Why men are hard to help

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

I'm saying it's not just small LACs, though (all your examples were SLACs). Vassar's the famous example, but top 20 universities favor men in admission, too. It's pretty much just STEM/engineering schools that don't, and there aren't nearly as many of them. So boys have the advantage in admission at MOST selective colleges. I guess I'm saying it's not some sign of a deep bias against boys, it's a sign that colleges like gender balance.  

I picked STEM schools because I think it mimics what is happening in STEM departments at other schools. You can’t get statistics by department. I said that above. I have no way of knowing how many boys applied to UCB engineering (example) versus girls and how many were admitted. But I could use a stem school as a potential proxy of that. That is the reasoning why I chose those schools. While schools say they don’t admit by major, they most certainly take into account intended majors and you can read through that in applications. After all, they can’t have 100% of incoming class majoring in math and German, French, history, sociology courses empty. They have to balance it. If I didn’t want to look at STEM, I wouldn’t have chosen those. 
But again, this isn’t directly related to the main topic here. Just an interesting digression.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Roadrunner

[rzberrymom]

15 hours ago, kokotg said:

So boys have the advantage in admission at MOST selective colleges.

If affirmative action falls in June, it will be interesting to see what happens to gender balance at the elite private schools. Since affirmative action is banned at the UC schools, gender balance is waaaaay off at the most selective campuses (58% female, 41% male).

[Clarita]

2 hours ago, rzberrymom said:

Since affirmative action is banned at the UC schools, gender balance is waaaaay off at the most selective campuses (58% female, 41% male).

Interesting, was affirmative action helping males for a while?

[Roadrunner]

so at the very top, it doesn't help to be a man, unless you like Yale. At Stanford it helps to be a woman. Go figure. I am guessing it's because at the very top there are enough of overqualified males and females, so gender imbalance in applications isn't that big. I still maintain within departments there is probably an advantages for boys in liberal arts and girls in stem. 

here is a small sample

		Harvard	Yale	Princeton	Stanford
men		26,981	21,108	18,737	28,379
women		30,805	28,952	18,864	27,999
total		57,786	50,060	37,601	56,378
admitted men		1,100	1,118	781	943
admitted women		1,218	1,171	866	1,127
total		2,318	2,289	1,647	2,070
men %		4.1%	5.3%	4.2%	3.3%
women %		4.0%	4.0%	4.6%	4.0%

Edited May 24, 2023 by Roadrunner

[rzberrymom]

50 minutes ago, Clarita said:

Interesting, was affirmative action helping males for a while?

He points out in his book that the male/female ratio is very even at most private schools, where the right to admit by gender is protected by a clause in Title IX (designed to protect women’s colleges). But far more women are admitted where affirmative action has been banned. 🤷‍♀️

[kokotg]

bunny trails...if my next kid applies to an Ivy, it will likely be Brown, so I'm pleased to see that he'll have a whole 6.7% chance of being admitted there, compared to 4% if he were a girl. 

[Not_a_Number]

Actually, I’m realizing I’m not sure how this works in the US. I ought to remember since I did this with my sister, but I forgot. Do people apply to specific programs or not?

Edited May 25, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[kokotg]

12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Actually, I’m realizing I’m not sure how this works in the US. I ought to remember since I did this with my sister, but I forgot. Do people apply to specific programs or not?

It depends on the school. At LACs you usually don’t have to declare a major until end of sophomore year. 

[Roadrunner]

9 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Actually, I’m realizing I’m not sure how this works in the US. I ought to remember since I did this with my sister, but I forgot. Do people apply to specific programs or not?

they ask for your intended major. So while they don’t accept you into a major at those fancy schools, admissions still pays attention to what you opted into. They have to fill the classrooms. You need some art, some musicians, some languages… I mean it’s clear who the math/computers/physics kids are. Who is writing about politics and who wants to be an engineer. Their departments within universities are very lopsided. I am not letting my younger son apply for STEM. He will have a tremendous advantage as a history or philosophy major. 
 

Publics (like CA schools) ask to apply into majors for engineering, computer science and some select majors. I am not sure how other publics do. 

[Roadrunner]

So overall, the number of men going to college is up, right? Larger proportion of men are going to college than before even if they can’t keep up with women, right? I guess the question to ask is do men need to keep up with women? Is it important to have a parity? And the bigger question is what is the increase in male population that made a very good living historically in trades but is now sitting in “basements” so to speak? Is there much of an increase? How much?

I understand why colleges want a balance. We really loved Rose Hulman for example but I couldn’t get over “75% male” statistic. So we decided to send my boy elsewhere. 

[regentrude]

10 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Actually, I’m realizing I’m not sure how this works in the US. I ought to remember since I did this with my sister, but I forgot. Do people apply to specific programs or not?

Depends entirely on the school. They ask for intended major but that doesn't mean students don't change their mind all the time and switch.

Edited May 25, 2023 by regentrude

[SeaConquest]

16 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

they ask for your intended major. So while they don’t accept you into a major at those fancy schools, admissions still pays attention to what you opted into. They have to fill the classrooms. You need some art, some musicians, some languages… I mean it’s clear who the math/computers/physics kids are. Who is writing about politics and who wants to be an engineer. Their departments within universities are very lopsided. I am not letting my younger son apply for STEM. He will have a tremendous advantage as a history or philosophy major. 
 

Publics (like CA schools) ask to apply into majors for engineering, computer science and some select majors. I am not sure how other publics do. 

So, would the plan be to apply as history/philosophy and then double major in something STEM?

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

So, would the plan be to apply as history/philosophy and then double major in something STEM?

For him? Luckily he is an odd bird who loves philosophy, so he will be probably music/philosophy and math (potentially even audition based music schools). But I do think at the top, most brilliant boys want STEM so even if fewer of them are applying on average than women, they are all trying for the same thing. So I think averages could be deceiving in some ways. I am actually pleased my younger isn’t into STEM at all. We might insist on math just as a safety layer of sorts, at least as a minor. 

[Frances]

5 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

So, would the plan be to apply as history/philosophy and then double major in something STEM?

This is not possible at some schools, especially if there are impacted majors like CS or engineering or other school specific majors that are very competitive like film or architecture. It really is school dependent. But as a general rule, LACs don’t have you apply to a particular major or make it difficult or impossible to switch majors.