Ongoing Review of AOPS - Geometry

[shawthorne44]

 

I thought I'd start a review of Geometry.   I say ongoing because the class doesn't officially start for a couple of weeks, so I'll update as we go along.   

We school year-round with breaks throughout the year as needed or when my parents miss her too much.  So, once something ends, we start on the next.  DD just finished the Algrebra 1 book.   I think it is called Intro to Algebra.  So I had her start on the Geometry book, and the alumnus.   I want her to be ahead on that aspect when the class start to give her to leeway when she goes to camp grandparents.   This is first class with AOPS.   The only other official online class she'd completed is FundaFunda programming.  

I thought it was neat that the alumnus had the due dates by each lesson.  

 

[daijobu]

I'm not sure if you are asking for feedback, but I think you are on the right track.  

It's a good habit to work ahead in class before lecture.  You should also know that many students are taking an AoPS class  for example, after they've already studied geometry in their B&M school, so it's good for your student to not be discouraged.  

Sometimes there's a fair bit of a lag in the online lectures as the TAs are answering questions.  I often wondered if my computer was frozen, but it's just a slow-moving class.  

Encourage your student to take advantage of the "whisper" option, even if it's off topic.  Other students in the classroom won't see it, and  you can use that opportunity to ask questions of the TAs in real time.  

I also schooled year round and loved it.  We took breaks on our own schedule (same as you, for camps or traveling). If we finished algebra on Tuesday, we continued with geometry on Wednesday, eg.  You never know if you'll need the extra time later on due to unforeseen schedule hiccups. 

You're off to a great start!   

[shawthorne44]

Thanks, feedback is always helpful.  Once she starts, I'll tell her that some of the other students will have already taken an easier geometry class.    I know my geometry class had been much easier.  I'll mention the whisper option to her.   I have zero idea what that is.  

Here in Texas it is easy to explain to people why we school round.  "August is a good time to stay inside and get lots of schoolwork done, and October is a great time to be outside."   

[Not_a_Number]

On 10/1/2023 at 7:55 PM, shawthorne44 said:

Here in Texas it is easy to explain to people why we school round.  "August is a good time to stay inside and get lots of schoolwork done, and October is a great time to be outside."   

As someone who lived in Texas for 7 years, I really hear you on that one . . . 

I'll be following along! I taught at AoPS and as the teacher, the geometry class is rather tricky, because there are often so many possible correct answers. Plus, they use the class as an introduction to proof, so there's just a lot of material there all together!! 

[shawthorne44]

18 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

As someone who lived in Texas for 7 years, I really hear you on that one . . . 

I'll be following along! I taught at AoPS and as the teacher, the geometry class is rather tricky, because there are often so many possible correct answers. Plus, they use the class as an introduction to proof, so there's just a lot of material there all together!! 

 

Yeah, I hear you on that.   Both DH and I have Physics degrees, which meant we had enough math classes to double major in Math.   Those geometry proofs just aren't our thing.   When the answer should be 7 and she tells us 9, there isn't an argument that "the answer is fine."    I could totally see that happening with Proofs.   I'd been wanting to ease her into official classes with lectures, grading, etc. anyway.  So, this seemed like a good time to basically pay someone else to grade.   We also need to work on her showing work in a linear fashion.   She tends to treat "showing work" in a scratch-pad manner.   So, she she'll on this part of the page, then runs out of room and picks a random blank spot on the page to continue.   Drives me batty.   Proofs, since the middle part is important, that won't fly.   I also told her to review the stuff online on how to do geometry proofs.   

She showed me recently the 5 trial runs she did to figure out an alcumus problem.  It described some triangles, then she had to correctly draw it in order to get the answer.  
 

 

[shawthorne44]

Class starts Sunday.  We are a bit excited.  I imagine that the Alcumus problems are the easiest of the ones for the class.  But, the geometry alcumus problem seem much easier than the algebra alcumus.   Maybe because she's familiar now with the non-comic book textbook and the online problems.   But she's getting to Mastery in about 10 minutes per lesson.   Or maybe the Beast Academy geometry stuff prepared her well.    

I told her about many in the class having already had Geometry at a middle school and she said blithely, "I've had it too," referring to the BA stuff.   She also already knew about the Whisper thing.  Kids these days know so much.   According to her the Whisper function is when you might be asking a dumb question.   

 

[Porridge]

Geometry was DD’s favorite AoPS class. I hope your DD enjoys it!

[daijobu]

39 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

I told her about many in the class having already had Geometry at a middle school and she said blithely, "I've had it too," referring to the BA stuff.   She also already knew about the Whisper thing.  Kids these days know so much.   According to her the Whisper function is when you might be asking a dumb question.   

 

I'll try not to take that personally.  😉

Once I showed up late for class and was working through the transcript well behind everyone else.  I had a question, so I used Whisper to ask something along the lines of, "I'm still catching up with the class, but could you explain why..."  And I received a helpful reply and I was able to catch up, because class moves so slowly anyway.  

The nice thing about Whisper is you can ask a slightly OT question without worrying about it distracting other students.  

[shawthorne44]

So, she did her first class.   She said it was cool.   The class wasn't quite what I expected since it didn't have sound.  But it seemed to work.  

They post homework a week in advance, so they had the Week1 homework posted before the class started.   Then the homework is due a couple of weeks after.  So that seems that it allows a lot of flexibility for people like us that take random breaks when other people don't.    For example, we have a week-long cruise in Feb.   Deliberately scheduled for when other kids are in school.   

As a Nervous Nellie, I wish they posted work more than a week in advance.  But I admit that is just me.   I'd rather she stay two weeks ahead.  

 

[desertflower]

I just want to confirm that all of AoPS Geometry and up online classes are text based, correct?  Meaning we don't see the teacher doing examples on a whiteboard.  Thanks. 

[Porridge]

1 hour ago, desertflower said:

I just want to confirm that all of AoPS Geometry and up online classes are text based, correct?  Meaning we don't see the teacher doing examples on a whiteboard.  Thanks. 

All text based. No audio or video 

[desertflower]

34 minutes ago, Porridge said:

All text based. No audio or video 

Thanks!

[Malam]

14 hours ago, desertflower said:

I just want to confirm that all of AoPS Geometry and up online classes are text based, correct?  Meaning we don't see the teacher doing examples on a whiteboard.  Thanks. 

Yes, but I think the AoPS Virtual Campus and WTMA and RFWP courses are video based

[shawthorne44]

Also, to be fair, alcumus has videos of the fearless leader explaining things.  

[desertflower]

6 hours ago, Malam said:

Yes, but I think the AoPS Virtual Campus and WTMA and RFWP courses are video based

Thanks!

 

[Not_a_Number]

On 10/16/2023 at 3:33 PM, desertflower said:

I just want to confirm that all of AoPS Geometry and up online classes are text based, correct?  Meaning we don't see the teacher doing examples on a whiteboard.  Thanks. 

That's right. 

It has advantages and disadvantages. The kids get to participate a lot more than they would in a live class. 

[shawthorne44]

Thoughts after the first week.   I am pleased with the level of the challenge problems.   Also that they required the challenge problems and not added in a bunch normal problems beyond the alcumus.   Kids can do the problems in the book as needed.   I'd gotten one of the problems wrong when DD asked me about it, she had been right.   🙂   

I'd been wrong about when the homework was due.  Week 1 homework is due around the time of the Week 2 lecture.  So, they have about two weeks from when the homework was given.  

Unrelated, but y'll might be amused.   Heard in our house yesterday.   
Me:  "Hey, why aren't you still working on your science test?"

DD: "Oh, sorry, I got distracted."  
Me, "Was a cat involved"  
DD: "Noooo (embarrassed) "

Me, "Then there is no excuse"  

 

[shawthorne44]

She told me yesterday that the kids talk before the class started.  Apparently they all said that their favorite game was (I forget).   But that she'd checked out the game and thought it was dumb.    But the important part was that she seemed to enjoy that little bit of connection with random kids. 

Note, we don't keep her locked in a basement, but we do live in a small town.  

[shawthorne44]

We are in week 3.   Her first proof was very weak but that was to be expected.  They provided an example for her to use for the next one, and the second one she did looks much better to me.  Still happy with the class.  She isn't complaining and she isn't behind.  

[shawthorne44]

Week 5 is due on the 20th.  It has started to get real.   Of course, a big problem was that DD kept looking at week 6 when I was telling her to get week 5 done.   So, she's got a few challenge problems done in week 6.   I'm hearing some complaints because she is having to work.   

[daijobu]

6 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

Week 5 is due on the 20th.  It has started to get real.   

What chapter in the book is this?  

[shawthorne44]

18 hours ago, daijobu said:

What chapter in the book is this?  

 

Last two sections of Chapter 5, and first two of Chapter 6.   

[daijobu]

Oh I was wrong.  I think chapter 7 is when it gets real, lol.  Watch out for chapter 7.  

[shawthorne44]

On 11/17/2023 at 2:55 PM, daijobu said:

Oh I was wrong.  I think chapter 7 is when it gets real, lol.  Watch out for chapter 7.  

 

I think a lot of it was DD.   She somehow forgot that Week 5 existed.  Looking back when she should have been working on Week 5 she was working on the next Alumnus, which I think is assigned in late Feb.   Then she did half of week 6.   Then when I pointed out that No, she hadn't done week 5, then she panicked.  

[shawthorne44]

The holiday breaks seem nicely generous.  They tell you ahead of time what days there won't be classes, but I must have miscalculated because I was thinking only one week off for Christmas.  This is a screenshot from her report.  The Date column is the class date.  Daughter spends a week at Camp Grandparents before Christmas, so this two weeks off will be nice.  I want her to stay a week ahead so that when we cruise for a week in Feb. she won't get behind.   She's had to request an extension last week because she'd had one problem for Week 5 that wasn't done.  That was approved automatically.   I don't know if that was because it was the week of Thanksgiving, or her first time to request.  

Edited November 27, 2023 by shawthorne44

[Not_a_Number]

8 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

She's had to request an extension last week because she'd had one problem for Week 5 that wasn't done. 

Was this for a Writing Problem or a Challenge Problem? Because you don't need extensions for the latter. 

[shawthorne44]

It was a challenge problem.   I didn't know that.   Although I'll happily let DD stay in ignorance. 

Plus, I am a bit peeved with her at the moment.  She got a 0 on a writing problem because she copied it straight from Google.  Then yesterday she 'cleaned' the living room and put a pile of papers that I'd needed to sort through (and contained some important ones) into the burn pile next to our wood stove.  It also contained a school book and one of her treasured Lego books.  Because of the Lego book I don't think there was malice, just laziness.  But, now my sort pile just got MUCH bigger.   

Edited November 28, 2023 by shawthorne44

[shawthorne44]

It is now Week 15.   She's gotten into the groove.   daijobu wasn't joking about Week 7.   This is her report card so far.  Notice which one she struggled with.  I also still struggling getting her to ask them questions.   She'll ask me, and I don't know and I'll tell her to post a question.   I look later, and she hasn't.   Why doesn't she listen to me?  

 

She isn't a week ahead like I'd hoped for, but she is at least caught up, and she's done this week's Proof.   In addition to proofs, this has also been an introduction to note taking, at least taking notes from the book.  

I definitely want her to stay with the AOPS online classes.   Although, as a break I might have her do the Number Theory book on her own, and Algrebra 1 drills.  

 

 

[SanDiegoMom]

How old is she? My son was nervous about asking questions for a long time before finally he just did it enough to get over his fear. 
 

Then he found that often times it took a LOT to have the question be useful - the answer always started out very cryptic and “leading”, and he had to engage over multiple back and forths before he got any useful help.  
 

We did a combination of online classes and just working through the books.  Working through the books fostered a deeper knowledge base because there was time to do more problems, but the downside was not having a teacher to ask questions, as I was not able to help. Once the videos dropped off (around Algebra 2 I think?) we were on our own.  
 

My son found the Geometry class to be pretty tough, and the Intermediate Algebra was challenging (though not overly so - just enough).  Intermediate Number Theory was HARD, so he had a very clear schedule to devote most of his brain power to that.  He had no writing curriculum that year - it was mostly math, science and then just reading books. 

[shawthorne44]

She's 13, so teenager with all that comes with it.   

Just this morning I said to her, "Ask the question.  It shows you are engaged with the work.  I can't answer because I haven't read the book."   The response was a teenage dismissive noise.  
The videos are really nice.   She'll miss those.  

She did ask what it takes to be a Math Tutor as if that might be something she'd want to do in the near future for extra money.   

 

[daijobu]

On 2/13/2024 at 10:07 AM, shawthorne44 said:

I definitely want her to stay with the AOPS online classes.   Although, as a break I might have her do the Number Theory book on her own,

I felt like the AoPS NT textbook was the weakest of the bunch.  There are a lot of tedious calculations in the first half.  The second half about modular arithmetic is excellent, but unfortunately it stops just short of Chinese Remainder Theorem.  I suspect the online Intro NT class might be a better option.   

7 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

Then he found that often times it took a LOT to have the question be useful - the answer always started out very cryptic and “leading”, and he had to engage over multiple back and forths before he got any useful help.  

I've seen AoPS discussions threads that devolve into a poop-show of multiple students asking their individual questions and responses from multiple TAs all together in one confusing thread.  I've seen TA's mix up their variables, leading to still more confusion.  Students post their partial solutions which remain until someone thinks to redact it.  It isn't an ideal format for helping students.  

I'm not surprised to find students are reluctant to join the fray.  

[Porridge]

Askign Qs through the online discussion boards is not easy. There is a lot of "lag" time between posting and getting an answer. If they don't ask in the right way (give adequate info), the TA may need to ask multiple rounds of clarifying Qs before they actually answer your child's original point of confusion. It's not super easy to navigate, even for kids with strong EF skills (IMHO).  I did a lot of coaching for my DD on how to ask a question - how much background info to give in order to optimize chances of getting efficient and helpful answers.

DD did AoPS online for Into to Alg B, Geometry, Intro C&P, Intermediate Alg, Pre-Calc.  This year, she switched to a synchronous class taught by the teacher who was her AoPS Online Geometry teacher (she's since branched out to offer her own classes online). While DD LOVED (loved, loved) her AoPS Online classes, she appreciates having live office hours and real-person interaction.  

 

On tutoring - DD now has 2 math tutoring gigs and has really enjoyed it! One student is a 5th grader whose mom wanted enrichment, the other is a student going through AoPS Online Intermediate Alg who wasn't getting enough support through the discussion forums, and needed a real person to help guide her through hard problems.  DD has learned so much about how to teach, how to interact with clients / parents, how to manage time, etc. So if your DD is interested in tutoring, it's a great, educational job!

[SanDiegoMom]

23 hours ago, Porridge said:

Askign Qs through the online discussion boards is not easy. There is a lot of "lag" time between posting and getting an answer. If they don't ask in the right way (give adequate info), the TA may need to ask multiple rounds of clarifying Qs before they actually answer your child's original point of confusion. It's not super easy to navigate, even for kids with strong EF skills (IMHO).  I did a lot of coaching for my DD on how to ask a question - how much background info to give in order to optimize chances of getting efficient and helpful answers.

 

 

 

My son finally perfected the skill of asking questions by giving all the information he knew and all the things he had tried already.  Asking for help is definitely is a skill in itself. 

[shawthorne44]

We are in Week 19-ish.   I am really impressed with the Geometry class.  She has figured out if she gets the challenge problems done right the first time, she gets a high score on it, and therefore has to do fewer challenge problems. She got a low score on the last writing problem, so I'll be looking over her next one.   
I'm pleased that the next three weeks are A.G., and then the final two weeks are an intro to trig.  
I'm also impressed with the challenge problems.   I'll look at them and think, "There isn't near enough information provided."  But there is.   Like one recently where the provided info was the areas of the three different sides of a rect. prism, and the volume was needed.  The solution is elegant.  

The instructor(s) have been very patient with my daughter.  

[shawthorne44]

Some more thoughts.   We will sign DD up for more AOPS online math classes.   It has been pretty intense, particularly after she reached the point where she'd hadn't done the alcumus or even read the book.  If I had a redo, I'd have her do all the geometry alcumus, and one challenge problem from the book for each week's material before starting the class.  She'll do AOPS until she has done all the basic classes, then switch to college classes.  I know the college classes will be easier, so there will be no going back to AOPS after college classes. 

[daijobu]

Thanks for this update!  We did a bit of pre AoPS class prepping as well for their python classes.  I basically had my daughter learn most of the python at home independently, then she turned around the took the AoPS python classes.  

You are right, once you start with AoPS it's hard to go back.  We used it all the way until the derivatives chapter of calculus then switched to AP calculus at PAH to save time and ensure she earned a 5.  My "always AoPS" daughter complained a fair bit about the new class and teacher, but it did get the job done.  

[Malam]

14 hours ago, daijobu said:

My "always AoPS" daughter complained a fair bit about the new class and teacher

What were her complaints? Also, how did PAH save time compared to AoPS?

Edited March 15 by Malam

[daijobu]

When you are accustomed to the rigor and proofs and general depth of AoPS it's hard to come back from that.  Still, while many students take AoPS calculus, do some prep in the month before the exam, and earn a 5, we just didn't want to deal with the onerous homework and real analysis required to complete the course.  Calculus isn't really all that hard once you wrap your mind about what it means to be infinitely large or small.  Earning a 5 in AP calc is kind of a binary thing, and we didn't want to work extra hard to achieve that.  She had a busy junior year anyway.    

She wanted a get-er-done, earn-a-5 AP calculus class and PAH fit the bill perfectly for that.  But that doesn't stop her from complaining!  

[daijobu]

I should add that my daughter is long out of college now, so I don't even know if PAH has the same teacher, or if anything has changed.  I have however heard great things about Blue Tent.