razorbackmama]

All good phonics and phonetically based spelling programs complement one another, it doesn't hurt to mix several methods.

 

Do you recommend using several different materials at the same time? For example, working through 100 EZ Lessons with them all while at the same time having them use All About Spelling for spelling while at the same time doing your online lessons? That sort of thing? Or do you recommend moving from one to the next? 100 EZ Lessons THEN your online lessons THEN Webster's Speller, etc.?

[oliveview]

Do you recommend using several different materials at the same time? For example, working through 100 EZ Lessons with them all while at the same time having them use All About Spelling for spelling while at the same time doing your online lessons? That sort of thing? Or do you recommend moving from one to the next? 100 EZ Lessons THEN your online lessons THEN Webster's Speller, etc.?

 

This is the question I was just about to ask!:D

[razorbackmama]

This is the question I was just about to ask!:D

I tell ya, I have learned more about phonics and proper reading instruction in the past 2 days than I have in my entire homeschooling career (I'm in my 8th year).:eek:

 

It's all because of Elizabeth's article "Why Johnny Doesn't Like to Read." LOL

[katemary63]

 

YES!!! I grew up in Russellville, and my dh is from Perryville (about 45 min. from Little Rock). My parents live in Cabot.:) Dh and I lived in Perryville from 2001-2004. Dh and I went to Tech.:D

 

 

 

I live in Dover. My DD23 graduated from TECH and DD22 attends. But I'm FROM Kenosha, Wisconsin!

[razorbackmama]

I live in Dover. My DD23 graduated from TECH and DD22 attends. But I'm FROM Kenosha, Wisconsin!

I had some good friends growing up who lived there! They lived between Rsvl. and Dover so they went to my school LOL. I used to have a boyfriend that lived in Hector, so I used to drive through Dover all. the. time. LOL

 

I have several friends/family that now teach at Tech or somehow work there.

 

Small world!!!

[Ellie]

One difference between a spaulding based method (WRTR, SWR) and an OG based method (Alphaphonics, AAS, HTTS) is the order in which phonograms are introduced.

WRTR is not a "Spalding-based method." The method is Spalding. WRTR is the manual for teaching the Spalding Method.

 

Spalding teaches children to read by teaching them to spell (as does Sanseri), so I'm not sure how that fits into your definition of the difference between Spalding and OG, especially since Mrs. Spalding got her start with OG.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Ellie

[woolybear]

We have tried several approaches--OPGTTR, Teach your Child to REad in 100 easy lessons, Phonics Museum, Waldorf approach. Now, I must say, initially I gave up pretty quickly when something didn't seem like a fit. Also, I felt ds wasn't ready. However, in the last year we have given it more of a go. Last year I got the Explode the Code books which he also didn't like but my younger ds did. This year in September I pulled out the ETC book and handed it to younger ds. My other ds said, "What are doing? That's my book!" So I said, "It was, but you didn't like it so I'm giving it to him." WEll, then my ds wanted it to. So we have been using ETC for both of them and it seems to be working. It is slow, so maybe something else will be needed, but I think ds likes that it is easy for him. We also use all kinds of readers, including those from the PHonics Museum, which is just about the only part of the program he liked, lol.

 

And yes, I guess do whatever works!

[TraceyS/FL]

This was interesting!

 

I can't reach Abeka - tried, i had to do 2nd grade when we pulled DD out of school - TG she knew what she was doing with all those circles and marks.... and that i'd bought the TE :tongue_smilie:

 

I tried again with DD2 - combo of me not knowing what the HECK i was doing and her not being ready.

 

So i tried OPGTR with her.... fail.... (but more 100% her not being ready still).

 

I've clicked very well with BJU, i "get it", which means i can teach it. I know have Mrs Walker teaching it and she does a great job. Earlier it was mentioned to skip them sounding out a word if they didn't know it, i haven't read that, nor has Mrs suggested that on the Homesat lesson either. I have her read EVERYTHING - she needs the practice sounding them out.

 

Anyway, i feel like i can teach #3 with it too..... but those blend ladders - they give me a headache! LOL!!

 

BTW, i'm a child of the CA whole language reading in school, and apparently taught myself to read before school. So phonics is all foreign to me.

 

But thanks for the interesting read!!!

[daughterofsarah77]

Well prior to today my biggest dilemna was which Math to choose... now I am overwhelmed by the idea of teaching phonics.

I agree that any program used consistently can teach a child to read...but I am concerned about that spilling over to spelling, as well as impacting her enjoyment of reading down the road in her life.

I am married to a man, who while highly intelligent in other areas is a horrible speller and reader, and it makes me wonder...how do I make sure my dd doesn't turn out that way? My dh HATES to read...

[razorbackmama]

Earlier it was mentioned to skip them sounding out a word if they didn't know it, i haven't read that, nor has Mrs suggested that on the Homesat lesson either. I have her read EVERYTHING - she needs the practice sounding them out.

 

Nope, Mrs. Walker says it.;) She says to just tell them the word so that it doesn't mess up their comprehension of the sentence. I did sometimes have them sounding it out, but I always felt like I was doing it "wrong" since that's what Mrs. Walker said NOT to.

 

I'm guessing BJU's method works for some? I used to think it was The Best Way (I totally "get it" more than any other). But now, I think it is one of the reasons we are struggling like we are.:sad:

[Lovedtodeath]

This isn't entirely true. SWR introduces all 70 phonograms and has the child learn to write them, before spelling any words. When they introduce the spelling words, they do it in order of common usage, though, not by pattern.

Okay, I think you explained it a little better than I did.

 

WRTR is not a "Spalding-based method." The method is Spalding. WRTR is the manual for teaching the Spalding Method.

 

LOL! Well, I was pointing out the difference between Spalding and OG and all methods that would fall into those categories. I didn't know the picky squad was on the job. Someone always is though.;) I mean this in the friendliest way, I hope you know. Thank you for correcting my spelling. I have seen other people spell it as Spaulding and it made me get all confused and question myself. :tongue_smilie:So does WRTR introduce words in the same order as SWR? I will find the link that was comparing AAS (OG based) and SWR (Spalding based) and the order that words are introduced. I emphasized spelling because AAS is in order of spelling pattern. I knew I wasn't getting the point accross correctly.

[Lovedtodeath]

post comparing SWR & AAS

 

Can someone compare AAS to WRTR for me? Need help deciding between the two.

[ElizabethB]

Do you recommend using several different materials at the same time? For example, working through 100 EZ Lessons with them all while at the same time having them use All About Spelling for spelling while at the same time doing your online lessons? That sort of thing? Or do you recommend moving from one to the next? 100 EZ Lessons THEN your online lessons THEN Webster's Speller, etc.?

 

Either way is fine!

 

I generally work through one method, then go through another, doing only a word or two from sections that the student knows well, spending more time on a section where they need more practice.

 

With my current local remedial students, I've been giving them a copy of my lessons on CD or DVD to work through at home while I work through Webster's Speller with them, so they're doing two at once. A 6th grader I've been working with since this summer has watched through my movies 3 times and worked through Webster's 1 1/2 times and the Blend Phonics Reader once or twice. He has improved 2 grade levels since this summer, and makes slow but steady improvement. He still reads slow and needs a bit more work, but he's getting a lot better. Some students need a lot more repetition than others. A 5th grader went from the 4th grade to 8th grade reading level after 8 weeks of lessons twice a week.

 

With some of my remedial students in the past, I used 4 or 5 different methods. I now just generally use 2 or 3 of: Webster's Speller, my lessons, the Blend Phonics Reader, Phonics Pathways, and We All Can Read, but I have several other programs that I occasionally pull out.

 

Once my 3rd grade and older students start doing well, I'll also occasionally use M.K. Henry's "Words" with them, they love being able to tell their parents that they can read 3, 4, and 5 syllable Latin and Greek words.

[ElizabethB]

Also, how would I use AAS for reading? I'm TOTALLY foreign to the whole "spell first then read" sort of method. I'm used to the exact opposite.

 

Would I write some of the practice spelling words down and have them read them? Help.

 

Spelling and Reading are just two sides of the same coin: decoding and encoding. Teaching one helps the other. Phonetic spelling just naturally improves reading.

 

However, to make sure it's clicking, you can occasionally have them "spell" a word with its sounds, instead of letter names, have them recite the sounds one by one.

[razorbackmama]

Where could I find out what grade level they are reading at? I saw a thing on your site with a list of words, but I coiuldn't figure out how to actually use it. Do you have an explanaton somewhere or another way to figure it out?

[ElizabethB]

YAY! He'll be glad to hear this.:)

 

INTERESTING. So you mean the older 3 as well? And I will definitely have to emphasis the reading it slow and fast, to train them so that they don't just look at the word that they already have memorized and have it "blip" onto their brain.

 

Yes, the older three as well. You could work on at first having them say each sound before they say the word "/c/ /a/ /t/ cat," after a bit of doing that, you could let them say the whole word as long as you were sure they weren't reading it by sight.

 

For your online lessons, if they were to watch together, would they just respond all together as well?

 

Yes, have them respond together, and for the spelling portion, just have them each write down the answers on their own without cheating!

 

TOTALLY makes sense. My oldest reads his science on his own...should I just read to him while we are working through this? I may have him take that M-something or other test you have on your site. As I read with him today he seemed to do semi-well with sounding out words, but we'll see.

 

Yes, I'd read it to him. It's the MWIA, it would be good to give, if there is more than a 15% slowdown or they miss a lot more phonetic words than sight words, there is a problem. Initially after starting to remediate with phonics, the slowdown will increase, but over time it should improve.

 

Also what would you recommend for my husband? He has to read a lot for his job.

 

I'd recommend my online lessons, then the 2+ syllable words in Webster, if he needs more help breaking his sight word habits, "We All Can Read" by James Williams has a ton of nonsense words that should help. The Blend Phonics Reader may also help him and your older children. 100 Easy Lessons probably will not be that helpful for an adult with years and years of reading simple words by sight. The Blend Phonics Reader has words of similar configuration together, so it is helpful for older remedial children and adults.

 

I had never heard of that ice cream...sounds heavenly! Is it red??? LOL

 

The box is red. There is also a razorback pig on the box. They have a version with Raspberries in it that has streaks of red.

[razorbackmama]

Thank you, Elizabeth!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ElizabethB]

I tell ya, I have learned more about phonics and proper reading instruction in the past 2 days than I have in my entire homeschooling career (I'm in my 8th year).:eek:

 

It's all because of Elizabeth's article "Why Johnny Doesn't Like to Read." LOL

 

Thanks!

 

I've learned a lot here about math and other subjects. The last few months, school has gotten a lot more enjoyable, most of it due to what I've learned here. The most helpful has been a change to Singapore math and the purchase of a Flashmaster. Also, I finally broke down and ordered a Rainbow Resource Catalogue and purchased some new books in areas that needed a change.

[ElizabethB]

Earlier it was mentioned to skip them sounding out a word if they didn't know it, i haven't read that, nor has Mrs suggested that on the Homesat lesson either. I have her read EVERYTHING - she needs the practice sounding them out.

 

 

Good call! It's not a good practice to skip words, it leads to bad guessing habits and can stunt vocabulary growth.

 

If you have "diplahma" in your head and say it every time you read "diploma," eventually you'll probably hear the word and figure it out. But, even if you never figure out its correct pronunciation, you'll eventually learn the word from context even if you have a slightly off pronunciation going on in your head.

[Julieofsardis]

ABeka's phonics instruction is excellent. And I think there's more to it than whether it's ba-be-bo or whatever the other one is, lol. I think it's the whole body of instruction, KWIM?

 

I'm sure you're right. I have no experience with ABeka at all. I just know what I've heard about it.

 

Also, Lovedtodeath, I'm probably the one who misspelled Spalding with the u. I know I was at least ONE of the ones. Sorry!!!!

 

Julie

[ElizabethB]

I am married to a man, who while highly intelligent in other areas is a horrible speller and reader, and it makes me wonder...how do I make sure my dd doesn't turn out that way? My dh HATES to read...

 

Don't teach her any more than a handful of sight words, here's how:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/sightwords.html

 

And, use a good phonics method followed by a phonetic spelling method that teaches rules. Whatever method you choose, make sure she's sounding out every single word from left to right.

 

I plan on reviewing the phonics basics every year through at least 3rd grade and doing phonetic spelling through at least 6th grade.

 

I also recommend not using readers until your dd has learned all the phonics she needs to know to be able to sound out any word, but I'm a bit paranoid after teaching dozens of remedial students. I originally let my daughter read a few Bob books and A Beka readers when she was first learning to read, then I noticed she would occasionally guess at a word here and there while reading from them...I stopped letting her do outside reading for the most part and just worked through the entire Webster's Speller (we did it in K.) I would occasionally let her read a book aloud to me, if we got to a word I knew she hadn't learned to sound out yet, I would sound it out for her. When she completed Webster's Speller, I let her read on her own--she could read out of the KJV on her own! (But she prefers books closer to her level, although she likes to read more advanced material if there are horses involved. Also, she likes to read the text messages my husband sends. If I'm busy doing something, I'll have her read them to me.)

 

This quote from an 1851 reader talks about the importance of learning to spell (which at that time with the Speller included spelling and reading) before allowing the student to read:

 

I have one remark, however, to make, which, though it may seem at variance with the plans proposed and carried out by some with apparent success, I have little doubt will be found true, and that is, that it is scarcely possible to devote too much time to the spelling book. Teachers who are impatient of the slow progress of their pupils are too apt to lay it aside too soon. I have frequently seen the melancholy effects of this impatience. Among the many pupils that I have had under my charge, I have noticed that they who have made the most rapid progress in reading were invariably those who had been most faithfully drilled in the spelling book. A good hawk is better than a whole bag-full of game; and the fable of the hare and the tortoise applies as forcibly and as closely to the child's first endeavors as to any subsequent efforts. In the earlier stages of education, no better advice can be given than that which is conveyed in the quaint adage, Make haste slowly. Fruits and flowers produced by forcing in hot-beds rarely possess the raciness or the value of those which are properly and naturally matured.

 

Full quote in context here:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Spelling/spelling1851.html

[razorbackmama]

Thought of another question, Elizabeth.

 

When you are going through the "next" phonics program, do you start at the beginning, no matter how well they are reading?

 

At what point would I not have to work so intensely with my older kids?

[ElizabethB]

Where could I find out what grade level they are reading at? I saw a thing on your site with a list of words, but I coiuldn't figure out how to actually use it. Do you have an explanaton somewhere or another way to figure it out?

 

The NRRF Reading Grade Level test is the best, use part two. Part 1 is to identify their phonics strengths and weaknesses. (You could do part I if you want, too, but it has nothing to do with the grade level portion of the test.)

 

http://www.nrrf.org/readtest.html

 

Their reading grade level is the highest level numbered paragraph that they can read with 1 or less error. An error includes reading "hers" for "her" or "kitty" for "cat." If any of them pass up to the 6th grade level, use the 8, 10, and 12th grade level tests at the bottom of my testing page. (You probably won't need those until after phonics remediation, however.)

Edited February 7, 2009 by ElizabethB

[ElizabethB]

When you are going through the "next" phonics program, do you start at the beginning, no matter how well they are reading?

 

Two options:

 

1. Start at the beginning, just do a few words from each section, if they are having troubles, do the whole section, if not, move on.

 

2. Have them read from a book a bit above their reading level. Write down the words they miss, noting their portion of the word they had trouble with, wait until you've got a few words. Let them go play for a while, then work with them on the sounds they missed in the next program.

 

At what point would I not have to work so intensely with my older kids?

 

That point is generally reached in 12 to 20 hours of remedial work, but can be as low as 6 for a really quick student or as high as 30 to 40 hours for someone who needs a lot of repetition. At this point, they've learned all the major phonetic sound/spelling correspondences and are reading fairly well but still need a bit more practice. (This is the point where students are also generally reading at or just below grade level. With more work, my students eventually generally can read above grade level if I don't move before they reach this point.)

 

And, those estimates are using nonsense words and syllable programs like my remedial lessons and Webster's Speller. Using a regular phonics method as a primary method without syllables or nonsense words takes 2 to 4 times as long. (However, a regular phonics program is good for review.)

 

Students who are doing a lot of outside reading also slow down their time to reach this point.

[Snickerdoodle]

I have learned so much from this thread and by Elizabeth's website! My goodness I never knew about 1 syllable readers and this is exactly what I have been looking for.

[TraceyS/FL]

Nope, Mrs. Walker says it.;) She says to just tell them the word so that it doesn't mess up their comprehension of the sentence. I did sometimes have them sounding it out, but I always felt like I was doing it "wrong" since that's what Mrs. Walker said NOT to.

 

I'm guessing BJU's method works for some? I used to think it was The Best Way (I totally "get it" more than any other). But now, I think it is one of the reasons we are struggling like we are.:sad:

Really? she did? Huh.

 

We didn't start at the beginning since I was self teaching at the start. Mrs Walker and phonics 1 has been a godsend for us.... really truly.... that lady smiles all the time and never hollers at her for forgetting something the next day :D

 

Abeka and the blend ladder worked wonders for my oldest, but there is NO WAY that this middle one would be able to handle it. None. SHe was 9 before she could count to 20. And, i am teaching her "chucks" of words/blends, but in chunks that make sense to her.

 

That said, the child can't sound out words well - it didn't "stick" with her at all.

 

Good call! It's not a good practice to skip words, it leads to bad guessing habits and can stunt vocabulary growth.

 

If you have "diplahma" in your head and say it every time you read "diploma," eventually you'll probably hear the word and figure it out. But, even if you never figure out its correct pronunciation, you'll eventually learn the word from context even if you have a slightly off pronunciation going on in your head.

 

She also isn't allowed to silent read.... no way.... and I correct her while she is reading. Right or wrong, it's just what i have to do with her. It takes about a month for something to stick in her brain..... TG for Mrs Walker and her repeat level. :D

 

Back to reading......

[LanaTron]

Why couldn't you teach closed syllables first. That's what Alphaphonics does. ab, eb, ib, ob, and ub. Then the child will not be confused by "the vowel says it's name at the end of the syllable" rule. You would still get the left to right tracking without any of the confusion. Then go on to do CVC words, etc.

 

I don't propose that any one way of learning to read is better than another. It's probably like different math curricula, some will work with some children but not others. With learning to read, PP has worked just fine here, for all my students, but if the Alphaphonics method works better with a particular student or parent, that's great. It all comes out in the wash. :D

 

But, FWIW, there has been no confusion at all around here with learning ba, be, bi (short sounds) when learning to read, and then learning that open syllables ususally end with a long vowel sound.

[razorbackmama]

Elizabeth,

 

Here is where we are after administering the MWIA and the NRRF to a couple of my kids.

 

My almost 12yo is in 6th grade.

He has an 8% slow-down and a 92% phonic efficiency. The ratio of phonic errors to holistic errors is 1.85. He is at a 4th grade reading level independently.

 

My 8.5yo is in 3rd grade.

She has a 24% slow-down on Level II (13% on Level I) and a 62% phonic efficiency (on Level II). Her ratio of phonic errors to holistic errors is 1.92 (on Level II...oddly enough on Level I is was 4:001_huh: ). She is at a 1st grade reading level independently.

 

I still have to do my husband and redo my 10yo - I attempted it without a true stopwatch, and that was a dismal failure LOL.

 

Can you help me figure out what to do with these results? I see clearly that the 8.5yo needs remedial work, and I would totally agree with that. Her spelling is absolutely ATROCIOUS LOL. But what about my 11yo? His slow down wasn't much, but he made several errors (that he was able to correct when he went back and spelled them). But his independent reading level isn't where it needs to be.

 

I bought a copy of WRTR today, I have 100 EZ Lessons, I can have them watch your lessons, and I can get Webster's off of Don Potter's site. Eventually maybe use AAS as well??? Can you help me come up with a plan of attack?

 

I'm somewhat overwhelmed but very hopeful!!!!!

[Lovedtodeath]

If you use WRTR there is no need for AAS. AAS is used by many instead of WRTR because it is easier.

[razorbackmama]

 

If you use WRTR there is no need for AAS. AAS is used by many instead of WRTR because it is easier.

LOL well I was going with Elizabeth's advice of "overlearning," but you might be right. Maybe if they still need something else I can do some other sort of method that is different yet still teaches them to read left to right.

[ElizabethB]

Elizabeth,

 

Here is where we are after administering the MWIA and the NRRF to a couple of my kids.

 

My almost 12yo is in 6th grade.

He has an 8% slow-down and a 92% phonic efficiency. The ratio of phonic errors to holistic errors is 1.85. He is at a 4th grade reading level independently.

 

My 8.5yo is in 3rd grade.

She has a 24% slow-down on Level II (13% on Level I) and a 62% phonic efficiency (on Level II). Her ratio of phonic errors to holistic errors is 1.92 (on Level II...oddly enough on Level I is was 4:001_huh: ). She is at a 1st grade reading level independently.

 

I still have to do my husband and redo my 10yo - I attempted it without a true stopwatch, and that was a dismal failure LOL.

 

Can you help me figure out what to do with these results? I see clearly that the 8.5yo needs remedial work, and I would totally agree with that. Her spelling is absolutely ATROCIOUS LOL. But what about my 11yo? His slow down wasn't much, but he made several errors (that he was able to correct when he went back and spelled them). But his independent reading level isn't where it needs to be.

 

I bought a copy of WRTR today, I have 100 EZ Lessons, I can have them watch your lessons, and I can get Webster's off of Don Potter's site. Eventually maybe use AAS as well??? Can you help me come up with a plan of attack?

 

I'm somewhat overwhelmed but very hopeful!!!!!

 

I have trouble without a stopwatch myself, sometimes! I write down the start and stop time so I can double check it later! I'm going to buy some stopwatches for the next class, it is hard to keep up with for the level II MWIA, although it sounds easy, when you're in the middle of it, it is easy to forget something or make a mistake.

 

I had a 5th grade student whose slowdown was only 12%, he's my student who went from reading at the 4th grade level to reading at the 8th grade level. A student who is reading above grade level generally will have a 0% slowdown. (Remedial students may never reach 0%, but they usually improve and their reading grade level improves, as well.) A student trained with a good phonics method will generally have a very low or 0% slowdown and will not miss a single word on the phonetic list.

 

Your plan of attack sounds great. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised after they watch my lessons and do some 2 and 3+ syllable words in Webster. Like Lovedtodeath said, you should be fine without AAS, but if WRTR is too difficult to understand, you could get AAS instead. I find WRTR a bit confusing myself, actually, and I've been doing this for years! I haven't seen the whole AAS, but the online excerpts look user-friendly and well done.

 

You do want some over-learning, but it can be the same books and methods. A sixth grade student has watched my lessons 3 times and gone through Webster almost twice and through the Blend Phonics Reader 3 or 4 times, he's learned something each time and keeps improving his reading grade level as he goes through them.

 

The Blend Phonics Reader is also free at Don Potter's website, it is a good remedial resource, especially for the price! It's pretty short to print out, too.

[razorbackmama]

Thank you!:grouphug:

[razorbackmama]

I administered the MWIA to my dh. LOL. He had a 4% slowdown but zipped through both lists.:confused: Although the slowdown probably would have been greater because when he first started the holistic list he was going kind of slow. Then he was going so fast (on both lists) I could barely keep up LOL.

 

Also, so when we get past all this and my dc are awesome readers :D , would I be "safe" in using a regular reading curriculum (we use Christian Light right now), for the comprehension, poetry, analysis, etc.? What about for a young child coming up through the ranks? Would I want to hold off on anything like that until 2nd-3rd grade?

[ElizabethB]

Also, so when we get past all this and my dc are awesome readers :D , would I be "safe" in using a regular reading curriculum (we use Christian Light right now), for the comprehension, poetry, analysis, etc.? What about for a young child coming up through the ranks? Would I want to hold off on anything like that until 2nd-3rd grade?

 

As long as you're doing a bit of phonics review and/or phonetic spelling, they're safe doing regular reading once they've mastered phonics. I would have them read aloud to me for a while until I was sure they were not guessing or having any problems.

 

When you're getting them all to that point, make sure you take some time to play my phonics concentration game! It's fun and it's correlated to my phonics lessons. It will be a good activity to do with dad, as well.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Phonics/concentrationgam.html

 

If you want something they can do on their own (besides my lessons--although you should have an adult there to make sure they're paying attention and to pause the movie and have them repeat the rules to you, but that could be your husband!) you could try read, write, and type. It's a bit expensive, but you could try the demo and see if you think it is worth the time/money trade off.

 

http://www.talkingfingers.com/

[razorbackmama]

I did the MWIA on my 10yo, and he had only an 8% slowdown. I was SHOCKED LOL. He is the one that just sort of makes up words as we read aloud.

 

What do you suggest as far as their other schoolwork goes? They do their grammar pretty independently, but of course that involves reading.:confused: Do I need to have them pretty much halt any other schoolwork unless it involves hands-on or auditory stuff, until I go through your phonics lessons? Or will reading instructions, etc. be OK since it's not a huge amount? On the one hand I don't want to shoot myself in the foot, but on the other I don't want them to get behind in their other schoolwork (and I'm not normally a big person on "where" a child needs to be, but truly, we're already quite a bit behind as it is LOL). And on the OTHER hand (LOL), I physically am not able to read everything to them all.

[ElizabethB]

I did the MWIA on my 10yo, and he had only an 8% slowdown. I was SHOCKED LOL. He is the one that just sort of makes up words as we read aloud.

 

What do you suggest as far as their other schoolwork goes? They do their grammar pretty independently, but of course that involves reading.:confused: Do I need to have them pretty much halt any other schoolwork unless it involves hands-on or auditory stuff, until I go through your phonics lessons? Or will reading instructions, etc. be OK since it's not a huge amount? On the one hand I don't want to shoot myself in the foot, but on the other I don't want them to get behind in their other schoolwork (and I'm not normally a big person on "where" a child needs to be, but truly, we're already quite a bit behind as it is LOL). And on the OTHER hand (LOL), I physically am not able to read everything to them all.

 

A bit of reading is OK, it'll slow down their learning a bit compared to no reading at all, but will probably be the most efficient use of time overall with several children to teach and read to. Just don't let them do non-school reading and now would not be the time to have them read a lot of books as part of their history, I'd switch to books on tape for now or drop whole book reading. (This being said as someone who loves books, but it's just temporary! It will lead to more books being read in the long run.)

 

That is strange that a confirmed word guesser would have only an 8% slowdown! Maybe he studied the test trying to out do his siblings! Or, maybe he "can" sound things out when he wants to. People taught phonics with sight words can switch back and forth between sounding out and guessing mode, but usually revert to guessing mode when tired. At any rate, extra phonics can't hurt! Don Potter and I both read 700+ WPM, it hasn't harmed us at all.

[razorbackmama]

A bit of reading is OK, it'll slow down their learning a bit compared to no reading at all, but will probably be the most efficient use of time overall with several children to teach and read to.

 

Exactly why I was asking LOL! I teach 5 right now. LOL!

 

Just don't let them do non-school reading

 

No fear with that...that's one reason we're doing this...I'm hoping they'll begin to actually enjoy books. I have seen my 10yo read one book voluntarily EVER.:(

 

That is strange that a confirmed word guesser would have only an 8% slowdown! Maybe he studied the test trying to out do his siblings! Or, maybe he "can" sound things out when he wants to. People taught phonics with sight words can switch back and forth between sounding out and guessing mode, but usually revert to guessing mode when tired.

 

Well this was the 2nd time I'd tested him, since the first time I didn't have a stopwatch. So that may be it.

 

We did your phonics lesson 1 today, and they loved it!!! I had told them that it would be sort of boring but too bad LOL. Nope, they thought it was great! I think they REALLY like the nonsense words.

 

I also passed along your site to my mom, who works at the VA in adult education. She was taught whole words (looked at the word "bird" next to the picture of a bird :eek: ), HATES to read, and is a lousy speller. She also said that it would come in handy with the guys in her computer lab who aren't good readers. Thanks so much!!!

[ElizabethB]

We did your phonics lesson 1 today, and they loved it!!! I had told them that it would be sort of boring but too bad LOL. Nope, they thought it was great! I think they REALLY like the nonsense words.

 

I also passed along your site to my mom, who works at the VA in adult education. She was taught whole words (looked at the word "bird" next to the picture of a bird :eek: ), HATES to read, and is a lousy speller. She also said that it would come in handy with the guys in her computer lab who aren't good readers. Thanks so much!!!

 

I'm glad they liked it! They're not horrible, they just aren't as exciting as Starfall, which my daughter loved. I went for easy to make and small bandwidth so I could afford to put them online, anything more exciting takes up a lot of bandwidth.

 

I'm glad you've found a group of people who can use them (there are way too many out there, unfortunately.) A lot of people with reading difficulties gravitate toward technical fields. I met a guy with 2 Masters degrees (both technical) who had been very successful (he was retired) but basically could not read anything except the 2,000 to 5,000 words he had been taught in school. His wife helped him a lot, and he used an audio Bible.

[razorbackmama]

I'm glad they liked it! They're not horrible, they just aren't as exciting as Starfall, which my daughter loved. I went for easy to make and small bandwidth so I could afford to put them online, anything more exciting takes up a lot of bandwidth.

Yep, my kids are used to computer = "bells and whistles".;) And let's face it, phonics isn't really a whole lot of "fun" LOL! But I really liked what you put at the very beginning about how we just need to practice to build our foundation.:)

[Livingfate]

I don't even know where to start, so I'll just jump right in LOL.

 

From what I can tell, there are 2 main "methods" to teach phonics - word families (a la BJU - cat, rat, mat, sat) and the "other way" (not sure what it's called, a la A Beka - ca, ce, ci, co, cu). Right?

 

Which way is "better?"

 

We have always used word families simply because I personally couldn't figure out the other way. To me "ca" should have a long a sound, not a short one. I do realize that they put a consonant on the end eventually, but maybe I just haven't read enough of that sort of instruction to actually "get it?"

 

On the flip side, I can see where word families can cause problems because it kind of forces the child to sort of start at the end of the syllable rather than the beginning.

 

:confused:

 

Someone just posted a link to "Why Johnny Doesn't Like to Read" and I can so totally see my kids (and my dh!) in that.:sad: My kids haven't learned whole word (or whatever it's called), but one ds in particular does a L-O-T of guessing when he reads. I swear, sometimes he is just making up words as he goes along and I have NO clue what he is reading.:confused: He is the one I have to force to read, and I don't think I've ever seen him pick up a book to read for pleasure. He is 10.5.

 

I know next to nothing about "proper" phonics instruction - I taught myself to read using phonics off of Sesame Street, and that's been the extent of my phonics instruction LOL. We've always used the word family approach since it made sense to me, but I'm totally willing to learn the other way, if it's "better."

 

I just want to help my kids.:sad:

 

never mind found it thanks!