Need help brainstorming (temporary?) solution for history for my ds

[cintinative]

Background:

DS16 has ADD-inattentive, anxiety, gifted, with processing disorder. Psych indicated stealth dyslexia. SLP doesn't necessarily agree. 

Last spring evaluated by SLP to tease out processing issue. From her report: "(Name) scores lowest on questions that involve transferring (applying) insights from one situation to another and in Problem Solving which involves flexibility in identifying viable solutions to a given situation and weighing those ideas
to formulate a pragmatically available solution. (Name)’s language processing and formulation skills appear to be taxed when a more complex or nuanced scenario is presented.  . . . Weaknesses are coalesced around spoken and written formulation and narration tasks. These tasks may involve explanation of literary content, social-cognitive analysis, complex topics involving selection and organization of content for verbal and written expression. These weaknesses were revealed on the results of the TILLS (Story Retell scaled score 6, 9th percentile and Delayed Story Retell scaled score 5, 5th percentile) which was administered in December of 2021 and also on these present-day assessments. (Name) can benefit from utilization of strategies and learning of techniques to strengthen his language processing and verbal formulation skills in both spoken and written modalities."

He struggles with distilling complex ideas, discerning important ideas to take notes, and with composition.

He is currently receiving SLP therapy weekly for these issues.

History background: He was using History of Western Society (vol 2)--college level but not the AP version, going very slowly and taking notes. At the recommendation of a dyslexia specialist we switched to something with an easier reading level this year.  He is currently using World History: Our Human Story by K12. Unlike the prior history, this one has no comprehension questions or quizzes. So we are only taking notes.

Current situation:  His ADD med stopped working effectively. He was on methylphenidate ER. We switched to Concerta (still methylphenidate)--not better, maybe worse.  Now we are trying Strattera and his attention span hasn't been this bad since age 12.  So we (just yesterday) added small 5 mg doses of the short acting methylphenidate until we get the Gene Sight testing back.  In short, it might be weeks before we have a drug in his system that works for him.  Pretty much all school is a nightmare at the moment.

Current problem: Because of the processing issues (see above) and the current attention span issues, history is in the toilet.  Normally he has to take notes. This is not easy for him even when he has an attention span (again, see above), but right now it is darn near impossible.  He is also a slow writer (physical act of writing, and thoughts toward writing).

Solutions??

Today I sat with him, read it aloud and wrote down notes.  I was trying to help demonstrate to him what ideas to write down and shortcuts/abbreviations/drawings he can use.  This is probably not a good long term solution.  He really didn't want to do this with me. and I don't think he was really attending to me. 

I suggested talk to text--he refuses. He has also refused to type notes.

Other possible solutions:

1) I take notes from the text that he copies after he reads it himself.

2) I create a sort of guided notetaking document with blanks he fills in and questions he answers based on the text. My main concern with this is that sometimes it can turn reading into a word search and you don't attend like you should to the text

 

Do you all have any other ideas?  

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by cintinative

[Rosie_0801]

Is the point of his history study to be an avenue for learning note taking skills? Does he do that elsewhere in the curriculum?

[cintinative]

51 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Is the point of his history study to be an avenue for learning note taking skills? Does he do that elsewhere in the curriculum?

No, it's not the point.  😃 I just don't have an output for him other than that.  When we do primary sources (Declaration of Independence, etc.) we have questions that I use and we write those down. But I don't assign papers and since there are no tests, it kind of feels like there should be something?  I might be satisfied with just discussing but that doesn't really happen with him either, owing to the processing issues.  

He really doesn't take notes in other subjects either--it isn't necessary for his other subjects per se except his lit class, but that is a whole other story. It's a live class and she is a wonderful (but very ADD) teacher, and he struggles to take notes there. 

[Rosie_0801]

Output for the sake of it sounds tiring for both of you. 

So, what is the point of history study?

If it's to avoid being a total ignoramus who has never heard of anything, all he needs to do is consume content.

If it is for the development of his critical thinking skills, taking notes alone won't help.

 

Do you have a legal obligation to cover anything in particular?

[cintinative]

5 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

 

Do you have a legal obligation to cover anything in particular?

Just American History at this point, which is included in this world history we are doing, and the texts on the Civil War, WWI, WWII and the Vietnam War that I am adding in. I didn't mention those, I just realized. I do have guided notetaking for those that I made because they are not traditional texts and it's quite hard to know what to write down.  So maybe those notes will have to be enough?

[Rosie_0801]

I'm not understanding what either of you are getting out of the note taking. Is an inspector going to come around to make sure there has been adequate performative paperwork? From the way you've spoken, it doesn't sound that way.

It also doesn't sound like the notes really get used for anything, so I suggest you find a way to use them.

*Have him jot down bullet points, a word or two to jog his memory, send him off to think those into full sentences and paragraphs, then come back and speak about them. 

*You can go philosophical about it: We have just read this thing. Why did they care about it? Why should we care about it? What should we do with this knowledge? Can we use it for anything?

*Have him take a particular theme and kind of mind map it. If he's not a highly verbal person, this could be a good way to develop or show an understanding of relationships between ideas and sources. An example would be to pick the main point of whatever you've read, write that in the middle of the paper, then surround that with bubbles containing other sources he's picked up that same idea from, drawing a two way arrow between since they reinforce one another. He can use that same model later when planning paragraphs in an essay, a basic way of learning to weave ideas from different sources. He can do the same with a bibliography, then read those sources to try and find the ideas from the earlier sources in the later.

*Give him the introduction and conclusion to a (short, readable) academic paper and predict what ought to be in the body of the essay.

 

He might get more out of it with a bit of historiography under his belt.

 

[cintinative]

Thank you @Rosie_0801 Those are great ideas.  

[kbutton]

My older one has similar struggles, and he had to go all the way back to narration with guidance from the story braid format from MindWing Concepts. He could answer fill in the blank or multiple choice questions to some extent, and he could answer some Socratic questions out loud if they were leading questions to some extent.

If he was excited enough to relate individual interesting facts to me spontaneously or to follow up with some documentaries or a podcast, it was a win.

It got better with language work, and then we could do some pretty ordinary level history texts.

He still likes history. Win.

I had to give up on everything being IQ appropriate. We did challenging things when it worked, and that was mostly if there was a tutor involved.

3 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

*Have him jot down bullet points, a word or two to jog his memory, send him off to think those into full sentences and paragraphs, then come back and speak about them. 

*You can go philosophical about it: We have just read this thing. Why did they care about it? Why should we care about it? What should we do with this knowledge? Can we use it for anything?

*Give him the introduction and conclusion to a (short, readable) academic paper and predict what ought to be in the body of the essay.

Of Rosie’s ideas, these are ones mine might’ve been able to do.

The keyword outline would have needed (at that time) to be point for point. He would not be able to summarize.

The middle idea—I think he could’ve done that with appropriate scaffolding.

The last he could’ve probably done if he could sort individual statements that were printed out and cut apart. Even then, he could start caring about all of it and lose the main idea.

I would use several of these strategies for one passage so they reinforce each other.

Kids avoid what they find too difficult. His behavior suggests that it’s still too hard, though I know the lack of effective meds makes it worse.

ADHD really faded to the background when he got the language tools he needed.

[kbutton]

I would preload history with podcasts and documentaries if he likes those. Then maybe read about it.

[cintinative]

9 hours ago, kbutton said:

I would preload history with podcasts and documentaries if he likes those. Then maybe read about it.

Both of mine hate documentaries. Go figure. Hopefully they will grow out of that.  😃

[cintinative]

Today he read the section and then we discussed it, and it went much, much better. Thank you all.

[kbutton]

6 hours ago, cintinative said:

Both of mine hate documentaries. Go figure. Hopefully they will grow out of that.  😃

I am so sorry for that! Documentaries are magic, lol! 

[prairiewindmomma]

You have 2+ issues:

1. What do you need to feel good about issuing credit for graduation?

2. What does he need to know for future life? 
 

In an area where you have documented weakness that you are also addressing with professionals, I feel 100% ok adjusting assignments. Note taking is adding the complication of motor work to the comprehension work. Take away the motor work. I would read and discuss. Ask questions, and build towards narration. The foundation for a lot of learning is reading and understanding. Work on the comprehension. Teach him all of those comprehension adding skills—network webs, analyzing text structure, etc. Once he has the understanding, then he can work on the expression.

Public high school history for my gifted high schooler has looked like 2-3 projects a semester…usually 2 with slides and one with a short essay. Don’t overwork the output. 

[Zoo Keeper]

You're using the K12 World History book, right?  Use those Key Questions at the beginning of each chapter as discussion points that could eventually turn into mini essays.  That was the major written output for my LD child when he did that book in high school. LOTS of guided discussion with me, then a few paragraphs to answer those Key Questions.  Yes, he needed insane amounts of re-reading and scaffolding to make this happen.  Taking notes on the text was pointless for him-- it all just ran together and he couldn't find a main point very well.  Just too much to wade through.  Those Key Questions helped him focus his reading to trace the development of *one thing* at a time.  Much better for him. 

If/when I felt tests were needed, we read the texts from PASS world history, and then used the tests included with that.  World History Part One & Part Two

[cintinative]

44 minutes ago, Zoo Keeper said:

You're using the K12 World History book, right?  Use those Key Questions at the beginning of each chapter as discussion points that could eventually turn into mini essays.  That was the major written output for my LD child when he did that book in high school. LOTS of guided discussion with me, then a few paragraphs to answer those Key Questions.  Yes, he needed insane amounts of re-reading and scaffolding to make this happen.  Taking notes on the text was pointless for him-- it all just ran together and he couldn't find a main point very well.  Just too much to wade through.  Those Key Questions helped him focus his reading to trace the development of *one thing* at a time.  Much better for him. 

If/when I felt tests were needed, we read the texts from PASS world history, and then used the tests included with that.  World History Part One & Part Two

yes, we used those questions at the beginning of the section to guide discussion. Originally I had him trying to answer the questions via Cornell notes and that was too hard.  There might be questions at the beginning of the chapters too—I’m not sure.  
 

Writing papers is not happening unless we drop Lantern. Writing papers is his worst area. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

Writing papers is his worst area. 

That was explained by the TILLS with the narrative language testing it included. The video I'm linking is long but it will show you the connection between narrative and expository writing. The outlining and notetaking issues go back to the narrative language issues.

 

[PeterPan]

The philosophical question to ask yourself at this stage is what you will be crying about 5 years from now. You have a long list of things the SLP found and some of those weaknesses will still be biting you in the butt 5 years from now if not attended to. That's what you prioritize.

Wanting output is efficiency. Given his language scores, I would consider something really basic like a response journal or once a week rabbit trailing where he takes one of the topics he read about and researches it further to write about it. It would directly work on some of those language goals without being too stressful.

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by PeterPan

[cintinative]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

The philosophical question to ask yourself at this stage is what you will be crying about 5 years from now. You have a long list of things the SLP found and some of those weaknesses will still be biting you in the butt 5 years from now if not attended to. That's what you prioritize.

I know. That's why we are meeting with the SLP. 

This is really another thread, but would you believe the school district did the TILLS test, they mis-scored it, declared he was average, and that no interventions were needed?  He scores high on the ACT. I'm still angry about it. We even had an advocate. 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, cintinative said:

I know. That's why we are meeting with the SLP. 

This is really another thread, but would you believe the school district did the TILLS test, they mis-scored it, declared he was average, and that no interventions were needed?  He scores high on the ACT. I'm still angry about it. We even had an advocate. 

The TILLS is a well respected test that is used to assess a bunch of factors relating to literacy. It caught your dc's significant narrative language issues. Who gave the scores you posted? 

Interpreting test scores is tricky. The school is NOT asking the same thing you are. You're asking how to help your dc optimally and they are asking what the BARE MINIMUM is they have to do to help your dc access their education. If his ACT scores are high, you're looking at a 504. To their mind, the dc has accessed his education and they will find 20 ways to blow you off. You would have to go in with test scores showing significant discrepancy, and they will say that having it be in *one* are of the test is not significant, that it has to be *multiple* sections of a language test, SIGNIFICANT. If it's one section of the TILLS and his test scores are fine, his social is fine, etc. etc., where is the ps' obligation? 

Now you can flip that and you can go in with the TNL (an entire test on narrative language that has subsections, etc.) and suddenly it's like whoa, he has 1.5 sd of discrepancy in multiple sections on a language test, now we have significance. You could do some other tests like the CELF metalinguistics. You could consider whether your psych evals revealed everything going on and see if a different diagnosis is warranted. You have more paths. 

Advocates are a mixed bag, so I'm sorry they weren't able to get you where you needed to be. It took us a while (3 years, sigh) to sort through my ds' IEP challenges and get to our final place. It took a LOT of private testing and frankly your window for that is running out. 

The narrative language issues are treatable and respond well to good intervention. Ironically, there is some data showing these interventions are not *dose dependent*. So it might feel like you need to hammer it every week for 50 weeks, but there are studies suggesting otherwise, that getting in their heads even a bit with these good tools can open things up. 

So I would not consider it hopeless. I also would, being frank here, strongly think through what language issues of this nature mean long term. This person is going to continue to have fatigue with the work, difficulty, etc. etc. that their high scores belie. Sometimes college is NOT WORTH IT. Sometimes professionals will give you advice with a very positive spin, not considering the rest of the picture and these quiet, hard to quantify challenges. I would suggest caution on pushing a dc with language issues into a setting that is going to require more and more language output, their high ACT score notwithstanding. Maybe about what it really looks like long term and what is comfortable for them. We can do a good job for our kids and NOT have it result in college or this or that. They might not even assess themselves correctly to realize the full extent of their challenges. 

[cintinative]

@PeterPan I emailed our SLP about this, but how do I assess from our end how likely the school district is to agree to an IEP? Our options at this point are not to pursue the IEP and then I get a job to help pay for the $600/mo SLP bills, or pursue the IEP in hopes we can use those Jon Peterson funds.  

I am with you on wondering about college. Overall he does well, and the little snip of the SLP report that I gave does not capture that he does well with overall comprehension, inferences and critical thinking, etc.

He is interested in design. He is gifted in visual-spatial especially, so I think this is a viable thing for him, but we might want to look at two year degrees.  

[cintinative]

22 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

The TILLS is a well respected test that is used to assess a bunch of factors relating to literacy. It caught your dc's significant narrative language issues. Who gave the scores you posted? 

Interpreting test scores is tricky. The school is NOT asking the same thing you are. You're asking how to help your dc optimally and they are asking what the BARE MINIMUM is they have to do to help your dc access their education. If his ACT scores are high, you're looking at a 504. To their mind, the dc has accessed his education and they will find 20 ways to blow you off. You would have to go in with test scores showing significant discrepancy, and they will say that having it be in *one* are of the test is not significant, that it has to be *multiple* sections of a language test, SIGNIFICANT. If it's one section of the TILLS and his test scores are fine, his social is fine, etc. etc., where is the ps' obligation? 

 

The SLP at the district only ran the TILLS. She told me he was average and fine.  They did not own any of the other tests. 

The SLP we just hired said it was mis-scored.  She ran a bunch of other tests as well.

This is the key question I need to figure out at the moment--are we even eligible for an IEP, even with the new SLP report?

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, cintinative said:

@PeterPan

He is interested in design. He is gifted in visual-spatial especially, so I think this is a viable thing for him, but we might want to look at two year degrees.  

Or paid tutoring for writing and possibly taking composition with an extremely light load or as a one off. 

3 hours ago, cintinative said:

The SLP at the district only ran the TILLS. She told me he was average and fine.  They did not own any of the other tests. 

The SLP we just hired said it was mis-scored.  She ran a bunch of other tests as well.

This is the key question I need to figure out at the moment--are we even eligible for an IEP, even with the new SLP report?

SLD language is a valid category. If you have side issues like ADHD, anxiety, etc., you can tie those in to look at the bigger picture.

My teen is down to only language goals on his IEP with issues that are even sketchier than your DS’s. But he has a longer track record with an IEP. On paper, he looks much like your son, but his composition is unaffected. His problem-solving shows up socially (this was unexpected).

Can you get feedback on all of his specific issues with writing from any online classes? Did they allow you to give input as a teacher? Not being able to write should be a slam dunk for an IEP. Writing is absolutely essential to access his education.

Did they let you show writing samples, particularly when documenting failed assignments? You should be able to describe what happens in those contexts.

 If this affects (or could affect) his safety at all, that matters too—my older son that graduated could be interviewed about an event (and still fall short), but he couldn’t retell it or put words to the crux of an event. He would literally be in trouble for something and not be able to explain why. He was open to exploitation by savvy kids and adults and punished in ways that didn’t suit the situation because he could not explain things—he would sometimes find the words YEARS later, mostly after SLP work. That’s a safety issue for LIFE and work. They care about workplace readiness.

Those are angles to explore.

[PeterPan]

11 hours ago, cintinative said:

are we even eligible for an IEP,

I'm going to pm you.

[PeterPan]

11 hours ago, cintinative said:

only ran the TILLS.

No SLDT, no metalinguistics... Interesting. 

[kbutton]

22 hours ago, cintinative said:

The SLP we just hired said it was mis-scored.  She ran a bunch of other tests as well.

If she is willing to go on record saying that, that might help the case also. There may be a formal process for doing so.

[cintinative]

12 hours ago, PeterPan said:

No SLDT, no metalinguistics... Interesting. 

Nope, but she only ran TILLS because I asked. Otherwise I don't think the SLP would have run anything. 

[SFisher]

On 9/12/2023 at 5:23 PM, cintinative said:

Background:

DS16 has ADD-inattentive, anxiety, gifted, with processing disorder. Psych indicated stealth dyslexia. SLP doesn't necessarily agree. 

Last spring evaluated by SLP to tease out processing issue. From her report: "(Name) scores lowest on questions that involve transferring (applying) insights from one situation to another and in Problem Solving which involves flexibility in identifying viable solutions to a given situation and weighing those ideas
to formulate a pragmatically available solution. (Name)’s language processing and formulation skills appear to be taxed when a more complex or nuanced scenario is presented.  . . . Weaknesses are coalesced around spoken and written formulation and narration tasks. These tasks may involve explanation of literary content, social-cognitive analysis, complex topics involving selection and organization of content for verbal and written expression. These weaknesses were revealed on the results of the TILLS (Story Retell scaled score 6, 9th percentile and Delayed Story Retell scaled score 5, 5th percentile) which was administered in December of 2021 and also on these present-day assessments. (Name) can benefit from utilization of strategies and learning of techniques to strengthen his language processing and verbal formulation skills in both spoken and written modalities."

He struggles with distilling complex ideas, discerning important ideas to take notes, and with composition.

He is currently receiving SLP therapy weekly for these issues.

History background: He was using History of Western Society (vol 2)--college level but not the AP version, going very slowly and taking notes. At the recommendation of a dyslexia specialist we switched to something with an easier reading level this year.  He is currently using World History: Our Human Story by K12. Unlike the prior history, this one has no comprehension questions or quizzes. So we are only taking notes.

Current situation:  His ADD med stopped working effectively. He was on methylphenidate ER. We switched to Concerta (still methylphenidate)--not better, maybe worse.  Now we are trying Strattera and his attention span hasn't been this bad since age 12.  So we (just yesterday) added small 5 mg doses of the short acting methylphenidate until we get the Gene Sight testing back.  In short, it might be weeks before we have a drug in his system that works for him.  Pretty much all school is a nightmare at the moment.

Current problem: Because of the processing issues (see above) and the current attention span issues, history is in the toilet.  Normally he has to take notes. This is not easy for him even when he has an attention span (again, see above), but right now it is darn near impossible.  He is also a slow writer (physical act of writing, and thoughts toward writing).

Solutions??

Today I sat with him, read it aloud and wrote down notes.  I was trying to help demonstrate to him what ideas to write down and shortcuts/abbreviations/drawings he can use.  This is probably not a good long term solution.  He really didn't want to do this with me. and I don't think he was really attending to me. 

I suggested talk to text--he refuses. He has also refused to type notes.

Other possible solutions:

1) I take notes from the text that he copies after he reads it himself.

2) I create a sort of guided notetaking document with blanks he fills in and questions he answers based on the text. My main concern with this is that sometimes it can turn reading into a word search and you don't attend like you should to the text

 

Do you all have any other ideas?  

 

I have been reading a ton about similar issues, see if any of these thoughts are helpful: 

* for note taking, provide an outline and have him fill it it. Since you’re using a history book, the outline can probably be the titles & headlines in the reading. Gives him some visual structure to work within.

* let him understand the big picture before the details. So, if it’s a war, what triggered the start, what was it like (technology, hardship, location), how did it conclude. Then, go back and add in lots more detail with the full text. Is there a summary you can read of a chapter before he reads the chapter? Maybe a timeline? YouTube videos, children’s books, could all provide high level summary info before the detail.

* for output, what are his strongest output channels? Can he show knowledge via one of these channels? create a visual timeline. Create a 3D model. Verbal discussion. If he needs things to be a little silly, can he pretend to be someone from history and you interview talk to him about the history events.

* Add more visual data. So, if you were learning about a particular war, seeing the vehicles used, the weapons used, the way the soldiers dress. Using a globe to know where it happened. Going to a museum. YouTube.

 

 

[SFisher]

After thinking about this post, I remembered something that might be helpful to you. And I’m pretty sure I remember your son has strong visual spatial skills.

When I was in college, I took art history. I went to a school for design. Nearly every student in this class would’ve been studying architecture, graphic design, fashion design, industrial design, etc, so a very visual spatial bunch. The class had a textbook that was huge and every class session was a lecture. The lecture hall was huge, and the teacher was not very approachable, so you really had to work independently without being able to ask him any questions. We would have tests based on both the textbook and the lectures. Taking written notes in an art history class is very hard. Because you’re learning so much terminology and names/places are coming from different languages and you’re also simultaneously learning about religion. If I would’ve just taken notes on the lecture, I don’t know that I would’ve been able to decipher what I wrote because I would have to guess at spelling as I went. What I remember doing and what I remember my friends doing was, we would take the whole book to the lecture we would bring Post-it’s and a pencil and as the teacher spoke about different things we would underline or highlight, or jot a note on a post it and stick it near the images within the text. Then I would study with my friends who had all done the same thing. If I missed any notes, I could get them from my friends. And then we would study together with our books full of post it’s.
because it’s history and a sequence of events, it’s helpful to study/review/see the exact order in the book. There is a wild amount of terminology and names to learn, and I remember that we would make a funny rhymes or stories to help attach the names to why the artist was important. That might seem like a short term solution, but I still remember some of those jokes about the artists.

I hadn’t thought about this until just now, but this is a visual spatial workaround for taking notes and remembering things.