Question about diversity/inclusion language

[Melissa Louise]

18 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I don’t view it as a lie.  It’s “above my pay grade” and “not my problem”.  The philosophical debate around what makes gender etc. is above my head and not my problem. My responsibility is to be kind and polite.  Because it costs me nothing.   It’s not really something I feel compelled in doing, other than the self compulsion to be kind. I don’t really ascribe to “being cruel to be kind” so telling them they are wrong or whatever isn’t on me.  They have therapists, parents, doctors, all of that is covered.  I will be kind to the human in front of me, because that is my choice.     

Do you understand it's not about kindness? 

If it cost me nothing, I'd be doing it. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

And, yet, it’s diminishing all the same. Names don’t put your life at risk. Racism does.

Agree.  But isn’t that a separate issue than pronouns? 

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

If it was an inconvenience or an irritation, I wouldn't be speaking about it. Plenty of those to suck up and deal with in the workplace

It also doesn't 'hurt my feelings'. 

More, those who feel they have a right to coerce my speech, regardless of my actions (which would be collegial at best, professional at worst) are a bright red flag to me. 

If it wasn't a psychological violation, why would I have a problem with it? For fun? I don't think so.

I was talking to Maize. I wouldn't have the same conversation with you. Different people, different back stories.

[Sneezyone]

10 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Agree.  But isn’t that a separate issue than pronouns? 

Respect is respect. You don’t know what race the other person is running. But you can guess, and probably come real close. No. It’s not separate. Intersectionality means considering all of the ways in which marginalized people intersect in all of these ways. Ethnic minorities intersect with gender minorities and sexual minorities and income minorities, and persons with disabilities, and every other aspect of life. Intersectionality is about understanding all of those various aspects of who we are as people. And how they create intersecting, and overlapping ids, and ever more damaging odds. Respect costs nothing. Ignorance is far more damaging.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

8 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I was talking to Maize. I wouldn't have the same conversation with you. Different people, different back stories.

As if there's allowance for back stories.

Coercion regardless. 

[Heartstrings]

7 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Do you understand it's not about kindness? 

If it cost me nothing, I'd be doing it. 

I understand that you feel it’s not about kindness.  For reasons that I don’t share this bothers you greatly and causes you distress.   I don’t fully understand or agree, but I can have empathy for that.   

[SHP]

10 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Do you understand it's not about kindness? 

If it cost me nothing, I'd be doing it. 

It costs you nothing to respect another person and use the pronouns they tell align with their internal truth, even if it differs from their external appearance. 

 

[LMD]

Just now, SHP said:

It costs you nothing to respect another person and use the pronouns they tell align with their internal truth, even if it differs from their external appearance. 

 

Melissa is telling you it does cost something. I am telling you it does cost something. That you don't value the cost is different than there not being one. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

I understand that you feel it’s not about kindness.  For reasons that I don’t share this bothers you greatly and causes you distress.   I don’t fully understand or agree, but I can have empathy for that.   

Thank you. 

In the last two years, I have taken a NB person who was homeless into my home. I have welcomed a transwoman into my family.

I am nothing but kind to the actual trans people I have in my life.

All I ask in return is that I am allowed to speak in a way that doesn't violate my conscience or my understanding of reality. 

I think that's fair. 

I've dealt with enough violations in my life; I don't need more. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, SHP said:

It costs you nothing to respect another person and use the pronouns they tell align with their internal truth, even if it differs from their external appearance. 

 

I have zero respect for the type of person who issues condescending lectures to a DV survivor on what violence is, so I'll limit myself to saying you are wrong. 

[Heartstrings]

A lot of people have religions I don’t believe.   I can’t *prove* it’s incorrect so I just go with it.  Who knows, maybe they are right and I’m wrong and I won’t know until I’m dead.  
 

People say they were abducted by aliens or have haunted houses.   I can’t prove they are wrong.  It’s unknowable.  
 

So if someone tells me they feel a mismatch in their gender and their sex, ok.  I can’t possibly prove that wrong, so I’m going to just go with it.  Maybe it’s factually wrong, maybe it’s right.   The essence of gender is for philosophy, not for me to decide.  It’s unknowable.  
 

In the realm of things unknown and unknowable I’m just going to lead with kindness.  For me, that’s humility.  

[SHP]

21 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

No one commented on my post from earlier about my name/nicknames.  I think it is a semi fair comparison.  I don’t flinch when I am called by my nick name even though I decided 46 years ago to go by my first name. I certainly don’t berate, or chastise or threaten them with HR.  
 

I want to be called a female and someone calls me male……so what.  
 

Also, because I see this from several sides…if I am asked to use gender neutral pronouns..ok, so what.  If I can remember.  And if I can’t ok, so give grace especially if I have known you since birth. 

I didn't see that post. Lots of posts flying at rapid speed. 

I am happy that being misgendered wouldn't bother you and I hope that if that moves from hypothetical to an ongoing reality that it would continue to be a non issue. 

Many people do exercise grace when sharing pronouns for the first time, especially with long-term friends and family. 

Name tags with pronouns for in-person events with new people are incredibly helpful reminders. Especially for those of us who already cannot remember names for 30 seconds. My kids would argue that they need name tags since I tend to name everyone else and all pets before finally landing in the correct one. 

[Sneezyone]

13 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Thank you. 

In the last two years, I have taken a NB person who was homeless into my home. I have welcomed a transwoman into my family.

I am nothing but kind to the actual trans people I have in my life.

All I ask in return is that I am allowed to speak in a way that doesn't violate my conscience or my understanding of reality. 

I think that's fair. 

I've dealt with enough violations in my life; I don't need more. 

 

You dislike the person in your home so much that you feel using preferred pronouns caused you pain (more than the kid with no family and no place to go) but you want credit for not misgendering the houseless child? Are we to understand that you were the real victim? Had no agency or capacity to say no to the deviant person seeking shelter in your home? Or just that you were gracious enough to allow this poor, confused soul to seek shelter with you? Does this person know how you really feel about them? Are they ok with that? Did they have alternatives?

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone

[LMD]

Lol, yeah, she's such a villian, made worse by the fabulous acting while *checks notes* actively showing them love. 🙄

Do you believe that people hate their religious neighbour if they bring them a casserole but politely decline to recite a prayer?

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, LMD said:

Lol, yeah, she's such a villian, made worse by the fabulous acting while *checks notes* actively showing them love. 🙄

Do you believe that people hate their religious neighbour if they bring them a casserole but politely decline to recite a prayer?

I think people do a lot of things for show/credit that violate deeply held beliefs. If I were homeless and desperate, I might stay with a racist too. IJS. Needs must.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone

[SHP]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I have zero respect for the type of person who issues condescending lectures to a DV survivor on what violence is, so I'll limit myself to saying you are wrong. 

OMG 

I am a DV survivor.

And survivor of sexual assault.

And physical assault.

And being stalked.

And vehicular assault.

You do not have the market on being a vivictim. 

You are playing the victim to try and defend your own abusive behavior towards a marginalized group. 

Again, for those in the back, physical violence is not the only type of violence. 

[Melissa Louise]

7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

You dislike the person in your home so much that you feel using preferred pronouns caused you pain (more than the kid with no family and no place to go) but you want credit for not misgendering the houseless child? Are we to understand that you were the real victim? Had no agency or capacity to say no to the deviant person seeking shelter in your home? Or just that you were gracious enough to allow this poor, confused soul to seek shelter with you? Does this person know how you really feel about them? Are they ok with that? Did they have alternatives?

You are a really nasty piece of work. 

I never use the term deviant, because I don't believe being gender non-conforming is deviant. 

I'm ignoring the rest of this rant. 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, SHP said:

OMG 

I am a DV survivor.

And survivor of sexual assault.

And physical assault.

And being stalked.

And vehicular assault.

You do not have the market on being a vivictim. 

You are playing the victim to try and defend your own abusive behavior towards a marginalized group. 

Again, for those in the back, physical violence is not the only type of violence. 

And this one. 

I've actually never come across such vicious, verbally nasty people in my entire life (who weren't my abusers).

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

You are a really nasty piece of work. 

I never use the term deviant, because I don't believe being gender non-conforming is deviant. 

I'm ignoring the rest of this rant. 

 

 

Srsly, you’ve done everything BUT use the term deviant. I appreciate that the rest of my post is uncomfortable tho. Do with it what you will.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone

[LMD]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Srsly, you’ve done everything BUT use the term deviant.

I guess we're done with goodwill then? And we were doing so well for a while there...

[Melissa Louise]

I've also never come across people who lie about others so freely.

No, I don't, and have never thought, being gender non-conforming is deviant. 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[Melissa Louise]

4 minutes ago, LMD said:

I guess we're done with goodwill then? And we were doing so well for a while there...

A few pages back sneezy said she was messing us around for kicks, so I don't think she was in it for good will at any point.

Block and move on. I periodically unblock people I have on ignore, but this is the thread I realise some people here are either trolling or disturbed, and need to live on that list permanently. 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, LMD said:

I guess we're done with goodwill then? And we were doing so well for a while there...

Naw, goodwill only goes so far. SHP was 10000% correct and most readers here see it. I’m a DV victim!! Ok. No one’s ever hit me over the freaking head, I just spent 35+ years under the thumb of a narcissist. That’s no excuse for me to talk shit about the people I ostensibly care about behind their backs. It’s a legit question whether this person truly knows  and accepts Melissa’s true feelings or whether they’d prefer a state shelter to someone who thinks they’re a delusional mooch.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

A few pages back sneezy said she was messing us around for kicks, so I don't think she was in it for good will at any point.

Block and move on. I periodically unblock people I have on ignore, but this is the thread I realise some people here are either trolling or disturbed, and need to live on that list permanently. 

 

My kicks are b/c my sex partner, my preferred work diversion, is unavailable for reasons beyond my control, not b/c I don’t care about the issues or enjoy stirring the pot.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Rosie_0801]

[moderator hat on] None of us here are scum, and if that's a difficult concept to hold onto right now, it's time to step out of the thread.

[Melissa Louise]

No human is scum, whether they are on my ignore list or not.

It's just interesting that the same people who think pronouns are a life and death matter are quite happy to be relentless in their personally-directed bullying.

[SHP]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Sure. 

Seriously?! Are you stating that the lived experiences of violence I just shared is invalid? The nicest way I can describe that is "unkind".

Look at my post history for a teeny glimpse of the hell I have endured. 

 

I will use your logic here:

My belief is that you have not been a victim of DV because I am a victim and I know what real DV is. This is my belief and you must respect my belief because my belief is more important that yours. Any posts by you claiming victimhood are now in violation of MY beliefs. Every time you post about your fake DV my beliefs compell me to quote you and tell you that you did not experience DV and you claiming you did violates my beliefs. 

 

 

[Rosie_0801]

@SHP, that line of conversation has gone far enough. 

[SHP]

7 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

[moderator hat on] None of us here are scum, and if that's a difficult concept to hold onto right now, it's time to step out of the thread.

I have been told to f off by a poster and had that poster dismiss my lived experiences of violence. I managed not to call names but I do wonder how much abuse I am expected to endure from them. 

[Rosie_0801]

4 minutes ago, SHP said:

I have been told to f off by a poster and had that poster dismiss my lived experiences of violence. I managed not to call names but I do wonder how much abuse I am expected to endure from them. 

You don't have to endure any at all. You have the option to put them on ignore and to stay out of the thread. You have an obligation, according to board rules, to stay out of threads you will find triggering. (Same goes for everyone else, obviously.)

Reported posts were dealt with.

 

This thread is done.