hsmomof2boys Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 The Duggar website is: http://www.theduggarfamily.com I think that you can go to their son's and his wife's website from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 And the vows had the standard stuff, plus the vow for him to be under the headship of Christ and be her protector, and for her to be under his headship, be submissive to him and serve as his helpmeet, and they vowed to leave the family planning to the Lord to provide children as He sees fit. The Bible does give direct instruction in regards to the setup of the marriage relationship, and theirs does, truly, give honor to the Lord. It's just not what most people necessarily believe or want to hear (or practice). Yes, the Bible gives explicit instruction to husbands to honor their wives, and to love them as Christ loves the congregation. If husbands truly imitate Christ's example in leadership, it is not a hardship for a wife to be submissive. It basically means showing your husband respect and allowing him to have the final say on matters. He will of course take his wife's feelings into account and value her council, if he is following the proper example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 The Duggar website is: www.theduggarfamily.com I think that you can go to their son's and his wife's website from there. Ummm....that's not the right link. Generic page with an old man and a baby, selling breast pumps. FYI. astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katrina Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) I don't know...I was facinated with them at first with how they managed their household, but now they kinda creep me out. Maybe it's a territorial judgmental thing...because I think Michelle (is Michelle the name of the Dugger Mom?) is too sweet and idealistic and submissive (ick). (Okay, I am NOT debating, just stating I'm not a submissive wife so you understand where my point of view is.) However, with Kate, on Jon and Kate plus 8, sometimes I just want to whop her upside the head. She can be SO critical of her husband, and a huge neat freak. She needs to chill sometimes. But then on the other hand...with Little People, Big World, I think the Mom (Amy) in that show really needs to clean her house up a little. You know...I think I'm actually showing more of my undesirable judgmental trait here that I really didn't realize I had. :001_huh: As if I'm perfect, or my house perfectly clean, or never grouchy, or always speak to my dh in a kind voice (especially at 4:30 am when he gets up for work.) Edited January 30, 2009 by Katrina can't spell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Very serious. I can't speak for the Duggars, but I can speak for what is taught by Gothard and followed by others. I'm very thankful God was willing to overlook my 'generational sins' or whatever. I'm sure there's more than I'm aware of. I've always been impressed by the way they manage the household. Actually, I'm jealous of people who are so organized. It's my fantasy. If a woman willing enters into a marriage as a submissive wife, and their marriage works, there's nothing for me to get upset about. It's their marriage. The Duggars' lifestyle seems to be working for them - as far as what they protray on TV. I'm just uncomfortable with people broadcasting their lives. I'm actually uncomfortable with watching shows like that. I feel like a peeping tom. Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peri Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I love Michelle Duggar(sp). She is my role model ... not that I would want to have that many kids. She is a real good example of how a woman is the nucleus of her family. Her organizational skills are amazing and the way that everyone just pulls together and works together is awsome. I wish she would write a book. I would be the first to read it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peri Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I'm very thankful God was willing to overlook my 'generational sins' or whatever. I'm sure there's more than I'm aware of. I've always been impressed by the way they manage the household. Actually, I'm jealous of people who are so organized. It's my fantasy. If a woman willing enters into a marriage as a submissive wife, and their marriage works, there's nothing for me to get upset about. It's their marriage. The Duggars' lifestyle seems to be working for them - as far as what they protray on TV. I'm just uncomfortable with people broadcasting their lives. I'm actually uncomfortable with watching shows like that. I feel like a peeping tom. Janet I don't think there is anything submissive about her. That whole family is run at her comand and direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peri Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I haven't decided how I feel about the Duggars yet. They seem very sweet and very sincere. I do have trouble with populating the world with that many children when there are so many orphans available. I understand how most people want their "own" children, but they certainly have that. If it's their desire to have children in their lives, why not adopt some? They could have had, say three, biological children and adopted 15 more. Think of the love they could have shared with children that will probably never know the love of Mommy and Daddy. I also have trouble with the mom having baby after baby that are her children, not the children of her children. These are kids, not parents. They really shouldn't have to be responsible for their siblings to the extent the show portrays. Helping out is one thing, but raising them is entirely different. I'm not sure these children even have friends. At least, from what I have seen on the show, and I haven't watched it much, it seems they are totally engulfed in the responsibilities of raising children. I think that's wrong. They need to be children. I know this is going to sound wierd, but I read on their site that the growth of their family was not intentional. Michelle responded bady to the pill and they have a problem with other forms of birth control. I can understand where they are coming from because I also have the same issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julpost Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I love watching that family. The children all appear happy and healthy, Michelle appears content and peaceful even...the little that I have read, either about her or from her, have taught me a lot. I think the Lord has truly blessed them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsmomof2boys Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Quote: Originally Posted by hsmomof2boys The Duggar website is: www.theduggarfamily.com I think that you can go to their son's and his wife's website from there. I am so sorry--I really messed up on the site for the Duggars. This is it: http://www.duggarfamily.com That site didn't work for some reason, but it did before, so it must be down. This the site for joshua and his wife Anna. It works! http://www.ja20.com/home.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemytea Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 We always pray before a meal in a restaurant, as we do at home. It has nothing to do with being showy. We do it because we are thankful. We pray before our meals at home, and we pray when we eat out, too. We hold hands, and keep our voices lowered. I never once thought along the lines of what you just said. As a matter of fact, I feel that it makes the statement that I am not ashamed of Him when I am in the privacy of my own home, and I shouldn't be ashamed of Him when I am out. I admit that I feel uncomfortable sometimes, because I *don't* want to make a show of it, but I feel that it is the right thing to do - for me. Just offering a different perspective... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 We usually pray at a restaurant the same as at home, but quieter and brief, so as not to draw attention to ourselves. Daniel was accustomed to praying at the window in his room and he did not change this method when he knew he was being watched. If it makes you or others uncomfortable to pray in front of others at a restaurant you can certainly offer a silent unnoticeable prayer, like Nehemiah (1-5). In other words, I think that both ways of handling it are acceptable according to scripture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 We also pray in restaurants, but we aren't showy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mari Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I love Michelle Duggar(sp). She is my role model ... not that I would want to have that many kids. She is a real good example of how a woman is the nucleus of her family. Her organizational skills are amazing and the way that everyone just pulls together and works together is awsome. I wish she would write a book. I would be the first to read it! She did write a book with her husband. It's a new release and I'm reading it now. It's GREAT with lots of ideas and resources. You'll read about it in their website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Respectfully to recent posters.......... I *always* find wife only submission to be unhealthy. I don't believe it is the Biblical design. And I *definitely* think the vows exchanged by the young Duggar couple speak to a flawed and extra biblical design for a marriage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Respectfully to recent posters.......... I *always* find wife only submission to be unhealthy. I don't believe it is the Biblical design. Well, the vast majority that practice wifely submission are not looking to the scriptures as their model. So I both agree and disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 As a matter of fact, I feel that it makes the statement that I am not ashamed of Him when I am in the privacy of my own home, and I shouldn't be ashamed of Him when I am out. I admit that I feel uncomfortable sometimes, because I *don't* want to make a show of it, but I feel that it is the right thing to do - for me. Just offering a different perspective... Well, yeah....I can see that point too....but then again you probably don't have t.v cameras on ya...:) Maybe that was it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mari Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Well, the vast majority that practice wifely submission are not looking to the scriptures as their model. So I both agree and disagree. How can you seriously say that? I mean, how do you know what the majority are looking at as their model if not the Bible? And I don't understand the argument that it's not Biblical when clearly, as others have posted quoting scripture, wives are indeed encouraged to submit to their husbands? I think you and Joanne are getting caught up in a negative conotation of the word "submission" as judged by today's standards. There's nothing wrong with submitting to leadership. We all submit to leadership in one way or another throughout our lives. We did it as children and we certainly expect our own children to submit to our leadership as parents, don't we? We even do it as citizens of our country. We may not always agree with decisions made by our governmental leaders, but we also submit to their authority. Anna simply vowed to submit to her husband's leadership as head of their household. There's nothing wrong with that. He has her loyalty and trust that she will support the decisions he makes for their family. And guess what? She will be his most trusted advisor. He is the head, she is the heart. Because they courted, they know each other better than most before getting married. I don't think she would submit to his leadership if she didn't trust where he was leading her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 How can you seriously say that? Umm.....maybe because she's thought long and hard about it and she believes it? We all submit to leadership in one way or another throughout our lives. We did it as children and we certainly expect our own children to submit to our leadership as parents, don't we? In the case of parent/child, child/teacher, it is one who is less "powerful" submitting to one who is more powerful. The two are not equals. I think the issue comes when this is applied to marriage, where many folks feel that a husband and a wife should be equal partners in the union. At least that's my feeling. We even do it as citizens of our country. We may not always agree with decisions made by our governmental leaders, but we also submit to their authority. Do we? Because currently, Karl Rove is not submitting to the authority of the US Congress. ;) Because they courted, they know each other better than most before getting married. HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS????? I don't think that practicing courtship necessarily results in a more compatible couple nor one that knows each other any better than those who have a more conventional courtship/dating/engagement period. Please. I find this statement to be, forgive me, hogwash. I don't think she would submit to his leadership if she didn't trust where he was leading her And you know, after she's taken the plunge on cable TV, and joined this big family, what the heck choice does she REALLY have anymore? Suppose this is NOT a marriage made in heaven. Suppose she is REALLY unhappy and wants OUT. This girl's life, at the tender age of 20, is effectively scripted. Maybe things will be wonderful. But you know, things go wrong sometimes. Things go very wrong. My issue with the whole "submission" thing, coupled with the fact that these girls seem to be raised ONLY to become submissive wives and mothers, is that if things go south, or if something should happen to their husband, what options do they have? Are they prepared to go to work? Can they make decisions? Are they educated? Could they provide for a family? Could they provide for a family of 18 children? Say Josh Duggar pulls a Ted Haggard thing. Or a Jim Bakker thing. Or whatever. Not saying it will happen, but hey, it happens in the best of families, right? Will she have to stay with him? Has she sealed her fate at age 20? (and with no wine? ;)) I completely respect anyone's right to live their lives they way they see fit. But I do wonder about the ramifications for the future family. But hey....to each his/her own. They can do what they want, and I can express my opinions about it. astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 We usually pray at a restaurant the same as at home, but quieter and brief, so as not to draw attention to ourselves. We pray individually, silently. But my kids aren't little either. They are perfectly capable of doing their own prayers. I can't imagine neglecting to pray at a restaurant or anywhere else. I'm less thankful, in need, etc because I'm in public? nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I think you and Joanne are getting caught up in a negative conotation of the word "submission" as judged by today's standards. There's nothing wrong with submitting to leadership. We all submit to leadership in one way or another throughout our lives. We did it as children and we certainly expect our own children to submit to our leadership as parents, don't we? We even do it as citizens of our country. We may not always agree with decisions made by our governmental leaders, but we also submit to their authority. No, I'm not. I'm completely familiar with the conservative Christian understanding of wifely submission. I'm not "caught up" in a reaction to the word; I am reacting to my understanding of the roles, power and authority involved in a wife only submissive marriage. Anna simply vowed to submit to her husband's leadership as head of their household. There's nothing wrong with that. He has her loyalty and trust that she will support the decisions he makes for their family. And guess what? She will be his most trusted advisor. He is the head, she is the heart. Because they courted, they know each other better than most before getting married. I don't think she would submit to his leadership if she didn't trust where he was leading her. I find the first part extra Biblical. I certainly don't agree that "because they courted" they know each other better. I am categorically against the theology and perspective the Duggars embrace. By putting themselves "out there", they must also accept the reality that I can comment about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I *always* find wife only submission to be unhealthy. I don't believe it is the Biblical design. The sick way many "Christians" do it IS unhealthy. There is a HUGE difference. Satan has corrupted it and families and churches buy it hook line and sinker. And you're right, it's unhealthy, sickening even...and very sad. However, the Bible lays out a beautiful healthy design for the family. When not added to or taken away from, it's a good thing. I trust the ONLY true God who created us to know what is best for individuals and the family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Say Josh Duggar pulls a Ted Haggard thing. Or a Jim Bakker thing. Or whatever. Not saying it will happen, but hey, it happens in the best of families, right? Will she have to stay with him? Has she sealed her fate at age 20? (and with no wine? ) Depends. If they have the sick extra-Biblical junk going on? Maybe so. However, the scriptures do allow for the possibility for divorce for this situation and separation in other situations. God is much more loving than many churches. At the same time, he isn't in line with Satan's throw-away-society junk either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I'm completely familiar with the conservative Christian understanding of wifely submission. But in general, that is NOT what the Bible REALLY says. I totally agree that that is inappropriate and not Biblical. I feel sad for people caught up in that because they are so losing out on what God holds out for a family. But it is a whole 'nother thing to claim that the Bible doesn't give *A* family model, that includes a form of submission in the family. It is different, but not non-existent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in CA Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) I don't think there is anything submissive about her. That whole family is run at her comand and direction. Yes, but that's exactly where I think some people become confused. Submissive doesn't mean that the wife is not very much in charge of what happens in her home. It generally means that the wife agrees to do things as her husband would wish them done, and that should they disagree about something, she will yield to her husband's decisions & authority. Edited January 30, 2009 by Julie in CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) What Does Headship in Marriage Really Mean? This article states what I believe. I think that I am being misunderstood. I had more on my misunderstood post, but I couldn't get the wording right, and deleted it. I agree with Julie and Pamela. Sarah’s example shows that rather than merely living in her husband’s shadow, the wife is to be her husband’s “partner,” holding a place of honor. (Malachi 2:14)The Bible commands the husband to exercise his headship unselfishly, putting his wife’s benefit ahead of his own. Further, the Bible instructs a man to dwell with his wife “according to knowledge.” This Article adds to the previous one, in case anyone is further interested in the Bible's view of women. Man and Woman--A Dignified Role for Each - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site Edited January 30, 2009 by Lovedtodeath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mari Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Yes, but that's exactly where I think some people become confused. Submissive doesn't mean that the wife is not very much in charge of what happens in her home. It generally means that the wife agrees to do things as her husband would wish them done, and that should they disagree about something, she will yield to her husband's decisions & authority. Yes!!! This is exactly what it means. There is a misunderstanding among other posters about the word "submissive." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Quote:Originally Posted by Julie in CA Yes, but that's exactly where I think some people become confused. Submissive doesn't mean that the wife is not very much in charge of what happens in her home. It generally means that the wife agrees to do things as her husband would wish them done, and that should they disagree about something, she will yield to her husband's decisions & authority. Yes!!! This is exactly what it means. There is a misunderstanding among other posters about the word "submissive." I assure you, it's not misunderstanding. I get the assertion of wife only submission advocates that submission is not doormat. The Proverbs 31 woman was certainly not a doormat! It's not misunderstanding at all. It's complete disagreement that yielding to a husband's decisions or authority = biblical or healthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) I assure you, it's not misunderstanding. I get the assertion of wife only submission advocates that submission is not doormat. The Proverbs 31 woman was certainly not a doormat! It's not misunderstanding at all. It's complete disagreement that yielding to a husband's decisions or authority = biblical or healthy. "But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God."--1 Corinthians 11:3. Surely someone has to make the final decision on matters. Someone has to submit on something that mates disagree on. For example: Lets say that DH really wants to move to South Carolina and I would rather stay here. He will take my feelings into consideration, but he has the final word on the matter, making sure that with his decision his goal is to the benefit the whole family. I will let my feelings be known in the matter, but in the end I will submit to his decision and do everything within my power to make it successful. Edited January 30, 2009 by Lovedtodeath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I think it's sad and rather ignorant to automatically compartmentalize conservatives into this box that only allows for legalistic beliefs on marriage, divorce and submission, as if it were the conservatives who "wrote the rules". Scripture is pretty clear on these issues. If someone doesn't want to adhere to biblical instruction in those matters, it's not the fault of conservatives, nor does it make conservatives "wrong" because they do uphold that part of Scripture. Of course there are people who add to and take away from what Scripture says. But to paint every. single. conservative. with that brush is, well, it's just ignorant, short sighted and divisive. I get weary of "Oh, those nasty conservatives! Don't listen to them! They're just mean mean mean!" People need to take responsibility for their own lives and choices and realize that not everyone is going to agree with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mari Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Umm.....maybe because she's thought long and hard about it and she believes it? Okay, but you must also concede that Anna thought very long and hard about the vow she would say in front of God and her family. Their opinions far outweigh those of the masses of people watching the show or yours and mine for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Scripture is pretty clear on these issues. Of course there are people who add to and take away from what Scripture says. Well said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mari Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 In the case of parent/child, child/teacher, it is one who is less "powerful" submitting to one who is more powerful. The two are not equals. I think the issue comes when this is applied to marriage, where many folks feel that a husband and a wife should be equal partners in the union. At least that's my feeling. That's the problem right there. You are viewing it in terms of a "power struggle," that Anna is not Josh's equal because she took that vow. She did not degrade herself in any way. She is very much his equal in the eyes of God and Josh acknowledges that in his leadership. They are working TOGETHER toward reaching their goal of having a Godly marriage and family. Husbands and wives yield to each other in every healthy marriage. Her vow doesn't take her out of the decision making process. Let's give Anna some credit. They knew each other for 3 years. She knew exactly who she was marrying and what she was getting in to. She had plenty of choices and she still does, even when things go south. She can choose to break her vow or keep it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I get weary of "Oh, those nasty conservatives! Don't listen to them! They're just mean mean mean!" People need to take responsibility for their own lives and choices and realize that not everyone is going to agree with them. Likewise, perhaps people need to understand that not agreeing is not a matter of "not understanding" or "reaction to the word submission". I certainly don't expect to change the mind of the conservative community who holds a Duggar-similar view in paternal headship of the family. But on a message board discussing a family who put their private lives into the public sector, I deserve as much space to respectfully disagree as those defending it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fivetails Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 It's complete disagreement that yielding to a husband's decisions or authority = biblical or healthy. Do you mean that it's automatically unhealthy? (leaving biblical alone) ....how could it be unhealthy if both husband & wife love each other and have chosen to live their lives and view their relationship in that way? :) I "yield" to a lot of my husband's decisions (when he makes them LOL - he often says "whatever you want to do" ..in which case he has *still* made a decision..he's decided that I am to make the choice LOL) and I feel pretty happy and healthy about it. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Husbands and wives yield to each other in every healthy marriage. Mutual submission I agree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Do you mean that it's automatically unhealthy? (leaving biblical alone) ....how could it be unhealthy if both husband & wife love each other and have chosen to live their lives and view their relationship in that way? I don't believe that a healthy dynamic can be in place if one adult in a marriage is given *authority* or *ultimate say* over the other. So, yes, I think that wife only submission is automatically unhealthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaceyinLA Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 what is your take on the meaning of the scriptures that plainly state the wives should submit to the husbands? And don't get me wrong - I certainly believe with that comes a LOT of responsibility for the husband to behave a certain way toward his wife. I am not what one could possibly mistake for a submissive wife, though I have a lot of honor and respect for what God designed in that area. I just don't really have a husband who necessarily jumps at the chance to always be the head (though I do generally allow him the last word on major decisions if need be). And, to top it off, I'm a sinner and rebellious in that area (though I do pray about it a lot). I just want to know how you can, and do, justify disagreement with something that is so blatant in scripture? What do you back that up with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mari Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Likewise, perhaps people need to understand that not agreeing is not a matter of "not understanding" or "reaction to the word submission". I certainly don't expect to change the mind of the conservative community who holds a Duggar-similar view in paternal headship of the family. But on a message board discussing a family who put their private lives into the public sector, I deserve as much space to respectfully disagree as those defending it. No one said you did not have the right to post on this board. You can agree or disagree all you like. Your words tell me you're taking this way too personal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 There are many relationships with an abusive dynamic that both the husband and the wife contribute to. Misapplication of the meaning of the scriptures which talk about wifely subjection is sometimes a part of that dynamic. I think that this is where Joanne is coming from. There are many people who do not understand fully what wifely submission means, or they might erringly think that they are even more spiritual if they take that submission further. This can lead to an abusive dynamic in a relationship, which in the end is the worst thing that could happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fivetails Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I don't believe that a healthy dynamic can be in place if one adult in a marriage is given *authority* or *ultimate say* over the other. So, yes, I think that wife only submission is automatically unhealthy. Welll...like I said above, the relationship that I have with my husband is *happy* and *healthy*, even though I do see that the husband is the "head" of the home. I'd say that we do indeed have a "healthy dynamic".....that may not be the case for every couple, particularly if one person is not comfortable with the way things are, that much I can agree with. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peri Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) How can you seriously say that? I mean, how do you know what the majority are looking at as their model if not the Bible? And I don't understand the argument that it's not Biblical when clearly, as others have posted quoting scripture, wives are indeed encouraged to submit to their husbands? I think you and Joanne are getting caught up in a negative conotation of the word "submission" as judged by today's standards. There's nothing wrong with submitting to leadership. We all submit to leadership in one way or another throughout our lives. We did it as children and we certainly expect our own children to submit to our leadership as parents, don't we? We even do it as citizens of our country. We may not always agree with decisions made by our governmental leaders, but we also submit to their authority. Anna simply vowed to submit to her husband's leadership as head of their household. There's nothing wrong with that. He has her loyalty and trust that she will support the decisions he makes for their family. And guess what? She will be his most trusted advisor. He is the head, she is the heart. Because they courted, they know each other better than most before getting married. I don't think she would submit to his leadership if she didn't trust where he was leading her. It can be culturaly influenced too. But I like how the mother in My Big Fat Greek Wedding puts it: "The man is the head of the family but the woman is the neck and she can turn the head anyway she wants." I laughed so hard when I heard that. Edited January 30, 2009 by Peri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katrina Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 if anyone wants to understand the other side of the argument, here's a good book about it. Finally Feminist: A Pragmatic Christian Understanding of Gender by John G Stackhouse Jr. (sorry, I hve no clue how to post a link here, but you should be able to find it on Amazon easily enough). I'm not looking to change minds, but there are two valid sides to this discussion, and it's always good to understand the other side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I'm always interested when these discussions about wifely submission pop up. I guess I'm a submissive wife. I didn't start out that way, though. I'm an independently minded woman from a long line of independently minded women. But my dh is such a kind, respectful, generous provider, filled with integrity and high morals and a deep love for God and his faith, that being submissive just seemed to happen. We have many deep discussions together about important matters, and he listens intently to me and respects my knowledge, but in the end I'm very comfortable leaving the decision making to him. (maybe I'm lazy....) Sometimes he's follows my thoughts, sometimes not. Now, of course, there are many men who are not like that (and I thank God everyday for mine). And that's where I always find these conversations so interesting. They always seem to focus on what is required of the woman. How unfair and wrong it is. What about that which is required of the man. To love his wife as Christ loved the church. Isn't that a huge, monstrous responsibility to put on a man? Is that fair to expect so much out of him while the wife just has to go along with what he says? When I think about it, I would much rather be the wife than a man facing possible crucifixion. It takes two, a man and woman, who are both wholly committed to living God's will in their life. If the man is doing his part, the woman's part isn't hard. If the woman is doing her part and respecting her dh, it's easier for the man to be the head. Unfortunately, being the fallen lot that we are, both sexes seem to fail quite often. But just because we don't do it right, doesn't mean God was wrong. Aren't we to live up to the ideal? Of course, a woman needs support when things aren't right. I will never believe that a woman should submit to emotional or physical abuse, and that's when her church should be there for her. When her pastor or church aren't there for her, she's been failed. I'm remembering a woman that published a homeschooling magazine back in the 90's who had lived in an abusive married and got no support from her church. I guess I'm just rambling here and not really going anywhere, so I'll stop. :001_smile: Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) Very well said Janet. You summed it up quite nicely. Edited January 30, 2009 by Lovedtodeath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katemary63 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 My husband and I are equal in our marriage in every way but one. If it should happen that we disagree about something after having discussed it and listened carefully to each other's position, and if at that time, he feels that he needs to, he will have the final say. Lot's of times he will let me have the final say with something like, "Well, I still disagree, but go ahead if you really think it's best." But other times, he is convicted that he needs to take a stand and make the decision to his way of thinking. I then concede. I am happy to do it. I respect him and his position as leader and this arrangement fosters peace in our relationship. He would NEVER abuse this authority as that would be sin and he does not treat me like a second class citizen, he consults me on everything. This is the way it's supposed to be according to the Bible - mutual submission with one in the lead position should it be needed. No controle issues, no domineering personalities. Just mutual respect and benevolent leadership. It works! We will have our 25th anniversary in Aug. of this year and are still madly in love! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 My husband and I are equal in our marriage in every way but one. If it should happen that we disagree about something after having discussed it and listened carefully to each other's position, and if at that time, he feels that he needs to, he will have the final say. Lot's of times he will let me have the final say with something like, "Well, I still disagree, but go ahead if you really think it's best." But other times, he is convicted that he needs to take a stand and make the decision to his way of thinking. I then concede. I am happy to do it. I respect him and his position as leader and this arrangement fosters peace in our relationship. He would NEVER abuse this authority as that would be sin and he does not treat me like a second class citizen, he consults me on everything. This is the way it's supposed to be according to the Bible - mutual submission with one in the lead position should it be needed. No controle issues, no domineering personalities. Just mutual respect and benevolent leadership. It works! We will have our 25th anniversary in Aug. of this year and are still madly in love! Amen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I guess I just don't see the equality here. If one is submissive, one is superior. If one is charged with leadership over another, one must be led. Semantics, yes. But IMHO, very defining. astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I guess I just don't see the equality here. If one is submissive, one is superior. If one is charged with leadership over another, one must be led. Semantics, yes. But IMHO, very defining. astrid It depends on the family...there are extreme patriarchialists that believe that the woman should not even counsel her husband. Then there are those that are complementarians...they believe that both are equal, but have differing roles. Each counsels the other. But as Janet pointed out, when it comes down to the line, one needs to be the head for what is BEST for the family (they must view this as a servant/leader type position). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I'm always interested when these discussions about wifely submission pop up. I guess I'm a submissive wife. I didn't start out that way, though. I'm an independently minded woman from a long line of independently minded women. But my dh is such a kind, respectful, generous provider, filled with integrity and high morals and a deep love for God and his faith, that being submissive just seemed to happen. We have many deep discussions together about important matters, and he listens intently to me and respects my knowledge, but in the end I'm very comfortable leaving the decision making to him. (maybe I'm lazy....) Sometimes he's follows my thoughts, sometimes not. Now, of course, there are many men who are not like that (and I thank God everyday for mine). And that's where I always find these conversations so interesting. They always seem to focus on what is required of the woman. How unfair and wrong it is. What about that which is required of the man. To love his wife as Christ loved the church. Isn't that a huge, monstrous responsibility to put on a man? Is that fair to expect so much out of him while the wife just has to go along with what he says? When I think about it, I would much rather be the wife than a man facing possible crucifixion. It takes two, a man and woman, who are both wholly committed to living God's will in their life. If the man is doing his part, the woman's part isn't hard. If the woman is doing her part and respecting her dh, it's easier for the man to be the head. Unfortunately, being the fallen lot that we are, both sexes seem to fail quite often. But just because we don't do it right, doesn't mean God was wrong. Aren't we to live up to the ideal? Of course, a woman needs support when things aren't right. I will never believe that a woman should submit to emotional or physical abuse, and that's when her church should be there for her. When her pastor or church aren't there for her, she's been failed. I'm remembering a woman that published a homeschooling magazine back in the 90's who had lived in an abusive married and got no support from her church. I guess I'm just rambling here and not really going anywhere, so I'll stop. :001_smile: Janet That's beautiful. Thank you for posting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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