Writing - am I overdoing it?

[EmilyGF]

DS-barely-11 is a handful to homeschool and I have a hard time recognizing what is the right expectation level.

Here's his weekly writing (composition) and language arts load:

1. IEW Fables and Fairy Tales (one lesson per week)
2. One written narration (usually 5-10 sentences) per day
3. One oral narration per day
4. IEW Fix-It grammar (one page per day)
5. Getty-Dubay handwriting (two lines per day)
6. Sequential Spelling (one lesson per day)

Am I overdoing the writing (composition)? Doing too little? Thoughts?

He types most of his work as fine motor skills are hard; he only handwrites for Fix-It, Sequential Spelling, and Getty-Dubay.

ETA: I am not concerned about the handwriting aspect, but the composition. I wasn't clear at first. Thanks!

Emily

Edited January 7, 2023 by EmilyGF

[desertflower]

Hi.

Unless you suspect some type of dyslexia, I think one oral narration per day is a bit much. Perhaps try two or three times a week?  
 

Just my two cents because I have a 10 yo too. This year I combined WWE 4 with IEW and WWE has two oral narrations per week. 

[countrymum]

My likely dyslexic 11 yr old son does the following (just for comparison no idea if I'm doing it right either)

Rod and Staff 5 usually writing about 1/2 the assignment

AAS with me 4× a week (the other day he practiced his words independently- usually orally as he almost never picks writing on his own)

1 oral narration a day

Writing is science like answering a few questions with complete sentences 1X a week

Copy Philippians for 10 min in nice handwriting and correct spelling 5X a week

I am trying to start 1 written narration a week... It is hard we've done a few

Label countries in geography drill 1x a week

1 journal entry per week

[alysee]

I have an 11yo girl who likes to write. Her weekly writing looks like this.

Written Narration - 1 paragraph - 1x a week

Writing Prompt - 1x a week - 1 to 5 paragraphs

Writing Project - 1x a week 

Copywork - 1x a week

Fix It Grammar - 4x a week

[Lori D.]

Hard to say, as 1.) every child is different, and 2.) I gauged by time and not by the lesson (which is probably not much help, as you are specifically asking about amount of actual writing by hand).

DS#2 with stealth dyslexia and big struggles with spelling, writing, and math, at age 10-12, could handle about 15-20 min. at a time for spelling and grammar work, and about 25 minutes for writing. Handwriting practice took about 5 minutes a day.

I also tweaked a lot:
- if he needed to do a whole lesson and it was too much for one day, I loop-scheduled, and would start a lesson one day and finish the next
- if he was "getting it" I would only have him do selected problems, not an entire page
- grammar was not needed every day -- we did it about 3x/week
- we did a lot of the spelling and grammar orally or on the whiteboard, which reduced handwriting fatigue
- because spelling was a struggle area, we practiced in a variety of ways -- some hand-writing practice, but a lot of visual work on the whiteboard, and a lot of oral spelling practice to increase his weak auditory-sequential brain working

 

ETA -- agreeing with @desertflower 

Daily oral narration at this age seems like overkill to me; maybe 2x/week, and use one to go over grammar points together, and use the other and spend the week transforming it into a short (5 sentence) paragraph -- break it down into bites ala IEW style (day 1 = keyword outline of 3-5 words per sentence of the paragraph; days 2-3 = transform the keyword outlines into complete sentences; day 4 = revision; day 5 = proof-editing/final copy)

Or maybe only do dictation 1x/ week and alternate -- 1 week go over grammar points together, the next week use the dictation to create a paragraph... ?? Just thinking out loud here. 😉

Edited January 6, 2023 by Lori D.

[Ting Tang]

I consider grammar, spelling, and handwriting to be separate subjects.  I would think perhaps you could eliminate the daily written narration if you are using a writing program?  I have a just-turned-11 year old son who also challenges me, to say the least.  We're using MCT right now, and I do not feel like it asks for a ton of written output.  But he does also complete spelling on a regular basis; we're less on schedule with handwriting.  I do not have it all figured out myself; I am torn on writing programs myself, so just sharing how his workload goes! 

[Lori D.]

14 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

...I would think perhaps you could eliminate the daily written narration if you are using a writing program? ...

^^ Agree. Or, don't do both on the same day -- example: do the written narration 1x/week and the writing program 4x/week

Edited January 6, 2023 by Lori D.

[lewelma]

4 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

I consider grammar, spelling, and handwriting to be separate subjects.

We did them together in the form of Dictation. It was much less bitsy, and ds could pick the book he wanted to work on, so was more engaged. 

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

We’re spending this year, 4th grade with a 9-turning-10yr old, “writing across the curriculum”.

History: Every alternate week he takes written notes from our reading on 3-4 days. Once a month he selects a day’s notes & writes a paragraph from them. 

Science: The other weeks he fills in science lab sheets & once a month completes a related writing prompt. Throughout the year he will also complete half a dozen scientist tri-fold biographies.

Literature: Quarterly, he is spending ~2wks writing & illustrating daily chapter summaries (a few sentences each) from our literature selections. The summaries are completed on small flaps & compiled into “matchbook summary” posters. He also participated in NaNoWriMo, 30min/day of creative writing through November & half of December. 

We complete one unit of each of spelling, grammar, vocabulary, & poetics annually. Spelling lasts 6-8wks & involves writing a paragraph daily. Poetics lasts a month or so & typically involves a daily poem. The other two round out the year & range from no writing to a few sentences. 

[EmilyGF]

@Ting Tang and @Lori D. about eliminating written narration if doing a writing program (IEW): IEW seems like... so little compared to what I've done with the narrate-every-reading mindset.

@lewelma I have tried dictation with this kid, but he really hated the open-ended aspect of it and felt like he was never good enough or finished. He loves having workbooks that define what finished is. That's also why we are doing IEW; there is a rubric that defines "done" and "excellent."

I have kids who range over such a huge spectrum that it is hard to know what reasonable or normal is.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Ting Tang]

2 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

@Ting Tang and @Lori D. about eliminating written narration if doing a writing program (IEW): IEW seems like... so little compared to what I've done with the narrate-every-reading mindset.

@lewelma I have tried dictation with this kid, but he really hated the open-ended aspect of it and felt like he was never good enough or finished. He loves having workbooks that define what finished is. That's also why we are doing IEW; there is a rubric that defines "done" and "excellent."

I have kids who range over such a huge spectrum that it is hard to know what reasonable or normal is.

Thanks for the help.

 

I understand! I am not totally familiar with IEW. I have looked at it in the past.  I'd say you could drop that, except you have a child who it might work well for.  I honestly wonder if we are doing enough this year. 

[Ting Tang]

13 hours ago, lewelma said:

We did them together in the form of Dictation. It was much less bitsy, and ds could pick the book he wanted to work on, so was more engaged. 

I've considered that for my son, who is in 5th. We briefly tried it, but I wasn't very confident it would get the job done. We've been using Rod & Staff because I thought him learning by sound and structure (phonics) might help.  Spelling is a weaker area for him, and he never really had formal phonics in learning to read.  I still wonder if dictation might work better.  

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

13 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I honestly wonder if we are doing enough this year. 

I feel like every single homeschooler I’ve spoken to who is dealing with the 4th-5th grade age group is concerned they’re doing either too much or too little composition. 😅

[Ting Tang]

24 minutes ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

I feel like every single homeschooler I’ve spoken to who is dealing with the 4th-5th grade age group is concerned they’re doing either too much or too little composition. 😅

It's the whole pending middle school time frame...lol  I'm so torn on using MCT next year.  I like it but feel like sometimes it lacks the magic I'd like for him before he gets too old for it...  The writing and literature in Voyage concern me.

 

[Lori D.]

8 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

...about eliminating written narration if doing a writing program (IEW): IEW seems like... so little compared to what I've done with the narrate-every-reading mindset...

If what you are doing is working -- if it is age/skill appropriate for this particular child so that it is not overloading DS and it is meeting your goals -- then no need to change anything. 😄

We're just providing ideas in case it's too much for your DS, but we don't know him or your goals the way you do. 😄 

 

Just adding that at some point (usually late middle school/early high school, depending on the student), narration has played its part in helping to lay a foundation for writing, and other types of writing, such as analytical and argumentative writing, become the focus. Just having turned 11yo is probably young for these other types of "thinking-writing", but eventually you transition out of practicing with the foundation-laying tool of narration and transition into the more complex "thinking" types of writing.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Lori D.

[lulalu]

A written and an oral narration a day would be too much for us with an additional writing curriculum. I would alternate between written and oral each day. But I think the rest is in the range of normal to expect of a child this age. 

[Momto6inIN]

We don't do oral narration or handwriting practice anymore, but other than that it's pretty much exactly what my 10 almost 11 year old 5th grader does daily. The written narration is based on her history reading for the day.

[keirin]

My 11 year old twins are in 6th grade this year, and we do:

- 1-5 paragraphs a week with The Paragraph series from EPS OR Lantern English assignment (we are finishing their The Narrative class right now, then will switch back to EPS The Paragraph book 3, and may come back and do 1 more Lantern English in Q4). Usually, my son will choose to do the bare minimum, so if I say 1 paragraph that is what he does. My daughter will write as much as she likes, and it often is at least 3-4 paragraphs.

-4 pages of Fix-It grammar each week

-Section review for Science (typed, I make a Google form from the questions at the end of the chapter)

-Phonetic zoo for spelling 3-4 times a week

-Memoria Press 2nd Form latin worksheets pretty much daily, except on quiz days

 

I think we're maybe doing less than others, but I'm pretty happy with it since I see progress and the ability to write a coherent essay from them when asked.