Question for bakery chef! Re: herbs and spices (amount freshly ground VS. store bought bottled)

[sheryl]

Anyone can reply but I would like to know if there is a bakery chef on board to answer my question.

I'm certain I read (but now can not find) that to use ground "fresh herbs" (say mortar/pestle) that you TRIPLE the ground herbs as opposed to store bought pre-ground in jar herbs.  So, I want fresh oregano and if I would normally use 1 t of store bought then would I TRIPLE to 3 t (1T)?

Same applies for spices - let's say I need 1 t. cinnamon (store bought ground).  Do I TRIPLE to 3 t (1 T) for fresh hand ground or hand zested cinnamon from sticks?

Has anyone heard this?  I know it depends a lot on personal preference but I'd like to know if there is a "rule".

TIA!
 

[Dianthus]

Dried herbs are more condensed so stronger flavor than fresh containing water which is why you need more fresh than dried.

You don't use more of freshly ground nutmeg or cinnamon sticks. They are already dry.

[KungFuPanda]

Do not triple the nutmeg or cloves! This is just for leaves that shrivel a lot when dried. Even then you want to taste because the fries will be more concentrated but fresh can have so much more flavor that it almost evens out. And some herbs, like sage, can overpower a dish if you go nuts with it. 

[Faith-manor]

I am not a chef, but Dianthus is correct. Kitchen chemistry. Removing the water content concentrates the flavor just like similar items such as orange zest. You use relatively small amounts of orange zest, but if using orange juice for flavor, you use a lot more of it due to cooking off the water.

The thing with dried herbs is that they lose flavor due to light and air exposure over time so if not used in a timely manner, will not provide good flavor. For this reason I keep basil and oregano as house plants since so usr those two herbs a lot. Dried garlic lasts a long time and tastes way better than garlic powder which loses potency fairly quickly under exposure so I keep dried garlic bulbs around, and in the back of the cupboard so their flavor lasts longer.

[GoVanGogh]

I am not a pastry chef, but long time herbal enthusiast, blog about herbs, etc. That has always been the standard recommendation. I will say it depends on the herb/spice and the taste preferences. Also, fresh herbs are added near the very end of cooking, if possible. (Like a pasta sauce or soup. This obviously doesn’t work in a casserole like lasagne or in a baked pastry.) 

[sheryl]

5 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Do not triple the nutmeg or cloves! This is just for leaves that shrivel a lot when dried. Even then you want to taste because the fries will be more concentrated but fresh can have so much more flavor that it almost evens out. And some herbs, like sage, can overpower a dish if you go nuts with it. 

Yes, a lot is personal preference.  I'm most interested in knowing about freshly ground cinnamon.  If 1 t bottled is used for pie, then do I triple for freshly ground cinnamon?

[sheryl]

30 minutes ago, Dianthus said:

Dried herbs are more condensed so stronger flavor than fresh containing water which is why you need more fresh than dried.

You don't use more of freshly ground nutmeg or cinnamon sticks. They are already dry.

Is there an equivalent rule?  Yes, more for fresh because they aren't concentrated so would you double or what?  Dried oregano 1 t would be what for fresh, chopped/minced?

[sheryl]

7 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I am not a chef, but Dianthus is correct. Kitchen chemistry. Removing the water content concentrates the flavor just like similar items such as orange zest. You use relatively small amounts of orange zest, but if using orange juice for flavor, you use a lot more of it due to cooking off the water.

The thing with dried herbs is that they lose flavor due to light and air exposure over time so if not used in a timely manner, will not provide good flavor. For this reason I keep basil and oregano as house plants since so usr those two herbs a lot. Dried garlic lasts a long time and tastes way better than garlic powder which loses potency fairly quickly under exposure so I keep dried garlic bulbs around, and in the back of the cupboard so their flavor lasts longer.

So with you here!  I use a ton of basil, oregano and garlic among other things.   Eat Mediterranean a bit.  Yes, I'm aware of light, air exposure, etc.  Just need to know if there is an equivalent so to speak of fresh vs. dried.

[sheryl]

5 minutes ago, GoVanGogh said:

I am not a pastry chef, but long time herbal enthusiast, blog about herbs, etc. That has always been the standard recommendation. I will say it depends on the herb/spice and the taste preferences. Also, fresh herbs are added near the very end of cooking, if possible. (Like a pasta sauce or soup. This obviously doesn’t work in a casserole like lasagne or in a baked pastry.) 

What is standard rec?   Well, I would like to know about cinnamon, nutmeg, peppercorns, garlic (from bulbs), basil, oregano, etc....

[Dianthus]

The rule is 1/3 dried of what recipes call for fresh. So if recipe calls for 3 tsp fresh, you would use 1 tsp dried. I have no idea about dried ground herbs because I don't use them but you can easily Google this for ratios.

[sheryl]

Just now, Dianthus said:

The rule is 1/3 dried of what recipes call for fresh. So if recipe calls for 3 tsp fresh, you would use 1 tsp dried. I have no idea about dried ground herbs because I don't use them but you can easily Google this for ratios.

OK, I appreciate that.  So, the converse - if a recipe calls for 1 t. dried then you would triple for fresh?  Is that true for cinnamon?  Or, herbs?  Both?

[Dianthus]

Cinnamon or nutmeg or pepper, use the same quantity for freshly ground. It is still dry so the same volume but you'll have better flavor freshly ground. Does that make sense?

[Dianthus]

You're talking spices vs herbs which is different.

[KungFuPanda]

11 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Yes, a lot is personal preference.  I'm most interested in knowing about freshly ground cinnamon.  If 1 t bottled is used for pie, then do I triple for freshly ground cinnamon?

I’d say no because freshly ground cinnamon will have MORE flavor

[KungFuPanda]

Just now, Dianthus said:

You're talking spices vs herbs which is different.

THIS. Don’t do it for spices. The fresh will be stronger. 

[Innisfree]

Just now, sheryl said:

OK, I appreciate that.  So, the converse - if a recipe calls for 1 t. dried then you would triple for fresh?  Is that true for cinnamon?  Or, herbs?  Both?

Do you actually have access to fresh cinnamon? I’ve never seen that for sale. If you’re thinking about grinding cinnamon sticks, it’s still dry, so the amount isn’t changed. We’ve always grated nutmeg immediately before using it, but just like the cinnamon, it’s all dry already. I think the flavor is a bit better, but we don’t change the quantity. That wouldn’t work well.

[sheryl]

2 minutes ago, Dianthus said:

Cinnamon or nutmeg or pepper, use the same quantity for freshly ground. It is still dry so the same volume but you'll have better flavor freshly ground. Does that make sense?

Yes!  Thanks!

1 minute ago, Dianthus said:

You're talking spices vs herbs which is different.

Yes, hence the name of title.  I'm interested in the answer for BOTH spices and herbs.   So, it boils down to dry vs. wet?

[sheryl]

2 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I’d say no because freshly ground cinnamon will have MORE flavor

OK.  Thanks! So, the same 1 t cinnamon for bottled ground vs. freshly ground.  

[sheryl]

2 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

THIS. Don’t do it for spices. The fresh will be stronger. 

OK, so same amount of SPICE b/t bottled and fresh.  But, triple the amount of fresh herbs to dried.  Is that right?

[sheryl]

3 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

Do you actually have access to fresh cinnamon? I’ve never seen that for sale. If you’re thinking about grinding cinnamon sticks, it’s still dry, so the amount isn’t changed. We’ve always grated nutmeg immediately before using it, but just like the cinnamon, it’s all dry already. I think the flavor is a bit better, but we don’t change the quantity. That wouldn’t work well.

Sure, have been buying fresh cinnamon for years.  I've been hand zesting the cinnamon which takes a LONG time (cassia).  But, I found the quills the other day and put those in the grinder.  So much better it's not even funny and the grinder can do the work in a minute.  LOL!  So, I buy the sticks/quills and grind in to fresh cinnamon.  Same with nutmeg but I'll still hand zest as it takes 10 seconds (easy) for 1 t.  

[KungFuPanda]

7 minutes ago, sheryl said:

OK.  Thanks! So, the same 1 t cinnamon for bottled ground vs. freshly ground.  

Right

[Dianthus]

7 minutes ago, sheryl said:

OK, so same amount of SPICE b/t bottled and fresh.  But, triple the amount of fresh herbs to dried.  Is that right?

Yes.

Except for herbs, if you use dried ground oregano, for example, that's different from dried oregano leaf. The ratio is of 1:3 is for dried leaf not ground leaf.

[Faith-manor]

Ya'll, I was given a gorgeous mortar and pestle, and I have to say, it is one of my favorite things in the kitchen.

[sheryl]

1 minute ago, Dianthus said:

Yes.

Except for herbs, if you use dried ground oregano, for example, that's different from dried oregano leaf. The ratio is of 1:3 is for dried leaf not ground leaf.

Do you have a link? I've googled but can't find what I'm looking for.  

So, in your example, oregano bottled is dried leaf, minced-like.  But there is oregano ground.  

[sheryl]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

Ya'll, I was given a gorgeous mortar and pestle, and I have to say, it is one of my favorite things in the kitchen.

I like my mortar and pestle too.  I have one but don't use it.   ??  Should pull it out and use it for some things.  For other things I'll use my electric grinder.  

[Dianthus]

1 minute ago, sheryl said:

Do you have a link? I've googled but can't find what I'm looking for.  

So, in your example, oregano bottled is dried leaf, minced-like.  But there is oregano ground.  

Ground looks like powder. I don't use that so not sure. I think it's 1/4 of fresh but not sure.

[sheryl]

9 minutes ago, Dianthus said:

Ground looks like powder. I don't use that so not sure. I think it's 1/4 of fresh but not sure.

Well, sometimes I use fresh garlic and still add a dash of dried garlic.  Mostly I don't do that but here and there.  Thanks!  

[GoVanGogh]

2 hours ago, sheryl said:

Sure, have been buying fresh cinnamon for years.  I've been hand zesting the cinnamon which takes a LONG time (cassia).  But, I found the quills the other day and put those in the grinder.  So much better it's not even funny and the grinder can do the work in a minute.  LOL!  So, I buy the sticks/quills and grind in to fresh cinnamon.  Same with nutmeg but I'll still hand zest as it takes 10 seconds (easy) for 1 t.  

Oh my goodness. Where? In states or overseas? I have been eyeing buying the plant and growing it, just so I can have fresh. 

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, GoVanGogh said:

Oh my goodness. Where? In states or overseas? I have been eyeing buying the plant and growing it, just so I can have fresh. 

Yes, this! You must spill how you are getting it so we can live vicariously through the OP or go find it ourselves! 😀

[sheryl]

24 minutes ago, GoVanGogh said:

Oh my goodness. Where? In states or overseas? I have been eyeing buying the plant and growing it, just so I can have fresh. 

Oh, no, not the plant.  I buy the quills packaged.

[sheryl]

19 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Yes, this! You must spill how you are getting it so we can live vicariously through the OP or go find it ourselves! 😀

LOL, I buy the quills (ceylon) packaged.  Stopped buying cassia.

[Faith-manor]

3 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Oh, no, not the plant.  I buy the quills packaged.

Okay, I have ground Ceylon here. I don use cassia anymore either except in stick form when making seasonal decorations. It never occurred to me to look for the quills. Thanks!

[GoVanGogh]

4 hours ago, sheryl said:

LOL, I buy the quills (ceylon) packaged.  Stopped buying cassia.

And where do you find the quills? I live in large metro area and have never seen them. 
 

Logee’s has the plant, though I have also seen at a local nursery. 
https://www.logees.com/cinnamon-cinnamomum-zeylanicum.html

[prairiewindmomma]

Also, just taste what you are making. 🙂  It sounds like you are making pie filling—it’s super easy to just dip a spoon and see if you have the balance right.

[sheryl]

3 hours ago, GoVanGogh said:

And where do you find the quills? I live in large metro area and have never seen them. 
 

Logee’s has the plant, though I have also seen at a local nursery. 
https://www.logees.com/cinnamon-cinnamomum-zeylanicum.html

Well, that's interesting.  I wonder how it would grow in the US.  The ceylon cinnamon is native to Sri Lanka.  I buy mine at the ethnic stores.  When I saw the packaged quills I was thrilled.   

2 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Also, just taste what you are making. 🙂  It sounds like you are making pie filling—it’s super easy to just dip a spoon and see if you have the balance right.

You are correct.  And, yes, I do sample taste test but I'm seeking answers here for a "starting" point.  It seems from the replies above, it's 1:1 so 1 t. bottled to 1 t. freshly ground.  I always use a bit more cinnamon but I just needed to know the equivalent as my starting point.