The more I watch the Duggar reality show, the more I...

[PamJH]

I guess I just don't see the equality here.

If one is submissive, one is superior. If one is charged with leadership over another, one must be led. Semantics, yes. But IMHO, very defining.

 

astrid

 

I have to agree. I can't imagine my husband having a final say like that. We compromise. My grandmothers would turn over in their graves if they thought any of their granddaughters were submissive in this context. My mother and stepmother, as well. Perhaps this works well for some families, but it would not for mine.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I can't imagine my husband having a final say like that. We compromise.

 

We had a situation like Carmen's example. We had moved to Louisianna for work. Hubby was between jobs (construction so that often was the case). He wanted to go back to Houston. I HATED the idea. I loved where we lived, our congregation, etc. I REALLY did not want to go back. He REALLY wanted to go back. First, he had a job lined up. Also, our families are there.

 

There was no compromise available. Either we were staying in Gonzales, LA or we were moving back to the East side of Houston. SOMEONE had to give.

 

Finally, I said, "we'll make it work whatever you decide."

 

Again, these situations are RARE. I know this came up on the board before. Many people had never had a situation where both parties felt so strongly about what should be done. Hopefully I don't have that situation more than a handful of times in my whole life. But I feel good about following the Bible's commands if it does ever come down to it again.

[Lovedtodeath]

I have to agree. I can't imagine my husband having a final say like that.

So who gets the final say? The one who pouts the longest, or yells the loudest? :confused: That doesn't seem like a good situation.

 

My DH has the final say, but he also has the wisdom to follow my decision on matters where I might have more knowlege in the particular area.

[Melissa in St Louis]

I am submissive not because I think my hubby is "better" than me, but as an act of love I lift him up. Generally, if I have an opinion about something major he defers to my thoughts because of the thousand little ways I am submissive every day. :auto:

 

Melissa in St Louis

[chaik76]

"But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God."--1 Corinthians 11:3.

 

Surely someone has to make the final decision on matters. Someone has to submit on something that mates disagree on.

 

For example: Lets say that DH really wants to move to South Carolina and I would rather stay here. He will take my feelings into consideration, but he has the final word on the matter, making sure that with his decision his goal is to the benefit the whole family. I will let my feelings be known in the matter, but in the end I will submit to his decision and do everything within my power to make it successful.

So who gets the final say? The one who pouts the longest, or yells the loudest? :confused: That doesn't seem like a good situation.

 

My DH has the final say, but he also has the wisdom to follow my decision on matters where I might have more knowlege in the particular area.

 

 

Actually...dh and I follow a different model (put forth by a Christian counselor). We don't do anything unless we both "enthusiastically agree". In other words, the final decision is neither dh's or mine. We must both not only agree, but be happy to agree. In a way it's like compromise, but there's a connotation with the word "compromise" that suggests that one party (or both) will get less than they want. In our case, we do not make the final decision until both of us are completely happy with it.

 

We feel that we are in compliance with what the Bible states.

[OnTheBrink]

Actually...dh and I follow a different model (put forth by a Christian counselor). We don't do anything unless we both "enthusiastically agree". In other words, the final decision is neither dh's or mine. We must both not only agree, but be happy to agree. In a way it's like compromise, but there's a connotation with the word "compromise" that suggests that one party (or both) will get less than they want. In our case, we do not make the final decision until both of us are completely happy with it.

 

We feel that we are in compliance with what the Bible states.

 

What happens if you never emphatically agree on something? Then what? (genuine question)

[chaik76]

What happens if you never emphatically agree on something? Then what? (genuine question)

It's happened. :rolleyes: We do nothing until we come to enthusiastic agreement. In the end...we have always come to agreement. Believe me, it's exceptionally hard!!! We have different ideas about budgeting, schooling, etc...and we've always managed to come to a place where we were both happy about the solution. It has made our marriage just absolutely wonderful (and requires lots and lots of hard work!).

 

ETA: There are a couple of times when it has literally taken us a couple of years to come to agreement!

[texascamps]

It is my opinion that one of the reasons those older girls are as sweet and likeable as they are is *because* of the consistent attitude of service to others that they've been taught. It seems ridiculous to like the result, but not approve of the process that got them there. I'm completely ok with having the older kids be responsible for carrying out the direction of the parents in caring for the younger ones.

 

As for the fact that you see the girls working, but not the boys, I'm sure that it's because the premise of the show is how the family functions, and not so much about the outside work that supports them. If you came in and looked at my home situation, it would be possible you'd have the impression that my girls serve the family and their brothers way too much. If you were looking at our overall situation, you'd see that my boys are serving their sisters too, but in a different way. The boys are off in the world doing what men do to support a family. Both are working, but we just see the girls at work because that's the focus of the show.

 

There's a lot of criticism about the fact that they've allowed cameras to intrude on their life *just for money*, but I'm not so sure that's the only reason the Duggars have agreed to doing the show. It seems clear to me from the tone of the show that there's an component of outreach for them--they are showing America a side of conservatism that many people simply don't know exists. A loving family with very traditional roles, going against the flow of current societal values, with wonderful results. That's also the reason I think they went out of their way and over-the-top to include so much about the "first kiss" and pre-wedding-night instruction. It's part of their point, to stress to the public that purity really can work and have a wonderful result. It's a ministry.

 

Just my opinion, of course, but it's hard to deny the fact that they seem to be doing a lot of things right and are seeing the fruits of their methods.

 

I was going to write the same thing! One of the best things we ever did for our oldest son was to have a baby. Because of the way kids have to set aside time and provide service to their siblings, they all have a real special sense of what family means. My oldest ds already exhibits excellent parenting/baby skills and shows great respect for girls. i know its because we had a baby girl that he diapered and bathed and dressed and held and pushed in swings and read stories to.

 

I hope our dd bonds as well with our next baby.

[Katrina]

So who gets the final say? The one who pouts the longest, or yells the loudest? :confused: That doesn't seem like a good situation.

 

My DH has the final say, but he also has the wisdom to follow my decision on matters where I might have more knowlege in the particular area.

 

I think that's a very false impression of nonsubmissive households. My husband and I talk and talk things over until we come to an agreement. The bigger the issue, the more important it is we agree together. I'm not saying that we don't have small squables like any couple, but my dh and I wont make a decision if one of us disagrees with it. Our ultimate goal is to have a happy, loving marriage and family. With that as our common goal, how could we not work together to make sure the decisions we make work for the both of us? After 14 years of marriage, we've never not been able to agree important issues.

[Lovedtodeath]

It's happened. :rolleyes: We do nothing until we come to enthusiastic agreement. In the end...we have always come to agreement. Believe me, it's exceptionally hard!!! We have different ideas about budgeting, schooling, etc...and we've always managed to come to a place where we were both happy about the solution. It has made our marriage just absolutely wonderful (and requires lots and lots of hard work!).

 

ETA: There are a couple of times when it has literally taken us a couple of years to come to agreement!

Well in the case of moving or not, then that would constitute me winning! :tongue_smilie:

 

I think that's a very false impression of nonsubmissive households. My husband and I talk and talk things over until we come to an agreement. The bigger the issue, the more important it is we agree together. I'm not saying that we don't have small squables like any couple, but my dh and I wont make a decision if one of us disagrees with it. Our ultimate goal is to have a happy, loving marriage and family. With that as our common goal, how could we not work together to make sure the decisions we make work for the both of us? After 14 years of marriage, we've never not been able to agree important issues.

 

I think that is very similiar to submissive households. Thank you for your input.

[OnTheBrink]

It's happened. :rolleyes: We do nothing until we come to enthusiastic agreement. In the end...we have always come to agreement. Believe me, it's exceptionally hard!!! We have different ideas about budgeting, schooling, etc...and we've always managed to come to a place where we were both happy about the solution. It has made our marriage just absolutely wonderful (and requires lots and lots of hard work!).

 

ETA: There are a couple of times when it has literally taken us a couple of years to come to agreement!

 

LOL, I can imagine!

[camibami]

See now, you all made my point!

 

I disagree strongly with many of the theological/cultural things the Duggars (most likely, as followers of Gothard) believe in. And I could argue about those for days.

 

But the family themselves? They seem to really have their heads on straight. Michelle pokes fun at Jim Bob's hair, the baby hits and says no, Jinger rolls her eyes, they laugh and hug, Michelle has this great family management system, Jim Bob really connects with his kids- all pretty normal stuff. I *wanted* them to creep me out, but while the legalistic religion they practice does, they themselves absolutely do not. I think we could hang out, LOL. I just like them!

 

I'm an official Duggar groupie, I guess.

 

Thanks for the interesting trails in this thread!

[Pamela H in Texas]

ETA: There are a couple of times when it has literally taken us a couple of years to come to agreement!

 

And in the meantime, SOMEONE is getting their way. The kids are either homeschooled or in school. You either live in Texas or Louisiana. There is either a job change or not. You either buy the item or not. You either have another child or not.

 

Ideally, no family is having ongoing concerns about any of that. But there might be an issue or two over many years (in our case, 15 or so).

 

Then, there are things that the other of us just doesn't care about. I can't see either of us getting excited about much, actually.

 

Mostly, we just go about our business. I handle mine, he handles his, we discuss things as we need to. We give a pass to the other naturally. But there has been a time or two where we just didn't agree and there was no compromise available, we were not going to agree at all (much less excitedly). So I am willing to gladly concede if it comes down to it. But seriously, how often does that happen in most GOOD households? I doubt very many. But God has outlined what to happen when it does.

[chaik76]

But God has outlined what to happen when it does.

Are you suggesting this is that women submit to the husbands (your might not be). I don't actually believe that the interpretation often put forth about wifely submission is the correct one.

 

 

You're right...until the agreement, you stay at status quo, or you make whatever small changes you might already have agreed on...but that doesn't necessarily mean one spouse is "getting their way". You might neither of you be getting your way...or you are both getting some of your way. I think it's a hard idea to understand if you haven't practiced it.

[katemary63]

Mostly, we just go about our business. I handle mine, he handles his, we discuss things as we need to. We give a pass to the other naturally. But there has been a time or two where we just didn't agree and there was no compromise available, we were not going to agree at all (much less excitedly). So I am willing to gladly concede if it comes down to it. But seriously, how often does that happen in most GOOD households? I doubt very many. But God has outlined what to happen when it does.

 

Amen, this is exactly how it is for us as I was trying to explain before - you said it better.

[Peri]

See now, you all made my point!

 

I disagree strongly with many of the theological/cultural things the Duggars (most likely, as followers of Gothard) believe in. And I could argue about those for days.

 

But the family themselves? They seem to really have their heads on straight. Michelle pokes fun at Jim Bob's hair, the baby hits and says no, Jinger rolls her eyes, they laugh and hug, Michelle has this great family management system, Jim Bob really connects with his kids- all pretty normal stuff. I *wanted* them to creep me out, but while the legalistic religion they practice does, they themselves absolutely do not. I think we could hang out, LOL. I just like them!

 

I'm an official Duggar groupie, I guess.

 

Thanks for the interesting trails in this thread!

 

I was the same way. Back when they had 14 and their documentary aired I had so expected to hear this sad poverty stricken story. It turned out to be just the opposite and I was soooo impressed with what I saw. I think that family is truly inspirational and I can't understand where the Duggar male bashing is coming from.

[Scarlett]

I'm always interested when these discussions about wifely submission pop up. I guess I'm a submissive wife. I didn't start out that way, though. I'm an independently minded woman from a long line of independently minded women. But my dh is such a kind, respectful, generous provider, filled with integrity and high morals and a deep love for God and his faith, that being submissive just seemed to happen. We have many deep discussions together about important matters, and he listens intently to me and respects my knowledge, but in the end I'm very comfortable leaving the decision making to him. (maybe I'm lazy....) Sometimes he's follows my thoughts, sometimes not.

 

Now, of course, there are many men who are not like that (and I thank God everyday for mine). And that's where I always find these conversations so interesting. They always seem to focus on what is required of the woman. How unfair and wrong it is. What about that which is required of the man. To love his wife as Christ loved the church. Isn't that a huge, monstrous responsibility to put on a man? Is that fair to expect so much out of him while the wife just has to go along with what he says? When I think about it, I would much rather be the wife than a man facing possible crucifixion.

 

It takes two, a man and woman, who are both wholly committed to living God's will in their life. If the man is doing his part, the woman's part isn't hard. If the woman is doing her part and respecting her dh, it's easier for the man to be the head. Unfortunately, being the fallen lot that we are, both sexes seem to fail quite often. But just because we don't do it right, doesn't mean God was wrong. Aren't we to live up to the ideal?

Janet

 

Well said.